Future Expansion - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Future Expansion

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're forgetting that we still need to figure out how to neutralize Kralkatorrik without ending the world.

    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2018

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

    In most circumstances I would agree, however King Reza was the former Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, and commanded Zhaitan’s forces in that instance alone, which makes him a lieutenant at the very least and he guarded a very important area. He almost acts like a purified dragon minion.

    As for your other comment the way further cutscene in Kesha advised that magic needs to eventually come to balance, which means replacing Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s vacancy.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're forgetting that we still need to figure out how to neutralize Kralkatorrik without ending the world.

    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    Even if Aurene replaces Kralkatorrik, this isn't likely to be an easy or immediate thing - if it was merely absorbing a significant portion of magic, then Aurene would be an Elder Dragon already as she absorbed a great deal of Mordremoth's magic (and later, a good portion of Balthazar's that came from all four dead and hibernating dragons). So we have to figure out a means to make her an Elder Dragon before killing Kralkatorrik. And while it might get covered in a handful of instances, it wouldn't be something as quick as Mordremoth's weakness (I like to believe that ArenaNet has learned from their failures in writing, as each new one is different than the last, mostly).

    As for Reza: Season 3 shows that humans and ghosts cannot absorb a ton of magic in of itself without dire consequences. For most, it results in insanity and addiction as highlighted in Out of the Shadows. But even when you have defenses against it like the Commander, it results in visions (the "sad anomalies" from Burden of Choice side story). So Reza as well as any normal mortal for that matter, is out of the question.

    (On an aside, this also heavily implies that either a) god magic is different from Tyrian magic thus fall under different rules here, or b) the gods really did give a unique blessing for Kormir to ascend to godhood.)

    Pale Tree is a possibility, but for all we know it has to be an actual dragon and not simply a dragon minion. Glint - and by proxy, Vlast and Aurene - are literally children of an Elder Dragon. So it might even be that is the requirement, a literal dynasty of Elder Dragons if you would. Which would mean we'd have to find out if the other Elder Dragons had children, purify them so they're have their own will, and befriend them before making them Elder Dragons.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    In most circumstances I would agree, however King Reza was the former Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, and commanded Zhaitan’s forces in that instance alone, which makes him a lieutenant at the very least and he guarded a very important area. He almost acts like a purified dragon minion.

    Reza's ghost wasn't the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan. His body was, and his soul merely trapped within. There's a slight difference there. We see many ghosts who's bodies were corrupted while the ghost was not - the two, body and soul, are distinctively different things in Guild Wars.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 19, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're forgetting that we still need to figure out how to neutralize Kralkatorrik without ending the world.

    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    Even if Aurene replaces Kralkatorrik, this isn't likely to be an easy or immediate thing - if it was merely absorbing a significant portion of magic, then Aurene would be an Elder Dragon already as she absorbed a great deal of Mordremoth's magic (and later, a good portion of Balthazar's that came from all four dead and hibernating dragons). So we have to figure out a means to make her an Elder Dragon before killing Kralkatorrik. And while it might get covered in a handful of instances, it wouldn't be something as quick as Mordremoth's weakness (I like to believe that ArenaNet has learned from their failures in writing, as each new one is different than the last, mostly).

    As for Reza: Season 3 shows that humans and ghosts cannot absorb a ton of magic in of itself without dire consequences. For most, it results in insanity and addiction as highlighted in Out of the Shadows. But even when you have defenses against it like the Commander, it results in visions (the "sad anomalies" from Burden of Choice side story). So Reza as well as any normal mortal for that matter, is out of the question.

    (On an aside, this also heavily implies that either a) god magic is different from Tyrian magic thus fall under different rules here, or b) the gods really did give a unique blessing for Kormir to ascend to godhood.)

    Pale Tree is a possibility, but for all we know it has to be an actual dragon and not simply a dragon minion. Glint - and by proxy, Vlast and Aurene - are literally children of an Elder Dragon. So it might even be that is the requirement, a literal dynasty of Elder Dragons if you would. Which would mean we'd have to find out if the other Elder Dragons had children, purify them so they're have their own will, and befriend them before making them Elder Dragons.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    In most circumstances I would agree, however King Reza was the former Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, and commanded Zhaitan’s forces in that instance alone, which makes him a lieutenant at the very least and he guarded a very important area. He almost acts like a purified dragon minion.

    Reza's ghost wasn't the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan. His body was, and his soul merely trapped within. There's a slight difference there. We see many ghosts who's bodies were corrupted while the ghost was not - the two, body and soul, are distinctively different things in Guild Wars.

    After reviewing the dialogue with the battle the Sovereign eye of Zhaitan, it seems that Reza is speaking as he is the Sovereign eye, just my interpretation I guess.

    Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: What's happening to me... Your sword! Why does it gleam so brightly? Ahhhhh!
    King Reza: Ah... My own hand...my own form. My mind is no longer controlled by the dragon's curse. Praise the gods, I am free!

    Also it seems strange that the eyes have spirits bound to them for some reason, while entities like Crusader Aliyana are separated from their Risen.

    My unit fell, becoming the enemy we were sent to fight. And worse, they found me, still with fever, and tore me apart. Now my corrupted body fights for Zhaitan.

    In terms of the replacements for Zhaitan and Mordremoth being dragons, I caught this piece of dialogue in the cutscene which interesting phrasing.

    Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.

    They use the word entities rather then dragon here. Which is strange and leaves me to believe that beings like the Pale Tree could replace the dragons.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Furthermore, we don’t have a lot of information on the Orr Ghosts, they seem to act purified champions and want to actively reverse the corruption, which Crysader Aliyana has no mention of. Reza seems to act much like Glint, the Pale Tree as well as Vlast and he is the only benevolent entity that resides in Orr that had any sort of real power with Zhaitan, which is why I went down this line of thought.

  • Theros.1390Theros.1390 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaveh.6801 said:
    I believe they said something about not adding new races a long time ago

    And a long time ago, they also said they'll never add Mount in the game ^^

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    I never said it was all sunshine, rainbows, and hand-holding, only that is still functional without two.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Furthermore, we don’t have a lot of information on the Orr Ghosts, they seem to act purified champions and want to actively reverse the corruption, which Crysader Aliyana has no mention of. Reza seems to act much like Glint, the Pale Tree as well as Vlast and he is the only benevolent entity that resides in Orr that had any sort of real power with Zhaitan, which is why I went down this line of thought.

