Updated Charr command core instance hint towards living story?

I was in my hunt for chairs to sit on and I wondered into the command core and found that it has been updated. You can see representatives from each legion talking in a circle around the claw of the Khan-Ur.https://imgur.com/a/u4GpS

Am I late to this party or is this new?

Anxious for confirmation, its a longe time since last time i have been on this place and i cant remember.

Also worth mentioning is the map of Queensdale.

@Tibs.2783 said:Also worth mentioning is the map of Queensdale.

I'm by no means a Charr lore expert but could you explain to us what's going on in the map of Queensdale in the Imgur link you posted?

@TheOrlyFactor.8341 said:I'm by no means a Charr lore expert but could you explain to us what's going on in the map of Queensdale in the Imgur link you posted?Tactical map showing the poistion of the bandits(White Mantel), the Seraph, and the Centaurs.

Also, it was ntoed when Daybreak came out that Anet made small changes to the area of the Blood Legion Homelands where Kralkatorik was sleeping back in Guild wars 1, they also made changed to the Dakja Peninsula, as well as Gandara, and the Fortress of Jahai. The Dakja changes eventually became the Sandsweapt Isles map, so its likely we will be going into Charr lands for at least one release.

I suspect our trip there will be to find something to use against Kralkatorik in the area he was sleeping in for so long.

The Claw of the Khan-Ur was added with Episode 2. Likely because they actually made a model for the weapon.

The map has been there since release. I think it's just a reused art asset because we see maps of Queensdale and Silverwastes all over the place. AFAIK, there's only four "tactical paper maps" that exist in the game - Queensdale, Orr, Silverwastes and Lake Doric. Naturally, only the first two existed at release. It should be noted there are non-tactical maps of Tyria, Elona, and Cantha that used GW1's maps for them (modified to show risen Orr for the first).

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"TheOrlyFactor.8341" said:I'm by no means a Charr lore expert but could you explain to us what's going on in the map of Queensdale in the Imgur link you posted?Tactical map showing the poistion of the bandits(White Mantel), the Seraph, and the Centaurs.

Changes were also made around and to Fields of Ruin, to a corner of Blazeridge Steppes, and west of Mount Maelstrom, east of Crystal Oasis/south of Maelstrom.

Compare these two to see it all:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/archive/4/46/20171202191644%21Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg

We're either seeing Season 4 + Expac 3, or ArenaNet just updated a bunch of random map tiles.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:We're either seeing Season 4 + Expac 3, or ArenaNet just updated a bunch of random map tiles.Or a bit of both and neither.

Gandara and Jahai are basically guaranteed as living story maps at this point, what with the Elona focus, and what happened to the changes made around what would become the Sandsweapt Isles.

I'm not so sure that Gandara and Jahai are guaranteed S4. While we're focused on Joko, with him targeting Tyria and now having his means to do said assault, we could easily be seeing more maps going back north towards Central Tyria instead, and leaving Kourna / southern Vabbi for Expac3 or later or even never.

While those were updated, they just show more visibly GW1 landmarks, which feels little different than that little splotch on the western side of The Desolation, which was the small grotto where the Elder Junundu Wurms were found in GW1. No reason to think "it's detailed therefore story!" Let alone "it got updated therefore story!" Most of Season 3 maps altered the map upon release, not before; and so did A Bug in the System, despite the water color changes in Daybreak those changes pretty much got removed with the new world map.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I'm not so sure that Gandara and Jahai are guaranteed S4. While we're focused on Joko, with him targeting Tyria and now having his means to do said assault, we could easily be seeing more maps going back north towards Central Tyria instead, and leaving Kourna / southern Vabbi for Expac3 or later or even never.Joko's assault was already stopped when we destroyed the two gate hubs he was using. And even If he did use awakened Inquest to make another Gate Hub, he would have to put it somewhere, such as Ganadra or Jahai, the two most secure fortresses in Elona.

This idea that we would go back to central Tyria(outside of the place Kralkatorik was sleeping) makes no sense, and implies not only the commander, but the Anet writing staff, are pants on head stupid, and would focus on having us try to put our the brushfires(by having us go attack these small bands of awakened popping up), rather then the fire starter(Joko's gate hubs). This also ignores that, outside of the north and west sides of Divinities Reach, and the southern side of the Black Citadel, the areas around the major faction cities are already covered by existing map, leaving little if anywhere for Anet to put a new map about this. And trying the DR angle would just be too similar to what happened last living story reasons with the White Mantle's attack on Lake Doric.

PoF and LWS4 are "Elona time", and Anet isn't going to side track from that over a side story.

Presuming that there is no third gate hub, we did stop his portal invasion. But remember back in Halloween? Joko sent probing Awakened along the coasts (this is probably how he found Rata Primus in all honesty). He can launch a land/sea invasion too.

And this would be a perfect placement for a map south of Mount Maelstrom / east of Crystal Oasis which got updated map tiles.

I fail to see how returning to Central Tyria when Joko personally intends to assault and conquer Central Tyria "makes no sense" when he, personally, has the means to do so now. I would also hardly call Palawa Joko a "side story". A side story in this plot would be the Order of Shadows' questionable intentions. Not one of the largest villains in the entire franchise.

As for areas near major cities.... D'Alessio Seaboard (Lion's Arch), Lake Regent (Divinity's Reach), Alcazia Tangle (The Grove and Rata Sum), Wizard's Folly (Black Citadel), and, since we're talking lore cities and not just mechanical ones too, south of the Desert Gate (Ebonhawke) - the last one also getting updated tiles, BTW.

While I wouldn't expect a Lake Regent due to distance and as you say redux plot, I could not only see but fully expect them to put a map between Desert Highlands and Fields of Ruin, and Ebonhawke suffering Joko's first goal (either with purpose or as a decoy to draw away from his main coastal army), one south of Mount Maelstrom for where Joko has stationed his main army, and then take us to Alcazia Tangle where he has launch an assault on Rata Sum because he knows from his Awakened Asura so many of their defenses and that it is yet another gate hub.

That said, I just remembered that an apparent leak of E2 a few months back...

