WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck" — Guild Wars 2 Forums

WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck"

Whirling Defensehttps: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense

The main problem regarding Whirling Defense is the "sitting duck" stance. It is the only skill of it kind who make the player to be a sitting duck. Other classes can move when they do similar skill. Also the area for this one it is only 150 units. Every time the enemies just move 2 steps and then they just are looking at you how you spin like a fool ... almost they laugh on the whole period of your spinning. After you finish this show/spectacle (we must mention that we can't stop doing this ... the only way is to waste a dodge or another skill) they walk gentle near you and start again what they did before you use WD.
I must mention that even when you put down someone with WD, you can't stomp him till the skill didn't get his whole spinning, again you must wait or use a dodge (in this way you move away of your downed enemy) or another skill and after that you can stomp him ... ofc if the enemy is still there.

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Comments

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Okay, you are right about the skill being bad. But I still think you can make it work as it is. Of course it would be better if you were able to move while casting it. I don't think anybody can argue about that. I say it would be too strong if you were able to move with it since you can already make the skill decent by combining it with other utilities. If you were able to move with it you could make it god tier with said other utilities.

    Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

    We could probably take this discussion to infinity and beyond. This may just be a case of personal opinion.

    Hey man these are what forums are for ;p. (Feel free to argue back I don't take it personally I like discussing and thinking of new ways to approach problems)

    And if I seem dushy about my reply it's more borne out of me trying to make it work for literally years now. (Especially since I have a viking ish theme going on now) I've tried it again and again and again and find it just shut down completely.

    My wish is that ranger has lots of different tools in the box, not one strong op build. This not only gives the game more flavor, but gives me a tool for different situations. (While I'm a pvxer I scew wy more towards PvP and roaming wvw so I view everything through that lense) i rather have a world where if I'm going against this I want this.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.
    You can always cancel the skill by stowing your weapon.

    If you have a hard time utilizing Whirling Defense try it after you stun your enemy, with a GS or Shortbow for example or after a pull like your 4th skill on Offhand Axe, after a knockdown with the Gazelles F2 or Smokescales Beastmode F1 or while your enemy is immobilzed, maybe with the Druids "Ancient Seeds" or with your "Entangle" Elite skill.
    In some cases that won't be enough, but since you got quite a few ways to gain quickness as a ranger you should add that into the combo. Maybe cast a Quickening Zephir while you start to cast the Whirling Defense or swap your pet (Bristleback F2 into the Whirling Defenses kills most enemies in PvP/WvW) to trigger Zephyr's Speed.
    Using it with "One Wolf Pack", the Soulbeasts Elite, and/or "Sic' Em!" in Beastmode can boost the damage even more.

    There are a few ways to use the skill effeciently, but sometimes you can only use it as one of the best downstate cleaves in the game. It is not an easy to utilize skill, but if you can make it work it does its job very good. Just learn when to use it, don't spam it into enemies that are mobile and make sure to cancel it before you root yourself into a nuke.

    Ranger is about combining utilities and using them at the right time!
    I hope I can help a bit with this post.

    I don't want to join your salty game ... so I try to not respond to your salty answer or advises ...
    1. But I can tell you that now all classes have the abilities to get out from a stun, and even with a stun at least half of your WD damage will be waste.
    2. When you make an advise , please remember that a player can't be in the same time Druid, Soulbeast or have whole skills of all weapons or have whole traits from all traits line.
    3. Whirling Axe from warrior is very powerful too, the difference is he can move.
    But this post is not about how to use it or theory crafting about what you should do to make it work ... because in real fight in most of the situation this didn't work ... due to the fact this one is very predictable (like Worldly Impact) and the fact every class can easily get out from stun using breaking stun skill, teleport etc ...

    PS: when I said didn't work I mean not full damage, but 15-50% ... sometimes less ... in mean time enemy can heal, or do anything ...

  • Kiroshima.8497Kiroshima.8497 Member ✭✭✭

    Instead of blocking projectiles, it should just be a full block outside of melee range (about 180 or so). So you have to take the damage from the axes in order to do hits to the ranger. Or if you want to interrupt, it has to be a melee interrupt.

    That would make it a great whirling defense and an interesting defensive alternative to dagger (which is also awkward).

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @panekomo.7146 said:

    Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

    Why Warrior Whirling Axe is not "very fitting" for rangers? Rly I don't see why ... Maybe Rapid Fire and all our skills should be done without allow us to move ? It will fitted more the ranger ? We are not that class who should kite all the time ? Doesen't mean this that most of our skills (only Barrage could be an exception because is for a fix point area) should allow us to move in the same time we use it ?
    This opinion sounds exactly like other one ... that Longbow is not rly suit Ranger

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Just learn when to use it, don't spam it into enemies that are mobile and make sure to cancel it before you root yourself into a nuke.
    Ranger is about combining utilities and using them at the right time!
    I hope I can help a bit with this post.