    To be fair, Orr is their homeland. Of course they want to cleanse their homeland of dragon corruption. Aliyana on the other hand is Krytan and not even in Orr.

    That's like saying "Jennah wants to stay on the throne that was given to her ancestor by the gods, therefore she can become a god".

    I would hardly say that they act like purified champions, however. They literally just stand there and tell others what to do. They're not the ones purifying Orr either - the sylvari present throughout are.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    I never said it was all sunshine, rainbows, and hand-holding, only that is still functional without two.

    Massive energy build ups resulting in people dying or going insane is hardly what I would call functional.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Furthermore, we don’t have a lot of information on the Orr Ghosts, they seem to act purified champions and want to actively reverse the corruption, which Crysader Aliyana has no mention of. Reza seems to act much like Glint, the Pale Tree as well as Vlast and he is the only benevolent entity that resides in Orr that had any sort of real power with Zhaitan, which is why I went down this line of thought.

    To be fair, Orr is their homeland. Of course they want to cleanse their homeland of dragon corruption. Aliyana on the other hand is Krytan and not even in Orr.

    That's like saying "Jennah wants to stay on the throne that was given to her ancestor by the gods, therefore she can become a god".

    I would hardly say that they act like purified champions, however. They literally just stand there and tell others what to do. They're not the ones purifying Orr either - the sylvari present throughout are.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    I never said it was all sunshine, rainbows, and hand-holding, only that is still functional without two.

    Massive energy build ups resulting in people dying or going insane is hardly what I would call functional.

    Was it the magic in general that caused them to go insane or the fact that it was bloodstone magic? I can't remember back when it all started if it was the general excess magic or the fact that it was bloodstone which had been infused with souls for however long.

    I guess magic is magic.

    Kind of interested in how the Olmakhan play out in all this too. For some reason it seemed like they may have been normal charr that (although more of a nature magic shaman type) have a bit more affinity for magic in general. But even in isolation on that island for what somewhat small time they've been there they haven't really been exposed to enough to cause them to evolve so that may just be wild speculation.

    As to the rest of this thread, although it's possible we could find another dragon champion at some point, how would we free their will if the forgotten are truly completely extinct? And would they really go down this plot again with Aurene having already taken this spotlight?

    I do find it hard to believe the forgotten are COMPLETELY extinct but that's probably just blind hope that somewhere there's some ancient ruins hidden like Tarir full of forgotten that have just avoided being hunted and stayed intentionally cut off from everyone else. (I guess theoretically if Aurene did take over Kralk's position she would have control over the branded forgotten and those could perform the ritual they used to free Glint?)

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

    In most circumstances I would agree, however King Reza was the former Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, and commanded Zhaitan’s forces in that instance alone, which makes him a lieutenant at the very least and he guarded a very important area. He almost acts like a purified dragon minion.

    As for your other comment the way further cutscene in Kesha advised that magic needs to eventually come to balance, which means replacing Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s vacancy.

    I still don't understand why if it's this simple, the gods aren't just staying on Tyria and absorbing all of these elder dragon's magic. Balth took Primordus and Jormag and a bloodstone, so it's clearly not a matter of it being too much magic for them to handle. They were afraid of going to war with the elder dragons but was that because of the pure destruction of the battle with them or the imbalance in the eternal alchemy that they were afraid of? Unless there's some rule that according to the eternal alchemy there must always be a dragon or dragon champion because of the nature of their power being different than "divine" power, it seems the gods could just pick a dragon and let us less destructively wage war with it and give the gods the power boost to help create the balance.
    This whole scenario is just still too vague to really apply anykind of logic to though. We still don't really know anything about the eternal alchemy, or even definitively about the spheres of influence. Just an open plot for them to dive into and switch around whenever they need to.

    But I didn't think the Kesha vision hinted that we needed to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth as much as the original plan was that Aurene and Vlast would alternate possibly taking 3 elder dragons each creating the balance or whatever?

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    As to the rest of this thread, although it's possible we could find another dragon champion at some point, how would we free their will if the forgotten are truly completely extinct? And would they really go down this plot again with Aurene having already taken this spotlight?

    It wouldn't take a Forgotten. We've actually performed the ritual ourselves, back in Arah P3, although the devs haven't given us a nod back to that in some time. We have the process, know the materials, have access to the ritual site, and have performed a successful test of the procedure... hypothetically, all we're missing is a way to lure a champion in and hold it in place.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Most likely Aurene is going to pull a Kormir. I could also see the Pale Tree taking over Mordremoth’s spot and the Orrian Royalty or just King Reza himself taking up Zhaitan’s position.

    I don't think a human ghost can become an Elder dragon tier being. I would assume that Zhaitan and Mordremoth will likely simply remain unreplaced. The world is seemingly able to exist without two Elder Dragons being alive, its going below 4 that is the world ending threat.

    In most circumstances I would agree, however King Reza was the former Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan, and commanded Zhaitan’s forces in that instance alone, which makes him a lieutenant at the very least and he guarded a very important area. He almost acts like a purified dragon minion.

    As for your other comment the way further cutscene in Kesha advised that magic needs to eventually come to balance, which means replacing Zhaitan and Mordremoth’s vacancy.

    I still don't understand why if it's this simple, the gods aren't just staying on Tyria and absorbing all of these elder dragon's magic. Balth took Primordus and Jormag and a bloodstone, so it's clearly not a matter of it being too much magic for them to handle. They were afraid of going to war with the elder dragons but was that because of the pure destruction of the battle with them or the imbalance in the eternal alchemy that they were afraid of? Unless there's some rule that according to the eternal alchemy there must always be a dragon or dragon champion because of the nature of their power being different than "divine" power, it seems the gods could just pick a dragon and let us less destructively wage war with it and give the gods the power boost to help create the balance.
    This whole scenario is just still too vague to really apply anykind of logic to though. We still don't really know anything about the eternal alchemy, or even definitively about the spheres of influence. Just an open plot for them to dive into and switch around whenever they need to.

    But I didn't think the Kesha vision hinted that we needed to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth as much as the original plan was that Aurene and Vlast would alternate possibly taking 3 elder dragons each creating the balance or whatever?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Furthermore, we don’t have a lot of information on the Orr Ghosts, they seem to act purified champions and want to actively reverse the corruption, which Crysader Aliyana has no mention of. Reza seems to act much like Glint, the Pale Tree as well as Vlast and he is the only benevolent entity that resides in Orr that had any sort of real power with Zhaitan, which is why I went down this line of thought.