What I don't see happening is a plot focusing purely on Joko so far, with Kralkatorrik taking a back seat, somehow finding room to detour across the continent to Kralkatorrik's hibernation lands.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I fail to see how returning to Central Tyria when Joko personally intends to assault and conquer Central Tyria "makes no sense" when he, personally, has the means to do so now.If you knew some guy had a gate hub that let him show up anywhere, would you try to play wack-a-mole with his randomly appearing forces, or would you try to take out the hub, stemming the tide at the source? There is no reason for the commander to go back to central Tyria, when they are far closer to whenever Joko's gate hub is, and can just go there and deal with the problem at the source. This is even more important with the Scarab Plague in Joko's hands. Going to where he released it is pointless, since its already out there at that point. One would go to the gate hub and take it out before it ever got out.-Presuming that there is no third gate hub, we did stop his portal invasion. But remember back in Halloween? Joko sent probing Awakened along the coasts (this is probably how he found Rata Primus in all honesty). He can launch a land/sea invasion too.-And this would be a perfect placement for a map south of Mount Maelstrom / east of Crystal Oasis which got updated map tiles.-Sea of Elon("he had already moved the bulk of his army to here!")-one south of Mount Maelstrom for where Joko has stationed his main armyThat would require Joko to be unfathomably idiotic, since that would mean he placed his army a literal stones throw from the Pact's main fortress, along a waterway they control the choke point to, and could reach him in all of about 5 minutes. I know the Pact isn't in the shape it was before Mordremoth destroyed the airship fleet, but they still have many tanks, submarines, and troops, that could be there in about two second flat. Generally speaking, you want to avoid the largest and most secure super fortress when invading a nation. That kind of plan didn't go well for the Istani army in GW1, and it wouldn't do Joko well in GW2.-Alcazia Tangle ("His true target all along was Rata Sum for their gates, we'll stop him once and for all here!")-and then take us to Alcazia Tangle where he has launch an assault on Rata Sum because he knows from his Awakened Asura so many of their defenses and that it is yet another gate hub.This is unlikely to ever happen because that area of the map is sectioned off and used by the fake version of Orr we go to as part of the Pale Tree's vision in the vanilla game. Anet has stated in the past that, while it is possible, its very difficult, and extremely screwy, to try to overlay two map over each other, which is part of the problem they had with the map they originally designed for north of DR, since it went along DR's curve, and thus clipped into that map. Unless they massively change their tech, or completely rebuild that mission from the ground up, it is unlikely we will ever visit that area.Wizard's FollyThe problem I have with this is that Anet has pretty much boxed off that region into a near perfect square that screams "expansion" territory, and I find it unlikely they would ruin the box by putting anything in there outside of an expansion for the Deldimor Front region.-Desert Gate("He unleashed the plague outside Ebonhawke")-I could not only see but fully expect them to put a map between Desert Highlands and Fields of Ruin, and Ebonhawke suffering Joko's first goal (either with purpose or as a decoy to draw away from his main coastal army)This would be the same problem as putting his armies near the Elon Sea south of Mount Maelstrom. One does not muster an army at a super small choke point like the Desert Gate, that just so happens to sit right next to a place like EbonHawk, the fortress so secure not even the combined Legions of the Charr could break it in over 200 years of constant trying. Even with the Scarab Plague, all we would have to do is tell them to not eat any food stores they currently have, and just get more from the gate that directly connects them to DR.What I don't see happening is a plot focusing purely on Joko so far, with Kralkatorrik taking a back seat, somehow finding room to detour across the continent to Kralkatorrik's hibernation lands.Because we have to kill Kralkatorik at some point, and while Aurene has gotten stronger since absorbing all of that magic, she still isn't at Glint's level, and not even Glint could take down Kralkatorik by herself. We need something like another Dragonblood Spear to use to eliminate Kralkatorik, so going to where he slept for literally 10,000 years is the best place for that. Not to mention, it could deal with the Charr fallout from discovering the lost tribe of Charr, and Anet said on reddit they are taking Rox in a new direction, so going to Charr lands for her new personal crisis also makes sense.

IMO, season 4 will have us to go Gandara, and Jahai(separate maps) to disarm Joko's plans/forces(though he obviously wont be killed or anything), then, after the immediate threat of Joko's invasion has been disarmed, we switch over to having Taimi and the Full Metal Alchemist brothers build some sort of "anti-Kralkatorik" device which requires some mcguffin item we need to go to where Kralkatorik slept to get(que Rox's story). Then we get our allies in the Desrt/Vabbian, and Isanti, Sunspears, as well as the Order of Shadows/Whispers, to form an ad hoc force to move on Kralkatorik(likely staging area is around the old Venta Cemetery/Sunspear Sancutary for extra irony, and then we move on Kralkatorik in episode 7, using the device Taimi and the FMA bros made, as well as Aurene, and possibly griffon mounted Sunspears, to eliminate Kralkatorik, and transfer the power to Aurene.

That would make for a 7-8 episode Living Story season, cover basically the rest of Elona we didn't visit in PoF or already in S4, and would be a nice end to what would amount to a 2+ year long(assuming 2.5-3 months per living story ep) story arc set around the desert and Elona.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

• Your entire first paragraph is rather moot given that the goal wouldn't be to stop the army, but to stop Joko himself (or rather, the plague spreading). If Joko with plague in hand goes to Tyria, bam, reason to go to Tyria. And he has to go to Tyria if he plans to unleash the plague personally, and even if he doesn't go personally (I cannot see this "new me" of his letting another handle such an important task) he would be sending a trusted individual to doing the deed for him and we would still need to stop that person. Also, a third gate hub was merely hypothetical at the beginning of my post but wasn't even the main concept I was presenting.
• The Pact's Main Fortress from 5 years ago, before their armies had been decimated by Mordremoth (more than just the fleet suffered as was made evident in various post-HoT commentary). Not to mention that the Pact do not involve themselves in non-Elder Dragon affairs as proven in Season 1.
• Map overlay issues is only true for maps that both show up in the open world map - this isn't the case here, as that "copy of Orr" is hidden the entire time, and would remain hidden in this situation. Not to mention that Forsaken Thicket already does major overlapping in the maps as it is.
• There's literally no plot to take us to Deldrimor Front unless a threat moves in, and the most likely threat has been Primordus, who is now out of the picture. But now Joko could be. Besides that, Labyrinthine Cliffs already ruined that "perfect box" back in Season 1.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Because we have to kill Kralkatorik at some point, and while Aurene has gotten stronger since absorbing all of that magic, she still isn't at Glint's level, and not even Glint could take down Kralkatorik by herself. We need something like another Dragonblood Spear to use to eliminate Kralkatorik, so going to where he slept for literally 10,000 years is the best place for that. Not to mention, it could deal with the Charr fallout from discovering the lost tribe of Charr, and Anet said on reddit they are taking Rox in a new direction, so going to Charr lands for her new personal crisis also makes sense.