    Because of this I said you are salty in your comment. For your knowledge I played all the build ... I am not a new player and I know how to use WD like I know how to use everything on and with Soulbeast, but this doesn't mean we still don't have a huge list with all kind of things who should be fixed or changed. So next time when you want to write like you did above, please don't do it.

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

    No, it wouldn't be "way too strong".

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

    With a "hefty dps Nerf" it would not be fantastic for cleaves. I mean, do you want to cleave just for the sake of it, while hitting like a wet noodle?

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @panekomo.7146 said:

    Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

    Why Warrior Whirling Axe is not "very fitting" for rangers? Rly I don't see why ... Maybe Rapid Fire and all our skills should be done without allow us to move ? It will fitted more the ranger ? We are not that class who should kite all the time ? Doesen't mean this that most of our skills (only Barrage could be an exception because is for a fix point area) should allow us to move in the same time we use it ?
    This opinion sounds exactly like other one ... that Longbow is not rly suit Ranger

    Moving while casting barrage would actually be pretty sweet though. I would use LB in PvE again.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Moving while casting barrage would actually be pretty sweet though. I would use LB in PvE again.

    Idd, but they (Anet) must manage too many things ... after you point the target on the ground ... if you move too far of that point (more than 1500) what should happen ? the cercle area should come to you? or your shooting it will stop ? and if we get this , Elementalist will ask that they could move when use Meteor Shower too :) .

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I almost don't even understand why rooting skills exist in a game entirely based on movement. If a skill is going to root you it should be because the effect is so ridiculously grandiose it needs massive drawbacks to even exist, and uh... axe5 is not that. The original meteor shower, sure, root. Axe5? :s

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2018

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

    Like @InsaneQR.7412 already explained to you, Whirling Axe do lets say the same damage and you need 1-2 dodge to avoid it or you should use a skill with leap (in front, side or back) it's not like in WD situation when enemy should just walk 3 steps and that's it , they are safe ...
    I don't mind if WD don't allow us to move but instead give us let's say Aegis ... Because when you are a sitting duck target , retaliation is almost good for nothing.
    I am agree that WD is strong, do a lot of damage and it is useful in combat, that's why I use it in sPVP and WvW, but you will hit only non experienced players or those who are too focused on something else than your actions.

  • @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Another option would be to give it a fulltime block. So its basically similar to herald shield. But instead of healing you do dmg. Would make it strong in PvP and PvE and still would provide some nice counter play if the attacks are unblockable or if the enemy as you already said just dodges outwards and waits for the skill to end.

    >

    Agree

  • Wondrouswall.7169Wondrouswall.7169 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Another option would be to give it a fulltime block. So its basically similar to herald shield. But instead of healing you do dmg. Would make it strong in PvP and PvE and still would provide some nice counter play if the attacks are unblockable or if the enemy as you already said just dodges outwards and waits for the skill to end.

    :+1:

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • OneYenShort.3189OneYenShort.3189 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    I almost don't even understand why rooting skills exist in a game entirely based on movement. If a skill is going to root you it should be because the effect is so ridiculously grandiose it needs massive drawbacks to even exist, and uh... axe5 is not that. The original meteor shower, sure, root. Axe5? :s

    Because the game is all about the joy of movement. Don't you remember how they were advertising mounts?

  • DuckDuckBOOM.4097DuckDuckBOOM.4097 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:

    @panekomo.7146 said:
    Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

    No it wouldn't.
    Whirling axes of warrior hits 15x with a base power of 3075 and a power coefficient of 8.3.
    Whirling defense on the other hand hits 12x with a base power of 2904 and a coefficient of 7.92 .

    If we consider that both skills should be equal and that the dmg difference is made up via the utility of WD then bith skills should be able to move.
    For PvE its QoL and for PvP it does not even matter because you are still a big target for AoEs and such matters.

    It has nothing to do with Git Gud and such things if you have to cancel it when you see a fluffy redfield under you midcast. Its annoying and missing QoL i would like to see on this skill, because its more than often just cancel fodder.

    Warrior axe 5 doesn't apply 12 vulnerability and reflect projectiles. So damage difference wise, the vuln has a bit of a wind up but it ends up doing same damage if it finishes channeling while enhancing the dmg of yourself, pet and team. Vuln matters less in PvE but PvE has bigger problems than axe 5: weak ranger sword/GS autoattacks that need buffs/PvE splits. Reflect is also huge utility and potentially huge damage too. It's not fair to ignore that utility and the pet and only compare raw coefficients. To be clear, I'm no against movement being added (maybe something like 50% reduced speed like guardian gs2) but not at the cost of reduced damage or blocking instead of reflecting.

    I play a glassy s/a+lb SB. I have no real stability/sustain and lb3 stealth isn't going to save me from some insane cleave at downed bodies. If I need to secure a kill after downing someone with lb, axe 5 (sometimes Sic'em) can be amazing. Warrior, rev, and engi downed skill 1 and 2 are projectiles and thief bouncing downed auto is great to reflect (they don't realize it and/or can't hit stow weapon to cancel the auto). I've wiped 2-3 people out with a single axe4/5 combo when only 1 person was initially downed because the downed people kill their allies with reflects while I manage to hit 20-30k on the channel. Or reflect deadeyes that thought they had the snipe on me. Don't channel axe5 and then cancel it because someone countered you. Use it when the reflect is needed to counter someone else.