    To be fair, Orr is their homeland. Of course they want to cleanse their homeland of dragon corruption. Aliyana on the other hand is Krytan and not even in Orr.

    That's like saying "Jennah wants to stay on the throne that was given to her ancestor by the gods, therefore she can become a god".

    I would hardly say that they act like purified champions, however. They literally just stand there and tell others what to do. They're not the ones purifying Orr either - the sylvari present throughout are.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I think at least one of the two need replacement in order to replace any other. We don't know the exact circumstances, but Season 3 heavily implies that one more Elder Dragon death - potentially even momentarily - could lead to the world's destruction. Besides that, with just two dragons dead we see a ton of issues throughout the world (Conservation of Magic and Anomalous Occurances being the prime examples of this, but so is all the ley-crazed creatures that the Order of Shadows have been marking with bounties).

    I never said it was all sunshine, rainbows, and hand-holding, only that is still functional without two.

    Massive energy build ups resulting in people dying or going insane is hardly what I would call functional.

    What is the alternative? Cleansing one of the undead dragons like Tequatl? Seems like a lot of story steps unless they pull a “oh by the way we cleansed an undead dragon.” I suppose we could have any kind of dragon replace Zhaitan or any other being that can share magic, not sure who that would be. Reza just seems so convenient to me. Seeing how connected to Zhaitan he was. He bore the dragon’s vision and can now talk about how it felt to be connected to an elder dragon much like Glint. I just see a lot of similarities between the two and then to have Reza appear just before Path of Fire...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Was it the magic in general that caused them to go insane or the fact that it was bloodstone magic? I can't remember back when it all started if it was the general excess magic or the fact that it was bloodstone which had been infused with souls for however long.

    I guess magic is magic.

    Initially it was presented as the Maguuma Bloodstone's magic, and indeed that Bloodstone seems far more addictive than either the Ring of Fire Bloodstone (as shown with Captain Grumby's ghost) or magic in general. However, it turns out it's magic in general. The basis behind the bounties in PoF and Season 4 is that individuals had come into contact with excessive ley energy and have been driven mad by the exposure.

    The Commander almost suffered the same fate.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    As to the rest of this thread, although it's possible we could find another dragon champion at some point, how would we free their will if the forgotten are truly completely extinct? And would they really go down this plot again with Aurene having already taken this spotlight?

    Quite a few ways. While the Forgotten are gone, they did teach the Exalted some of their tricks. Furthermore, the Altar of Glaust still exists and is usable, by all knowledge. We also found alternative methods of purifying dragon corruption: via the Pale Tree (in the case of Orr at least), via the stuff we fed Mawdrey, and most recently via Rose Quartz + refined light.

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I do find it hard to believe the forgotten are COMPLETELY extinct but that's probably just blind hope that somewhere there's some ancient ruins hidden like Tarir full of forgotten that have just avoided being hunted and stayed intentionally cut off from everyone else. (I guess theoretically if Aurene did take over Kralk's position she would have control over the branded forgotten and those could perform the ritual they used to free Glint?)

    Forgotten in Tyria are extinct. But keep in mind that a majority of their population in GW1 were serving the gods in the Mists. We don't know their fates.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    What is the alternative? Cleansing one of the undead dragons like Tequatl? Seems like a lot of story steps unless they pull a “oh by the way we cleansed an undead dragon.” I suppose we could have any kind of dragon replace Zhaitan or any other being that can share magic, not sure who that would be. Reza just seems so convenient to me. Seeing how connected to Zhaitan he was. He bore the dragon’s vision and can now talk about how it felt to be connected to an elder dragon much like Glint. I just see a lot of similarities between the two and then to have Reza appear just before Path of Fire...

    Well, there are the Bone Dragons and other corpses we had which remain unaccounted for. Wyverns are often called dragons and may be viable too. Then there are the many dragon species of Cantha such as Saltspray Dragons, Dragon Mosses, and Rockhide Dragons. Not to mention Kuunavang and Albax themselves.

    Reza, all the same, is a ghost. And a human ghost at that. And we know how massive amounts of magic affect ghosts. I don't think that Reza being stuck inside a corrupted corpse will change anything.

    But I think the whole "what's the alternative" will be a major plot point once we solve Aurene getting into dragonhood. Unless they alter the perception of the story and make it notable that it's possible for one Elder Dragon to tie to multiple spheres after all, and not just steal the magic of the sphere like Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik has done, thus keeping the All in balance with a singular ultra-Elder Dragon.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Reza, all the same, is a ghost. And a human ghost at that. And we know how massive amounts of magic affect ghosts. I don't think that Reza being stuck inside a corrupted corpse will change anything.

    True, true, but perhaps since Reza was in a corrupted body may mean that he is used to absorbing magic as Dragon minions are known to do. Heck, look where we fight The Sovereign Eye, right in the pool or source of Orr’s magic. Reza could have immunity to this magic sickness/madness.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    AH! I know why we should go to Cantha. Aurene replaces Kralk, we still need three more dragons to replace the 3 EDs. Two of them will likely/should be not based in GW1, but - what about the last one? We should go to Cantha to find Kuunavang. It’d be an interesting dynamic, breaking into a xenophobic nation to find a dragon, probably becoming involved in helping them get back into a better lifestyle, all that stuff

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2018

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    AH! I know why we should go to Cantha. Aurene replaces Kralk, we still need three more dragons to replace the 3 EDs. Two of them will likely/should be not based in GW1, but - what about the last one? We should go to Cantha to find Kuunavang. It’d be an interesting dynamic, breaking into a xenophobic nation to find a dragon, probably becoming involved in helping them get back into a better lifestyle, all that stuff

    Technically, they would need two, one for Zhaitan and one for Mordremoth, hence why my line of thinking was Reza, ex Dragon Champion/ Lieutenant (Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan) and the Pale Tree for Mordremoth. Another thing to be noted is these entities are going to be taking over these magical spheres, so it would make sense for Aurene to take over Kralkatorik’s position as the Crystal Elder, Pale Tree to take over Mordremoth being that she created from Mordremoth and a plant and lastly Reza for Zhaitan the Elder undead dragon.

