Taking bets on how long until IH is nerfed

The EM nerf went against all advice we gave them, and I think a lot of people that used to run it will start running IH instead. How long do you guys think it will be before ANet decides that it needs to be nerfed in a very strange way that does nothing to make it any less powerful but does make it significantly less fun to play with?

Since it's Anet we're talking about, "as fast as possible" is in about 2-3 months.

How aboutInfinite Horizon was never intended as an offensive trait, but as survival for clones and an addition to the core mesmer "hide among your clones" gameplay aspect. Therefore we have changed the skill to better reflect this intent:Ambushes performed by clones will no longer apply conditions, boons, daze or additional damage over a respective autoattack.In addition to its previous effects, taking infinite horizon will now have clones appear as having all boons and other effects of their mesmer master when targeted by enemy players.

So now that ambushes still interrupt clone attacks, taking IH will result in them dealing less damage than without it. Genius!

It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

In all seriousness, that's actually how I always wanted IH to work, and then just massively buff several of the personal ambush attacks. But yea, I can see thathappening

@Exciton.8942 said:It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

It was nerfed in the worst possible way, without even fixing what was OP about it, because ANet listened to the people complaining about it instead of listening to the actual mesmers who have been trying to get it balanced since before it was even in the game.

The same is going to happen to IH. ANet will listen to the whiners, and now thatmore people will be running IH there will be even more people whining about it. And then Anet will balance it off of that.

Once enough people moan about it in the pvp forum. I'd give it by the Summer/Q2 balance patch.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

EM is still BiS for most of the builds though. Some might like to give IH a chance now but isn't that exactly what Anet wants to see?

@Exciton.8942 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

You're not wrong, but there are a lot of subpar mesmers out there who won't use it well with exhaustion tacked on, and they will perform better with IH. Just because its BiS doesn't mean that everyone will be most effective slotting it, and when enough people in that situation figure it out and switch to IH, then everyone else will whine an dwhine and whine over it

I mean a-net also didn’t take all the feed back to nerf us into oblivion.

Exhaust is pretty bad, but by the time the second wave came around they weren’t listening to anyone regarding Mesmer lol.

As for IH nerfs. Probably something to do with toning down condi at the supplemental seasonal update assuming it gets to big with the toned down defenses everyone else got.

@Exciton.8942 said:It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

I disagree. EM was the better choice but I imagine you’re going to start seeing people swap to IH and then the complaints will start rolling in about how many interupts we now have using sword.

@Exciton.8942 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:

@Exciton.8942 said:It will not.

EM is nerfed because it is quite OP. IH is not even close to being OP in PvP.

EM is now worse then taking no GM trait at all.

I've always used IH over Elusive Mind (plat t2-t3). People are now forced to take IH and will realize how awesome this trait is (and annoying for the enemy), so it will definitely get nerfed for next season.

Next patch. 10g

The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

@OriOri.8724 said:In all seriousness, that's actually how I always wanted IH to work, and then just massively buff several of the personal ambush attacks. But yea, I can see thathappening

What are you talking about? Character balance which doens't inherently rely on a specific combination of traits, gear, sigils and skills? What's next, actual game balance?!

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

Uh oh, that makes me worried - they might not nerf IH, but instead nerf individual ambushes into uselessness if not taking IH. :o

@Curunen.8729 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

Just imagine the QQ when all the sword clones start flying around interupting everyone. It’ll be glorious.What kills me is all the complaints about Mesmer boils down to they are too strong in a 1v1. So... the class designed around well... dueling.... is strong in a 1v1.... who would have thought?

@Jace al Thor.6745 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

Oh yeah, sword ambush with IH is for sure going to get a lot of hate. Going to be an interesting few months.

@Curunen.8729 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

Well I mean if I’m being brutally honest it’s a trait that amplifies the power of ambush skills (in condi builds) by 2-4 times depending on how many clones you have. Objectively it’s up there with chronophantasma in terms of poor design where it offers extraordinary gains for a single trait on a single skill. However nerfing the ambush skills makes them really bad and pointless without the trait but I don’t feel like you can nerf the IH trait.

Having said that it would be interesting to do a comparison of something like the damage increase from a +10% damage trait which applies across all skills and traits vs those that massively buff a singular aspect like only ambush attacks or phantasms. I dunno if Pyro has any experience in this or has seen any examples as he’s far more experienced than I am and has known frifox.

Having said that I honestly don’t think IH when you look at the whole trait line really stands out as being any more overbearing than other elite specs. I mean let’s not forget the insane damage of holo, the tankiness of SB and how F.C. refreshes burst skills, shroud skills being such oppressive AoEs, weavers insane evade and regeneration ability, druid kiting/tankiness, DD evade spam or FB support.

Edit: not seen Pyro around for a bit, has he been banned yet or is he just avoiding the lynch mob?

@apharma.3741 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

To me it’s not about the damage IH has the potential to do as our condi builds have been nerfed significantly without useful confusion stacks. I feel that once people start running IH with sword all you’re gonna hear is how no one can attack because they’re constantly being interrupted along with the perma invuln we’re accused of.

I think he is avoiding the mob. I believe he posted something the other day but can be sure. I know I’ve made plenty of people mad in the PvP forums and am being restricted to how often I can post :(

@apharma.3741 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@apharma.3741 said:The exhaustion thing is a lazy and poor nerf but it doesn’t make EM any worse as it’s still broken on a conceptual level, unless you were eating stuns all day long and never dodged a CC.

IH is crazy strong for bursting conditions, some people have already picked up on it and it absolutely destroys potatoes. I’ve even seen streamers get roflstomped by IH condition builds mostly because they tank it not knowing what/how to dodge it. I would expect it will get calls for nerfs after EM has been SBooned to 10s exhaustion and no condition cleanse.

Oh yeah it's difficult to balance right now - personally I think if IH was a minor trait such that the entire Mirage line was built around clones being able to evade and ambush, it would be a more secure foundation from which to balance. They could adjust damage and cc (sword and trident tbh) knowing that all Mirages would have this trait - which also fits thematically with the spec.

I've not seen anything either - but tbh sensible to sit back and watch right now while people vent their grievances.

Not banned, but I said my piece on EM already. The trait was busted to begin with and it's busted now. Just need to use different definitions of busted. With any luck it'll get replaced with something more sensible in a year or so when they get around to looking at things like that again. In the meantime IH will be the best choice for most builds and the cycle of PvP whine will continue.

There are going to be LOADS of complaints about IH. For the most part these complaints will be unwarranted of course and there will be a really odd nerf that makes the trait unappealing. The only sensible nerf would be to reduce the potency of the secondary effects applied by every clone type similar to what they did with Ether Barrage and Imaginary Axes. So GS clones casting Split Surge only apply a single stack of vulnerability per hit and clones casting Chaos Vortex apply condis with half the duration. Sword clones are limited by daze stacking anyway unless you happen to have your sword clones spaced out at intervals where they each individually land their daze which is going to be rather rare.

Then suddenly, the thing no-one expected, everyone complains about Dune Cloak :lol:

@apharma.3741 said:Then suddenly, the thing no-one expected, everyone complains about Dune Cloak :lol:

Of course, it's insta-cast like shatters - NEEDS 3s cast time on dodge!!11!