    Side note on reflects, it scales off of enemy power/coeff but your crit chance/dmg, dmg modifiers and the 12 vuln it stacks. That means I reflect hard in my glassy build. I know it doesn't work for everyone but I still think it has some amazing utility/dmg that make it worth the loss of movement. Even in PvP, my problem with axe 5 is that I still need to pair it with sword. It works well for bailing me out if the axe 4/5 combo fails but I wish the sword hit harder. Or the mh dagger. I also would be ok with an immob on dagger 3. Quickness immob into axe 5. Buff the auto coeff a bit. There is nothing wrong with a strong skill that prevents movement as long as it can be better paired with another weapon.

    TLDR: I'm ok with axe 5 as is. Reflect/dmg is great. Buff main-hand dagger/sword power.

  • @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:
    Side note on reflects, it scales off of enemy power/coeff but your crit chance/dmg, dmg modifiers and the 12 vuln it stacks. That means I reflect hard in my glassy build. I know it doesn't work for everyone but I still think it has some amazing utility/dmg that make it worth the loss of movement. Even in PvP, my problem with axe 5 is that I still need to pair it with sword. It works well for bailing me out if the axe 4/5 combo fails but I wish the sword hit harder. Or the mh dagger. I also would be ok with an immob on dagger 3. Quickness immob into axe 5. Buff the auto coeff a bit. There is nothing wrong with a strong skill that prevents movement as long as it can be better paired with another weapon.

    TLDR: I'm ok with axe 5 as is. Reflect/dmg is great. Buff main-hand dagger/sword power.

    Nobody said that WD don't has a very good damage and the fact you wiped 2-3 people in a single axe4/5 means they didn't know how to play properly. I am sure that if you meet a good player usual you can't catch him with whole 12 hits, maybe only if it is a group fight on a node and there is hard to see every one what skill they are using.
    The fact you are using glass cannon build in sPVP for me means that you die pretty fast and often ... because these days sPVP is not for glass cannon builds, only in unranked or low ranked area.
    Don't get me wrong ... you can play for fun glass cannon in sPVP and do some imba kills, but overall glass cannon build will not help you to lvl up your rank or help enough your team.
    Back to WD ... I use it too, because it is idd very powerful when you hit someone, just I saying it is hard in sPVP when you fight vs good players to catch them and do full damage.
    I don't know ... just I don't like to be sitting duck target :) ... I like to move all the time.
    PS: when you are on a node and a Scourge put everything on the ground, you WD will do nothing ... you will die way faster because of his condi damage than your reflect :)

  • Arrys.7145Arrys.7145 Member ✭✭

    The sitting duck nature of the skill somewhat puts its use outside the overall philosophy of their split skill changes. "Passive skills make the game less skillful. The ranger becomes a powerless observer the moment they click the button and cannot use the ability skillfully as a moving shield and ball of damage. Opposing players simply have to move slightly.

    In PvE the skill isn't a problem AI stacks, human players simply side step and continue.

    If their high level goal is to reduce passivity whirling defense is as passive as it gets and should be targetted for treatment..

    Granted this is passive slightly differently to how they meant it but I think from a players perspective suffers the same factor of lack of skill enjoyment.

    "High Level Goals
    Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

    Passive skills make the game less skillful.
    The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)
    Increase build diversity

    By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.
    Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

    Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have."

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    @panekomo.7146 no I agree with dragon hunterz. Whirling being a long casting root is so supceptable to getting counterplayed. It worked fine in the pre hot era. But as a root it sets you up for easy counterplay. (Don't get me wrong I like skills that have counter plays to em, but when everyone has a million escapes and aoe it's not good)

    Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

    This game lives and dies on mobility having it a moving skill would actually make it from trash teir to very good even if it had a a smaller radius and less damage.

    Any decent player on any class can easily counter and punish it hard.

    Guard pull,
    Ele Gale (the only ele build I've found it to work consistently against is tempest when they air overload due to the cleave and retal)
    Warrior lol pick your poison
    Theif shortbow or if dagger pistol just steal (don't even think if opening due to Bali venom
    Soulbeast merge nock back / druid stab ur pet and send it in, or skill 3 in druid form
    Necro (lolz who melees a necro just asking for marks and or shades to ruin your day)
    Mesmer manrta or well boom
    Engie once again pick your posion
    Rev staff five hell even hammer does well against it just CoR or hammer aoe cc

    Also team fights are often times just don't touch the floor lava and you can't do that with such a long channel.

    The fact that your rooted makes you easy picking for all, at least with wordly impact it's not bad with quickness and the damage is one hit not a static oh just wrek me.

