WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck"

Whirling Defensehttps: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Whirling_Defense

The main problem regarding Whirling Defense is the "sitting duck" stance. It is the only skill of it kind who make the player to be a sitting duck. Other classes can move when they do similar skill. Also the area for this one it is only 150 units. Every time the enemies just move 2 steps and then they just are looking at you how you spin like a fool ... almost they laugh on the whole period of your spinning. After you finish this show/spectacle (we must mention that we can't stop doing this ... the only way is to waste a dodge or another skill) they walk gentle near you and start again what they did before you use WD.I must mention that even when you put down someone with WD, you can't stomp him till the skill didn't get his whole spinning, again you must wait or use a dodge (in this way you move away of your downed enemy) or another skill and after that you can stomp him ... ofc if the enemy is still there.

Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.You can always cancel the skill by stowing your weapon.

If you have a hard time utilizing Whirling Defense try it after you stun your enemy, with a GS or Shortbow for example or after a pull like your 4th skill on Offhand Axe, after a knockdown with the Gazelles F2 or Smokescales Beastmode F1 or while your enemy is immobilzed, maybe with the Druids "Ancient Seeds" or with your "Entangle" Elite skill.In some cases that won't be enough, but since you got quite a few ways to gain quickness as a ranger you should add that into the combo. Maybe cast a Quickening Zephir while you start to cast the Whirling Defense or swap your pet (Bristleback F2 into the Whirling Defenses kills most enemies in PvP/WvW) to trigger Zephyr's Speed.Using it with "One Wolf Pack", the Soulbeasts Elite, and/or "Sic' Em!" in Beastmode can boost the damage even more.

There are a few ways to use the skill effeciently, but sometimes you can only use it as one of the best downstate cleaves in the game. It is not an easy to utilize skill, but if you can make it work it does its job very good. Just learn when to use it, don't spam it into enemies that are mobile and make sure to cancel it before you root yourself into a nuke.

Ranger is about combining utilities and using them at the right time!I hope I can help a bit with this post.

@panekomo.7146 no I agree with dragon hunterz. Whirling being a long casting root is so supceptable to getting counterplayed. It worked fine in the pre hot era. But as a root it sets you up for easy counterplay. (Don't get me wrong I like skills that have counter plays to em, but when everyone has a million escapes and aoe it's not good)

Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

This game lives and dies on mobility having it a moving skill would actually make it from trash teir to very good even if it had a a smaller radius and less damage.

Any decent player on any class can easily counter and punish it hard.

Guard pull,Ele Gale (the only ele build I've found it to work consistently against is tempest when they air overload due to the cleave and retal)Warrior lol pick your poisonTheif shortbow or if dagger pistol just steal (don't even think if opening due to Bali venomSoulbeast merge nock back / druid stab ur pet and send it in, or skill 3 in druid formNecro (lolz who melees a necro just asking for marks and or shades to ruin your day)Mesmer manrta or well boomEngie once again pick your posionRev staff five hell even hammer does well against it just CoR or hammer aoe cc

Also team fights are often times just don't touch the floor lava and you can't do that with such a long channel.

The fact that your rooted makes you easy picking for all, at least with wordly impact it's not bad with quickness and the damage is one hit not a static oh just wrek me.

The only time I've found it useful is for cleaving downs when. You have alot of support

I really don't want to repeat myself @Eleazar.9478. I feel like you did not read my post above.There are ways to implement Whirling Defense, it can be decent but I never claimed it to be a very good skill in general.

@panekomo.7146 said:I really don't want to repeat myself @Eleazar.9478. I feel like you did not read my post above.There are ways to implement Whirling Defense, it can be decent but I never claimed it to be a very good skill in general.

I did read your post and just reiterating what kills it from being a good skill. You argue that it's good in certain situations and shouldn't be able to move while casting im arguing that it's not, and really only does one thing okay and dragon hunterz is absolutely right. That root really kills what could be a good skill into a trash one. (I'd rather have a skill be too good intially and nerfed down because that way it would see actuall play)

Okay, you are right about the skill being bad. But I still think you can make it work as it is. Of course it would be better if you were able to move while casting it. I don't think anybody can argue about that. I say it would be too strong if you were able to move with it since you can already make the skill decent by combining it with other utilities. If you were able to move with it you could make it god tier with said other utilities.

Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

We could probably take this discussion to infinity and beyond. This may just be a case of personal opinion.

@panekomo.7146 said:Okay, you are right about the skill being bad. But I still think you can make it work as it is. Of course it would be better if you were able to move while casting it. I don't think anybody can argue about that. I say it would be too strong if you were able to move with it since you can already make the skill decent by combining it with other utilities. If you were able to move with it you could make it god tier with said other utilities.

Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

We could probably take this discussion to infinity and beyond. This may just be a case of personal opinion.

Hey man these are what forums are for ;p. (Feel free to argue back I don't take it personally I like discussing and thinking of new ways to approach problems)

And if I seem dushy about my reply it's more borne out of me trying to make it work for literally years now. (Especially since I have a viking ish theme going on now) I've tried it again and again and again and find it just shut down completely.

My wish is that ranger has lots of different tools in the box, not one strong op build. This not only gives the game more flavor, but gives me a tool for different situations. (While I'm a pvxer I scew wy more towards PvP and roaming wvw so I view everything through that lense) i rather have a world where if I'm going against this I want this.

I don't play anything besides WvW and PvP, so I see through the same lense as you do.

Offhand Axe is similar to Offhand Dagger. Both are not used as a main way to fight enemies but as something situational. Dagger is used for evades and the long range cripple, Axe is used for a pull and a cleave. You have to use it at the right time.I got tons of kills with Offhand Axe even though I usually pick Dagger or Warhorn over it. But those kills were either after I chain CC'd a foe, when I could catch someone off guard or in zergfights against casters that were stuck in casts or did not pay attention at all.

The user DarkFlopy for example made good usage of Offhand Axe in his Cele Soulbeast build shown here:Forum Thread with Video

I use Offhand Axe mostly in my Survival Vanilla build when I know that I will go up against multiple foes at once while I am roaming. Combined with GS or even Shortbow it makes for a great tool to fight off nasty thieves or mesmer clones just as an example. Since I got a very high Quickness uptime it is very easy for me to just switch to the Axe after I stunned an enemy. I also run a Hydromancy Sigil on it which makes it even harder for a foe to get away.Even when I can "only" deal half the damage it is quite a lot and forces most classes to retreat a bit.

@"panekomo.7146" said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.You can always cancel the skill by stowing your weapon.

If you have a hard time utilizing Whirling Defense try it after you stun your enemy, with a GS or Shortbow for example or after a pull like your 4th skill on Offhand Axe, after a knockdown with the Gazelles F2 or Smokescales Beastmode F1 or while your enemy is immobilzed, maybe with the Druids "Ancient Seeds" or with your "Entangle" Elite skill.In some cases that won't be enough, but since you got quite a few ways to gain quickness as a ranger you should add that into the combo. Maybe cast a Quickening Zephir while you start to cast the Whirling Defense or swap your pet (Bristleback F2 into the Whirling Defenses kills most enemies in PvP/WvW) to trigger Zephyr's Speed.Using it with "One Wolf Pack", the Soulbeasts Elite, and/or "Sic' Em!" in Beastmode can boost the damage even more.

There are a few ways to use the skill effeciently, but sometimes you can only use it as one of the best downstate cleaves in the game. It is not an easy to utilize skill, but if you can make it work it does its job very good. Just learn when to use it, don't spam it into enemies that are mobile and make sure to cancel it before you root yourself into a nuke.

Ranger is about combining utilities and using them at the right time!I hope I can help a bit with this post.

I don't want to join your salty game ... so I try to not respond to your salty answer or advises ...

1. But I can tell you that now all classes have the abilities to get out from a stun, and even with a stun at least half of your WD damage will be waste.
2. When you make an advise , please remember that a player can't be in the same time Druid, Soulbeast or have whole skills of all weapons or have whole traits from all traits line.
3. Whirling Axe from warrior is very powerful too, the difference is he can move.But this post is not about how to use it or theory crafting about what you should do to make it work ... because in real fight in most of the situation this didn't work ... due to the fact this one is very predictable (like Worldly Impact) and the fact every class can easily get out from stun using breaking stun skill, teleport etc ...