IMO, season 4 will have us to go Gandara, and Jahai(separate maps) to disarm Joko's plans/forces(though he obviously wont be killed or anything), then, after the immediate threat of Joko's invasion has been disarmed, we switch over to having Taimi and the Full Metal Alchemist brothers build some sort of "anti-Kralkatorik" device which requires some mcguffin item we need to go to where Kralkatorik slept to get(que Rox's story). Then we get our allies in the Desrt/Vabbian, and Isanti, Sunspears, as well as the Order of Shadows/Whispers, to form an ad hoc force to move on Kralkatorik(likely staging area is around the old Venta Cemetery/Sunspear Sancutary for extra irony, and then we move on Kralkatorik in episode 7, using the device Taimi and the FMA bros made, as well as Aurene, and possibly griffon mounted Sunspears, to eliminate Kralkatorik, and transfer the power to Aurene.

That would make for a 7-8 episode Living Story season, cover basically the rest of Elona we didn't visit in PoF or already in S4, and would be a nice end to what would amount to a 2+ year long(assuming 2.5-3 months per living story ep) story arc set around the desert and Elona.

I am still doubtful to the concept of killing an Elder Dragon in a Living World Season. To date, every LW season since they began the process of expansions have directly led into the next expansion. While I would prefer for an expansion to start its own plot, I do not see ArenaNet changing their "ideal set up" that they've been following. That would mean however LWS4 ends, it will lead into the plot of Expac3 and be solely the first half of that plot just as Season 2 led into HoT and was the first half of the Mordremoth plot, and Season 3 led into PoF and was the first half of the Balthazar plot. Presumably it'd be the Kralkatorrik plot as I don't see Joko lasting both the whole of Season 4 and an expansion. Unless we somehow (and horribly) squeeze Joko, Kralkatorrik, and the introduction of a new threat into the remaining 4 or 7 episodes (presuming that Arenanet continues what S3 established).

Besides you are the one who suggested that the altered map tiles are hinting to the placement of LWS4's maps. If that's so, then Season 4 will also be taking us south of Maelstrom and south of Fields of Ruin just as it'd take us to Gandara, Jahai, and Grothmar Wardowns.

You can't have it both ways, where the altered tiles hint at the placement of S4 maps, but only where it fits with your vision of S4's plot direction and just ignore the rest like they don't happen or they're utterly irrelevant. If some are irrelevant, than the likelihood of any being relevant is pretty much null as far as we can tell.

About massive map tiles change i think it just something that they hitchhiked at work to implement the sit function. This may indicate future maps, but it does not guarantee it's something in Season 4.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Your entire first paragraph is rather moot given that the goal wouldn't be to stop the army, but to stop Joko himself (or rather, the plague spreading). If Joko with plague in hand goes to Tyria, bam, reason to go to Tyria.Stopping Joko himself would mean stopping his armies and the plague, since that is what he is using to attack Tyira. Joko himself is seemingly unkillable, so trying to stop him personally would be a waste of time. You also wouldn't just take the plague itself somewhere with you, that would be dumb on Joko's part. You would keep it in a secure location, and then use something like gates to move it to other places. Joko isn't going to just be walking around with the whatever he plans to use to spread it, and thus, we would be better off going to wherever he is keeping it, and destroying it there, then trying to play whack-a-mole in places he releases it.The Pact's Main Fortress from 5 years ago, before their armies had been decimated by MordremothIts still their main base, and nothing has stated they have moved from there. Getting your airship fleet destroyed doesn't mean you just leave the base you have been established in for years. Especially not when its as secure as Fort Trinity is.Not to mention that the Pact do not involve themselves in non-Elder Dragon affairs as proven in Season 1.Except they got themselves involved with the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Krait, back in vanilla, and even The Pact themselves admitted not dealing with Scarlet was a mistake on their part, and got tons of flack from everyone for not getting involved, and were afterwards like "we wont make that mistake again"Not to mention that Forsaken Thicket already does major overlapping in the maps as it is.No it doesn't. The Forsaken Thicket raid wings are totally separate from the games other map, and don't touch anything around them. They are perfectly boxed off just like everything else.There's literally no plot to take us to Deldrimor Front unless a threat moves in, and the most likely threat has been Primordus, who is now out of the picture. But now Joko could be. Besides that, Labyrinthine Cliffs already ruined that "perfect box" back in Season 1.Deldrimor Front would be the perfect means to find some old Dwarven passage underground to reach wherever Primordus is hiding after he wakes up again. Also, I was including the Labyrinthine Cliff in my box comparisonI am still doubtful to the concept of killing an Elder Dragon in a Living World Season. To date, every LW season since they began the process of expansions have directly led into the next expansion.And this would still do it. Even though we plan to use Aurene to replace Kralkaotrik, there is no way she is going to be able to absorb all of Kralkatorik's power whenever we kill him, this means that a lot of it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere could be either into reawakening Jormag and Primordus, or into Bubbles. It would end similarly to how PoF did, we have our little victory dance only to get some sort of "ohh crap this bad thing is happening now!" message at tje end.Besides you are the one who suggested that the altered map tiles are hinting to the placement of LWS4's maps. If that's so, then Season 4 will also be taking us south of Maelstrom and south of Fields of Ruin just as it'd take us to Gandara, Jahai, and Grothmar Wardowns.Yes, and I am referencing the map changes made in this updatehttps://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/And you can see from the included map that shows the changed pixels that none of the areas you mention were part of that update.Presumably it'd be the Kralkatorrik plotThe problem with a Kralkatorik expansion is that it lacks the three major things needed to make an expansion, specifically, it lacks narrative, location, and gameplay mechanics

1. On the narrative front, while Path of Fire was mainly about chasing after Balthazar, Balthazar himself was chasing after Kralkatorik, which means WE were also chasing after Kralkatorik as well. As such, in Path of Fire we did everything that would be normally associated with a Kralkatorik focused expansion. We went to Glint's Lair, read her memories, found and stupidly destroyed the Dragonblood Spear. We met Vlast, he died, we read his memories, we went to his old home. We found out Kralkatorik's weakness is his own power, and predictably Aurene, the dragon child of Glint who has part of Kralkatorik's power in her, showed up, got kidnapped, and used to almost kill Kralkatorik. Anet could have easily ended PoF with Balthazar killing Kralky, but us killing him before he could take in all the power, and that would have been a perfectly fitting end to Kralkatorik. There is really nothing left to explore narrative in a Kralkatorik focused expansion, because PoF did it all already, this is why LWS4 keeps kiting around the problem by distracting us with Joko, even Anet knows there not much meat left on the Kralk story, and so are focusing on other things.

