Ultimately, the most frustrating problem in this game's pvp is...

The lack of windows that you have to retaliate.

Power mesmers go down fast, but can you even squeeze damage, let alone burst them in their almost infinite repertoire of damage evasion? Is it really feasible to release your CC / opener when the chances it'll be avoided are incredibly high? It's either that, wait out their cooldowns or get a miraculous read on their game pattern. All of these are incredibly skewed in favor of the mesmer / class with lots of damage avoidance because even if you do land it, it will be stun broken or simply EM'd away, and if you wait it out you're at their mercy.

These builds and traits are the most infurating to deal with. Just when are you supposed to attack? Obviously mesmer pushes this notion to the limit, but we have warrior gs3, shield block, 2x ep on top of the regular dodges. Druid staff 3, bow invis, CA, sword evades, etc. Anything thief, etc.

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though). Holo is almost there but the double elixir S, the stability and the spectrum shield are pushing that class in the same direction. It's clear that chaining invulns is what makes a class viable in this game, and at the same time what makes them so forgiving and easy to excel with.

So just, nuke the amount of invulns across the board. Every class has access to 2 dodges, but some have considerably higher vigor uptime or traits that replenish vigor in flat amounts. Wasn't Energy sigil nerfed hard in pvp because of this? Give everyone bigger windows for counterplay, and if someone WANTS to spec for damage avoidance, then deny them the massive damage that a DPS oriented build would have.

I'm aware changes of this caliber would require a huge revamp but tbh, this pvp system will never be balanced as long as such massive damage avoidance disparities keep existing between classes.

I'd forgotten about that. Energy sigil was nerfed by 50%. Also vigor effect was actually nerfed by 50% for a short period (so 50% endurance regen). Then they turn around and give some classes infinite evade. Its actually funny seeing how confused these guys are at balance rofl.

They literally said they wanted to stop thieves from evading so much. Then they release daredevil.

@Razor.6392 said:The lack of windows that you have to retaliate.

Power mesmers go down fast, but can you even squeeze damage, let alone burst them in their almost infinite repertoire of damage evasion? Is it really feasible to release your CC / opener when the chances it'll be avoided are incredibly high? It's either that, wait out their cooldowns or get a miraculous read on their game pattern. All of these are incredibly skewed in favor of the mesmer / class with lots of damage avoidance because even if you do land it, it will be stun broken or simply EM'd away, and if you wait it out you're at their mercy.

These builds and traits are the most infurating to deal with. Just when are you supposed to attack? Obviously mesmer pushes this notion to the limit, but we have warrior gs3, shield block, 2x ep on top of the regular dodges. Druid staff 3, bow invis, CA, sword evades, etc. Anything thief, etc.

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though). Holo is almost there but the double elixir S, the stability and the spectrum shield are pushing that class in the same direction. It's clear that chaining invulns is what makes a class viable in this game, and at the same time what makes them so forgiving and easy to excel with.

So just, nuke the amount of invulns across the board. Every class has access to 2 dodges, but some have considerably higher vigor uptime or traits that replenish vigor in flat amounts. Wasn't Energy sigil nerfed hard in pvp because of this? Give everyone bigger windows for counterplay, and if someone WANTS to spec for damage avoidance, then deny them the massive damage that a DPS oriented build would have.

I'm aware changes of this caliber would require a huge revamp but tbh, this pvp system will never be balanced as long as such massive damage avoidance disparities keep existing between classes.

Hell yeah man, well said.

Chaining defense is a HUGE problem in this game. Defenses should be a get out of jail free card, that gives the ability to reset the fight and maybe turn it around. But only once. As it stands, many classes can just chain them together. When paired with base dodge, high mobility and some times stealth, it creates TOO many chances to reset the fight. All of which, if played right allows you to loop defenses.

*Invulnerability skills should be rare, kind of like your elite defense card

• Evades on skills should be changed to block, so there is counter play
• Stealth should have a damage penalty if you burst out of stealth, with the exception of thief special stealth skills

The biggest problem is high invuln/evade up time essentially. It is obvious to everyone except anet. In fact it has been the biggest problem for years. It is probably the main reason why this game declined so rapidly.

