So... why would you ever use Dagger over Axe in PvP/WvW now? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So... why would you ever use Dagger over Axe in PvP/WvW now?

Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

Seems like a no-contest.

Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

Comments

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭

    Dagger offers pretty good utility, as well as boon interrupt and a stun upon interrupt, as well as mobility.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • With how bad daggers look on paper right now without playing, I guess mace main hand it is. :wink:

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Dagger is more a 1v1 weapon, so in Wvw? maby for roaming.

    -unblockable boons rip
    -Fast daze or stun + boon rip
    -slow on Aura slices wich will help you setup disrupting stab for a stun

    Dagger is very usefull to rip boons and be annoying to fight against if you rely on blocking...
    Dagger is not for its damage, this weapon is to make your opponent vulnerable (gap) so THEN you swap to your second weapon to deal some burst attacks.
    Thats what its about. and it can still be very good at this point, better then Axe...

    That doesnt say Axe can be better in 1v1 in some situations where your opponent doesnt rely on blocking/boons..

    They are both great weapons.. but IF you go for Spellbreaker.. then you might still want to use Dagger because of the traits. wich can help allot

  • Keyba.9570Keyba.9570 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't use ace as a spell breaker. You will have a better time using it on core warrior because your eviscerate damage is based on the amount of adrenaline you have. You have 1 adrenaline bar max on spell-breaker to use at a time, so it will be super weak. Dagger auto hits like a noodle, but you should see it as a set up weapon for your burst with great sword or hammer.

  • Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Scorci.3250Scorci.3250 Member ✭✭

    @Keyba.9570 said:
    Don't use ace as a spell breaker. You will have a better time using it on core warrior because your eviscerate damage is based on the amount of adrenaline you have. You have 1 adrenaline bar max on spell-breaker to use at a time, so it will be super weak. Dagger auto hits like a noodle, but you should see it as a set up weapon for your burst with great sword or hammer.

    not 100% sure but level 1 eviscerate does close to or more damage than dagger burst, i think axe throw in its current state alone is a good trade off for the setup ability of dagger especially with the damage nerf and aura slicer nerf

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    That's true.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Keyba.9570Keyba.9570 Member ✭✭✭

    @Scorci.3250 said:

    @Keyba.9570 said:
    Don't use ace as a spell breaker. You will have a better time using it on core warrior because your eviscerate damage is based on the amount of adrenaline you have. You have 1 adrenaline bar max on spell-breaker to use at a time, so it will be super weak. Dagger auto hits like a noodle, but you should see it as a set up weapon for your burst with great sword or hammer.

    not 100% sure but level 1 eviscerate does close to or more damage than dagger burst, i think axe throw in its current state alone is a good trade off for the setup ability of dagger especially with the damage nerf and aura slicer nerf

    the boon rip + unblock able give a dagger the slighter advantage on a spell-breaker. Especially if you have the Loss Aversion trait.

  • bLind.6278bLind.6278 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2018

    cant delete for some reason

    There's a 95% chance I'll be warned for this post, regardless of what it says.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2018

    Mobility on a mainhand that isn't sword is invaluable.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [Balance is not going to happen Play whatever is easiest.]

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    Logging out forever.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    Yes, Merciless Hammer needs a serious rework.

    The Hammer is not a Condi weapon, not is it even a hybrid like Sword: it is a straight-up Power CC weapon.

    There is also the problem of it competing for a spot between Berserker’s Power and Might Makes Right - two of the best traits available to Warriors. Even if using a Hammer, you’d never want the Hammer-specific trait over either of those.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Red Haired Savage.5430Red Haired Savage.5430 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 28, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    Yes, Merciless Hammer needs a serious rework.

    The Hammer is not a Condi weapon, not is it even a hybrid like Sword: it is a straight-up Power CC weapon.

    There is also the problem of it competing for a spot between Berserker’s Power and Might Makes Right - two of the best traits available to Warriors. Even if using a Hammer, you’d never want the Hammer-specific trait over either of those.