2. On the location front, there is really nowhere left to set a Kralkatorik based expansion. From where Kralkatorik is now, we have the Desolation map to the north of him, the Vabbi map to the northeast, are likely to have a Jahai map to the direct east of him, and a Gandara map to the southeast. We also the Istan map to the south/southwest, and the Sanbdsweapt Isles map to the west. Kralkatorik is effectively boxed in at this point, and even if they don't do the rest of Kourna in the living world the amount of space left would be equal to about two Path of Fire maps. And that isn't an expansion, that isn't even half an expansion. There really isn't anywhere to put a whole other expansion focused on Kralkatorik, and the only place he could really fly off to is out into open ocean in the gap between Istan and Gandara, which isn't exactly conductive of an epxansion's worth of content.

3. Most importantly however, there really isn't any new gameplay opportunities to be had from a Kralkatorik expansion. PoF already gave us new branded, end game level branded, new brand mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm, and those tracts of electric brand crystals on the ground, and had a significant Branded presence in the maps. On top of that, unlike the Heart of the Maguuma, which had been cut off the rest of Tyria for years, and the Crystal desert/Elona regions which had also been cut off from central Tyira for years, Kourna hasn't been cut off from the rest of Elona for years, so it wouldn't make sense to introduce some big new gameplay feature like gliders, or mounts, for the Kourna area. There isn't room for some big new gameplay mechanic to sell the expansion on, which makes it not a viable location for another expansion.

Any new expansion would have to be set somewhere that isn't central Tyria or Elona at this point, and, as already mentioned, there isn't really anywhere from Kralkatorik to fly off to at this point. If I had to take a guess, assuming they don't reawaken Jormag and Primordus, the next expansion will lead into Bubbles, with some underwater revamp/new mechanics.

HoT gave us air travel via gliders, PoF was all about land travel via mounts, so it makes sense that expansion 3 would be underwater travel.

Anet can do literally anything they want since they have complete control of the story. Arguing we aren't going somewhere with any sort of conviction doesn't make sense.

If they wanted to they could have a 7th elder dragon pop up in Queensdale and tear a hole into the mists, allowing hundreds of new races to pour in from other planets. I wrote that as an example to show it's silly to rule anything out, but it now actually sounds kind of awesome since we know humans came from another planet. :/

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Your entire first paragraph is rather moot given that the goal wouldn't be to stop the army, but to stop Joko himself (or rather, the plague spreading). If Joko with plague in hand goes to Tyria, bam, reason to go to Tyria.Stopping Joko himself would mean stopping his armies and the plague, since that is what he is using to attack Tyira. Joko himself is seemingly unkillable, so trying to stop him personally would be a waste of time. You also wouldn't just take the plague itself somewhere with you, that would be dumb on Joko's part. You would keep it in a secure location, and then use something like gates to move it to other places. Joko isn't going to just be walking around with the whatever he plans to use to spread it, and thus, we would be better off going to wherever he is keeping it, and destroying it there, then trying to play whack-a-mole in places he releases it.The Pact's Main Fortress from 5 years ago, before their armies had been decimated by MordremothIts still their main base, and nothing has stated they have moved from there. Getting your airship fleet destroyed doesn't mean you just leave the base you have been established in for years. Especially not when its as secure as Fort Trinity is.Not to mention that the Pact do not involve themselves in non-Elder Dragon affairs as proven in Season 1.Except they got themselves involved with the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Krait, back in vanilla, and even The Pact themselves admitted not dealing with Scarlet was a mistake on their part, and got tons of flack from everyone for not getting involved, and were afterwards like "we wont make that mistake again"Not to mention that Forsaken Thicket already does major overlapping in the maps as it is.No it doesn't. The Forsaken Thicket raid wings are totally separate from the games other map, and don't touch anything around them. They are perfectly boxed off just like everything else.There's literally no plot to take us to Deldrimor Front unless a threat moves in, and the most likely threat has been Primordus, who is now out of the picture. But now Joko could be. Besides that, Labyrinthine Cliffs already ruined that "perfect box" back in Season 1.Deldrimor Front would be the perfect means to find some old Dwarven passage underground to reach wherever Primordus is hiding after he wakes up again. Also, I was including the Labyrinthine Cliff in my box comparisonI am still doubtful to the concept of killing an Elder Dragon in a Living World Season. To date, every LW season since they began the process of expansions have directly led into the next expansion.And this would still do it. Even though we plan to use Aurene to replace Kralkaotrik, there is no way she is going to be able to absorb all of Kralkatorik's power whenever we kill him, this means that a lot of it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere could be either into reawakening Jormag and Primordus, or into Bubbles. It would end similarly to how PoF did, we have our little victory dance only to get some sort of "ohh crap this bad thing is happening now!" message at tje end.Besides

you

are the one who suggested that the altered map tiles are hinting to the placement of LWS4's maps. If that's so, then Season 4 will also be taking us south of Maelstrom and south of Fields of Ruin just as it'd take us to Gandara, Jahai, and Grothmar Wardowns.Yes, and I am referencing the map changes made in this update

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/

And you can see from the included map that shows the changed pixels that none of the areas you mention were part of that update.Presumably it'd be the Kralkatorrik plotThe problem with a Kralkatorik expansion is that it lacks the three major things needed to make an expansion, specifically, it lacks narrative, location, and gameplay mechanics

1. On the narrative front, while Path of Fire was mainly about chasing after Balthazar, Balthazar himself was chasing after Kralkatorik, which means WE were also chasing after Kralkatorik as well. As such, in Path of Fire we did everything that would be normally associated with a Kralkatorik focused expansion. We went to Glint's Lair, read her memories, found and stupidly destroyed the Dragonblood Spear. We met Vlast, he died, we read his memories, we went to his old home. We found out Kralkatorik's weakness is his own power, and predictably Aurene, the dragon child of Glint who has part of Kralkatorik's power in her, showed up, got kidnapped, and used to almost kill Kralkatorik. Anet could have easily ended PoF with Balthazar killing Kralky, but us killing him before he could take in all the power, and that would have been a perfectly fitting end to Kralkatorik. There is really nothing left to explore narrative in a Kralkatorik focused expansion, because PoF did it all already, this is why LWS4 keeps kiting around the problem by distracting us with Joko, even Anet knows there not much meat left on the Kralk story, and so are focusing on other things.

