Countering Deadeye's Mark?

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · March 16, 2018

What's the best way to deal with being marked by a Deadeye in WvW? Or, if you're a Deadeye, what sorts of things do you worry about your opponent doing?

I don't play much thief, so I'm not very good at putting myself into their "sneakers" (that's "American" for running shoes or "trainers"). I know that one option is breaking LoS, but that's rarely practical, especially in a 2:2 where the thief's roaming partner is in a bunker build (can't leave off attention from the 2nd opponent, can't easily hide, and yet there's this Mark of Damocles hanging over my neck).

Are there profession-specific tricks? Can I assume the thief will wait for max Malice and dodge then? I'm assuming there are some viable tactics and I'm not simply doomed against any competently stealthy renegade.

Thanks in advance.

edit: my apologies for mangling the name of the elite specialization; I meant Deadeye, the thief elite.

yiksing.9432 · March 17, 2018

Renegade has marks?

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · March 17, 2018

@yiksing.9432 said:Renegade has marks?

Sigh, I mangled the name of two elites I don't play. I'll fix it above.I meant Deadeye. My apologies.

Doctor Hide.6345 · March 17, 2018

Honestly, save your dodges if marked and wait for a red laser pointer aimed at you; you then proceed to dodge the DJ. Max Malice usually takes around 15-25 seconds to fully point out which is when the DE will usually take a shot. Yes, we can re-apply instantly the mark, but we have to reveal ourselves to mark you again. Basically, dodge when you see the laser pointer on you then you start to give chase and engage if you can catch them.

If you can't, focus on the partner or someone else because it will be some time before he can try to one shot you again.

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · March 17, 2018

Thanks. How long does revealed last, assuming reasonably competent thief, typical build?

DeceiverX.8361 · March 17, 2018

Generally depends on the situation at hand.A good DE will wait until Malice is capped and utilize DJ for the bomb. A lot of noobs however spam Three Round burst due to the lack of reveal (if not cast from stealth just as it ends) and it's generally higher damage before malice caps out. This is easier to handle and sustain against in general as you'll know where they are (think P/P Bound Daredevil), but you need to be quick to try and close the gap and force the kill.

Generally, the best strategy to not be killed by a DE is to just relocate. They're generally played SA/Tr/DE or SA/CS/DE and depend heavily on BP+HS to stack stealth as well as stealth via traited rifle kneel and just endlessly rotate this, which cuts their mobility a ton, so default running with swiftness and just running away will usually be a good enough deterrent.

If you're forced to fight... it's a lot harder now than before if they're good due to the persistent malice stack change on re-mark. If used to be that when their malice capped, they either used a skill when it capped (DJ) for the nuke, or just lost the malice altogether. This meant the burst was pretty predictable because it'd always need to come in 21s increments which if you conserved your resources and didn't panic, you could pretty much always sustain through.

These days, it's a bit harder to actually combat them. Utilizing Meld, depending on the weapons/utils/traits you run, they can retry DJ with capped Malice whenever they choose to after that 21s mark because they'll have permanent stealth and will keep the stacks forever unless you full-reset. The timer is totally up to them, so you need to be pretty quick to react to the laser more than anything. If they're really good, they'll use kneel rifle 2 to immob to deny a dodge as well, so a cleanse needs to be at the ready.

SA DE won't have stun-on-mark because it competes with stealth-on-kneel, so the use of a cleanse to cure immob can be way more important than a stunbreak, as they won't have BV as meld is pretty much mandatory. This makes blocks and projectile hate work well, too.

If you have burst in your build and ranged CC on a fairly low cooldown, you can win via counterburst if you're really forced to stay and fight. In a lot of cases, they'll depend on using Shadowstep offensively, and usually don't run another stunbreak, so you can out-rotate their play while they try to cast Meld + any stealth ability (BP+HS or Kneel) and interrupt and just kill them.

If you don't have ranged pressure and CC or lots of gap closes and CC, projectile hate/blocks, or serious power burst damage (SA makes thief basically immune to condi builds unless used with heavy taunt/fear), I'd just move away and look for another objective. In the 2:2 situation, the other bunker will be tied down to move at-speed with the DE, so you'll know if they're keeping pace or not.

Generally, the goal should be to rush the bunker down in that first 21s block and kill it before it's a problem. Keep your HP high and always conserve an out if the DE reveals himself early as a half-malice TRB can still take half-health people down. Otherwise, just ignore the bunker except for its CC. If the DE is attacking in this period, rush and kill it, instead, because then the bunker is free.

Warrior, DH, Mirage, and especially soulbeast can be very strong into the DE matchup. Just be mindful of the mark and what the DE is doing and be ready to dodge as soon as you see the line of the projectile path to your character. LoS is also pretty good to use since again, it's not very mobile if it's in stealth.

Otherwise there's really not much else to it. A good DE is virtually impossible to kill unless you really set yourself up to be able to kill them. OTOH, it's very limited in how well it can pursue kills, so you're often more than capable of just resetting the fight yourself and running away.

Edit: Revealed always lasts 3s, including from DJ, however the elite skill Shadow Meld cleanses reveal and provides 3s of stealth and has 2 ammo on a 45s recharge. It does have a 1/2s cast, however, so it can be interrupted if you're quick on the draw to do so. Because of this elite, skills like Sic 'Em, Analyze, etc., are pretty ineffective, as are reveal traps, so don't waste the supply.