I have no idea how they tested against specs like the mesmer with 20 seconds of chained invulns/blocks/evades and decided it was fun. In fact I have no idea how they tested this and decided it was even acceptable to release. A lot of classes are the same. Gw2 pvp's main issue is that it isnt fun at all. And it isnt fun due to frustrating mechanics like perma-invuln classes.

It will NEVER change. Trust me. They won't change it. So if you, like others, think it is a big deal then just go and find another pvp game to play. There are many that has regular updates for things like balance and who focus on making compelling game play in both directions (i.e. mechanics fun to fight with AND against)

Another problem to consider with defensive abilities is how easily can you act during the defense. Normally you can't attack while dodging. Some defense abilities allow you to act without consequence from being hit.

@Razor.6392 said:

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

So, Unrelenting Assault 2sec evade + Duelist Preparation 2sec block + Surge of the Mists 1 sec evade + Infuse Light 3sec invu + Riposting Shadows 3/4 evade + 2 evades + endurance gain from riposting shadows is balanced.Obsidian Flesh 4sec + Arcane Shield 3blocks + Lesser Arcane Shield 3blocks + 2 evades and access to vigor is balanced.But Blurred Frenzy 2 1/2sec + Distortion (let's say 4sec even if very rarely you'll get that much) + 1 Mirror from False Oasis 1sec evade + 2 evades and access to vigor isn't.

Good to know.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

Duelist preparation no longer exists. It was replaced a few months ago.

Also unrelenting assault is 1 1/2 secs. Infused light has counter play, you don't attack them. Riposting shadows is a defensive skill. It has no offensive component attached to it. Evade is only overpowered when its attached to a offensive skills. And chained with other defensive skills that allow them to easily escape or continue their offense without taking damage.

@Aza.2105 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

Scrap the Duelist Preparation then and change values of unrelenting assault. Still as much evade/block/invu as mesmer.Indeed Infuse Light has counter play but it's still invu.

So, the problem now is not the evade/invu/block uptime but doing so and attacking at the same time? So dozens of skills and traits across all professions including the previously mentioned Ele and Rev.

10 complaint threads not enough ,need a new one..eh...Dont mind going against FA eles? They oneshot you with a macros on full your health in 0.1 second while they run away ,kite and do whatever they want. What a fun thing ! Rev indeed isnt strong right now , after all nerfs he might see some plays. And yes , FA is hard to kill alone because you need to survive his 3s invul and his 2 blocks ,if u dont attack him or hit 6 times before he could take actual damage while its take 0.1s of instant burst that oneshot you FUN. You should think about saying something like that xD

@Aza.2105 said:

Evade is only overpowered when its attached to a offensive skills. And chained with other defensive skills that allow them to easily escape or continue their offense without taking damage.You exactly described a thief here by the way. Frenzy does way less damage than pistol whip, cant be spammed, doesnt have heavy CC there. Good job, lets hammer this pesky theives!Rev chain evades,low cd block and heal that heal him to full hp. Riposte shadows not only evade, remove movement impairing conditons PLUS restore some endurance ,before it was ridiculous ,entire dodge bar ,not even broken in slightest :)WHY NOONE MENTION DAMAGE AUTOPROCS? Its ridiculous ! Its not makin game more stupid than it is ?

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Razor.6392 said:

There's a reason why people don't mind going against rev or FA ele. They do a lot of damage, but their invuln periods are small and predictable. They're well balanced classes (FA burst a little unfair atm though).

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

Alright the problem now is not the evades/block but the condi cleanse?!You all need to make up your mind on what's the problem, so far: Burst damage OP, Condi Cleanse OP, Evade Uptime OP, Mobility OP, Phantasms OP, Instant Interrupts OP, Attacking and evading at the same time OP, Stealth OP, Bursting from stealth OP, Clones OP, Sustain damage not OP but will get there soon I guess.

Jaunt doesn't evade.Adventure runes and energy sigil are allowed for every profession to use.As I said before you'll rarely have 4 sec distortion and subsequently 3 mirrors.Staff 2 doesn't evade.Apart from all that, OP was talking about power mes.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

Stealth isn't neither a block nor evade nor immunity.Excepting portal, thief has a lot more mobility.Infinite stunbreakers - dependent on the level of endurance which is already getting axe'd.Dealing damage with no telegraph - See the giant flying greatsword coming at you, now that's the time to dodge. And again can we count the amount of professions that do the same?

