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Kyhlo Treb Changes - Do you want this for WvW?
Ben Phongluangtham.1065
ArenaNet › ArenaNet ArenaNet
We recently changed trebuchets in Battle of Kyhlo. We made the treb ground targeted and pulled the camera way up high.
We're curious if WvW players would want the WvW trebs changed in the same manner.
Ben Phongluangtham
Game Designer
Reddit: ANET_BenP
Twitch: AnetBenP
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I'd have to go check this out before commenting. Do the trebs in the PvP lobby work the same?
Not yet... I need to change those at some point.
Ben Phongluangtham
Game Designer
Reddit: ANET_BenP
Twitch: AnetBenP
Purists would probably say no, personally I'm on the fence. On one hand it would make them more easily usable by more people, which means you don't have to hope and pray for an experienced treb-user to be around. And certainly more practical to use in fights.
On the other hand I'm not sure how well this would work for far shots - possibly behind walls/mountains - where you still don't see where you're shooting despite the changes. Would probably work like it does for arrow carts? Which would be suboptimal.
I'm guessing a mode-switch to have benefits of both is not on the table?
It wouldn't be off the table. Leaving the skill driven targeting and just changing the camera is probably possible. Or the other way around.
Ben Phongluangtham
Game Designer
Reddit: ANET_BenP
Twitch: AnetBenP
I definitely wouldn't trade it wholesale, too many possible problems with far shots, which is one of the main uses of the thing. And as it is you can at least tell people to draw to 60% and shoot, for example.
But I'm still kind of curious to try it out in practice, since the conditions are so completely different in WvW. Maybe we can do another siege mini beta like we've had several times before? Might be a good idea to make a new, temporary, extra test-treb instead of overriding the old one, so as not to completely break established gameplay in case of issues.
EDIT: What I meant with mode-switch was having a button to switch between current skill-based targeting and ground-based targeting, like switching between different kinds of ammo. For example I'd use ground-based for artillery support in zerg-fights, while switching back to skill-based for tricky far shots (or just for the purpose of lazily holding down a button
- laziness for the win!).
This is not a good idea for wvw for a variety of reasons. Relying on LoS makes trebs far less reliable because of its range and the arc of its fire. These factors allow better strategic placement of trebs. I would like to see an increase to the FoV when using a treb especially when they are placed against a wall because the camera zooms up into first person view. Maybe decrease the width of trebs idk. This idea might work better for mortars though because of their fixed placements, but might also make them more powerful.
On the other hand it would be useful for people to not have to constantly hold down the fire button and accidently over/under fire.
BG
Yes.
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62658/alliance-design-that-stops-the-qq
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills
this deals with the treb camper. ^^ maybe add as option to old treb as another skill instead?
i have a cripple guild mate and all he can do is treb. press one key with a straw.
maybe like have treb 2 settings?
Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.
The benefit from using a treb currently is that you can shoot above obstacles like hills and that its possible to shoot even further using an elevated position. Ground targeting would remove this two benefits, making them more useless.
Kodash [EU]
If it helps stop the auto macro treb botters im all for it. If not dont really care either way.
Yes, make it ground targetted. While you're at it, move the red keep wall in EBG further back so it can't be trebbed from SMC.
Carnished Toast (Yum)
Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
I like the current state of WvW trebs. Making them too easy to aim would make trebs OP.
Lets not forget that besides hitting walls, trebuchets in WvW can drain structure supplies, can drain player supplies (with cows), can provide water fields.
Building countertrebs would cease to exist if the attackers can just destroy a counter build site without having to adjust through trial and error. Consider the Alpine NE tower, many times that tower is used to pressure Garrison walls with trebs, and if the people in Garrison tend to build a countertreb and/or shieldgens for it. With 2 trebs zeroed in on any build site going up, there would be no chance to take out the offending trebuchet. This situation repeats itself in many different scenarios: SWT vs BAY, NEC vs NET, NWC vs NWT, etc.