    Not to mention that by the time the CC is over (hammer f1 or hammer 5) half or more (depending on sigils) of the confusion is already gone, and the way it's re-worked you have to use a skill for the confusion to do anything.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    i loved old hammer gs roaming, but the animations are so kitten slow that most players will easily dodge your stuff and even if you land it, all classes got easy condi breaks often with way less cd than hammer cc's
    alone the mirage dodge stunbreak is a joke that should be deleted, or atleast get a frickin internal cd of atleast 10sec, better more

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    i loved old hammer gs roaming, but the animations are so kitten slow that most players will easily dodge your stuff and even if you land it, all classes got easy condi breaks often with way less cd than hammer cc's
    alone the mirage dodge stunbreak is a joke that should be deleted, or atleast get a frickin internal cd of atleast 10sec, better more

    elusive mind is not only a stunbeak for mirage but also a condi clear, even without the stunbreak of that trait many mesmers would still take it because it allows you (in combination with jaunt (the teleport ultimate that also clears condis on every teleport used)) to NOT take any further condi clear skills. The stunbreak on dodge of elusive mind is simply op and should be removed completely.

  • Star.8401Star.8401 Member ✭✭

    dagger burst is useful in zergs if traited for additional boon strip. daze is also nice on dagger 3

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Star.8401 said:
    dagger burst is useful in zergs if traited for additional boon strip. daze is also nice on dagger 3

    hammer is way better for stripping boons in a zerg...

  • Red Haired Savage.5430Red Haired Savage.5430 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 5, 2018

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Star.8401 said:
    dagger burst is useful in zergs if traited for additional boon strip. daze is also nice on dagger 3

    hammer is way better for stripping boons in a zerg...

    Hammer is pretty amazing for SB isn't it. Multi target boon strip, 600 range leap into an AOE blast finisher that strips boons whats not to love about it. Also the soft CC from hammer 3 is nice.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    i loved old hammer gs roaming, but the animations are so kitten slow that most players will easily dodge your stuff and even if you land it, all classes got easy condi breaks often with way less cd than hammer cc's
    alone the mirage dodge stunbreak is a joke that should be deleted, or atleast get a frickin internal cd of atleast 10sec, better more

    Honestly what annoys me more than that is using F1 on a slope with the Hammer. Impossible to hit because of the terrain and you just wated your adrenaline for nothing.

    Logging out forever.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Star.8401 said:
    dagger burst is useful in zergs if traited for additional boon strip. daze is also nice on dagger 3

    hammer is way better for stripping boons in a zerg...

    Hammer is pretty amazing for SB isn't it. Multi target boon strip, 600 range leap into an AOE blast finisher that strips boons whats not to love about it. Also the soft CC from hammer 3 is nice.

    F1 into F2 into F1 is amazing.

    Logging out forever.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2018

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    i loved old hammer gs roaming, but the animations are so kitten slow that most players will easily dodge your stuff and even if you land it, all classes got easy condi breaks often with way less cd than hammer cc's
    alone the mirage dodge stunbreak is a joke that should be deleted, or atleast get a frickin internal cd of atleast 10sec, better more

    Honestly what annoys me more than that is using F1 on a slope with the Hammer. Impossible to hit because of the terrain and you just wated your adrenaline for nothing.

    can live with that, just the fact that its meaningless against most ppl in a 1v1 setting is sad

  • Hitman.5829Hitman.5829 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:
    Eh, hammer's too slow IMO to be your main DPS weapon, it's more for CC/boon rip/setup weapon.

    Hammer is a whole 'nother can of worms where Anet thinks it is a condi weapon or something, lol.

    It has some of the highest base damages and is extremely good for CC. What's your point? That the GM trait adds confusion to it? It's just some additional damage and bonus effect. If anything they could ever so slightly increase attack speed with it, but it is definitely capable of doing some juicy 8k auto attack crits.

    It is also the highest telegraphed weapon for warrior. So what is your point?

    Charr Warrior Master Race!
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  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'll often roam in a group as SB using Dagger/Shield and then Axe/Dagger as secondary. Work's darn well in small scale where you are not the sole target, therefore not needing the added mobility from GS.