    The only time I've found it useful is for cleaving downs when. You have alot of support

    even the mobile versions are supceptible to the CC listed here whats the point? Warrior's doesnt reflect, Thief's is an ultimate , does little damage reflects gives stab and superspeed.

    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

  • Darkened.4076Darkened.4076 Member ✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Kiroshima.8497 said:
    Instead of blocking projectiles, it should just be a full block outside of melee range (about 180 or so). So you have to take the damage from the axes in order to do hits to the ranger. Or if you want to interrupt, it has to be a melee interrupt.

    That would make it a great whirling defense and an interesting defensive alternative to dagger (which is also awkward).

    Love this idea - Should be patched - and with this, though still strong, it can still be countered because you can get 'unblockable' buffs for a small amount of time.

    I agree though with the above post, I would not want the damage nerf.

  • @Rezzet.3614 said:
    even the mobile versions are supceptible to the CC listed here whats the point? Warrior's doesnt reflect, Thief's is an ultimate , does little damage reflects gives stab and superspeed.

    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

    Usual (if it's not on CD) before use of WD I use Dolyak Stance. I don't use one of our powerful damage skill without stability. So that's why the point exist ;) .

    @Arrys.7145 said:
    The sitting duck nature of the skill somewhat puts its use outside the overall philosophy of their split skill changes. "Passive skills make the game less skillful. The ranger becomes a powerless observer the moment they click the button and cannot use the ability skillfully as a moving shield and ball of damage. Opposing players simply have to move slightly.

    In PvE the skill isn't a problem AI stacks, human players simply side step and continue.

    If their high level goal is to reduce passivity whirling defense is as passive as it gets and should be targetted for treatment..

    Granted this is passive slightly differently to how they meant it but I think from a players perspective suffers the same factor of lack of skill enjoyment.

    "High Level Goals
    Reduce influence of passive traits. (PvP not WvW)

    Passive skills make the game less skillful.
    The prevalence of passives is a common competitive player complaint. (PvP only)
    Increase build diversity

    By decreasing the power of some of the more dominant builds, we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.
    Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

    Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have."

    Exactly that's why I want WD to not be sitting duck .... because Anet want to reduce the influence of passive traits ... means we will be more fragile ...

  • Fluffball.8307Fluffball.8307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OneYenShort.3189 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    I almost don't even understand why rooting skills exist in a game entirely based on movement. If a skill is going to root you it should be because the effect is so ridiculously grandiose it needs massive drawbacks to even exist, and uh... axe5 is not that. The original meteor shower, sure, root. Axe5? :s

    Because the game is all about the joy of movement. Don't you remember how they were advertising mounts?

    Joy of lack of movement?

  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Eleazar.9478 said:
    @panekomo.7146 no I agree with dragon hunterz. Whirling being a long casting root is so supceptable to getting counterplayed. It worked fine in the pre hot era. But as a root it sets you up for easy counterplay. (Don't get me wrong I like skills that have counter plays to em, but when everyone has a million escapes and aoe it's not good)

    Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

    This game lives and dies on mobility having it a moving skill would actually make it from trash teir to very good even if it had a a smaller radius and less damage.

    Any decent player on any class can easily counter and punish it hard.

    Guard pull,
    Ele Gale (the only ele build I've found it to work consistently against is tempest when they air overload due to the cleave and retal)
    Warrior lol pick your poison
    Theif shortbow or if dagger pistol just steal (don't even think if opening due to Bali venom
    Soulbeast merge nock back / druid stab ur pet and send it in, or skill 3 in druid form
    Necro (lolz who melees a necro just asking for marks and or shades to ruin your day)
    Mesmer manrta or well boom
    Engie once again pick your posion
    Rev staff five hell even hammer does well against it just CoR or hammer aoe cc

    Also team fights are often times just don't touch the floor lava and you can't do that with such a long channel.

    The fact that your rooted makes you easy picking for all, at least with wordly impact it's not bad with quickness and the damage is one hit not a static oh just wrek me.

    The only time I've found it useful is for cleaving downs when. You have alot of support

    even the mobile versions are supceptible to the CC listed here whats the point? Warrior's doesnt reflect, Thief's is an ultimate , does little damage reflects gives stab and superspeed.

    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

    Ah but then you can repostion had it been moving (also why I said a dps Nerf remember it's been buffed 20% this past year)

    It's rooting will not work in any kind of PVP, maybe low gold, but rooting skills are terrible.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whirling Defenses is a moronically stacked skill atm with the only thing holding it from being broken is its self root. If they remove the root then expect that skill to get gutted; if not immediately then within 6 months of the change.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

    It is not the highest dmg skill in the game.
    If you would assume a target with 6000 armor, a power of 2000 and a weaponstrength of 1000 you would get 42'000 dmg out of whirling axes and 35'000 (and this would take 12% dmg increase of the vuln application into account)
    Note: I ignored precision for simplicity.

    So as i said above, the utility of the skill compensates for the lower dmg but not the lacking movement IMO. It wouldnt even be a real buff, rather a QoL. It still would easy to evade but atleast you can do something while waving your weapons arround like a maniac.