2. On the location front, there is really nowhere left to set a Kralkatorik based expansion. From where Kralkatorik is now, we have the Desolation map to the north of him, the Vabbi map to the northeast, are likely to have a Jahai map to the direct east of him, and a Gandara map to the southeast. We also the Istan map to the south/southwest, and the Sanbdsweapt Isles map to the west. Kralkatorik is effectively boxed in at this point, and even if they don't do the rest of Kourna in the living world the amount of space left would be equal to about two Path of Fire maps. And that isn't an expansion, that isn't even half an expansion. There really isn't anywhere to put a whole other expansion focused on Kralkatorik, and the only place he could really fly off to is out into open ocean in the gap between Istan and Gandara, which isn't exactly conductive of an epxansion's worth of content.

3. Most importantly however, there really isn't any new gameplay opportunities to be had from a Kralkatorik expansion. PoF already gave us new branded, end game level branded, new brand mechanics like the Fury of the Brandstorm, and those tracts of electric brand crystals on the ground, and had a significant Branded presence in the maps. On top of that, unlike the Heart of the Maguuma, which had been cut off the rest of Tyria for years, and the Crystal desert/Elona regions which had also been cut off from central Tyira for years, Kourna hasn't been cut off from the rest of Elona for years, so it wouldn't make sense to introduce some big new gameplay feature like gliders, or mounts, for the Kourna area. There isn't room for some big new gameplay mechanic to sell the expansion on, which makes it not a viable location for another expansion.

The only real thing missing from the Kralkatorik plot is a rematch with Destiny’s Edge to really conclude their guild’s story. With most likely one of their members sacrificing themselves. Another thing which seems kinda weird is that they already did box art of Path of Fire, which I believe represents Kralkatorik, just as the green thorny dragon represents Mordremoth. Kralkatorik coming back for expansion 3 would mean that they would have to use the same dragon art for the box, which I doubt will happen. If we do kill Kralkatorrik at the end of this season, may seem like Anet is shifting from their design. The difference is they already did a reveal of Kralkatorrik and much of his story with Path of Fire.

@"Tyson.5160" said:The only real thing missing from the Kralkatorik plot is a rematch with Destiny’s Edge to really conclude their guild’s story. With most likely one of their members sacrificing themselves. Another thing which seems kinda weird is that they already did box art of Path of Fire, which I believe represents Kralkatorik, just as the green thorny dragon represents Mordremoth. Kralkatorik coming back for expansion 3 would mean that they would have to use the same dragon art for the box, which I doubt will happen. If we do kill Kralkatorrik at the end of this season, may seem like Anet is shifting from their design. The difference is they already did a reveal of Kralkatorrik and much of his story with Path of Fire.I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Elder Dragons aren't really great villains because they aren't really "evil", or really have much personality. They are intimidating as forces of nature, like a hurricane is, but that isn't the same kind of story people enjoy in game stories. Shifting the focus to threats like Joko, gives us a more "relatable" villain in a manner of speaking, with the Elder Dragons being those forces of nature in the background that push and pull us around the world to come into conflict with not only them, but these other villains like Joko.

This is part of the reason I suspect Anet will find a way to have any expansion focused on Bubbles take us to Cantha so we can deal with the "Dragon Empire", the Ministry of Purity, the Kurzick/Luxon conflict, and possibly some Tengu problem, that will inevitably serve as the basis for the story there.

A Jormag expansion will likely have to deal with some Centaurs, the Charr, Norn, Koda, and the other races that come from the far north.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The only real thing missing from the Kralkatorik plot is a rematch with Destiny’s Edge to really conclude their guild’s story. With most likely one of their members sacrificing themselves. Another thing which seems kinda weird is that they already did box art of Path of Fire, which I believe represents Kralkatorik, just as the green thorny dragon represents Mordremoth. Kralkatorik coming back for expansion 3 would mean that they would have to use the same dragon art for the box, which I doubt will happen. If we do kill Kralkatorrik at the end of this season, may seem like Anet is shifting from their design. The difference is they already did a reveal of Kralkatorrik and much of his story with Path of Fire.I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Elder Dragons aren't really great villains because they aren't really "evil", or really have much personality. They are intimidating as forces of nature, like a hurricane is, but that isn't the same kind of story people enjoy in game stories. Shifting the focus to threats like Joko, gives us a more "relatable" villain in a manner of speaking, with the Elder Dragons being those forces of nature in the background that push and pull us around the world to come into conflict with not only them, but these other villains like Joko.

Yeah I suspect Cantha will be attached to the deep sea dragon. I’m half waiting for Canthan armies to arrives on the shores of Tyria and attempt to invade.

Perhaps story wise Cantha could capture the Deep Sea Dragon and somehow use it to power their armies.

Thinking that way though, what would be a significant reason to go to Cantha unless we are attempting to stop a dragon emperor or rescue one of our friends.

I don't have a horse in this race, as far as the question of whether Kralkatorrik will go down in an expansion or episode is concerned, but one point I am curious about: a couple of you seem to be taking it for granted that the only plot threads that Kralkatorrik can interact with are the ones established in the backstory of the setting (the Glint connection, the spear, Destiny's Edge, etc.), but we've already seen that's not true. The three major threads it got involved with in PoF- Elona, the problem of dragons becoming progressively more empowered as we continue to release magic, and Balthazar- are all thing it'd had no interaction with prior to S6 at the latest. And as far as I can see, that's a good thing. One of the reasons the dragons have been dull antagonists is because Zhaitan and Mordremoth were restricted to their predefined spheres of plot. They weren't allowed to grow and develop as the story progressed past them, and so they were caught as one-and-dones.