    What’s particularly interesting about Reza and orrian royals for that matter is they are reclaiming some of the Risen. Reclaimed Wraiths for that matter, which are being purified by Ley magic and seem to be serving the royalty, which is a very strange detail to show.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just for a reference, here is the dialogue of the balance of Tyrian magic from the way forward.

    Cinematic upon activating the final pedestal:
    Sadizi: The millennia-long Elder Dragon cycle is one of feast and famine. Ravenous, they rise. Sated, they sleep.
    Sadizi: Glint and the Forgotten set out to break this cycle of extremes and to restore true balance.
    Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.
    Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.
    Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.
    Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.
    Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2018

    as @MightyTeapot said on Twitch, Guild Wars 2: Factions !!! live up to the name :p :p :p

    since race dispute aren't really a thing anymore, i wanna see anet reused personal story's faction alignment, make Vigil, Order of Whispers, and Durmand Priory having a three way war with each other; let's destroy Lion's Arch and rebuild it again, getting tired of the aquatic theme.

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    make Vigil, Order of Whispers, and Durmand Priory having a three way war with each other;

    That would be boring and pointless. There is no reason for the three orders to fight each other, especially after the success they have had already.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    make Vigil, Order of Whispers, and Durmand Priory having a three way war with each other;

    That would be boring and pointless. There is no reason for the three orders to fight each other, especially after the success they have had already.

    More then likely we will have more conflict between the order of whispers and the order of shadows given their tumultuous relationship.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    More then likely we will have more conflict between the order of whispers and the order of shadows given their tumultuous relationship.

    Yes, this is highly likely. Future non-dragon antagonist factions I could see occurring are the Ministry of Purity, and the Kurzicks/Luxons whenever we go to Cantha.

    Though, at this point, I struggle to think of a major enemy faction for any future central Tyria content that isn't dragon related.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I could. I really don't see them doing an expansion for Kralkatorik. While Path of Fire was about stopping Balthazar, Balthazar's goal was to kill Kralkatorik and take his power, thus we ended up doing most of the things that would be expected of a Kralkatorik themed expansion. We went to Glint's lair, saw her memories, and destroyed the dragonblood spear. We met Vlast, he died, we read his memories, and went to his home of Kesho. We learned Kralkatorik's unique weakness, which is his own power. Aurene came, got dragon-napped by Balthazar, got used by Balthazar in an attempt to kill Kralkatorik, and them absorbed a ton of energy from Balthazar's death, causing her to rapidly grow. And LWS4's mastery tract is based around Aurene harnessing her new power. If I were to compare how far we were in the Kralkatorik story to that of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, we would be in Cursed Shore/Dragon Stand right about to enter Arah or Mordremoth's mind. Really, all we need to do is call up Logan and ask him to bring the Pact down here so he can use that endless army of redshirts to distract Kralkatorik's forces while we use some mcguffin to zap Kralktorik's power into Aurene.

    You're forgetting that we still need to figure out how to neutralize Kralkatorrik without ending the world. This is a big thing that we've not even touched upon yet. If we assume Season 4 will be the same length as Season 3 (which is more likely than not though I'd prefer Seasons to be 9 episodes long regularly, as Season 3 suffered due to lack of length), then there simply will not be enough time to focus on defeating Joko, discovering how to save the world, and then making the push against Kralkatorrik. We would have to finish Joko next episode, or find out what we need to know in some super contrived Mordremoth's-weakness kind of way which is just bad writing.

    I suspect that Kralkatorrik brands Joko, it then pulls Jokos story arc into Kralkatorrik’s. Now you are trying to take out both of them which is completing a single goal or objective. The reason I think he will be branded is a small piece of dialogue from eye of the Brandstorm.

    If chose to side with Joko:
    The Awakened fought well at first, but...it was almost as if the dragon targeted them specifically. Now that they're all Branded, we're overwhelmed!

    Seems Kralkatorrik is targeting the Awakened to bolster his ranks and they seem to be the dominate army in the area, since the Forged were defeated.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I suspect that Kralkatorrik brands Joko, it then pulls Jokos story arc into Kralkatorrik’s. Now you are trying to take out both of them which is completing a single goal or objective. The reason I think he will be branded is a small piece of dialogue from eye of the Brandstorm.

    I highly doubt Joko will get branded, I doubt even more that Joko will even actually get removed from power at all.

    At best, the Elona storyline ends with us having helped rebuild the Sunspears, reformed the Order of Whispers/Shadows, and leaving them in a position to mount a larger rebellion against Joko, with the idea that Elona is headed to a better path. The problem with removing Joko is that hes been in power so long, that removing him just creates a massive vacuum for someone else who is just as bad to step in, which has happened numerous times when real world dictators are quickly overthrown.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2018

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I suspect that Kralkatorrik brands Joko, it then pulls Jokos story arc into Kralkatorrik’s. Now you are trying to take out both of them which is completing a single goal or objective. The reason I think he will be branded is a small piece of dialogue from eye of the Brandstorm.

    I highly doubt Joko will get branded, I doubt even more that Joko will even actually get removed from power at all.

    At best, the Elona storyline ends with us having helped rebuild the Sunspears, reformed the Order of Whispers/Shadows, and leaving them in a position to mount a larger rebellion against Joko, with the idea that Elona is headed to a better path. The problem with removing Joko is that hes been in power so long, that removing him just creates a massive vacuum for someone else who is just as bad to step in, which has happened numerous times when real world dictators are quickly overthrown.

    Seems kinda doubtful. Joko is too dangerous to be kept around. I could see the order of shadows crippling Joko and slowly reforming the Elonian kingdom by making Joko a puppet, until he is no longer needed.

    If Joko did get branded it would focus the plot entirely on Kralkatorik.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Seems kinda doubtful. Joko is too dangerous to be kept around. I could see the order of shadows crippling Joko and slowly reforming the Elonian kingdom by making Joko a puppet, until he is no longer needed.

    If Joko did get branded it would focus the plot entirely on Kralkatorik.

    The problem with removing Joko is that hes been around for so long, and controlled Elona so much, that removing him would actually make things worse. We see this in the real world were dictators get removed in violent revolutions, only to have someone just as bad take their place. Removing Joko would take years of systemic re-culterlaization of the Elonian people to not be so dependent on him. We see this in PoF where Joko has been gone for some time, yet the people ion his Domain are so blinded by all the BS he has spewed for hundreds of years that they just make excuses for it.