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

If your whole argument is just being obstinate I'm not going to bother.

PvE professions team makes what they think is cool without thought to PvP.

PvP team tries to make lemonade...

@"pah.4931" said:PvE professions team makes what they think is cool without thought to PvP.

PvP team tries to make lemonade...

The PvE professions "team," given the way that some devs here have reacted to certain bugs or issues which needed correction, is almost certainly not a team, but rather random, single individuals who just ended up making their own, respective flavor-based designs within an idea vacuum (which is to say, yes, they don't give thought to PvP, but we have to understand that there isn't even a cohesive team associated with these designs either; that's how bad it is). That aside, I don't think the PvP team could make water from a tap much less lemonade.

@Swagg.9236 said:

@"pah.4931" said:PvE professions team makes what they think is cool without thought to PvP.

PvP team tries to make lemonade...

I like to give the pvp team more credit because they are so hamstringed. They can't do anything with how this game is designed and balanced (and not tested).

It's time to nerf mesmer

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

Agreed with Ryan. If you're going to completely ignore the points others are putting forth and trying to argue that mesmer is balanced, then you are clearly off base with what the grand majority of the rest of the playerbase thinks.

I like how you try to completely discount what stealth adds, and conveniently ignore what portal provides as well as fail to mention that Mind Wrack has zero telegraph. That alone tells me how incredibly biased you are, so I won't bother arguing further- all you have to do is look at what everyone else is saying.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

There are plenty of mesmers giving many suggestions for appropriate nerfs that will leave the class competitive compared to what everyone else is offering.

Stealth is strong but with 5 seconds total stealth in most builds it’s not perma stealth.Portal was the only reason Mesmer was viable preHoT and only then when supported by a high tier team. It still needs a good team and voice comms to use well.Mind Wrack has a tell. It’s called clones running towards you. You can cleave, dodge, invuln, block, etc the clones to prevent the damage.

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

Could you quote some of the ones you think are good? I'm genuinely interested.

Stealth is strong but with 5 seconds total stealth in most builds it’s not perma stealth.Portal was the only reason Mesmer was viable preHoT and only then when supported by a high tier team. It still needs a good team and voice comms to use well.Mind Wrack has a tell. It’s called clones running towards you. You can cleave, dodge, invuln, block, etc the clones to prevent the damage.

Actually, the clones don't run towards you if they're close enough. Chronos have super speed on shatters which makes it harder to dodge. Mirages can cc you every few seconds as well which makes the shatters hard to avoid. Not to mention that having 10 clones out at the same time is really confusing especially when some of them have melee attacks and appear as if they are running towards you. And, although it's necessary to keep track of all of the phantasms, it's impossible because there are so many.

The clones don't die fast enough to cleave unless you can hit 5k repeatedly in an AoE. Most classes don't have enough dodges to avoid a constant onslaught of high damage skills. The same goes for invulns. I've been hit for 11k through a block by a Disenchanter, although I didn't actually see it because of how many other AIs were cluttering the screen.

The only way to avoid the clones is to kite REALLY far away.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Ryan.9387 said:

Just from the mesmer build which is winning monthly ats:

Blurred FrenzyJaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Jaunt (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Dodge (condi clear)Heal (adventure runes) Dodge (condi clear)Weapon swap (energy sigil) Dodge (condi clear)Illusionary AmbushDistortionDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorDistortion MirrorStaff 2Portal

And half that will be off cd by the time you are done going through that. You literally cannot die unless you are stupid or get 3v1d.

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

You wanna add stealth, insane mobility, and ability to attack consistently while also evading attacks AS A CLASS mechanic to the mesmer description? Infinite stunbreaks, dealing damage with absolutely no telegraph? Add that too.

Stealth is strong but with 5 seconds total stealth in most builds it’s not perma stealth.Portal was the only reason Mesmer was viable preHoT and only then when supported by a high tier team. It still needs a good team and voice comms to use well.Mind Wrack has a tell. It’s called clones running towards you. You can cleave, dodge, invuln, block, etc the clones to prevent the damage.