So why not embrace that? Some people have been calling for Joko to become a recurring villain, but why couldn't Kralkatorrik fill the same roll? It can't be done like Scarlet, where everything tied back either to her or the Kiel subplot, but putting us in a position where we can't do anything about the dragon, and then having it pop up from time to time anyway before we're ready for it, sounds like much more engaging storytelling to me than a structure where a villain's appearance is the surest sign of their imminent defeat. Let the poor bugger see a bit of the world, make a mark or two that doesn't boil down to a large chunk of the map that players avoid visiting except to farm loot. Maybe get involved in things they weren't involved in before- you know, like our characters do.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I don't have a horse in this race, as far as the question of whether Kralkatorrik will go down in an expansion or episode is concerned, but one point I am curious about: a couple of you seem to be taking it for granted that the only plot threads that Kralkatorrik can interact with are the ones established in the backstory of the setting (the Glint connection, the spear, Destiny's Edge, etc.), but we've already seen that's not true. The three major threads it got involved with in PoF- Elona, the problem of dragons becoming progressively more empowered as we continue to release magic, and Balthazar- are all thing it'd had no interaction with prior to S6 at the latest. And as far as I can see, that's a good thing. One of the reasons the dragons have been dull antagonists is because Zhaitan and Mordremoth were restricted to their predefined spheres of plot. They weren't allowed to grow and develop as the story progressed past them, and so they were caught as one-and-dones.

So why not embrace that? Some people have been calling for Joko to become a recurring villain, but why couldn't Kralkatorrik fill the same roll? It can't be done like Scarlet, where everything tied back either to her or the Kiel subplot, but putting us in a position where we can't do anything about the dragon, and then having it pop up from time to time anyway before we're ready for it, sounds like much more engaging storytelling to me than a structure where a villain's appearance is the surest sign of their imminent defeat. Let the poor kitten see a bit of the world, make a mark or two that doesn't boil down to a large chunk of the map that players avoid visiting except to farm loot. Maybe get involved in things they weren't involved in before- you know, like our characters do.

Very possible, however these dragons and becoming more and more of a burden as time goes on. If each dragon didn’t get more power when we killed each one, a dragon could go awol for a bit.

I would not be surprised if Joko had a large army of Awakened stationed near Jahai, that is now all branded, crippling Joko even further. Oddly enough, Joko is more focused on the Commander that left him to rot in a cage, rather then the very large Elder dragon consuming portions of his territory and kingdom.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Stopping Joko himself would mean stopping his armies and the plague, since that is what he is using to attack Tyira. Joko himself is seemingly unkillable, so trying to stop him personally would be a waste of time. You also wouldn't just take the plague itself somewhere with you, that would be dumb on Joko's part. You would keep it in a secure location, and then use something like gates to move it to other places. Joko isn't going to just be walking around with the whatever he plans to use to spread it, and thus, we would be better off going to wherever he is keeping it, and destroying it there, then trying to play whack-a-mole in places he releases it.

Stopping the armies alone isn't going to stop Joko. So obviously we'll have to go after Joko directly.

That's like saying in Star Wars the Rebels intended to stop the Death Star without trying to blow up the Death Star but go after the ground soldiers.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Its still their main base, and nothing has stated they have moved from there. Getting your airship fleet destroyed doesn't mean you just leave the base you have been established in for years. Especially not when its as secure as Fort Trinity is.

In Season 2, Trahearne stated that the bulk of the Pact army moved to prepare for fighting Kralkatorrik, and we see them move to Camp Resolve later. They would divert the majority of their forces to the biggest threat, not just 1/3rd or whatever of them.

That's why throughout Heart of Thorns we were presented with the notion that the Pact has been decimated. Not just the Pact Fleet, but the Pact itself.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Except they got themselves involved with the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Krait, back in vanilla, and even The Pact themselves admitted not dealing with Scarlet was a mistake on their part, and got tons of flack from everyone for not getting involved, and were afterwards like "we wont make that mistake again"

They stopped Inquest studying the Elder Dragons. They assaulted Flame Legion and krait in hopes of obtaining troops and weapons that could help against the Elder Dragons (Gaheron's rumored weapon which turned out to be his "godform" and the blue orb respectively). They actively avoided interacting with Scarlet's various armies because they gained nothing out of it to help fight the Elder Dragons. I don't recall any dialogue where they got flack for not fighting Scarlet, or where they admitted it was a mistake - the moment a dragon got involved, so did they.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:No it doesn't. The Forsaken Thicket raid wings are totally separate from the games other map, and don't touch anything around them. They are perfectly boxed off just like everything else.

Go into Salvation Pass in to the area between Slothasor and Bandit Trio. You end up walking over Spirit Vale's maps before you hit the map boundaries. The world map doesn't line up with the game itself, with Salvation Pass going further west than the world map.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Yes, and I am referencing the map changes made in this updatehttps://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/And you can see from the included map that shows the changed pixels that none of the areas you mention were part of that update.

Again these images:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/archive/4/46/20171202191644%21Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpghttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg

Both of which came from that_shaman. You can very easily tell where pixels got updated.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:HoT gave us air travel via gliders, PoF was all about land travel via mounts, so it makes sense that expansion 3 would be underwater travel.

That's simply delusional at this point in time.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Elder Dragons aren't really great villains because they aren't really "evil", or really have much personality. They are intimidating as forces of nature, like a hurricane is, but that isn't the same kind of story people enjoy in game stories.

This was the original presentation from the game created on the basis that Tyrians don't know much about Elder Dragons. In other words, an unreliable narrator.

We could see even in Orr that this wasn't the case, that the Elder Dragons did have personalities, were definitely evil, and were more than mere forces of nature.

As we get more involved in the dragon plot, I feel like we're to see the dragon personalities get displayed more and more. And that would evolve the plot in a different manner than Zhaitan or even Mordremoth.

