Applied Force....Useless or Solid trait?

Title says it all..... I'm gonna go with completely useless/out dated trait that doesn't really fit into the scrapper trait-line imo.

Out of the 3 grand master trait line between theirs seem to only be 1.... that makes the most sense to really use at the moment and possibly after the balance patch only 2 to even consider using depending on your play style/enemy team comp of course.

Adaptive Armor - Great trait however doesn't work at all due to the bug it current has going onFinal Salvo - Best trait-line to pick up due to the stability and super speed given after gyro explode which works well with rapid regenerationApplied Force - Completely useless due to only getting quickness for 3 seconds after reaching max threshold of might

How often does 1 have max might threshold on a scrapper and how useful is this quickness for scrapper to be selected over the other two grand master trait-lines?

Discussion/debate about this subject because IMO this trait is completely wasted on a class like scrapper.

@Chaith.8256 @Vagrant.7206 @Ario.8964

This trait saw a lot of use with the drunk engineer build from @Ivantreil.3092, but otherwise it's never seen mainsteam use. The problem is that scrapper rarely generates enough might to trigger it without the use of HGH from the alchemy line. You generally also have to have a relatively steady stream of stability (which engineer doesn't naturally generate) coming in for mass momentum's effect to also trigger.

Generally speaking, it doesn't fit thematically or mechanically with the rest of scrapper, and the bonus of quickness is wasted on the hammer anyway, as it lacks a lot of spike potential when compared to something like rifle. Now, it might be more useful if the stacks required to trigger it were lowered to 6 or 7, because then it could get triggered way more often. But scrapper generally doesn't get to 10 might by itself without HGH.

All of scrapper's grandmaster traits boil down to choosing which is least shitty atm, especially since Adaptive Armor is either bugged or just plain bad. Other elite specs focused around "tanking" such as Herald or chrono also have a trait at each level that you have the option to choose that helps your damage/burst like Elder's Force and Chronophantasma (technically), but Applied force, nay all of the Scrapper's analogous options are worse.

@"BoundlessCreation.8906" said:All of scrapper's grandmaster traits boil down to choosing which is least kitten atm, especially since Adaptive Armor is either bugged or just plain bad. Other elite specs focused around "tanking" such as Herald or chrono also have a trait at each level that you have the option to choose that helps your damage/burst like Elder's Force and Chronophantasma (technically), but Applied force, nay all of the Scrapper's analogous options are worse.

ya i can't argue against that but i honestly think adaptive armor (is the best) pick if it gets fixed especially if your going to be spec for team support during battle that -20% on condi damage is great but at the moment it doesn't do jack.... + the fact barrier proc at 1 and stay at 1 ALL game.

I would like to see something for a grand-master trait-line that enhances the gyro a bit more overall kinda how the tool trait-lines enhances the gadgets a fairly good amount and makes each gadget a little different.

Adaptive Armor is a cool concept, but Scrapper doesn't have even nearly enough barrier to benefit from -20% condi dmg. Even condi scourge will blow this barrier away (unless the 1 barrier bug triggers).Other traits are in very bad state too. Final Salvo is good but it doesn't improve the gyros themselfs, only their spawn and destruction effects (similary to Expert Examination - "purity of purpose"-type fix please?)Applied Force is... Meh. Scrapper hardly benefits from quickness (maybe with Rifle, but it has been said over and over again why is this weapon not good), and with all boon stripping and corruption (Spellbreaker and Scourge) is a waste of space.

Applied force would be a much cooler trait if mass momentum was a more popular option. The thing is scrapper doesn't have much reliable sustain/bulk available to it outside of building for gyros and regen so they often can't afford to invest into something like MM which then shuts out traits like AF. The other traits for scrapper suffer from either being useless or just not good enough to allow other build styles to come out. Build styles that could prove to be very potent in pvp.For example:

• Adaptive Armor would be a better pick for scrapper if the condi damage reduction was a permanent bonus again or if scrapper had reliable ways to apply and keep barrier on (the second one is a bit more risky cause if you buff it too much you can get bunker god scrapper).-Expert Examination would be worthwhile if it applied those conditions on any cc, not just stun and daze and possibly add a "heal for 'X' when you apply weakness or vulnerability to a foe" factor to the trait. This allows it to be more useful to setups focused on cc rather than gyros but a gyro setup would still be the best option for pure sustain and regen-Imo, scrapper needs access to stab that isn't reliant on PW or FS. Right now, if you don't take those you will get perma cced and your barriers/cc/etc. will mean absolutely nothing.
  • Applied force should either be changed to a 5 stack threshold with quickness being applied when striking a foe or changed to grant an increase in cc effectiveness (knockdowns, stuns, and dazes would have a 25% increased duration and knockback would have an additional 150 distance added to it, when landing ccs on targets with stability you remove an extra stack or apply 50% of your cc if they have 1 stack) This makes it much more fitting as an aggressive trait which focuses on allowing the scrapper to out trade their enemy and be incredibly oppressive with cc.

With changes like those I could see a scrapper using MM and AF in combination with PW to maintain might and quickness in combat (assuming they go with the first option) allowing them to win trades more consistently. Or possibly a setup that focuses on decapping in sustained 1v1 fights using a combination of AF, EE, rifle, and blast gyro. (assuming they go with the second option)

It's been awhile since I've seriously dedicated time to scrapper so I may be out of touch with it as far as change suggestions go but this is what I could pull out of the air.

I play scrapper as a tanky cleanse support with gyros and protection condition cleanse.

I find it fun and easy. Just do decent damage and pop medic gyro bunker gyro cleanse gyro and try to cc the enemy

I don't think a DPS solo scrapper is ever coming back. Scrapper feels and plays like a support build.

its very solid when you camp flamethrower in an open world tagging build but that build sort of just is what it is: low dps, low brain usage, high tagability.

@"Ario.8964" said:Applied force would be a much cooler trait if mass momentum was a more popular option. The thing is scrapper doesn't have much reliable sustain/bulk available to it outside of building for gyros and regen so they often can't afford to invest into something like MM which then shuts out traits like AF. The other traits for scrapper suffer from either being useless or just not good enough to allow other build styles to come out. Build styles that could prove to be very potent in pvp.For example:

• Adaptive Armor would be a better pick for scrapper if the condi damage reduction was a permanent bonus again or if scrapper had reliable ways to apply and keep barrier on (the second one is a bit more risky cause if you buff it too much you can get bunker god scrapper).-Expert Examination would be worthwhile if it applied those conditions on any cc, not just stun and daze and possibly add a "heal for 'X' when you apply weakness or vulnerability to a foe" factor to the trait. This allows it to be more useful to setups focused on cc rather than gyros but a gyro setup would still be the best option for pure sustain and regen-Imo, scrapper needs access to stab that isn't reliant on PW or FS. Right now, if you don't take those you will get perma cced and your barriers/cc/etc. will mean absolutely nothing.
  • Applied force should either be changed to a 5 stack threshold with quickness being applied when striking a foe or changed to grant an increase in cc effectiveness (knockdowns, stuns, and dazes would have a 25% increased duration and knockback would have an additional 150 distance added to it, when landing ccs on targets with stability you remove an extra stack or apply 50% of your cc if they have 1 stack) This makes it much more fitting as an aggressive trait which focuses on allowing the scrapper to out trade their enemy and be incredibly oppressive with cc.

With changes like those I could see a scrapper using MM and AF in combination with PW to maintain might and quickness in combat (assuming they go with the first option) allowing them to win trades more consistently. Or possibly a setup that focuses on decapping in sustained 1v1 fights using a combination of AF, EE, rifle, and blast gyro. (assuming they go with the second option)

It's been awhile since I've seriously dedicated time to scrapper so I may be out of touch with it as far as change suggestions go but this is what I could pull out of the air.

This is a very good idea. I made some trait change theories as well, check them out. But your idea is also so solid, I really like this. I'm thumbs upping this.

I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

If you're going solo or randoms in PVE, applied force isn't that bad. I won't always have self quickness, and getting 10 stacks of might is pretty easy if you camp the hammer. Then again, I would like the trait to do more, because currently it only occupies the "good when everyone else is bad" niche. I'd prefer a trait that gives me stuff even in peak conditions.

you can get perma quickness with applied force, mass momentum, juggernaught and elixer u, not sure how useful it is with flamethrower, but it´s fun in PVE

@padreadamo.3986 said:Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)

Singlehandedly saving Med Kit with this one GM trait lol. I'd go right back to my Static Discharge build if I had this.