  • @Rezzet.3614 said:
    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

    >

    Are you joking, right ? Tell me that this was a joke ...
    Ranger wasn't, is not and I think will never be an AOE nuke ... not in PVE, sPVP or WvW. You could say ranger could be between first 3 nuke single target, but definitely not AOE. The thing with make sure the enemy get cc is another kind of joke ... ofc everyone try to cc enemy before the use of a high damage skill ... but never can make this for sure ... are enough classes who have more remove cc skills/utilities than cc skills ranger have. Yes this is the basic to try to cc before your major/main skill.

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @Rezzet.3614 said:
    ranger's is basically an aoe nuke probably the highest damaging skill in the game , make sure the enemy gets cc'd and/or use Quickness

    >

    Are you joking, right ? Tell me that this was a joke ...
    Ranger wasn't, is not and I think will never be an AOE nuke ... not in PVE, sPVP or WvW. You could say ranger could be between first 3 nuke single target, but definitely not AOE. The thing with make sure the enemy get cc is another kind of joke ... ofc everyone try to cc enemy before the use of a high damage skill ... but never can make this for sure ... are enough classes who have more remove cc skills/utilities than cc skills ranger have. Yes this is the basic to try to cc before your major/main skill.

    i did not say ranger as a whole is i said this particular skill is

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense
    Damage (12x): 2,904 (7.92)?
    Retaliation (4s): Reflect incoming damage back to its source.
    12 Vulnerability (10s): 12% Incoming Damage, 12% Incoming Condition Damage
    Duration: 5s
    Attack Radius: 180
    Reflection Radius: 150

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades

    Damage (8x): 1,864 (4.62)?
    Final strike damage: 488 (1.21)?
    Number of Targets: 3
    Range: 130

    it makes hundred blades pale in comparison, you know another skill that also roots the user in place and doesnt have full circle aoe nor reflect

    so the question is do you really want a 75% damage nerf to make it mobile ?
    then it could see more use in PvP but would be useless in PvE

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

    the diferences arent that big and in the upcomming patch warrior is getting all its 3 sustain traits nerfed to 90s cooldowns
    also ranger does have a signet and a trait that give it invulnerability as well as an elite that pulses stability fury and might

    https://imgur.com/P4cxNCJ
    Marauder

    kitten try whirling defensse with:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda's_Embrace
    or a beast fusion with CC

    hittin 30ks with the dual strike stance , got access to protection might fury invuln and stability and condi cleanse with soulbeast

    sure might not be as tanky as druid but its got potential

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

    the diferences arent that big and in the upcomming patch warrior is getting all its 3 sustain traits nerfed to 90s cooldowns
    also ranger does have a signet and a trait that give it invulnerability as well as an elite that pulses stability fury and might

    https://imgur.com/P4cxNCJ
    Marauder

    kitten try whirling defensse with:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda's_Embrace
    or a beast fusion with CC

    hittin 30ks with the dual strike stance , got access to protection might fury invuln and stability and condi cleanse with soulbeast

    sure might not be as tanky as druid but its got potential

    Did you read about changes in upcoming patch regarding ranger ? Rly I don't understand you guys ... you compare and say that class x will nerf, class y will be nerf, but you didn't realize yet what and how your class will be nerfed. And pls, don't show me anymore any pic with damage vs a dummy ... is not even close with reality ... Do you remember when someone post how big , how huge condi build Soulbeast was vs the same dummy you post it now? Guess what ... in PVP that condi build for Soulbeast didn't work at all, is garbage ... I am pretty sure that a warrior with hundred blades can do more damage than 20k on a dummy.
    Ranger nerf :
    Protective Ward: Increased the cooldown from 18 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only
    Rugged Growth: Reduced the healing power coefficient from 0.245 to 0.1225** (-50%) **in PvP and WvW
    Stoneform: Increased the cooldown from 70 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only
    Shared Anguish: Increased the cooldown from 60 seconds to 90 seconds in PvP only ....

    just saying .... so ... again, don't make only half comparison ... it's not like warrior will get nerf and some how the balance will be restored ... NO! because also ranger will get big nerf

    PS: I made a fast test with warrior on that dumy and I did 20.7k with hundred blades and 23 k with Whirling Axe with only 10 Might ... and remember Whirling Axe allow me to move ! ;)

  • Krispera.5087Krispera.5087 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    You can't really compare Whirling Defense and Hundred Blades. Hundred Blades DO more damage than Whirling Defense, you just did a comparison on damage, when you didn't take in consideration the cooldown in the calculations. You can do 3 Hundred Blades in a whole Whirling Defense cooldown. Actually, it shows even further that Whirling Defense needs something more.

    I like the idea of Block in the whole channelling of Whirling Defense. It will give S/A a ''Counterattack''.

    OH Axe is barely used in any modes and it can't even give us enough damage to be Power DPS in instances. Any ideas are welcomed at this point.