As a side note, we use the phrase "in your/their shoes" in the US. Can't tell if that was a joke or not though :P

Dawdler.8521 · March 17, 2018

On my gs/sc/sw mirage I pick one of two options - either just disengage into an objective or do heavy los (ie go behind something big, not try to fit my fat head behind a thin tree) or I wait a couple of seconds and start cycling blocks while "running away". Most de's are highly predictable and will pop dj if they see you run away. Its often possible to counter-attack once they show themselves but if its a de with an actual brain instead of mush he will of course swap to d/p and be gone within a second. In these cases a fight isnt worth it and I will refer to the first point.

yiksing.9432 · March 17, 2018

As a DE that abuses the hell out of stealth, I'm worried when people abuse los then I have to swap to d/p or s/d to fight them but I haven't had any problems with rev except for the occasional hammer, staff huge hit.

Illconceived Was Na.9781 · March 17, 2018

Great. Thank you all.(I'm probably still gonna die most of the time, but at least I'll know why I'm dying ;))

bq pd.2148 · March 17, 2018

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:Yes, we can re-apply instantly the mark, but we have to reveal ourselves to mark you again.mark is not instant and you dont need to reveal yourself to reapply.
@DeceiverX.8361 said:Generally, the best strategy to not be killed by a DE is to just relocate. They're generally played SA/Tr/DE or SA/CS/DE and depend heavily on BP+HS to stack stealth as well as stealth via traited rifle kneel and just endlessly rotate this, which cuts their mobility a ton, so default running with swiftness and just running away will usually be a good enough deterrent.
just running with swiftness is often not fast enough, but to get away running is a good option. in most cases a single person is not enough to threaten a deadeye.These days, it's a bit harder to actually combat them. Utilizing Meld, depending on the weapons/utils/traits you run, they can retry DJ with capped Malice whenever they choose to after that 21s mark because they'll have permanent stealth and will keep the stacks forever unless you full-reset. The timer is totally up to them, so you need to be pretty quick to react to the laser more than anything. If they're really good, they'll use kneel rifle 2 to immob to deny a dodge as well, so a cleanse needs to be at the ready.laser is good, but allways play with sound. i can shoot without laser but i am not sure if i can cancel all the sound tells.SA DE won't have stun-on-mark because it competes with stealth-on-kneel, so the use of a cleanse to cure immob can be way more important than a stunbreak, as they won't have BV as meld is pretty much mandatory. This makes blocks and projectile hate work well, too.
in a 1 vs 1 scenario i dont need BV and if i know my opponent tries to reflect/ block the shot i often switch it in as i do not get in combat from marking. regarding block and reflects many underestimate the power of cursed bullet , the stealth autoattack of rifle. that one is also unblockable and can hit well over 10k.Warrior, DH, Mirage, and especially soulbeast can be very strong into the DE matchup. Just be mindful of the mark and what the DE is doing and be ready to dodge as soon as you see the line of the projectile path to your character. LoS is also pretty good to use since again, it's not very mobile if it's in stealth.id say soulbeast and dh are really strong , warriors are easy to kite if you got space and mirage, well the ones that are on power can mostly be killed with a backstab.
good write up from deceiver, just felt like i need to add minor commet here and there :D
Otherwise there's really not much else to it. A good DE is virtually impossible to kill unless you really set yourself up to be able to kill them. OTOH, it's very limited in how well it can pursue kills, so you're often more than capable of just resetting the fight yourself and running away.

getting killed by a deadeye and killing a deadeye is just mindgame. the deadeye needs to trick you to take the shot in most cases for this he can, shoot without laser or try to bait a movement skill and shoot you during it or what happens alot people begin to jump waiting for my shot - dont do that. during jump you cannot evade if i immobilize you in the air you often cant do anything.for you to kill the deadeye you also need to bait him. give him a reason to attack at a location of your choice, especially if you outnumber him. in alot of outnumbered situations i still see my target trying to avoid being hit before i even shoot. but often they could rez faster then i can stomp anyway and they could possibly kill me if i attack. i get revealed on attack so they can jump me, if my attack is successfull and i try to stomp i am very vulnerable for that duration. i will mostly be in stealth but i often cant do a port stomp if i down my target on range and he has nearby allies i will use my shadowstep to start the stomp, so bombing your mate will kill me then and worst case only avoid the stomp.when you are alone and are a power mesmer / thief / FA ele you might be able to counter burst after a noncrit backstab ( a deadeye using DJ against those is either stupid or assumes their oppnent is stupid/unaware) on most other classes you need to hope the deadeye makes some serious mistakes.

what i do think could actually be killing me easily is a soulbeast but the ones that are good with their bursts dont run the autoprocs and the ones running them often are too slow. they can trait to survive lethal damage in beast form and activate signet below 50%, so if i oneshot them they will still be alive and immune to direct damage and can counter burst me. i have recieved auto hits for 60% of my hp from soulbeasts so i guess a quickness knockback + rapidfire when those traits trigger and you got a good chance i am dead. ( knockback to interrupt shadowmeld ofc, casting shadow meld during rapid fire is suicide.)

Doctor Hide.6345 · March 17, 2018

@MUDse.7623 said:
@Doctor Hide.6345 said:Yes, we can re-apply instantly the mark, but we have to reveal ourselves to mark you again.mark is not instant and you dont need to reveal yourself to reapply.