Increasing Cooldowns = Bad

If you take an over-performing skill, and increase its cooldown, it's still just as strong as it was before. The only difference is the frequency in which you can use it.

For example, when ranger Gazelle was hitting for 20k on its Charge attack, Anet reduced the damage value significantly (by nearly 50%) instead of doubling the cooldown. This was the right decision. However, if Anet had just added 10 seconds onto the cooldown and left the rest of the skill the way it was, it would still be an issue.

Also, increasing cooldowns slows down the pace of the game. This is NOT good, especially in a game with such an active/reactive combat style.

Back when HoT was first released, Druid felt fast paced and fun to use. Increasing the cooldown of Celestial Avatar by 5 seconds just made the specialization feel weak and slow, despite still retaining all/most of its strength. This leads to the most recent Skill Split thread. Here, Anet is going to increase the cooldown by another 5 seconds. This change essentially doubles the cooldown we used to have, while most of the skills still function exactly the same.

Too Strong : Less Frequent = BadBalanced : More Frequent = Good

I'd strongly recommend readjusting number values on the skills and reducing/leaving cooldowns the way they are. Slowing down the pace of the game isn't healthy in my opinion.

Thoughts?

I think both balance tools are needed and should be used. Overperforming damage numbers need to be addressed by damage reduction; increasing cooldowns doesn't address overperformance if the damage is so high there is no reasonable recovery opportunity or the target is one shot. At the same time players need sufficiently strong tools to punish mistakes, increasing cooldowns emphasizes execution over spam. The key is finding a sweet spot for each balance tool.

Regarding Druid, I would have probably reworked traits that make Celestial Avatar overperform instead of increasing its cooldown again: Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow.

@shadowpass.4236 said:If you take an over-performing skill, and increase its cooldown, it's still just as strong as it was before. The only difference is the frequency in which you can use it.

For example, when ranger Gazelle was hitting for 20k on its Charge attack, Anet reduced the damage value significantly (by nearly 50%) instead of doubling the cooldown. This was the right decision. However, if Anet had just added 10 seconds onto the cooldown and left the rest of the skill the way it was, it would still be an issue.

Also, increasing cooldowns slows down the pace of the game. This is NOT good, especially in a game with such an active/reactive combat style.

Back when HoT was first released, Druid felt fast paced and fun to use. Increasing the cooldown of Celestial Avatar by 5 seconds just made the specialization feel weak and slow, despite still retaining all/most of its strength. This leads to the most recent Skill Split thread. Here, Anet is going to increase the cooldown by another 5 seconds. This change essentially doubles the cooldown we used to have, while most of the skills still function exactly the same.

Too Strong : Less Frequent = BadBalanced : More Frequent = Good

I'd strongly recommend readjusting number values on the skills and reducing/leaving cooldowns the way they are. Slowing down the pace of the game isn't healthy in my opinion.

Thoughts?

They are doing a mix of number adjustments / cool downs. And, from memory (I didn't read every single note very carefully), they seem to be decreasing CDs on underused abilities (Necro dagger mh #2 and #3, or Well of Corruption) and increasing CDs mostly on passive defensive traits (e.g., Elixir S proc for Engi)...

Most heavy hitting abilities (see holo) or overhealing (see druid) are getting numbers adjusted.

Hopefully it's a step in the right direction. Even getting this many splits from PvE is huge in its own right.

@pah.4931 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:If you take an over-performing skill, and increase its cooldown, it's still just as strong as it was before. The only difference is the frequency in which you can use it.

For example, when ranger Gazelle was hitting for 20k on its Charge attack, Anet reduced the damage value significantly (by nearly 50%) instead of doubling the cooldown. This was the right decision. However, if Anet had just added 10 seconds onto the cooldown and left the rest of the skill the way it was, it would still be an issue.

Also, increasing cooldowns slows down the pace of the game. This is NOT good, especially in a game with such an active/reactive combat style.

Back when HoT was first released, Druid felt fast paced and fun to use. Increasing the cooldown of Celestial Avatar by 5 seconds just made the specialization feel weak and slow, despite still retaining all/most of its strength. This leads to the most recent Skill Split thread. Here, Anet is going to increase the cooldown by another 5 seconds. This change essentially doubles the cooldown we used to have, while most of the skills still function exactly the same.

Too Strong : Less Frequent = BadBalanced : More Frequent = Good

I'd strongly recommend readjusting number values on the skills and reducing/leaving cooldowns the way they are. Slowing down the pace of the game isn't healthy in my opinion.

Thoughts?

The same can be said for the reverse.

Decreasing cooldowns is not a good way to balance underperforming skills. Just as how...Increasing cooldowns is not a good way to balance overperforming skills.

Increasing or decreasing cooldowns is a valid say to shift a class from a spammy state (too low cooldowns) to a better spot, and vice versa if a class feels too clunky and needs a cooldown decrease to smoothen the flow.

I understand your concerns that druid might be overnerfed with both numbers and cd reductions taking place next patch, but increasing cooldowns is a very valid way to balance, generally speaking. Honestly though I think nerfs specifically to celestial shadow would be more fitting instead of another cd decrease.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:If you take an over-performing skill, and increase its cooldown, it's still just as strong as it was before. The only difference is the frequency in which you can use it.

For example, when ranger Gazelle was hitting for 20k on its Charge attack, Anet reduced the damage value significantly (by nearly 50%) instead of doubling the cooldown. This was the right decision. However, if Anet had just added 10 seconds onto the cooldown and left the rest of the skill the way it was, it would still be an issue.