  • @Krispera.5087 said:
    You can't really compare Whirling Defense and Hundred Blades. Hundred Blades DO more damage than Whirling Defense, you just did a comparison on damage, when you didn't take in consideration the cooldown in the calculations. You can do 3 Hundred Blades in a whole Whirling Defense cooldown. Actually, it shows even further that Whirling Defense needs something more.

    Thx for this ... I miss the fact you can use hundred blades 3 times in 1 CD of Whirling Defense ... good point.

  • DuckDuckBOOM.4097DuckDuckBOOM.4097 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

    the diferences arent that big and in the upcomming patch warrior is getting all its 3 sustain traits nerfed to 90s cooldowns
    also ranger does have a signet and a trait that give it invulnerability as well as an elite that pulses stability fury and might

    https://imgur.com/P4cxNCJ
    Marauder

    kitten try whirling defensse with:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda's_Embrace
    or a beast fusion with CC

    hittin 30ks with the dual strike stance , got access to protection might fury invuln and stability and condi cleanse with soulbeast

    sure might not be as tanky as druid but its got potential

    Not glassy enough ^^
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/410093#Comment_410093
    https://imgur.com/a/6AR58
    I've hit 40k WD a few times with that build WITHOUT OWP. That doesn't include the reflect damage or the fact that I was also cleaving other people.

    @Dragonzhunter.8506
    I used to care about maintaining plat 2 rank. I actually did that mostly as a pvp necro main. It was funny seeing so many druids use staff 5 to try and counter my scepter auto: I am very aware that necro has almost nothing to reflect. Then I stopped caring about rank and just have fun in unranked/wvw.

    Regardless of rank or unranked, when it comes to scourges, why would I swap to axe on point? I camp longbow and kill them without them hitting me. Smokescale F2/1/3 combo if I end up close to them. If I swap to s/a vs a scourge it's to sword 2 away from a fight that isn't working. If I was actually trying in ranked instead of yolo 1 shotting people, I'd go MM, WS, SB. I'd still camp longbow vs scourge but if needed, axe4, cast bear stance to pulse condi clear and proc muddy terrain for a 3 second immob+cover condi and then WD. That would kill most scourges without them being able to run away.

    When I land those huge WD combos, I don't die after casting it. Enemy is low/downed from LB. Axe4 to interrupt a res and potentially down someone already. There isn't an invulnerable gap when someone gets downed anymore. Time the axe 5 right and the first few hits down, next few hit them as they transition to downed and then I full on cleave 2 ppl dead when axe 5 finishes channeling. I've seen both good and bad players die to this because I time it right.

    As for all the new balance stuff, the signet of stone change is a buff to my build. None of the nerfs affect me since I'm glass. However, I do see a ton of sustain nerfs to builds I can already kill. If I were to take pvp seriously again, I stand by axe 5 not being the problem. Sword/mh dagger need to better support the use of the offhands. Even torch 5 has the same problem of ppl moving away. Example sword 3: evade behind your target. If you hit them in back, immob them for 3 seconds. They aren't facing you so they can't turn around and melee interrupt you. Trait striders offense for some quickness too. Wreck them with WD.

  • Dragonzhunter.8506Dragonzhunter.8506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2018

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

    the diferences arent that big and in the upcomming patch warrior is getting all its 3 sustain traits nerfed to 90s cooldowns
    also ranger does have a signet and a trait that give it invulnerability as well as an elite that pulses stability fury and might

    https://imgur.com/P4cxNCJ
    Marauder

    kitten try whirling defensse with:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda's_Embrace
    or a beast fusion with CC

    hittin 30ks with the dual strike stance , got access to protection might fury invuln and stability and condi cleanse with soulbeast

    sure might not be as tanky as druid but its got potential

    Not glassy enough ^^
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/410093#Comment_410093
    https://imgur.com/a/6AR58
    I've hit 40k WD a few times with that build WITHOUT OWP. That doesn't include the reflect damage or the fact that I was also cleaving other people.

    @Dragonzhunter.8506
    I used to care about maintaining plat 2 rank. I actually did that mostly as a pvp necro main. It was funny seeing so many druids use staff 5 to try and counter my scepter auto: I am very aware that necro has almost nothing to reflect. Then I stopped caring about rank and just have fun in unranked/wvw.

    Regardless of rank or unranked, when it comes to scourges, why would I swap to axe on point? I camp longbow and kill them without them hitting me. Smokescale F2/1/3 combo if I end up close to them. If I swap to s/a vs a scourge it's to sword 2 away from a fight that isn't working. If I was actually trying in ranked instead of yolo 1 shotting people, I'd go MM, WS, SB. I'd still camp longbow vs scourge but if needed, axe4, cast bear stance to pulse condi clear and proc muddy terrain for a 3 second immob+cover condi and then WD. That would kill most scourges without them being able to run away.

    When I land those huge WD combos, I don't die after casting it. Enemy is low/downed from LB. Axe4 to interrupt a res and potentially down someone already. There isn't an invulnerable gap when someone gets downed anymore. Time the axe 5 right and the first few hits down, next few hit them as they transition to downed and then I full on cleave 2 ppl dead when axe 5 finishes channeling. I've seen both good and bad players die to this because I time it right.

