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If you want more build diversity then we need to work on weapons too

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited March 16, 2018 in PVP

Follow me on this...

I have seen maybe a couple of Necro GS builds since HoT released. Players have begged for a competitive power melee necro build, but nothing is done to improve reaper GS or add other weapons to make that happen. Meanwhile, I've seen loads of Guardians, Warriors, Rangers and Mesmers (although it's ranged) using GS builds. So why is there a huge disparity on the Necro GS? It can hit hard, right? yes, ok. But the 1 and 2 skills are super slow and telegraphed.. A bunch of other class melee weapons get positional/movement skills, evades, fast and hard hitting attacks.... But not Necro GS... ... ...

I've not seen an Axe/Axe ranger. Or an Axe/something ranger. Or a something/axe ranger. Not because of damage... It's because there is no movement or utility to main hand axe, that's good for pvp or wvw. Axe OH 5 roots a player (skills that root are bad for movement based combat), and Axe OH 4... you peeps really want us aiming a mini ground skill in hopes it hits all these moving targets (and you wonder why many players don't want to heal with druid or venatri in spvp and wvw on all those moving allies)?

New Soulbeast dagger? Not seen a 1 in wvw. Dagger OH maybe in a niche build, but the damage and utility leaves a lot to be desired...

I could go on and on with various weapon skill designs, but I will lay out what types of qualities make for decent competitive weapons and skills...

-Fast Attacks.
-High Base Damage.
-Movement/Positioning/Tracking Skills.
-Evades.
-Skills that do not root a player.
-Certain skills designs that work well for movement based combat (For example... I would take Healing Rain as a skill, over Sublime Conversion any day).
-Large AoE radius for offensive and support skills (because everyone moves around constantly).

Soooooo... Here we are with the balance patch coming and Ranger Axe gets a damage buff... It's useless, unless it were to be buffed up to like 10k crit hit damage per hit... Ranger axe OH is still useless because of the mini reticle I'm being asked to hopefully get targets to stand still in that narrow path, and axe OH 5 needlessly roots me in place... I'd still take Ranger GS or Sword over dagger MH any day.... Still no truly viable Ranger Condi builds for competitive modes. GS Reaper will still sit on the shelf gathering dust when I enter wvw, and so will hopes for a real quality melee build for Necro, Reaper or Scourge... And the list goes on and on with weapons that just don't work on professions for spvp and wvw, so we are stuck forming all decent builds around those same old weapons that do work.

...The team can change numbers all day long, but I believe you all are missing a huge opportunity to really open up competitive build diversity by not looking through all professions and their weapon skills with a set of competitive eyes. All the current changing of numbers are, more or less, keeping us in the exact same places on each profession.

Edit- And this is what I'm talking about with looking at weapons with a usefulness inside of spvp and wvw too... Yes, I like to add a lil comedy in some of my posts, but I do look at more things from a competitive standpoint and am more serious than not... Would suggestions like the below be perfect? I don't know, but I do know changes like these would open up more builds and options for spvp and wvw, and wouldn't harm anything on the pve side.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9803/druid-changes

“Staff
-We need this weapon to be a better ranged support weapon with useful skills.
Staff 1- Add 1 burning condition to the 3rd attack tick. The low damage and low healing make adding conditions to this skill ok.
Staff 2- Add 1 burning condition and increase radius to 300. All effects hit 5 enemies and allies within the radius. The current 130 radius is not enough to support allies so the increased radius would help. This change would also be a useful for helping to contribute to breaking up the tight zergs.
Staff 4- Make this a circular patch, like all those other aoe patches, and add bleeding. The current cone design is awful to use in any movement based combat, so the aoe design allows this skill to be useful. This would also make the skill useful for zerg breaking and sieging structures in wvw.
Staff 5- Make this skill an aoe dome. The current small rectangle design is as useless as vine surge. This change allows us to support better during mass combat situations.”