PS: when I said didn't work I mean not full damage, but 15-50% ... sometimes less ... in mean time enemy can heal, or do anything ...

Instead of blocking projectiles, it should just be a full block outside of melee range (about 180 or so). So you have to take the damage from the axes in order to do hits to the ranger. Or if you want to interrupt, it has to be a melee interrupt.

That would make it a great whirling defense and an interesting defensive alternative to dagger (which is also awkward).

@"panekomo.7146" said:

Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

Why Warrior Whirling Axe is not "very fitting" for rangers? Rly I don't see why ... Maybe Rapid Fire and all our skills should be done without allow us to move ? It will fitted more the ranger ? We are not that class who should kite all the time ? Doesen't mean this that most of our skills (only Barrage could be an exception because is for a fix point area) should allow us to move in the same time we use it ?This opinion sounds exactly like other one ... that Longbow is not rly suit Ranger

@"Dragonzhunter.8506" said:

2. When you make an advise , please remember that a player can't be in the same time Druid, Soulbeast or have whole skills of all weapons or have whole traits from all traits line.I gave examples for a few builds and traits, not once did I mention you have to play all at once.Considering your offensive writing style you are not able to read english properly nor partake in a discussion, so i will se myself out of this and won't answer to your other points since I already explained them.I tried to help, to give some well explained advice and you don't want to see it.

Thank you for the Thread. Sorry, not sorry.

@panekomo.7146 said:Just learn when to use it, don't spam it into enemies that are mobile and make sure to cancel it before you root yourself into a nuke.Ranger is about combining utilities and using them at the right time!I hope I can help a bit with this post.

Because of this I said you are salty in your comment. For your knowledge I played all the build ... I am not a new player and I know how to use WD like I know how to use everything on and with Soulbeast, but this doesn't mean we still don't have a huge list with all kind of things who should be fixed or changed. So next time when you want to write like you did above, please don't do it.

@"panekomo.7146" said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

No, it wouldn't be "way too strong".

@"Eleazar.9478" said:Making it a moving skill even with a hefty dps Nerf in wvw/PvP would one make it fantastic for cleaves (witch ranger doesn't really have much of thus one of the many reasons that it falls out over other classes in comps)

With a "hefty dps Nerf" it would not be fantastic for cleaves. I mean, do you want to cleave just for the sake of it, while hitting like a wet noodle?

@panekomo.7146 said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

No it wouldn't.Whirling axes of warrior hits 15x with a base power of 3075 and a power coefficient of 8.3.Whirling defense on the other hand hits 12x with a base power of 2904 and a coefficient of 7.92 .

If we consider that both skills should be equal and that the dmg difference is made up via the utility of WD then bith skills should be able to move.For PvE its QoL and for PvP it does not even matter because you are still a big target for AoEs and such matters.

It has nothing to do with Git Gud and such things if you have to cancel it when you see a fluffy redfield under you midcast. Its annoying and missing QoL i would like to see on this skill, because its more than often just cancel fodder.

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@"panekomo.7146" said:

Yes, Anet could possibly reduce it's radius and damage but I think that would make it less interesting as a skill and wouldn't make any sense in the way Anet made the animation. Right now it is like a whirling dance which fits the ranger class. If you could move it would be just another Warrior Axe whirl clone and not very fitting for rangers.

Moving while casting barrage would actually be pretty sweet though. I would use LB in PvE again.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Moving while casting barrage would actually be pretty sweet though. I would use LB in PvE again.

Idd, but they (Anet) must manage too many things ... after you point the target on the ground ... if you move too far of that point (more than 1500) what should happen ? the cercle area should come to you? or your shooting it will stop ? and if we get this , Elementalist will ask that they could move when use Meteor Shower too :) .

I almost don't even understand why rooting skills exist in a game entirely based on movement. If a skill is going to root you it should be because the effect is so ridiculously grandiose it needs massive drawbacks to even exist, and uh... axe5 is not that. The original meteor shower, sure, root. Axe5? :s

@panekomo.7146 said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

Like @InsaneQR.7412 already explained to you, Whirling Axe do lets say the same damage and you need 1-2 dodge to avoid it or you should use a skill with leap (in front, side or back) it's not like in WD situation when enemy should just walk 3 steps and that's it , they are safe ...I don't mind if WD don't allow us to move but instead give us let's say Aegis ... Because when you are a sitting duck target , retaliation is almost good for nothing.I am agree that WD is strong, do a lot of damage and it is useful in combat, that's why I use it in sPVP and WvW, but you will hit only non experienced players or those who are too focused on something else than your actions.