    Now, that isn't to say there is nothing to be done to Joko. Helping rebuild the Sunspears in Vabbi, and Istan, as well as helping rebellions and attacks on places like Plawadan, and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall, and I suspect the Waterworks in Kourna when we go there, help weaken his position. The Living Story will end with Joko losing the scarab plague, having the gate hubs destroyed, him losing a rather sizeable portion of his armies due to the combined attrition of the Branded, Forged, and our actions, and there being a rather sizeable open rebellion across major parts of Elona. Joko wont be totally removed, but his ability to do anything will be too tied up in all this stuff for him to do anything, and we will leave the region with the knowledge it is heading to a better path.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Seems kinda doubtful. Joko is too dangerous to be kept around. I could see the order of shadows crippling Joko and slowly reforming the Elonian kingdom by making Joko a puppet, until he is no longer needed.

    If Joko did get branded it would focus the plot entirely on Kralkatorik.

    The problem with removing Joko is that hes been around for so long, and controlled Elona so much, that removing him would actually make things worse. We see this in the real world were dictators get removed in violent revolutions, only to have someone just as bad take their place. Removing Joko would take years of systemic re-culterlaization of the Elonian people to not be so dependent on him. We see this in PoF where Joko has been gone for some time, yet the people ion his Domain are so blinded by all the BS he has spewed for hundreds of years that they just make excuses for it.

    Now, that isn't to say there is nothing to be done to Joko. Helping rebuild the Sunspears in Vabbi, and Istan, as well as helping rebellions and attacks on places like Plawadan, and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall, and I suspect the Waterworks in Kourna when we go there, help weaken his position. The Living Story will end with Joko losing the scarab plague, having the gate hubs destroyed, him losing a rather sizeable portion of his armies due to the combined attrition of the Branded, Forged, and our actions, and there being a rather sizeable open rebellion across major parts of Elona. Joko wont be totally removed, but his ability to do anything will be too tied up in all this stuff for him to do anything, and we will leave the region with the knowledge it is heading to a better path.

    Or he will get branded.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Seems kinda doubtful. Joko is too dangerous to be kept around. I could see the order of shadows crippling Joko and slowly reforming the Elonian kingdom by making Joko a puppet, until he is no longer needed.

    And then the Archons will just strap Joko to his Bone Throne and live on as the Eternal God? Skulls for the skull throne!

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    What is the alternative? Cleansing one of the undead dragons like Tequatl? Seems like a lot of story steps unless they pull a “oh by the way we cleansed an undead dragon.” I suppose we could have any kind of dragon replace Zhaitan or any other being that can share magic, not sure who that would be. Reza just seems so convenient to me. Seeing how connected to Zhaitan he was. He bore the dragon’s vision and can now talk about how it felt to be connected to an elder dragon much like Glint. I just see a lot of similarities between the two and then to have Reza appear just before Path of Fire...

    Well, there are the Bone Dragons and other corpses we had which remain unaccounted for. Wyverns are often called dragons and may be viable too. Then there are the many dragon species of Cantha such as Saltspray Dragons, Dragon Mosses, and Rockhide Dragons. Not to mention Kuunavang and Albax themselves.

    Reza, all the same, is a ghost. And a human ghost at that. And we know how massive amounts of magic affect ghosts. I don't think that Reza being stuck inside a corrupted corpse will change anything.

    But I think the whole "what's the alternative" will be a major plot point once we solve Aurene getting into dragonhood. Unless they alter the perception of the story and make it notable that it's possible for one Elder Dragon to tie to multiple spheres after all, and not just steal the magic of the sphere like Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik has done, thus keeping the All in balance with a singular ultra-Elder Dragon.

    There still one more alternative. There's one character I know of, who's skilled in the ways of death, powerful in his own right, and has enough ambition to want to insert himself into the cosmology of the world. Palawa Joko. We don't know that the scarab plague is the last step in his master plan. Who's to say a centuries-old lich who's skilled enough to develop his own (formerly) unique discipline of magic, and overturn the cycle of life and death to shoehorn undeath in as a "natural" event that is expected after death, couldn't claim Zhatan's place. He might even have the knowledge how to do it. There's no way Joko didn't have forgotten living basically next door to the bone palace and never once awaken one. If he did, that knowledge combined with the expertise of the awakened inquest he now has, might give him the chance to make a run to Orr and take over. (Or at least take command of the remaining risen, for a nice ironic theft of the commander's "If I can't build an army, I'll steal one." plan.) Not that I want to see Joko make himself a pivotal piece of the fabric of the world, but I'd say, he's definitely in the top 3 know death-related characters we've got who could take the mantle.

  • Sublimatio.6981Sublimatio.6981 Member ✭✭✭

    @Overlord RainyDay.2084 said:
    There still one more alternative. There's one character I know of, who's skilled in the ways of death, powerful in his own right, and has enough ambition to want to insert himself into the cosmology of the world. Palawa Joko. We don't know that the scarab plague is the last step in his master plan. Who's to say a centuries-old lich who's skilled enough to develop his own (formerly) unique discipline of magic, and overturn the cycle of life and death to shoehorn undeath in as a "natural" event that is expected after death, couldn't claim Zhatan's place. He might even have the knowledge how to do it. There's no way Joko didn't have forgotten living basically next door to the bone palace and never once awaken one. If he did, that knowledge combined with the expertise of the awakened inquest he now has, might give him the chance to make a run to Orr and take over. (Or at least take command of the remaining risen, for a nice ironic theft of the commander's "If I can't build an army, I'll steal one." plan.) Not that I want to see Joko make himself a pivotal piece of the fabric of the world, but I'd say, he's definitely in the top 3 know death-related characters we've got who could take the mantle.

    Livia is more likely to take Zhaitan's role. She's definitely more benevolent than Joko and probably has the ability (or means to get the ability) to become a suitable vessel.

    "clang clang shriiiiek clang!" -Belinda Delaqua
    When I join your LFG

  • Well, I feel like we would be pointed into North now and "save" Jormag, after dealing with Kralkatorrik in LW4.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arahmitz.2196 said:
    Well, I feel like we would be pointed into North now and "save" Jormag, after dealing with Kralkatorrik in LW4.