Making treb aiming a point and click mechanic just destroys all situational defensive siege placement and makes it way too easy to drain supply and cow enemies while providing water support to allies. These advantages should be earned through experience and/or trial and error adjustments.
You don't need a macro for that. I've used a two pence piece lodged between 2 and 3 keys.
"Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."
Keep it as a skill shot, rather than point and click. Part of sieging is knowing where to build it, and sometimes fast-building before the opponent can react. If they can just click exactly on the build site, it ruins that whole counterplay mechanism.
Considering red keep can also hit smc I don't think this really needs to be changed. Every side has two structures that can hit to and from smc, red has the benefit of doing it from the safety of their keep which does not get flipped often as a tower. The treb that needs to be built from smc to hit the keep also sits right next to or on top of the wall that's usually down from red keep trebbing, and if you can't sneak in a couple people to take that down I don't know what else to tell you other than stop being lazy.
But in any case they don't need to move anything, just make that one wall none breakable like they did for wildcreek, there's still another two to the side of it that can still be broken.
As for the treb change in general, the auto trebbing needs to be fixed, I'm not sure at what point they changed firing shots to be continuous but it just needs to go to get rid of the afkers trebbing for participation. Not sure about the line of sight changes, as it would depend on how high the camera would go. There are many places that require you to adjust and use the right power to hit spots over high obstacles, simple point and click is going to take away some of that skill and also break some of that creative usage. Places like swc camp to south bay wall/gate, se camp to hills inner, nw camp to nw tower, ne camp to ne tower, ne camp to north hills, ne ruins to garrison watergate, nw hills to west hills, klovan to smc.
Another derailing post. ^^
EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
|| Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||
No - no - no. Trebuchets take skill to use. If anything Arrow Carts should also work like trebs and not be point and click
I'd be okay with a change to the camera, but I feel the targeting should remain as it is. Not sure how I feel about using trebs to get better LoS into enemy structures.
I understand why the change was made to the treb in Kyhlo. Those fights are faster paced and the goal is to hit the constantly moving players with the treb.
Here the goal is more to take out enemy siege and break down walls, something that should take more time and is definitely slower paced.
If nothing else, run a test week. Like those mobile cannons, and repair hammers.
~ Kovu
Fort Aspenwood,
Ranger, Necromancer.
I can understand why camera changes may be appealing, particularly when you don't have a spotter. I'm ambivalent regarding that change.
However, I'm not keen on making trebs ground-targetted. At the moment, judging the direction and range takes some degree of skill, particularly when you're under pressure to take out enemy siege before they can do the same to you. As there are precious few cases where using siege requires skill, I'd like to keep this one intact. The main problem with WvW-style trebuchets in Kyhlo is that wasting 30 seconds trying to line up a shot makes a measurable difference to the outcome. In WvW, the pace is much slower.
Lets just do best of both worlds keep the stander treb shot a charged attk with no ground targeting but make the cow shot and water shot into a ground targeting skill with there own cd with no need to swap ammo. Mostly the water shot all thought the cow shot has the same problem is long cd on a high skill shot with different travel time then the normal treb shot. This will let ppl have there skilled treb shots and get more out of the treb then the auto clicker shot players.
PLZ dont do that. wvw already get kitten because of gliding. why you want Change everything you Need experience for? let it as it is. if an experienced Player can use a treb to defend the garrison against several enemy trebs because he is more skilled in estimating range and direction than the others he earned that success. why destroying that by making treb usage completely skilless? this game Need more complexity! not less!
Tried them and love them for sPvP. It really does help make them useful again on kyhlo.
There's a bit of a fallacy in thinking this treb == WvW trebs. In WvW you can choose where to put them, and will usually have someone experienced with their use. sPvP Trebs can't rely in skill to use as if you unlucky enough to have no skilled treb users and get a skilled player on the other team It could decide the match there. WvW trebs are best left as they are mechanics wise.....
....Would like a ping on the map where shots land though
how about we try it and keep or revert based on feedback?