I don't think ArenaNet intends to use the remaining Elder Dragons as mere stepping stones for other plots. That too greatly diminishes the nature of the Elder Dragons themselves.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I don't have a horse in this race, as far as the question of whether Kralkatorrik will go down in an expansion or episode is concerned, but one point I am curious about: a couple of you seem to be taking it for granted that the only plot threads that Kralkatorrik can interact with are the ones established in the backstory of the setting (the Glint connection, the spear, Destiny's Edge, etc.), but we've already seen that's not true. The three major threads it got involved with in PoF- Elona, the problem of dragons becoming progressively more empowered as we continue to release magic, and Balthazar- are all thing it'd had no interaction with prior to S6 at the latest. And as far as I can see, that's a good thing. One of the reasons the dragons have been dull antagonists is because Zhaitan and Mordremoth were restricted to their predefined spheres of plot. They weren't allowed to grow and develop as the story progressed past them, and so they were caught as one-and-dones.

So why not embrace that? Some people have been calling for Joko to become a recurring villain, but why couldn't Kralkatorrik fill the same roll? It can't be done like Scarlet, where everything tied back either to her or the Kiel subplot, but putting us in a position where we can't do anything about the dragon, and then having it pop up from time to time anyway before we're ready for it, sounds like much more engaging storytelling to me than a structure where a villain's appearance is the surest sign of their imminent defeat. Let the poor kitten see a bit of the world, make a mark or two that doesn't boil down to a large chunk of the map that players avoid visiting except to farm loot. Maybe get involved in things they weren't involved in before- you know, like our characters do.

i was always under the assumption that the dragons were less mustache twirling villains and more natural disasters with some sentience.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That's like saying in Star Wars the Rebels intended to stop the Death Star without trying to blow up the Death Star but go after the ground soldiers.Uhh no, its nothing like that at all. Its like saying in Star Wars the rebels planned to stop the empire by blowing up their super weapons like the Death Star(Scarab Plague), and killing the Empire's ground forces(Joko's Army) rather then trying to go after The Emperor himself(Joko)In Season 2, Trahearne stated that the bulk of the Pact army moved to prepare for fighting KralkatorrikKonig, do you understand how armies work? How bases work? How troop movement works? Yes, The Pact moved most of its forces to Camp Resolve before going after Mordremoth directly... that's how you attack someone in general, you move your forces near them so you can attack them. That's the whole point of establishing forward bases like Camp Resolve, so you can stage your forces there for an assault... that doesn't change where your actual HQ is. That's like saying the U.S. army's main base is wherever they have most of their troops, simply because that is where most of the troops are, instead of places like The Pentagon, which are the actual Headquarters of the DoD. They even call Camp Resolve a FORWARD base, because it isn't their main base, Fort Trinity is.They assaulted Flame Legion and krait in hopes of obtaining troops and weapons that could help against the Elder DragonsIncorrect, while the Pact do the things you mention in the personal story, they also attack both of these forces in the open world simply for pest elimination purposes.I don't recall any dialogue where they got flack for not fighting ScarletIt was a rather big part of the Living World Season 1 near the end there. Laranthir even came out near the end and went all "our bad!"Go into Salvation Pass in to the area between Slothasor and Bandit Trio. You end up walking over Spirit Vale's maps before you hit the map boundaries.You are aware that the Raid map is one map split into three parts, and not three separate maps right?That's simply delusional at this point in time.It's delusional to assume Anet will keep doing what they have been doing, and what every other MMO does with expansions, which is, introduce new features? Now THAT is delusional.We could see even in Orr that this wasn't the case,No, Orr showed us nothing of the sort. Orr showed us Dragon Minions have personality. Zhaitan himself was an emotionless, speechless, giant monster, that we pressed 2 to kill. Who never did anything besides make some roaring noises.I don't think ArenaNet intends to use the remaining Elder Dragons as mere stepping stones for other plots.I don't either, which is why no one suggested as such.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

In Season 2, Trahearne stated that the bulk of the Pact army moved to prepare for fighting KralkatorrikKonig, do you understand how armies work? How bases work? How troop movement works? Yes, The Pact moved most of its forces to Camp Resolve before going after Mordremoth directly... that's how you attack someone in general, you move your forces near them so you can attack them. That's the whole point of establishing forward bases like Camp Resolve, so you can stage your forces there for an assault... that doesn't change where your actual HQ is. That's like saying the U.S. army's main base is wherever they have most of their troops, simply because that is where most of the troops are, instead of places like The Pentagon, which are the actual Headquarters of the DoD. They even call Camp Resolve a FORWARD base, because it isn't their main base, Fort Trinity is.That's how headquarters work

now

, in a world with near-instantaneous communication. Tyria didn't have that until after the jungle campaign. In such circumstances, it's not unusual for the 'headquarters' of a campaign to be in the field, and move with an army- thus why we see Trahearne move his planning team to Resolve, and then board the fleet personally to see the plan carried out.They assaulted Flame Legion and krait in hopes of obtaining troops and weapons that could help against the Elder DragonsIncorrect, while the Pact do the things you mention in the personal story, they also attack both of these forces in the open world simply for pest elimination purposes.They attack Flame Legion in Fireheart Rise as a build-up to their objectives in the CoF- that's why they're part of the metas leading up to it,with the last meta being required to access the dungeon.

The krait and, iirc, the Inquest in Maelstrom, they fight because those groups attacked them when the Pact came out to check the spread of the risen.

I don't recall any dialogue where they got flack for not fighting ScarletIt was a rather big part of the Living World Season 1 near the end there. Laranthir even came out near the end and went all "our bad!"

Laranthir specifically says that it was none of the Pact's business

unless there was a dragon involved. If your character had completed the PS at that point, they give Laranthir a bit of gruff for even coming out to check on the aftermath, and Laranthir says it was an uphill battle to get Trahearne to sign off on it.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Uhh no, its nothing like that at all. Its like saying in Star Wars the rebels planned to stop the empire by blowing up their super weapons like the Death Star(Scarab Plague), and killing the Empire's ground forces(Joko's Army) rather then trying to go after The Emperor himself(Joko)

So you agree with me that they would have to go after Joko. Who is, as it stands, the one holding the kill switch for the super weapon (Scarab Plague). Otherwise they're not stopping Joko.

Because earlier you said: "Stopping Joko himself would mean stopping his armies and the plague, since that is what he is using to attack Tyira. Joko himself is seemingly unkillable, so trying to stop him personally would be a waste of time."