Also, increasing cooldowns slows down the pace of the game. This is NOT good, especially in a game with such an active/reactive combat style.

Back when HoT was first released, Druid felt fast paced and fun to use. Increasing the cooldown of Celestial Avatar by 5 seconds just made the specialization feel weak and slow, despite still retaining all/most of its strength. This leads to the most recent Skill Split thread. Here, Anet is going to increase the cooldown by another 5 seconds. This change essentially doubles the cooldown we used to have, while most of the skills still function exactly the same.

Too Strong : Less Frequent = BadBalanced : More Frequent = Good

I'd strongly recommend readjusting number values on the skills and reducing/leaving cooldowns the way they are. Slowing down the pace of the game isn't healthy in my opinion.

Thoughts?

It COULD be. But I think that is too case by case to just make that blanket statement. Your claim assumes that the CD on ALL abilities is perfect as is. Whereas some abilities numbers might be fine (especially utility skills) but the CD is so long in PvP it's almost pointless to take it. I think Necro mh dagger #3 is a good example of where a CD adjustment is JUST right. Ignoring the fact that it self-corrupts the caster (which is stupid in 2018) -- since Anet said this balance patch is not intended to completely redesign abilities -- lowering the CD on an Immob skill (not part of the "burst") is a decent change and improves the life of a dagger mh user (if any exist lol). The #2 ability change is an example where you are correct. The lower CD is NICE and welcomed but the real problem is the life steal isn't based on the damage (but isntead healing power) which is janky for such a long channel ability.

Anyways. Every ability is different. Hopefully Anet recognizes that.

I think it's more about the purpose of the skill. Certain skills are supposed to be bursty. Reducing damage and leaving cool down will remove a burst skills function, whereas increasing the cool down and said skills will reduce how many times you can burst in a match.

They also take wvw onto consideration, there is more time between encounters there so increasing the cool down there usually doesn't have as much of an effect.

You're both right and wrong. I think it's too simplistic to say "Increasing cooldowns = Bad".

Some skills are intended as massive single hits, and these should have a high cooldown to avoid being unbalanced. Sometimes that cooldown is found to be not long enough, so it's increased a bit (or decreased at bit).

Unfortunately, as damage in the game creeps up overall, it can get to a point where the massive single hits turn into unintended one-shots. And then you're correct, the damage should be reduced instead.

@"Deimos.4263" said:You're both right and wrong. I think it's too simplistic to say "Increasing cooldowns = Bad".

Some skills are intended as massive single hits, and these should have a high cooldown to avoid being unbalanced. Sometimes that cooldown is found to be not long enough, so it's increased a bit (or decreased at bit).

Unfortunately, as damage in the game creeps up overall, it can get to a point where the massive single hits turn into unintended one-shots. And then you're correct, the damage should be reduced instead.

I agree with most of this.

Massive single hits still shouldn't be on huge cooldowns. If you had a skill that did 10k damage, a cooldown difference between 20 seconds and 30 seconds really doesn't matter that much in the long run. The fact of the matter is, it still does 10k damage. Even 5k damage is a lot for a single skill.

As an example, thieves have this damage on a spammable Flanking/Larcenous strike coupled with 4k autos. There is no cooldown on these skills, hence they are too strong.

I prefer strong and with a cd high enough to let you consider if and when to use your cd.

Low cd is definitely spamfeast ( like warriors weapons and necros shade skills ).

If you put spam on a class like thief which has to rely on teleport and positioning ( or he dies ) then I will agree with you.

Wooden Potatos put it pretty well in a recent video about the upcoming balance patch.

Increasing cooldowns on "spammy builds" (like scourge) will punish players who just mash buttons and spam, and won't affect players who use abilities more choicefully and deliberately (generally better players) nearly as much. Which is a good balance for "easy to play classes"

@"pah.4931" said:Wooden Potatos put it pretty well in a recent video about the upcoming balance patch.

Increasing cooldowns on "spammy builds" (like scourge) will punish players who just mash buttons and spam, and won't affect players who use abilities more choicefully and deliberately (generally better players) nearly as much. Which is a good balance for "easy to play classes"

Yeah I saw it. I agree with reducing spam. However, increasing cooldowns simply because a skill is overperforming is not a good way to balance. Celestial Avatar isn't a spammy skill. However, the cooldown is being increased simply because the numbers are overtuned. This just slows down the pace of the gameplay but doesn't do anything to reduce its overall strength.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"pah.4931" said:Wooden Potatos put it pretty well in a recent video about the upcoming balance patch.

Increasing cooldowns on "spammy builds" (like scourge) will punish players who just mash buttons and spam, and won't affect players who use abilities more choicefully and deliberately (generally better players) nearly as much. Which is a good balance for "easy to play classes"

It is a bit ridiculous, imo. CA cooldown could be nerfed a bit more if anet REALLY wanted to, but the real problem is the full bar condi clear, stunbreak, stealth, and superspeed. Sure it has to be traited to do that, but no druid in the history of pvp has ever not chosen those traits. A quick bandaid fix could just be dropping the number of condis cleansed to 3 or 4, possibly changing the superspeed to swiftness on CA exit, or even reducing the duration of stealth. Nerfing the base healing also won't do anything, as every druid runs some form of healing power (avatar+mender+magi).