I would definitely welcome it. Only drawback could be that the vision might be used to gain an advantage in some situations.
TRY IT and revert if necessary imo
Smugly chuckling forever.
My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.
haha my gank squad will be null.
Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.
just remove siege, walls and doors
Why So Serious?
Wouldn't this just make it easier for auto trebbers? Just have mouse pointer at location on screen and have their button clicks at interval between +0.0-0.x random second off cooldown? Then they could just automate it to change mouse cursor position every few mins. At least this is what I imagine they'll be doing.
I think for me, keep trebs as it is, I think it is at a good place with really skilled trebbers able to use it and guestimate with little time to kill other sieges or hit walls etc. After using trebs a lot, people should be able to "feel" out distances and what power needs to be used - it is actually quite fun when you just kitten on the enemy countering their trebs/siege and cowing them all the time when they build it in new places and they wonder how come you can get them so fast when it's all just having good experience knowing your treb. This is also like mortar, being able to quickly disperse enemies by being able to quickly judge distance and power needed. Once you have used these things in specific locations over time, it comes naturally being able to judge distance/power and knowing when to turn the siege.
Like some others have stated, keep it like it is so it requires skill and experience in knowing placement of treb & power needed for shots.
@Ben Phongluangtham.1065
Why not use the wonderful poll feature of this forum to answer your question?
Oh, and by the way, aren’t we still missing the poll about gliding?
No more afk trebbing? Yes please!
The Treb in Kyhlo is only for a small map, that most time you have LoS to target, in WvW the Trebs are used for greater distance, imagine trying to hit SMC from North Keep, with LoS most people probably wont have settings that high to see that far, also you wont beable to treb over mountains etc, you may need to trial this for a week to see how this works.
For now I personally would say keep them how they are for WvW.
This actually sounds like a great idea to me, as the cow and water shot are mostly used over shorter distances anyway.
Only if they make it so red keep can't treb SMC anymore. It's a little ridiculous that the biggest objective in the game mode only has the inner gates protecting the fort from being capped because the walls are down 90% of the time.
This sounds good as well.
OR give us a switch that changes charge mechanic to ground-target mechanic (if engine even allows such thing?). There are some places treb shot needs to go over a mountain/through a small gap.
[NUKE]
Would this stop trebs at Hills stop being able to hit the tower below it? If so, then yes! I think that Treb needs a range reduction over all, towers hitting keeps, keeps hitting towers all while having siege spam around it stopping the treb from being destroyed
Ben, I'm in love
But I'd rather the inverse and see arrow carts, cannons and ballistae become a skill shot like trebs, mortars and cats.
[HUNT] the predatory instinct
if you want to increase precision with trebshots, it would help alot to see a % while charging, same for cata. but groundtarget as others pointed out will require to see your target wich is a nerf to trebs.
read this, become a better player now.
I think the new treb changes in pvp are pretty cool. makes for some very interesting play, and also enables a player to shoot the treb where they need to quickly, so they can return to the fight faster. However, I noticed there is an issue when using it while using the action camera mode. Functionality while using action camera mode is a little odd, as if you try to shoot the treb somewhere far away, the camera angle will try and lower back down to behind the player. I think the action camera in itself needs some looking into, but the treb is real nice with the current changes.
The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.
Keep in mind something I don't think I saw mentioned is that with big camera angles changing, being able to see into keeps and towers is a big thing, from stacking for a surprise push or portal bomb, would not work very well if the person on the treb could call out their actions and placement, as well as siege placement inside structures which is hard enough to place to defend vs someone who knows what they are doing. This would allow easy and total siege clearing with a treb.
Some slight changes to camera might be nice without going to far, however mortars would be far better to get camera changes as it is now you have a massive reduction in viewing when getting on them, and they are fixed, I mean it's a mortar and you cant even use #5 to hit close placements on walls, add onto that, how about when using #5 close, it actually shoots up and back down like a real mortar and not just more or less roll out of the tube and hitting the wall doing absolutely nothing. in other words the flight time of the shell should always be the same, but the arch adjusts, so close shots it would shoot really high straight up and then come back straight down, why they work like trebs right now, I have no idea.