    As for all the new balance stuff, the signet of stone change is a buff to my build. None of the nerfs affect me since I'm glass. However, I do see a ton of sustain nerfs to builds I can already kill. If I were to take pvp seriously again, I stand by axe 5 not being the problem. Sword/mh dagger need to better support the use of the offhands. Even torch 5 has the same problem of ppl moving away. Example sword 3: evade behind your target. If you hit them in back, immob them for 3 seconds. They aren't facing you so they can't turn around and melee interrupt you. Trait striders offense for some quickness too. Wreck them with WD.

    You can't play glass cannon Soulbeast in Ranked sPVP. The fact you said that you were in plat 2 rank playing necro. Soulbeast glass cannon build it's only for fun in sPVP and can be playable only in Unranked where you don't care about winning a match, but only kills etc. Ofc there are some situations when your team is strong and you can be the damage dealer on your team, but this is like a gamble. If you want to be competitive in sPVP ranked you definitely should not play glass cannon.
    I am agree that almost none of the nerf affected you ... (even this is wrong, because using Survival traits line, even now, you benefit from those traits who gives you atm healing or transfer disables , even you are in zerk gear) ... will not affect your damage, but still you will die faster than you do now.
    I didn't say vs Scourge you should use S/Axe, I mentioned that if you want to win you must go out of the point and play range ... with LB ofc.
    You can't compare torch 5 with axe 5 ... two weapons used in 2 totally different builds ... condi and power. Torch has a ground area and is a combo field, it should be like it is now, like all combo filed are (almost ... because are some like Rejuvenating Tides is mobile one ). Also you can't compare Barrage with WD , because first is range second is melee, and Ranger usual is a range class with less ability for melee fight (regarding defense) than Warrior, Revenant or Guardian (I know you didn't compare Barrage with WD, but your example was the same worst).

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

    @DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:

    @Rezzet.3614 said:

    @Dragonzhunter.8506 said:
    @Rezzet.3614 , No, you don't make this kind of comparison ... because internal mechanic and class buffs etc could make (and I think it is in this situation) a class skill more powerful than another class skill, even the description of skills say something else. In my opinion Hundred Blades do more damage than Whirling Defense. And I think you should compare Whirling Axe with Whirling Defense. In the same time ... REMEMBER we talk about 2 different classes ... Warrior with berserker gear can be a sitting duck target for a long time because of his internal and skills defense stats , in the same time Ranger with berserker gear will die at the end of the WD skill :) .
    When you compare 2 skills from 2 different classes have in mind that one is tanky even in zerk gear and the other is not ... ;)

    the diferences arent that big and in the upcomming patch warrior is getting all its 3 sustain traits nerfed to 90s cooldowns
    also ranger does have a signet and a trait that give it invulnerability as well as an elite that pulses stability fury and might

    https://imgur.com/P4cxNCJ
    Marauder

    kitten try whirling defensse with:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jacaranda's_Embrace
    or a beast fusion with CC

    hittin 30ks with the dual strike stance , got access to protection might fury invuln and stability and condi cleanse with soulbeast

    sure might not be as tanky as druid but its got potential

    Not glassy enough ^^
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/410093#Comment_410093
    https://imgur.com/a/6AR58
    I've hit 40k WD a few times with that build WITHOUT OWP. That doesn't include the reflect damage or the fact that I was also cleaving other people.

    @Dragonzhunter.8506
    I used to care about maintaining plat 2 rank. I actually did that mostly as a pvp necro main. It was funny seeing so many druids use staff 5 to try and counter my scepter auto: I am very aware that necro has almost nothing to reflect. Then I stopped caring about rank and just have fun in unranked/wvw.

    Regardless of rank or unranked, when it comes to scourges, why would I swap to axe on point? I camp longbow and kill them without them hitting me. Smokescale F2/1/3 combo if I end up close to them. If I swap to s/a vs a scourge it's to sword 2 away from a fight that isn't working. If I was actually trying in ranked instead of yolo 1 shotting people, I'd go MM, WS, SB. I'd still camp longbow vs scourge but if needed, axe4, cast bear stance to pulse condi clear and proc muddy terrain for a 3 second immob+cover condi and then WD. That would kill most scourges without them being able to run away.

    When I land those huge WD combos, I don't die after casting it. Enemy is low/downed from LB. Axe4 to interrupt a res and potentially down someone already. There isn't an invulnerable gap when someone gets downed anymore. Time the axe 5 right and the first few hits down, next few hit them as they transition to downed and then I full on cleave 2 ppl dead when axe 5 finishes channeling. I've seen both good and bad players die to this because I time it right.