I think also if Applied Force would change the way might works, like taking away a lot of condition damage gain, or all of it, and making might grant you more power damage, it would change a lot as well. It would make sense for the Scrapper trait line too, since it's more focused on mitigating damage, and dishing out power damage. It would open up a lot of build choice not only for a bruiser style build (especially with a flamethrower), but also maybe some burst options as well.

@Ghos.1326 said:I think also if Applied Force would change the way might works, like taking away a lot of condition damage gain, or all of it, and making might grant you more power damage, it would change a lot as well. It would make sense for the Scrapper trait line too, since it's more focused on mitigating damage, and dishing out power damage. It would open up a lot of build choice not only for a bruiser style build (especially with a flamethrower), but also maybe some burst options as well.

As well, Rapid Regeneration needs to be moved to the minor slot, where decisive renown is. I think this would help promote big synergies with all of the Scrapper's major traits. Decisive Renown can then be a major trait, being a choice between that and the other 2 in the major master line.

@Ghos.1326 said:I think also if Applied Force would change the way might works, like taking away a lot of condition damage gain, or all of it, and making might grant you more power damage, it would change a lot as well. It would make sense for the Scrapper trait line too, since it's more focused on mitigating damage, and dishing out power damage. It would open up a lot of build choice not only for a bruiser style build (especially with a flamethrower), but also maybe some burst options as well.

Applied Force - Gain 120 Power. Might Boons convert to Applied Force every 10 seconds. Applied Force (Cantrip) changes Might Boon to (+30 Power per stack, -30 Condition Damage)

@padreadamo.3986 said:

@Ghos.1326 said:I think also if Applied Force would change the way might works, like taking away a lot of condition damage gain, or all of it, and making might grant you more power damage, it would change a lot as well. It would make sense for the Scrapper trait line too, since it's more focused on mitigating damage, and dishing out power damage. It would open up a lot of build choice not only for a bruiser style build (especially with a flamethrower), but also maybe some burst options as well.

This is also a neat idea. i likey <3

@"padreadamo.3986" said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

Hey man! What about the Tool Kit? Where's the luv? I happen to think keeping my turrets well maintained is part of a good engie's duty! (lol)

@DKShang.8792 said:

@"padreadamo.3986" said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

Wow I suck.Gain Quickness and Might while wielding the Tool Kit :)

@padreadamo.3986 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

Med kit would be busted with your suggestion. You'd have complete immunity to condi just with that one combo so no. Egun would be busted with inventions condi removal but I care less about that one since it's only 1 condi per pulse. Med kit should be regen instead.

That being said I love this idea.

@Ario.8964 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

Med kit has no offensive capability though, so really you'd only be able to use your utilities against a condi build. It wouldn't be broken in PvP, it would just be really weird.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

Bring it on a static discharge build and you have resistance on demand for condi bombs while being able to keep up offensive ability. And what do you do when you get a full bunker decap engi who runs med kit for perma resist? No condi build can affect him and engi has plenty of damage reduction available to stall out power builds for a long time.

@Ario.8964 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:

@DKShang.8792 said:

@padreadamo.3986 said:I really wish Juggernaut applied to ANY kit. It would allow better synergy and more options for Applied Force. Currently, you have to dive into Firearms to get great consistent synergy with this trait or use Elixirs in your utility slots.

-edit-One can change Juggernaut to function as though "streamlined kits" does with its different effects on each kit...Gain Resistance and Might while wielding Med Kit (lol.)Gain Stability and Might while wielding FlamethrowerGain Protection and Might while wielding Elixir GunGain Fury and Might while wielding Bomb KitGain Retaliation and Might while we wielding Grenade KitGain Aegis and Might while wielding Mortar Kit

Applied Force suddenly has more synergy. This makes for some difficult choices to make which is what we should have at this tier.

There's no reason not to just let this happen.

its a great trait for pve , bad for pvp when you consider your alternatives

I don't think it's that bad in spvp. Using applied force with the rune that gives might on hit you can do decent sustain damage. However yea it's not very good in wvw. Pve it is ok but not that good.

I think applied force is a DPS trait in the scrapper line.