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9819/greatsword-changes

“New GS description… Fast attacks, like Reaper Shroud skills (when traited), with moderate damage. Your Necromancer will no longer be crappy in melee because we have finally made useful skirmishing and position skills . Enemies will no longer laugh when they catch you running outside of your zerg because you will be able to fight back now. (Reaper specialization only)
GS 1- Speed up the attacks. Like for real. 1 second chill to balance out the increased attack speed.
GS 2- 600 leap attack. No, not a reticle aiming skill. Ty.
GS 3- Death Spiral… You become a kick kitten drill of dark energy with your blade and dash forward to drill the kitten out of enemies. This drilling rends the armor of foes in front of you. 600 dash range.
GS 4- Nightfall… Teleport to your target and call down a growing column of shadows that damages and applies conditions on foes per pulse. 900 teleport range that uses a ground targeting reticle.
GS 5- All good”

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/568/daggers-need-redo-and-backstab

“Overall, both daggers need complete reworks because they are really mediocre weapons (especially in wvw and spvp) comparatively, but there also needs to be some extra umph to them too… We really need to get our own cool “naturey” version of the “Backstab” skill, but not exactly like “Backstab”, though, more like a stealthy “frontstab” that does a major critical (ya know like up to like 20k on thief). It should also critical like that from the flank too. This would be very balanced because we have this in-game already and the devs are cool with it.
I’m thinking we just add a lot of heavy hitting skills, and some evades, and more movement skills and target tracking and some stealth skills… So something like this revised idea…
Dagger 1- Groundwork Gouge- Add target tracking. 3 targets.
1- Leading swipe – 3 targets.
1- Serpent Stab- Add evade. 3 targets.
FREE Skill from stealth (Just like Backstab)- “Nature Stab” aka Deadly Delivery- 1 target.
Dagger 2- Double Arc- 3 targets.
Dagger 3- Instinctive Edge- 3 targets. “Nature Step” (Just like Steal). Add evade. 10s stealth on hit. 1,200 range. This is the set-up skill for “Nature Stab”.
Dagger 4- Dagger Barrier- 5 targets. AoE damage. Bleeding. Reflects projectiles. Stability. 300 radius. You can move.
Dagger 5- Port-O-Potty- Create a “nature” portal and port to target. 300 radius. 5 target AoE “nature” damage explosion. 1,200 range port. EDIT- This is a ground target skill that can be used on walls and cliffs just like some thief and mesmer skills.
5- Port back to original spot
…Perfection”

Comments

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why does necro need to be good at melee?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    Fun Daredevil

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2018

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Why does necro need to be good at melee?

    Actually already is good at melee with axe/warhorn and death/reaper shroud. And scourge is, yeah, you know it.

    Also, necromancer's greatsword lets you reposition your enemy instead of repositioning yourself and substitute self evades for AoE blind. It might be disappointing, but technically it's not bad.

    (edited for scourge)

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To the OP:
    What you forget to consider is how single weapons can synergize with other weapons, utility skills, and maybe even traits. In theory, they can have their uses, sometimes niche.

    For example, rangers have access to a lot of different combo fields. Axe 5 is what makes you shoot healing bolts combined with your healing skill, or burning bolts combined with your torch skill. Mainhand axe can work too, if they revert it to bounce twice - it was already too strong for pet might stacking so they had it nerfed (personally, I wish they only nerfed the might, but not the actual attack).

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2018

    Tbh I've played several seasons of pvp at typically plat 3 for most of it and I had to do a double take when I ran into an axe ranger in spvp once because I didn't know rangers could even equip axes.

    I was wondering if I should report it as a hack or bug initially but I asked my team and they were like "lol axe ranger" which didn't sound concerning so I just kind of forgot about him.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    I was wondering if I should report it as a hack or bug initially but I asked my team and they were like "lol axe ranger" which didn't sound concerning so I just kind of forgot about him.

    Mainhand axe can be stronger than you think. ;)
    Haven't played with offhand axe, so can't comment on that.

  • pah.4931pah.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First: If they removed the blind from Nightfall I would be so pissed. That ability is the only reason to take GS into PvP and even the trait Soul Eater. It's really good.