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Incorrect, while the Pact do the things you mention in the personal story, they also attack both of these forces in the open world simply for pest elimination purposes.

False.

Centurion,Even as far away as the Black Citadel, the drums of your victory are sounding. You reclaimed a fortress from the dragon—and more, used your might to force the Orders into a pact of alliance. Bravely done.At home, we fare less well. Interrogated captives from the Flame Legion report that their Imperator, Gaheron Baelfire, is building a mighty weapon in the fire-mountains north of Ascalon. They do not know its nature, but say that when he is done, Gaheron will be powerful enough to rival even the human gods. Whatever this weapon may be, if it is so powerful, it could be used to destroy Zhaitan and Orr. Once I have more information, I will head into the Flame Legion lands and seize it for the High Legions. No matter the cost.There are rumors of Zojja and Eir. Zojja hunts another of Snaff's apprentices, someone named 'Kudu,' at a southern Inquest base. More asura planning to blow up the world, I assume. If that snipped Zojja is involved...they just might manage it. Be strong, fight bravely, and I will contact you when I know more.—Rytlock

Rytlock's letter to charr PC about the Pact wanting "Gaheron's weapons".

Commander,As we discussed, krait slavers have been taking anyone they can catch on or near the waters of Nonmoa Lake. These aren't just innocents, they're potential Pact recruits, so it's imperative that we free the prisoners and shut down the slavers. I've got Crusader Apatia, formerly of the Lionguard, standing by on the lakeshore. She remembers you from Claw Island and is quite keen to work with you again. Good luck.—Marshal Trahearne

(apparently this mail and it's Tonn and Syska equivilants aren't on wiki so I had to go in game to get this...)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forging_the_Pact

Crusader Apatia: Our mission is to rescue as many slaves as possible, though a Sylvari prisoner named Hywel is top priority. He's a warden of exceptional skill.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Striking_Off_the_Chains#Dialogue

Granted I was slightly off about the blue orb from memory - we only went after that after freeing the prisoners. However, the point of fighting the krait was not "pest elimination purposes" but for recruits. E.g., things to fight the risen with. There's also dialogue throughout Fireheart Rise that the Pact is hoping to get the High Legions' cooperation (they do, where do you think the tanks came from for the Vigil's plan at Further into Orr?).

All of it was simply to get the resources to assault Zhaitan, not for the sake of eliminating those threats.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:It was a rather big part of the Living World Season 1 near the end there. Laranthir even came out near the end and went all "our bad!"

Oh, I remember that dialogue. But he never once admits the Pact was wrong about not involving themselves with Scarlet.

For players not completing Forging the Pact:Laranthir: That's not what we do. We've been tasked with slaying the Elder Dragons. Defending a city from an attack falls outside our charter. But then we heard the dragon's cry.PC: What do you mean?Laranthir: We believe Scarlet's drilling roused a dragon. If we'd known that was her plan, we could have justified getting involved.

For those who completed Victory or DeathPC: Why is the Pact here?Laranthir: When I heard there was some connection between Scarlet and the dragons, I petitioned to bring one ship to survey the issue.PC: But the Pact has a greater mission.Laranthir: Exactly why it took everything I had to convince Trahearne to spare one ship. Protecting cities from deviants isn't our mission. But, there may be a dragon involved.

(dialogue for those who completed Forging the Pact but not Victory or Death was never recorded, alas).

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:You are aware that the Raid map is one map split into three parts, and not three separate maps right?

They are actually both. This is how their loading screen is different in both image and the name label. And you apparently didn't get what I was saying. You're very clearly still on the eastern side of that "man made wall" the entire time within Salvation Pass, but on the world map you're on top of this guy's position.

The maps literally overlap.

Seriously, if you don't believe me, find someone who has a Slothasor kill and check it out. You'll understand what I mean immediately.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:It's delusional to assume Anet will keep doing what they have been doing, and what every other MMO does with expansions, which is, introduce new features? Now THAT is delusional.

It's delusional to think they'll focus on underwater content.

There's more possibilities for on land content than gliders and mounts.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:No, Orr showed us nothing of the sort. Orr showed us Dragon Minions have personality. Zhaitan himself was an emotionless, speechless, giant monster, that we pressed 2 to kill. Who never did anything besides make some roaring noises.

In words, sure. But if you look at the actions and hierarchy of Zhaitan, and the things it fed its minions, it's pretty clear there was intelligence and purpose behind those actions. As we discussed earlier in this thread, the risen - unlike any other dragon minions - keep their exact position... except for royalty. Zhaitan has been maintaining an undead kingdom, who's minions act largely like they did in life but all the while promoting eternal life through undeath, reunion with lost loves and friends, and Zhaitan to rule them.

Icebrood never talk about Jormag acting to rule. Neither do mordrem. They never talk about eternal life through undeath or reunion with lost loves and friends. Icebrood talk about strength, about might makes right, and will even avoid corrupting those who prove themselves stronger than icebrood all the while the Sons hunt down icebrood to prove their own strength to Jormag. Mordrem and Mordremoth talked about the latter being the source of life - "home" for not just sylvari but all living creatures, about destroying the world we know and yet Mordremoth "is the world".

Even if the words come out of minions mouths, the mentality was instilled by the Elder Dragon's will - after all, dragon minions have no free will of their own.

A creature does not need to speak to us to show us that they're intelligent, cunning things. After all, Abaddon never spoke a word. Not even in his scriptures. We literally never once hear or read Abaddon's own words let alone his manner of speaking. And yet he's a cunning, manipulative god while the Elder Dragons, who are no different in this aspect, are mindless beasts?

Talk about racism. :tongue:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:I don't either, which is why no one suggested as such.

"This is part of the reason I suspect Anet will find a way to have any expansion focused on Bubbles take us to Cantha so we can deal with the "Dragon Empire", the Ministry of Purity, the Kurzick/Luxon conflict, and possibly some Tengu problem, that will inevitably serve as the basis for the story there.

A Jormag expansion will likely have to deal with some Centaurs, the Charr, Norn, Koda, and the other races that come from the far north."

That's using the Elder Dragons as stepping stones to other threats. Using the DSD as a stepping stone to get us to Cantha for those threats; using Jormag as a stepping stone for some plot involving centaurs, charr, norn, and koda(n).

You very much did suggest it.