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@panekomo.7146 said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

Like @InsaneQR.7412 already explained to you, Whirling Axe do lets say the same damage and you need 1-2 dodge to avoid it or you should use a skill with leap (in front, side or back) it's not like in WD situation when enemy should just walk 3 steps and that's it , they are safe ...I don't mind if WD don't allow us to move but instead give us let's say Aegis ... Because when you are a sitting duck target , retaliation is almost good for nothing.I am agree that WD is strong, do a lot of damage and it is useful in combat, that's why I use it in sPVP and WvW, but you will hit only non experienced players or those who are too focused on something else than your actions.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Another option would be to give it a fulltime block. So its basically similar to herald shield. But instead of healing you do dmg. Would make it strong in PvP and PvE and still would provide some nice counter play if the attacks are unblockable or if the enemy as you already said just dodges outwards and waits for the skill to end.

Agree

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Another option would be to give it a fulltime block. So its basically similar to herald shield. But instead of healing you do dmg. Would make it strong in PvP and PvE and still would provide some nice counter play if the attacks are unblockable or if the enemy as you already said just dodges outwards and waits for the skill to end.

:+1:

@Fluffball.8307 said:I almost don't even understand why rooting skills exist in a game entirely based on movement. If a skill is going to root you it should be because the effect is so ridiculously grandiose it needs massive drawbacks to even exist, and uh... axe5 is not that. The original meteor shower, sure, root. Axe5? :s

Because the game is all about the joy of movement. Don't you remember how they were advertising mounts?

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@panekomo.7146 said:Whirling Defense can deals tons of damage and blocks projectiles. If you would be able to move while casting it it would be way too strong.

Warrior axe 5 doesn't apply 12 vulnerability and reflect projectiles. So damage difference wise, the vuln has a bit of a wind up but it ends up doing same damage if it finishes channeling while enhancing the dmg of yourself, pet and team. Vuln matters less in PvE but PvE has bigger problems than axe 5: weak ranger sword/GS autoattacks that need buffs/PvE splits. Reflect is also huge utility and potentially huge damage too. It's not fair to ignore that utility and the pet and only compare raw coefficients. To be clear, I'm no against movement being added (maybe something like 50% reduced speed like guardian gs2) but not at the cost of reduced damage or blocking instead of reflecting.

I play a glassy s/a+lb SB. I have no real stability/sustain and lb3 stealth isn't going to save me from some insane cleave at downed bodies. If I need to secure a kill after downing someone with lb, axe 5 (sometimes Sic'em) can be amazing. Warrior, rev, and engi downed skill 1 and 2 are projectiles and thief bouncing downed auto is great to reflect (they don't realize it and/or can't hit stow weapon to cancel the auto). I've wiped 2-3 people out with a single axe4/5 combo when only 1 person was initially downed because the downed people kill their allies with reflects while I manage to hit 20-30k on the channel. Or reflect deadeyes that thought they had the snipe on me. Don't channel axe5 and then cancel it because someone countered you. Use it when the reflect is needed to counter someone else.

Side note on reflects, it scales off of enemy power/coeff but your crit chance/dmg, dmg modifiers and the 12 vuln it stacks. That means I reflect hard in my glassy build. I know it doesn't work for everyone but I still think it has some amazing utility/dmg that make it worth the loss of movement. Even in PvP, my problem with axe 5 is that I still need to pair it with sword. It works well for bailing me out if the axe 4/5 combo fails but I wish the sword hit harder. Or the mh dagger. I also would be ok with an immob on dagger 3. Quickness immob into axe 5. Buff the auto coeff a bit. There is nothing wrong with a strong skill that prevents movement as long as it can be better paired with another weapon.

TLDR: I'm ok with axe 5 as is. Reflect/dmg is great. Buff main-hand dagger/sword power.