    Second: GS Reaper does an OK job in sPvP but the only reason it fails is because it was DESIGNED to be a melee bruiser but the constant nerfs have turned it into an easy-to-kill, fairly high damage class ... but without any evades, invulns, or blocks (NONE... it's absurd) and almost no mobility. So I could agree with you that the GS could be tweaked to address that. Gasping Darkness being unblockable would be cool (since you have to skill shot with it anyways, throw us a bone lol). Gravedigger is lame in both PvE and PvP so I would LOVE a rework (leap would be cool but I'd rather have something defensive).

    Third: Usually the problem isn't so much design of class/weapon ... it's the design of sPvP (I can't speak to WvW). The conquest-only maps mean that almost every time you want the same couple of roles and that means weapons/professions will ALWAYS be optimal for those roles. So with Reaper, for example, I can do really well in gold and lower with GS and Wells and dominating team fights and most 1v1 situations (a good scourge can be tough just because they hard counter melee...) ... but with my low mobility and lack of survivability, other professions will always do better in conquest to either +1 (moving quickly between nodes) or road fighting (quick engage, quick burst, quick disengage) or bunkering on nodes (surivive 1v2 or 1v3 for long enough for friend to arrive)... and obviously reaper isn't going to decap/harass far very well. And that is what you need to win in conquest. Reaper's are AWESOME and fun to play.... they just have no real role in this "conquest-only" pvp world.

    And you can't make EVERY weapon optimal for such a narrow game-type.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    Why does necro need to be good at melee?

    Why doesn’t necro need to have a quality melee build? You and the devs want build diversity?

    Soldier, Adventurer, and Scholar.

    As the devs continue to blur/merge the lines dividing these classes, the game will only march further away from diversity.

    I never understood the idea of having mages try to do what two other groups (6 classes) are much more suited for/designed around (melee).

    But it's not my game, I just play it; I am not right or wrong because I have no say. I can only voice my opinion.

    I wish the devs would make the soldiers better at front-line battle, the adventures better at mid-lining/assassination, and the scholars better at magic/attrition.

    I understand that the game was designed to blur the lines between the traditional groups, but I believe that is one of the root causes for making balancing so hard.

    Keyword is believe, it is literally just a guess.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    Fun Daredevil

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2018

    We cannot have build any build diversity with boon corruption/removal at the current levels.

    We cannot have build diversity when vast majority of burst builds rely primarily on CC.

    We cannot have build diversity when the devs make on overall condi nerf, where only 2 builds on 2 classes where out performing.

    We cannot have build diversity when the devs instead of changing passive skills to make them active, just increase their CDs to make them obsolete. This does not add diversity. It is just lazy, uninspired solution.

    We cannot have build diversity when the devs keep making random number generator buffs to things that are not working, instead of figuring out why they are not working. Like guardian spirit weapon or renegade as whole (among many other things).

    We cannot have build diversity when the solution to an over performing builds is to completely kill them. Like condi thief, condi berserk warrior, condi reaper, power DH, scrapper, etc..

    We cannot have diversity until devs do actual monitoring and understand, not only that something is not working as intended, but why something is not working or over performing. This stupid process of trial and error has to stop, cuz it takes too kitten long and it ends up completely killing a build versus making it viable and not over powered.

    Honestly, it seems the knowledge that devs gained through HoT balance cycle, to ensure that we do not run into the same mistakes in PoF, is null.

    We will not have diversity until there is monitoring.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Airdive.2613 said:
    To the OP:
    What you forget to consider is how single weapons can synergize with other weapons, utility skills, and maybe even traits. In theory, they can have their uses, sometimes niche.

    For example, rangers have access to a lot of different combo fields. Axe 5 is what makes you shoot healing bolts combined with your healing skill, or burning bolts combined with your torch skill. Mainhand axe can work too, if they revert it to bounce twice - it was already too strong for pet might stacking so they had it nerfed (personally, I wish they only nerfed the might, but not the actual attack).

    We can all break down the list of useless and underperforming weapons for the game. The devs, and players, want build diversity so weapons are a part of that equation.

  • well the game uses universal boons and conditions which take away from differentiating classes with unique effects and mechanics. The gw1 system of enchantments and hexes+conditions was a much better system because it allowed functionality differences and not just how many stacks for how long. some functions as just health degen, basically like condi today, but they would be much harsher. The lack of unique effects I think causes a lot of bad balancing and similarities between classes.