    Fort Aspenwood
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  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'll often roam in a group as SB using Dagger/Shield and then Axe/Dagger as secondary. Work's darn well in small scale where you are not the sole target, therefore not needing the added mobility from GS.

    sounds still awful when you meet a bigger group or need to get out of the cluster to get some health back, after you got focused by the other party or just ate too much aoe dmg for some reason

  • Star.8401Star.8401 Member ✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @Star.8401 said:
    dagger burst is useful in zergs if traited for additional boon strip. daze is also nice on dagger 3

    hammer is way better for stripping boons in a zerg...

    just a reminder OP asked about axe vs. dagger

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

  • @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

  • @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Do you even realize how loaded that weapon is?

    Unblockable damage, boon removal, 2 leap finishers, CC, built-in might stacking, and solid damage.

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    Axe burst is easy to land if you know how to chain skills. The tell is big, but it has a big burst. Nobody competent is going to sit there and let you AA them. The F1 burst is used because it's a burst skill, not a dps skill. Idk why you're talking about DPS since that isn't a factor in WvW. Sure, hammer revs in zergs might use Arcdps to see how much damage they do to blobs, but there isn't a use for it for Axe Warriors. Plus with Warrior's Sprint, the burst removes immobilize and procs AH.

    There's a difference in usability between a instant burst and a channeled burst skill. Sure, Axe 5 and GS 2 might hit harder than a level 1 F1 Axe burst, but that also requires the target to stand still and take the full channel. That's not going to happen (especially with Axe 5 since you lose the stun on Shield). It's not really comparable in a WvW setting.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    Axe burst is easy to land if you know how to chain skills. The tell is big, but it has a big burst. Nobody competent is going to sit there and let you AA them. The F1 burst is used because it's a burst skill, not a dps skill. Idk why you're talking about DPS since that isn't a factor in WvW. Sure, hammer revs in zergs might use Arcdps to see how much damage they do to blobs, but there isn't a use for it for Axe Warriors. Plus with Warrior's Sprint, the burst removes immobilize and procs AH.

    There's a difference in usability between a instant burst and a channeled burst skill. Sure, Axe 5 and GS 2 might hit harder than a level 1 F1 Axe burst, but that also requires the target to stand still and take the full channel. That's not going to happen (especially with Axe 5 since you lose the stun on Shield). It's not really comparable in a WvW setting.

    Wait...

    So you are arguing that something that has been proven to do less damage overall than finishing the AA chain and has a (high) chance to miss when playing against competent opponents is more viable than finishing the AA chain with less of a chance to miss (no CD), and still will do better, if not comparable damage?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    Axe burst is easy to land if you know how to chain skills. The tell is big, but it has a big burst. Nobody competent is going to sit there and let you AA them. The F1 burst is used because it's a burst skill, not a dps skill. Idk why you're talking about DPS since that isn't a factor in WvW. Sure, hammer revs in zergs might use Arcdps to see how much damage they do to blobs, but there isn't a use for it for Axe Warriors. Plus with Warrior's Sprint, the burst removes immobilize and procs AH.

    There's a difference in usability between a instant burst and a channeled burst skill. Sure, Axe 5 and GS 2 might hit harder than a level 1 F1 Axe burst, but that also requires the target to stand still and take the full channel. That's not going to happen (especially with Axe 5 since you lose the stun on Shield). It's not really comparable in a WvW setting.

    Wait...

    So you are arguing that something that has been proven to do less damage overall than finishing the AA chain and has a (high) chance to miss when playing against competent opponents is more viable than finishing the AA chain with less of a chance to miss (no CD), and still will do better, if not comparable damage?

    Look at it this way.

    You land Bull's charge (or Shield 4) on an enemy without stability.
    You now have the option of going for a short burst on Axe F1 or go for the full AA chain.
    If the enemy has a stunbreak, you won't be able to finish the AA chain, so at max you'll be doing 2 auto attacks. If you went immediately for the F1 burst, you'd do that plus the additional benefit of Adrenal Health proccing and gaining might stacks.
    Let's also look at cast time. Bull's Charge is a 3 second knockdown. Axe AA chain takes 3.6 seconds (without quickness), while F1 takes 1 sec to cast. Shield 4 is even lower with only a 1 1/2 sec duration.