    Both Jormag and Primordus are currently inactive, and are likely to remain that way until after both Kralkatorik and Bubbles are removed and replaced.

    It would make sense from a narrative perspective where the first two dragons we fight(Zhaitan and Mordremoth) are in the central Tyria region, the next two(Kralkatorik and Bubbles) take us out of Central Tyira into places like Elona and Cantha to give us some fresh new scenery and factions to interact with, then the last two dragons(Jormag and Primordus) bring us back into the Central Tyria region as a book end.

    Primordus especially would make sense for being the last dragon we fight as a narrative tie in into Guild Wars 1, where the last release, Eye of the North, had us fighting Primordus's champion.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I just don’t see how they’re going to stretch kralk out to yet another expansion. Or perhaps I just don’t want them to. I am interested in the Charr lands but even if we go back north the only thing pertaining to kralk up there is his sleeping point. Are we going to have another expansion and living world release just to go to one map to maybe find something useful to fight against kralk? Will that be a suitable enough time for the players to not be upset with the idea of young Aurene taking up the mantle? What benefit does it have putting it off until another living world release when they could just write in a way of dealing with it in this expansion that (although currently Joko is the focus of) we could just deal with at the end of this season?

    Do you really see us spending this entire living season on Joko when we have already rekindled the sun Spears and halted his invasion? We know even less about how to kill Joko than we do Kralk, but we also know his reach is limited now that we’ve destroyed his teleportation hub. The only imminent threat Joko poses right now is the scarab plague.

    We don’t know how many episodes this season will have, but I highly doubt we’re going to be spending every episode for the rest of the season slowly working our way up to resolving the threat of Joko.

    As far as patterns go with elder dragons, the base game ended with us defeating Zhaitan. Then living world and Mordremoth at the start of PoF.

    So if anything, if this expansion and living world season doesn’t resolve the kralk situation, patterns insist that Kralk will die at the release of the next expansion with a new living world focusing on a different threat.

    Certain arguments insist that we follow patterns but then counter their own arguments by declaring that the same thing wouldn’t be done twice. So which is it?

    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

    This, we are in maximum Mcguffin mode right now in terms of the plot. With Taimi and the FMA bros, we will have a "Elder Dragon Magic transfer device" ready, and will use it on Kralk to transfer his power to Aurene, before the LW season is out.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

    This, we are in maximum Mcguffin mode right now in terms of the plot. With Taimi and the FMA bros, we will have a "Elder Dragon Magic transfer device" ready, and will use it on Kralk to transfer his power to Aurene, before the LW season is out.

    To be fair the sire to take his place isn’t a quick and crappy revelation, it’s one of the stories with the longest amount of time and development in GW2 (mostly considering other stories ARE quick revelations)

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

    This, we are in maximum Mcguffin mode right now in terms of the plot. With Taimi and the FMA bros, we will have a "Elder Dragon Magic transfer device" ready, and will use it on Kralk to transfer his power to Aurene, before the LW season is out.

    To be fair the sire to take his place isn’t a quick and crappy revelation, it’s one of the stories with the longest amount of time and development in GW2 (mostly considering other stories ARE quick revelations)

    Also just transfering magic isn't gonna rescue the world. IT doesn't matter if Aurene gets magic from Kralkatorrik, if he dies Tyria dies. Elder dragons aren't just balancing out the magic so that the world isn't gonna die, they are also bound to the all and basically connected to what I would call the pillars of the world. We already removed two of them and we need to figure out how to connect Aurene to the All before killing Kralk.

  • SSE.8150SSE.8150 Member ✭✭

    "> Underwater Combat: While I don't have any personal qualms about underwater combat, many people do. To help, I have a couple ideas.

    One complaint I see often is movement. The additional dimension of the Z axis is fun but can be troublesome to some people. I think the simple idea would be to add a button that allows travel along the Z axis. While space lets you ascend, there is no button, that I know of, that lets you descend. "

    The movement problem can be fixed in settings by assigning a button (I like to use U) for going down and leaving space for up. You can assign buttons by looking at the different bars on right when in your character/account settings in-game.

    "> Additionally, many people have problems with profession balance while underwater, and it's pretty noticeable that some professions excel in underwater combat, and others don't. The solution would be to rework underwater combat for specific professions. Adding new weapons and skills would greatly help. And adding a new underwater mount would help with travel."

    There are different professions that excel on land (like how the engineer is arguably one of the weakest professions) so it would be fair for some to excel below water (like mesmer or engineer). About underwater mounts I believe that there is a mount that can be used underwater (Skimmer) which is sort of its "special thing" other than just hovering.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SSE.8150 said:

    "> Underwater Combat: While I don't have any personal qualms about underwater combat, many people do. To help, I have a couple ideas.

    One complaint I see often is movement. The additional dimension of the Z axis is fun but can be troublesome to some people. I think the simple idea would be to add a button that allows travel along the Z axis. While space lets you ascend, there is no button, that I know of, that lets you descend. "

    The movement problem can be fixed in settings by assigning a button (I like to use U) for going down and leaving space for up. You can assign buttons by looking at the different bars on right when in your character/account settings in-game.

    "> Additionally, many people have problems with profession balance while underwater, and it's pretty noticeable that some professions excel in underwater combat, and others don't. The solution would be to rework underwater combat for specific professions. Adding new weapons and skills would greatly help. And adding a new underwater mount would help with travel."

    There are different professions that excel on land (like how the engineer is arguably one of the weakest professions) so it would be fair for some to excel below water (like mesmer or engineer). About underwater mounts I believe that there is a mount that can be used underwater (Skimmer) which is sort of its "special thing" other than just hovering.

    The biggest problem I have with underwater combat is the fact that you lose half of your available skills and something like a revenant that’s locked out of entire legends. As it is now you would have to change your entire build and gear to be somewhat good at fighting underwater mobs. Some of the skills they lock you out of don’t even make sense and the ones they don’t that are area of effect placeable skills have unpredictable outcomes.

    They would pretty much have to redesign each professions and all of their elites, weapons, and utility skills to make it more than a slow clunky combat that usually just results in kiting.

    But if they have the “deep sea dragon” at some point I fully expect it to have surfaced somewhere like Cantha where it is actually posing a threat to something other than Karka, Krait, Largos, or Quaggans. It could also wind up being in a giant underground area beneath the ocean somewhere.