No thanks for the reasons mentioned by others. I did like Jski's idea of only for the other shots though.
Some QoL changes for trebs would be great, but this particular change probably won't work out.
As others have mentioned, a % charged indicator would be helpful and a ping on the map where the projectile hits would go a long way too.
Can't we have a green arrow that extends while charging to see where the shot lands, instead of making it like the pvp treb?
I would find it more useful for mortars then for trebs.
I'm not going to say no right away without trying it at some point, but others have expressed the same concern I have regarding sight. It depends upon the camera change. As was pointed out, trebs can hit farther if they are placed higher up. Sometimes that means they hit out of range of your camera, you see numbers, but don't see exactly where it hits. Examples: treb at alpine hills placed to hit southeast tower, treb at EBG red keep placed to hit Anzalias, treb at Alpine northeast camp placed to hit north hills wall. Additionally, there are some treb spots that don't use LoS at all and usually someone has to spot the shot for it to get aimed correctly: treb in Klovan to hit south SMC wall, treb at Desert southwest camp to hit air keep south outer wall.
I'm concerned that the change would affect the viability of these siege locations.
I personally like this change a lot. I think it would give new ways to scout, too.
I vote for adding this feature to WvW too.
"Sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never be able to injure you!"
The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy
Although it may help with easier targeting, it can cause more problems.
For example it is very common to have a treb in Red EB keep to defend and reopen Orgrewatch.
Or you have trebs at the cliff near Anza to treb the inner of Red EB keep.
Or the treb at the back or orge camp to treb orgre watch.
Or one of the many SM to almost every tower in EM treb spots.
These and many more have distances that the original devs probably didnt take into account, and so these trebs can fire a lot further than what was originally thought possible.
So if you want to make this change and still allow players to use the above treb positions, the map would have to zoom out quiet far!
Or the range of the trebs would have to be fixed like arrow carts.
I on the other hand always thought you should add a follow treb feature.
I think it was on the big EOTM canon, if you fired a shot your camera would follow the shot, and you can see where it hits.
Yeah some minor changes would be cool but not ground target.
Good ideas skimming through I saw:
Idk if a compass degree rotation thingy would be desired or not for some true aim precision.
Anet buff me :-(
Make me good at game!
As long as the attack frequency isn't increased, and overall damage stays the same regardless of distance to the target considering projectile flight time, I'm all for it.
This method of controlling trebuchet is way more friendly towards new players and way easier to understand and use on the first try, and since WvW is a mode where we can't control that much who's in our team, the better off the worse players are, the better off everyone is.
At the very least it should be put on a trial basis, and if it works, consider this method too for catapults and/or mortars.
☆ SUGGEST-A-TRON
Well, for the most part a lot of siege is really poor to use.
I mean AC users either have to glitch their camera or have to guess where they're aiming to be effective. So maybe a revamp in all siege wouldn't be a bad idea.
If its demonstrated to become too powerful with new camera and aim modes you can always just increase cooldowns or tone down the damage.
My opinion is the spvp treb and the wvw Trev are used for different reasons.
The spvp treb is used to attack and damage players while the wvw one is for immobile structures like walls and gates.
If you want the treb in wvw to be used as a player to player weapon like arrow carts - I could see this change do great success. You could however - make turtling easier. Since a wvw Trev has a knock back effect and vicous aoe damage and longer range - it could be a perfect defense weapon against players in wvw. Way better than arrow carts.
Have to test this and see how the meta changes. A treb with better accruacy for wvw can be deadly against attacking zergs. A aoe stun knock artillery weapon would be juicy for defense and turtling.
Right now trebs are used for seige in wvw. This change will make them strong as an artillery weapon versus players. Be careful. I personally like the change but I always love non player direct combat with seige and sniping stealth and cheating haha.