    As for all the new balance stuff, the signet of stone change is a buff to my build. None of the nerfs affect me since I'm glass. However, I do see a ton of sustain nerfs to builds I can already kill. If I were to take pvp seriously again, I stand by axe 5 not being the problem. Sword/mh dagger need to better support the use of the offhands. Even torch 5 has the same problem of ppl moving away. Example sword 3: evade behind your target. If you hit them in back, immob them for 3 seconds. They aren't facing you so they can't turn around and melee interrupt you. Trait striders offense for some quickness too. Wreck them with WD.

    You can't play glass cannon Soulbeast in Ranked sPVP. The fact you said that you were in plat 2 rank playing necro. Soulbeast glass cannon build it's only for fun in sPVP and can be playable only in Unranked where you don't care about winning a match, but only kills etc. Ofc there are some situations when your team is strong and you can be the damage dealer on your team, but this is like a gamble. If you want to be competitive in sPVP ranked you definitely should not play glass cannon.
    I am agree that almost none of the nerf affected you ... (even this is wrong, because using Survival traits line, even now, you benefit from those traits who gives you atm healing or transfer disables , even you are in zerk gear) ... will not affect your damage, but still you will die faster than you do now.
    I didn't say vs Scourge you should use S/Axe, I mentioned that if you want to win you must go out of the point and play range ... with LB ofc.
    You can't compare torch 5 with axe 5 ... two weapons used in 2 totally different builds ... condi and power. Torch has a ground area and is a combo field, it should be like it is now, like all combo filed are (almost ... because are some like Rejuvenating Tides is mobile one ). Also you can't compare Barrage with WD , because first is range second is melee, and Ranger usual is a range class with less ability for melee fight (regarding defense) than Warrior, Revenant or Guardian (I know you didn't compare Barrage with WD, but your example was the same worst).

    can still land big hits with paladin amulet
    https://imgur.com/PoIQk3F

    changing WD wont solve any of your problems you listed above
    if anything would make them worse if you turnt it a mobile skill as it would then get nerfed to harmlessness and become mainly a mobile reflect skill

  • @Rezzet.3614 said:
    can still land big hits with paladin amulet
    https://imgur.com/PoIQk3F

    You are funny ... Just I told you that I did on warrior 23k with WA ... and 20k with hundred blades .... a skill who can be use 3 times in 1 row of WD ...

    changing WD wont solve any of your problems you listed above
    if anything would make them worse if you turnt it a mobile skill as it would then get nerfed to harmlessness and become mainly a mobile reflect skill

    You can't know for sure ... with new changes, when defensive passive traits will be nerfed, being mobile and hit every time (almost ) with WD could be a big help and solve some of the problems ... And if now WD do the same damage like WA (of warrior) I don't mind that they will make it mobile too ... Remember both do almost the same damage even WD has Vulnerability ... in the same time I don't mind to lose retaliation and gain mobility ... but this is just my opinion.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    Fascinating how the whole discussion escalates because we OP wanted to move during WD (i assume with 50% of normal speed).
    Dont even no why ppl are against it.

  • @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Fascinating how the whole discussion escalates because we OP wanted to move during WD (i assume with 50% of normal speed).
    Dont even no why ppl are against it.

    Unfortunately this is the Ranger community ...

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    Fascinating how the whole discussion escalates because we OP wanted to move during WD (i assume with 50% of normal speed).
    Dont even no why ppl are against it.

    Because some players here consider themselves as god tier, which they like to point out even more by being against any potential ranger buff, while at the same time being for most of the proposed nerfs. They think that by acting this way, they'll look even better.

    Others are not ranger mains, they simply try their best to make sure rangers get worse with every balance patch.

    Then there are the clueless ones that don't even know what they're talking about...

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down.

    Backstab coefficient? 2.4
    Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)
    ...
    WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + retal + whirl finisher with a wider attack range lol
    The cooldown may be long, but that much damage with all those bonuses is just excessive while being able to move.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • OGDeadHead.8326OGDeadHead.8326 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down lol.

    Backstab coefficient? 2.4
    Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)
    ...
    WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl finisher lol

    And how often can you use said skills within, lets say, 1 minute? So yeah, lol to you to.

    What a joke...

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2018

    @OGDeadHead.8326 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    Fine if you want to move if it makes the skill more usable, but that coefficient better come down lol.

    Backstab coefficient? 2.4
    Hundred Blades Coefficient? 4.62 + 1.21 (5.83)
    ...
    WD Coefficient? 7.92 + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl finisher lol

    And how often can you use said skills within, lets say, 1 minute? So yeah, lol to you to.

    What a joke...

    Um... the only environment where using skills over and over again over the course of a minute matters is PvE, to which this change doesn't concern anyone because there's little reason to move. By your logic, utility skills are all underpowered if they have anything above an 8s cooldown because of how often they can be used.

    Shadowstep on thief on a 20s cooldown seems real balanced then, right? No? Why?

    7.92 + retal + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl on a 360 degree AoE at 180 radius that's mobile is massively overloaded on a single skill for an offhand weapon and you're delusional if you think it isn't.

    Hell, the skill is called whirling DEFENSE. It's supposed to function as a zoning tool for area denial, not some kind of mega-nuke ability that kills everything nearby.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

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