    I’m not set on a bunch of underwater zones but it would be amazing to see some underground Atlantis-themed Largos city or the ruins of. (Though Orr is kind of already their interpretation of Atlantis.) They could do some really beautiful things with full water zones but I’m not sure they would ever want to undergo that drastic of a combat revamp. Only reasonable solution I could see is having underground zones with multi-layer exploration but the chunk of events being in the underground portion or some kind of bubbled normal gravity dry zones which might be somewhat hard to explain in large quantities.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

    This, we are in maximum Mcguffin mode right now in terms of the plot. With Taimi and the FMA bros, we will have a "Elder Dragon Magic transfer device" ready, and will use it on Kralk to transfer his power to Aurene, before the LW season is out.

    However, to both of you, the major issue with this expectation of poor writing is that it was firmly established that Omadd's Machine was something beyond even Taimi's understanding and that it was one of a kind. Her machine was built off of those one-of-a-kind parts of Omadd's Machine.

    In other words, ArenaNet slapped it in our face that "there can never be a Taimi's Machine 2.0".

    So if they did do such, it'd be a massive shoehorning in. And, thankfully, as bad as some plot points get, they've not yet dug themselves to that level of choppy writing.

    Besides, it's been established that it's more than merely power that makes an Elder Dragon.

    And it's not like it'd be a "new threat detec-oh nevermind it's over" given that Aurene replacing an Elder Dragon has been around since Season 2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    However, to both of you, the major issue with this expectation of poor writing is that it was firmly established that Omadd's Machine was something beyond even Taimi's understanding and that it was one of a kind. Her machine was built off of those one-of-a-kind parts of Omadd's Machine.

    No one says it has to be another Omadd's machine device, also, it may have been beyond Taimi, but they pretty much set up the FMA bros to be the +2s that will help solve the day with whatever plot device they use to remove Kralkatorik. Balthazar built a giant Elder Dragon Death Canon, we could as well.

    Also, that isn't really poor writing. Poor writing would be be trying to drag out the Kralkatorik plot when he was already almost killed at the end of PoF, and when PoF already covered all the big things that would happen in a Kralkaotrik expansion.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    However, to both of you, the major issue with this expectation of poor writing is that it was firmly established that Omadd's Machine was something beyond even Taimi's understanding and that it was one of a kind. Her machine was built off of those one-of-a-kind parts of Omadd's Machine.

    No one says it has to be another Omadd's machine device, also, it may have been beyond Taimi, but they pretty much set up the FMA bros to be the +2s that will help solve the day with whatever plot device they use to remove Kralkatorik. Balthazar built a giant Elder Dragon Death Canon, we could as well.

    Also, that isn't really poor writing. Poor writing would be be trying to drag out the Kralkatorik plot when he was already almost killed at the end of PoF, and when PoF already covered all the big things that would happen in a Kralkaotrik expansion.

    I would be very surprised if they had Old Kralky as the focus of another expansion, as he was already the focus in Path of Fire, however not in the traditional way, since the devs didn’t want to fall into a pattern.

    I think that the next expac, which was mentioned above, would likely be Cantha and it somehow tying to the Deep Sea Dragon.

    Primordus will most likely be the final Elder Dragon that we face, since we have the most history involved in that particular Elder Dragon. Since Jormag is Primordus weakness, I could see an expac in the far shiverpeaks, with a bit of Charr Homelands as well

    Wasn’t Kralkatorrik almost killed in the novel as well?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Personally, given that Taimi had a machine that along with Balthazar influence was able to put two elder dragons back to sleep at one time. This was in the course of what, three episodes or less? Insisting that we won’t be able to find time or a way to deal with one elder dragon in this living season is kind of laughable now that we have THREE asura AND the sire of an elder dragon champion that was raised specifically for the task of taking the position of an elder dragon.

    This, we are in maximum Mcguffin mode right now in terms of the plot. With Taimi and the FMA bros, we will have a "Elder Dragon Magic transfer device" ready, and will use it on Kralk to transfer his power to Aurene, before the LW season is out.

    To be fair the sire to take his place isn’t a quick and crappy revelation, it’s one of the stories with the longest amount of time and development in GW2 (mostly considering other stories ARE quick revelations)

    Also just transfering magic isn't gonna rescue the world. IT doesn't matter if Aurene gets magic from Kralkatorrik, if he dies Tyria dies. Elder dragons aren't just balancing out the magic so that the world isn't gonna die, they are also bound to the all and basically connected to what I would call the pillars of the world. We already removed two of them and we need to figure out how to connect Aurene to the All before killing Kralk.

    One thing to point out is during the cinematic of Taimi’s simulation during flashpoint is that when Primordus and Jormag both die, Tyria goes boom. On the other at the final cinematic on One Path Ends, with Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik, the world slowly begins to crumble, less of a boom as shown in Flashpoint. We could see some interesting effects if Kralkatorrik dies and Aurene doesn’t immediately restore some of the balance. Very end of the world stuff.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    Just because Jormag and Primordus have gone dormant back in Season 3 doesn't mean they won't wake up any time soon. It's been 5 and a half years, and the only thing we know about the deep sea dragon is that he's in the deep sea and his name starts with an S. Any other dragon is more likely than fighting him at the moment.

    @Arahmitz.2196 said:
    Well, I feel like we would be pointed into North now and "save" Jormag, after dealing with Kralkatorrik in LW4.

    Save Jormag from who, though? The Pact? I'm pretty sure we can talk Logan down. Balthazar was dead set on killing Kralkatorrik, which is why we had to kill him in the end. Even Braham, who hated us for discouraging his campaign, seems to be on good terms with us again. Unless Joko suddenly decides to kill the ice dragon -- who is on the other side of the world from his own kingdom -- there is no eminent threat to Jormag.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    Just because Jormag and Primordus have gone dormant back in Season 3 doesn't mean they won't wake up any time soon. It's been 5 and a half years, and the only thing we know about the deep sea dragon is that he's in the deep sea and his name starts with an S. Any other dragon is more likely than fighting him at the moment.

    @Arahmitz.2196 said:
    Well, I feel like we would be pointed into North now and "save" Jormag, after dealing with Kralkatorrik in LW4.

    Save Jormag from who, though? The Pact? I'm pretty sure we can talk Logan down. Balthazar was dead set on killing Kralkatorrik, which is why we had to kill him in the end. Even Braham, who hated us for discouraging his campaign, seems to be on good terms with us again. Unless Joko suddenly decides to kill the ice dragon -- who is on the other side of the world from his own kingdom -- there is no eminent threat to Jormag.