    I don't know the raid dps test, but I'm assuming the main damage comes from the final third axe AA. You're less likely to land the full axe AA than the F1 burst.

  • @nativity.3057 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    Axe burst is easy to land if you know how to chain skills. The tell is big, but it has a big burst. Nobody competent is going to sit there and let you AA them. The F1 burst is used because it's a burst skill, not a dps skill. Idk why you're talking about DPS since that isn't a factor in WvW. Sure, hammer revs in zergs might use Arcdps to see how much damage they do to blobs, but there isn't a use for it for Axe Warriors. Plus with Warrior's Sprint, the burst removes immobilize and procs AH.

    There's a difference in usability between a instant burst and a channeled burst skill. Sure, Axe 5 and GS 2 might hit harder than a level 1 F1 Axe burst, but that also requires the target to stand still and take the full channel. That's not going to happen (especially with Axe 5 since you lose the stun on Shield). It's not really comparable in a WvW setting.

    Wait...

    So you are arguing that something that has been proven to do less damage overall than finishing the AA chain and has a (high) chance to miss when playing against competent opponents is more viable than finishing the AA chain with less of a chance to miss (no CD), and still will do better, if not comparable damage?

    Look at it this way.

    You land Bull's charge (or Shield 4) on an enemy without stability.
    You now have the option of going for a short burst on Axe F1 or go for the full AA chain.
    If the enemy has a stunbreak, you won't be able to finish the AA chain, so at max you'll be doing 2 auto attacks. If you went immediately for the F1 burst, you'd do that plus the additional benefit of Adrenal Health proccing and gaining might stacks.
    Let's also look at cast time. Bull's Charge is a 3 second knockdown. Axe AA chain takes 3.6 seconds (without quickness), while F1 takes 1 sec to cast. Shield 4 is even lower with only a 1 1/2 sec duration.

    I don't know the raid dps test, but I'm assuming the main damage comes from the final third axe AA. You're less likely to land the full axe AA than the F1 burst.

    If you're running Axe shield and you land your bull's charge (and they don't stun break) you're not going to axe burst. You're going to weapon swap into GS land your burst there and go into 100b.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • nativity.3057nativity.3057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Ferus.3165 said:

    @nativity.3057 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    I mean, I had a hard time justifying it before this horrid nerf but now?

    Seems like a no-contest.

    It's less the nerf on dagger, but that Axe is almost broken right now.

    hm considering that mesmer, scourge and firebrand still rule in pvp and/or wvw and warrior is only good as a sidenode (and even outclassed for that) or bubble bot makes me think otherwise.

    How is being a bubblebot relevant to axe? Warriors don't go axe when zerging.
    Warrior is a potent skirmisher and duelist. Their role isn't currently meta, and scourge being meta also doesn't help with warrior presence in pvp.

    None of what you listed relates to Axe, only meta.

    then please elaborate why you deem axe to be overpowered? It has no mobility, no stealth, no teleport and is melee. How is it busted? Because it deals damage?

    Because it does busted amounts of damage?
    The best part of Axe is the F1 burst and Throw Axe.

    F1 burst on axe is terrible. If I remember what the raid people said in dps testing that a level 1 axe burst was actually a dps loss over the auto attack chain.

    This is about PvP/WvW, not PvE.

    I was talking for WvW too, just thought I'd mention that it's a loss of damage to use the axe burst when it's only a level 1 burst. A skill is pretty bad when you're better off just cleaving instead of using it's more powerful F1. So the only reason to use the burst if you're running SB and an axe is to help proc your AH. It's also got a HUGE tell that you're going to hit with it. The "busted" amounts of damage is on axe 5 which people don't take offhand axe into WvW because you're just pretty much giving up on all defensive abilities on your weapons at that point.