Limit illusions to 3 clones and 3 phantasms. Its extremely unlikely Anet will revert the phantasm changes(which is fine) or try and split them between game modes so putting a hard limit is the best option. This will also help solve some of the other problems. With a 3 phantasm limit you cant spam them unless you want to overwrite them which is pointless if running Chronophantasma as you want them to attack the second time. It prevents them from being spammed period as, again, overwriting them before they can attack and turn into clones is counterproductive. This also will prevent the F5, SoE, end F5, SoE that is giving most people problems because it wont work.

Rework Confounding Suggestions. By reworking the trait to do something, anything other than turn a daze into a stun you will break the synergy between it, Mental Anguish, and Mantra of Distraction. GS mesmer burst hits hard from stealth due mainly to this and Superiority Complex(also needs a slight nerf of the numbers). CS makes GS shatter easy mode because does the work for you and and with the passive damage boosts for anyone without stunbreaks its GG. I'm open to suggestions as to what would be a good trait to replace it with but it either needs gone or moved to Adept or GM level as its too strong in its current placement.

Reduce Swordsman, Defender, Disenchanter, Zerker, and Shield phantasm damage by 15%. We know these phantasms are the hardest hitters and a 15% base damage reduction, while small, is a good place to start as the numbers can always be tinkered with individually.Reduce damage on Shatter Storm. Reduce Mind Wrack damage by 25% when Shatter Storm is equipped so it functions similar to the GS GM trait. Or replace it as I see no reason it was introduced in the first place.

Compounding Power- Reduce damage increase to 1.5%. Self explainatory

Phantasmal Force- Reduce Might duration to 8 seconds to start with.

Sympathetic Visage- 3 Phantasm Limit should reduce effectiveness, if not 3 second icd.

Persistence Of Memory- Put a hard cap on the amount of boons transferred to reduce the amount you can gain similar to how Signet of Inspiration currently works. Or allow it to transfer X number of boons and received boons are RNG based.

There's more around I cant think of them atm.

As you noticed the proposed changes will limit the number of illusions on the field making it easier to keep up with everything and will prevent as many GS spikes because rather than spamming MoD you actually have to set up a proper shatter which will have many people moving to something else thats faceroll. And if CS is removed Mirage cant stun as often, etc.

@pah.4931 said:PvE professions team makes what they think is cool without thought to PvP.

PvP team tries to make lemonade...

Except scrapper and spellbreaker were almost certainly designed with PvP primarily in focus. Spellbreaker got buffed in PvE to make up for it... scrapper got nothing.

Stealth isn't neither a block nor evade nor immunity.Excepting portal, thief has a lot more mobility.Infinite stunbreakers - dependent on the level of endurance which is already getting axe'd.Dealing damage with no telegraph - See the giant flying greatsword coming at you, now that's the time to dodge. And again can we count the amount of professions that do the same?

I'll correct you on stealth - it does prevent you from being attacked by targetted abilities. Though I personally think stealth is fine, you aren't doing anything useful while you're in stealth.As for thief having more mobility, that's false. Used to be true, but now mesmer actually keeps pace with thief. Portal actually gives mesmer more mobility than thief - they can keep pace with thief without using portal, with portal they are basically more mobile now.

@Legatus.3608 said:

Stealth isn't neither a block nor evade nor immunity.Excepting portal, thief has a lot more mobility.Infinite stunbreakers - dependent on the level of endurance which is already getting axe'd.Dealing damage with no telegraph - See the giant flying greatsword coming at you, now that's the time to dodge. And again can we count the amount of professions that do the same?

True, it doesn't prevent other skills tho.As for thief mobility vs mirage:dash x 6 (3 + 2 from signet +1 from channeled vigor) + shadowstep + infiltrator's arrow x2 + a lot of swiftnessmirage thrust x3 (1 from crystal oasis) + phase retreat + blink + 3 x jaunt + 3sec superspeed

As I said exclude portal and thief still wins.If you're talking about in combat mobility it's even worse.

@"Ragion.2831" said:I'd forgotten about that. Energy sigil was nerfed by 50%. Also vigor effect was actually nerfed by 50% for a short period (so 50% endurance regen). Then they turn around and give some classes infinite evade. Its actually funny seeing how confused these guys are at balance rofl.

They literally said they wanted to stop thieves from evading so much. Then they release daredevil.

....mesmer and warrior are typical cases of "dev's class"...happens in every MMO, somehow involuntary biased balance when it comes to the profession they enjoy playing, we know who mains a warrior...and we know who mains a mesmer