    I think Jormag and Primordus are too connected to each other, to not be dealt with together, since they are each other’s weakness. Plus dealing with two dragons at the same time does deviate from fight a dragon per expansion cookie cutter.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    However, to both of you, the major issue with this expectation of poor writing is that it was firmly established that Omadd's Machine was something beyond even Taimi's understanding and that it was one of a kind. Her machine was built off of those one-of-a-kind parts of Omadd's Machine.

    No one says it has to be another Omadd's machine device, also, it may have been beyond Taimi, but they pretty much set up the FMA bros to be the +2s that will help solve the day with whatever plot device they use to remove Kralkatorik. Balthazar built a giant Elder Dragon Death Canon, we could as well.

    Also, that isn't really poor writing. Poor writing would be be trying to drag out the Kralkatorik plot when he was already almost killed at the end of PoF, and when PoF already covered all the big things that would happen in a Kralkaotrik expansion.

    I would be very surprised if they had Old Kralky as the focus of another expansion, as he was already the focus in Path of Fire, however not in the traditional way, since the devs didn’t want to fall into a pattern.

    I think that the next expac, which was mentioned above, would likely be Cantha and it somehow tying to the Deep Sea Dragon.

    Primordus will most likely be the final Elder Dragon that we face, since we have the most history involved in that particular Elder Dragon. Since Jormag is Primordus weakness, I could see an expac in the far shiverpeaks, with a bit of Charr Homelands as well

    Wasn’t Kralkatorrik almost killed in the novel as well?

    Kralk wasn't really the focus of this expansion. The former god Balthazar was the focus. Kralk was just the target of the kitten of a god. I would say this Living Story will deal with Joko and then trying to find a way to replace that big Dragon. Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.
    And with the next Expac I don't want another Nostalgia trip so close after this one. Anet should go somewhere where no one here was. Woodland Cascades, Magguma Wastes and the entire map east of Ascalon. There is enough space for quite a few expansion. And I would it would be good for GW2 to show that they can build an expansion on a new region rich with new amazing lore instead of just living in the shadow of the Lore of GW1.

  • Alek Seven.2374Alek Seven.2374 Member ✭✭✭

    . Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.

    Sorry to make you sad but the Weapon he was talking about was the Dragonblood Spear, which was destroyed by the PC to prevent Balth getting it.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alek Seven.2374 said:

    . Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.

    Sorry to make you sad but the Weapon he was talking about was the Dragonblood Spear, which was destroyed by the PC to prevent Balth getting it.

    The dragonblood spear doesn't fit with how Vlast described the weapon. The weapon he talked about was described as powerful enough to change the shape of the world, powerful enough to fell Elder Dragons. The spear itself... just can kill Krakatorrik thanks to his weakness.

  • Alek Seven.2374Alek Seven.2374 Member ✭✭✭

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Alek Seven.2374 said:

    . Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.

    Sorry to make you sad but the Weapon he was talking about was the Dragonblood Spear, which was destroyed by the PC to prevent Balth getting it.

    The dragonblood spear doesn't fit with how Vlast described the weapon. The weapon he talked about was described as powerful enough to change the shape of the world, powerful enough to fell Elder Dragons. The spear itself... just can kill Krakatorrik thanks to his weakness.

    Vlast: The war god hunts me. For the power I carry within and the weapon in the prophet's shadow.
    Thats clearly the Dragonsblood spear. If Kralk dies, it will clearly change the shape the world.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Alek Seven.2374 said:

    . Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.

    Sorry to make you sad but the Weapon he was talking about was the Dragonblood Spear, which was destroyed by the PC to prevent Balth getting it.

    The dragonblood spear doesn't fit with how Vlast described the weapon. The weapon he talked about was described as powerful enough to change the shape of the world, powerful enough to fell Elder Dragons. The spear itself... just can kill Krakatorrik thanks to his weakness.

    It’s more then that, but here is the quote from the story journal.

    We also learned more about the true purpose of Glint's legacy: to preserve Tyria's magical balance by replacing Elder Dragons with equally powerful but less predatory entities. And we discovered why Balthazar was hunting Vlast: Kralkatorrik's blood, both literal and metaphorical, is its unique weakness, meaning Vlast, Glint, and the dragonblood spear were all viable weapons against Kralkatorrik...and so is Aurene.

    Vlast is talking about the Legacy and the personal weakness of Kralkatorrik.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2018

    @Alek Seven.2374 said:

    . Perhaps we even find a clue where the weapon, Vlast was speaking of, can be found. And that could be, where we are heading in the next Expac.

    Sorry to make you sad but the Weapon he was talking about was the Dragonblood Spear, which was destroyed by the PC to prevent Balth getting it.

    That's what the Commander thought, but honestly...

    Vlast: To hold the weapon is to hold the fate of Tyria in your hands—the power to change the shape of the world.
    Vlast: Potent enough to fell the Elder Dragons. Its might should not be taken lightly.

    Vlast: It was created so mortals could do the work of dragons, of our line.
    Vlast: To combat cataclysmic power and prevent the destruction of all life.

    Vlast: He seeks it for the wrong purpose. We're not ready.

    Where does any of that matches the description of the spear? Besides, we know Balthazar wasn't after the spear, but after Vlast.

    The spear does not hold the fate of Tyria in their hands. The spear may be able to fell a Elder Dragon, but it cannot fell multiple Elder Dragons like this weapon can. And it does not allow mortals to do "the work of dragons" let alone give them the power to combat cataclysmic power and "prevent the destruction of all life". Furthermore, if Vlast says mortals are not yet ready for the weapon and the weapon is the spear why did Glint give the spear to Destiny's Edge? Vlast never questioned his mother, so Vlast wouldn't think mortals not yet ready for the spear if Glint apparently thought they were.

    And the same applies to anything we currently know about Glint's legacy (which itself isn't an obtainable object but a plan, an abstract thing).

    All this implies that "the weapon" is something that can allow a non-dragon to perform the same duties and have the same strength as an Elder Dragon. And the Dragonsblood Spear is not that.

    Vlast thought Balthazar was after him because he wanted the weapon. But Balthazar just wanted Vlast himself for the sake of powering the Warbeast.

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