    Axe burst is easy to land if you know how to chain skills. The tell is big, but it has a big burst. Nobody competent is going to sit there and let you AA them. The F1 burst is used because it's a burst skill, not a dps skill. Idk why you're talking about DPS since that isn't a factor in WvW. Sure, hammer revs in zergs might use Arcdps to see how much damage they do to blobs, but there isn't a use for it for Axe Warriors. Plus with Warrior's Sprint, the burst removes immobilize and procs AH.

    There's a difference in usability between a instant burst and a channeled burst skill. Sure, Axe 5 and GS 2 might hit harder than a level 1 F1 Axe burst, but that also requires the target to stand still and take the full channel. That's not going to happen (especially with Axe 5 since you lose the stun on Shield). It's not really comparable in a WvW setting.

    Wait...

    So you are arguing that something that has been proven to do less damage overall than finishing the AA chain and has a (high) chance to miss when playing against competent opponents is more viable than finishing the AA chain with less of a chance to miss (no CD), and still will do better, if not comparable damage?

    Look at it this way.

    You land Bull's charge (or Shield 4) on an enemy without stability.
    You now have the option of going for a short burst on Axe F1 or go for the full AA chain.
    If the enemy has a stunbreak, you won't be able to finish the AA chain, so at max you'll be doing 2 auto attacks. If you went immediately for the F1 burst, you'd do that plus the additional benefit of Adrenal Health proccing and gaining might stacks.
    Let's also look at cast time. Bull's Charge is a 3 second knockdown. Axe AA chain takes 3.6 seconds (without quickness), while F1 takes 1 sec to cast. Shield 4 is even lower with only a 1 1/2 sec duration.

    I don't know the raid dps test, but I'm assuming the main damage comes from the final third axe AA. You're less likely to land the full axe AA than the F1 burst.

    If you're running Axe shield and you land your bull's charge (and they don't stun break) you're not going to axe burst. You're going to weapon swap into GS land your burst there and go into 100b.

    The discussion is about Axe, not GS. I'm giving a hypothetical situation only involving Axe.

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    I played a lot of PvP with axe mainhand, decided to switch to dagger after all: DPS will drop , by a lot, but added utility of gap closer and extra CC helps with creating more fluid rotations with the whole package. Also i feel more relevant in group fights that way, bringing extra CC is worth losing in raw dps.

    (These are my observations from playing in low gold, it's possible my perspective will switch again if\when i improve and encounter opponents with different playstyle )

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'll often roam in a group as SB using Dagger/Shield and then Axe/Dagger as secondary. Work's darn well in small scale where you are not the sole target, therefore not needing the added mobility from GS.

    I like to run Axe/Dagger Dagger/Axe, it's not optimal defensively or mobility wise, but it lays some hate down.

  • @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'll often roam in a group as SB using Dagger/Shield and then Axe/Dagger as secondary. Work's darn well in small scale where you are not the sole target, therefore not needing the added mobility from GS.

    I like to run Axe/Dagger Dagger/Axe, it's not optimal defensively or mobility wise, but it lays some hate down.

    In PvP!? What a mad lad!!
    I can't see Warrior without Shield in PvP, Shield is way to good

    Also, havent touched PvP much since balance patch, but of what I've played, Dagger still seemed fine to me
    This foruns are nothing but a meme sometimes xD

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    @mPascoal.4258 said:

    @Tinnel.4369 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    I'll often roam in a group as SB using Dagger/Shield and then Axe/Dagger as secondary. Work's darn well in small scale where you are not the sole target, therefore not needing the added mobility from GS.

    I like to run Axe/Dagger Dagger/Axe, it's not optimal defensively or mobility wise, but it lays some hate down.

    In PvP!? What a mad lad!!
    I can't see Warrior without Shield in PvP, Shield is way to good

    Also, havent touched PvP much since balance patch, but of what I've played, Dagger still seemed fine to me
    This foruns are nothing but a meme sometimes xD

    In WvW group play.

  • @witcher.3197 said:
    Do you even realize how loaded that weapon is?

    Unblockable damage, boon removal, 2 leap finishers, CC, built-in might stacking, and solid damage.

    This, so much of this especially the unblockable part.

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