Damage Nerf By the Numbers

So I logged on (I know I said I wouldn't but I only looked at numbers...not play)

I took the time to compare my damage numbers on tool tip in PvE to WvW in Obsidian Sanctum (eliminates all wvw buffs) on dagger & sword nerfed skills. Here's what I found:

Dagger:

AA1 730x2 - 548x2 is a 25% decreaseAA2 776 - 594 is a 25% decrease

Sword:

AA1&2 769 - 577 is a 25% decreaseLarc Strike 1538 - 1250 is a 19% decrease

Pulm Impact 2147 - 1309 is a 40% decrease

This numbers are well above the stated numbers Anet proposed to the community and in line with EXACTLY what I said would happen. This is why you are all feeling that your thief hits like a wet noodle b/c Anet in fact traded all your weapons for wet noodles.

You're welcome

UPDATE

found another thief in WvW and we did some quick damage tests.

PI in WvW hit for 1,987 in the guild hall hit for 3,531 thats a 44% damage nerfSlice hit for 1708 in WvW in guild hall it hit for 2,155 to 2555 thats a 21%-34% nerfLarcenous strike hit for 4,834 in WvW and hit for 6,283-6,407 for a 34%-35% nerf

Obviously needs more testing for exact numbers, but these ranges are FAR greater than what anet told us

But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown

We should be "balanced" into a single build cause it works. Seems a legit argument.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown.

Most of our damage comes from the auto chain and most weapon skills are more utility than damage. Unless you went condition or pulmonary impact. Though these numbers do not look like what the patch notes stated. I'll take a closer look when I get home.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown.

Spamming 3 on S/D has never been how you played the build. Auto attacks were a significant portion of our damage. Auto attack damage nerfs were not warranted, a LS damage nerf was. They also overdid the trait ICD nerfs. 16 seconds to 40 seconds on pain response? 40 seconds to 90 seconds on instant reflexes? Seriously overkill.

I am just convinced Anet can't do anything right. Guess I am not touching my thief until they fix this shit.

@"AngelsShadow.7360" said:But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown.

I think you're in the wrong thread

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

Another point I need some to follow up on is actual damage results

I just used the tool tips but we need to go a step further.

We need PI test in obsidian sanctum and then in a guild hall against the same person.

thanks to whoever can

I just wanted to confirm what you are saying at least with the dagger auto attack chain. Going based off pve naked with an incinerator with no power stats on it to pvp with no gear equipped other than dagger as well numbers were as follows

PvE Autos 308x2 327 424PvP Autos 214x2 231 391

Overall decreases were 30% 30% 8%If you total the damage amounts for the full chain you get 1367 for PvE and 1050 in PvP which is roughly around 23% decrease give or take

I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting sword AA on TB scourge for 1.5k... That's very low and not even worth going into melee range

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

Thief does still too much damage, it should be nerfed even more.

@Tails.9372 said:Thief does still too much damage, it should be nerfed even more.

That's about as helpful as saying that druid should heal less. It's kinda the point of the profession....

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting th scourge for 1.5k...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

on which skill?

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting th scourge for 1.5k...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

Oops. AA.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting th scourge for 1.5k...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

Dagger or sword?

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting th scourge for 1.5k...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

Sword. Dunno what dagger does. Should of added this in original post

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I thought the numbers were far lower than what patch notes said. In wvw i am now critting th scourge for 1.5k...

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065

You should get someone to hit in WvW then take them to your guild hall and hit them again. Record the disparity

The AA changes should be reversed. The ICD increases on Pain Response and Instant Reflexes should be about half of what they did in pvp.

The OP ignored that there is a third attack in the auto chain which wasn't nerfed. This represents excatly ANets aim for the patch to decrease the impact of instant and ressource-free attacks. The third auto gives the opponent time to react (as auto 1 and 2 need to hit before). That's why its damage remains the same.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Official Numbers:

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW

High Level Goals:

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

• Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

It's super easy for a teef to perform a full auto chain as he sets it up from range at will with a stun/daze (steal) or blind (shadowshot) or immob (sword 2). If it turns out that teef now lacks damage they will buff heartseeker (like they even wanted, but finally did not, because of community feedback).

@"KrHome.1920" said:The OP ignored that there is a third attack in the auto chain which wasn't nerfed. This represents excatly ANets aim for the patch to decrease the impact of instant and ressource-free attacks. The third auto gives the opponent time to react (as auto 1 and 2 need to hit before). That's why its damage remains the same.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Official Numbers:

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW

High Level Goals:

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

• Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

It's super easy for a teef to perform a full auto chain as he sets it up from range at will with a stun/daze (steal) or blind (shadowshot) or immob (sword 2). If it turns out that teef now lacks damage they will buff Heartseeker (like they even wanted, but finally did not, because of community feedback).

What? Every step of the auto chain was reduced. You can go in game and check it for yourself strip your armor off back to base 1k power and compare the numbers in pvp and pve to each other.

Numbers from in game

PvE Autos 308x2 327 424PvP Autos 214x2 231 391

Overall decreases were 30% 30% 8%If you total the damage amounts for the full chain you get 1367 for PvE and 1050 in PvP which is roughly around 23% decrease give or take.

They didn't buff heartseeker not because of community feedback but because we as thieves didn't want to go back to HS spam build of old.

Also Auto Attacks != instant cast spells

updated original post with real time numbers

Thanks to Heassal some random BG fella for helping me

@"KrHome.1920" said:The OP ignored that there is a third attack in the auto chain which wasn't nerfed. This represents excatly ANets aim for the patch to decrease the impact of instant and ressource-free attacks. The third auto gives the opponent time to react (as auto 1 and 2 need to hit before). That's why its damage remains the same.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Official Numbers:

• Dagger Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.85, 1.1 to 0.6, 0.65, 1.1 (-15% overall) in PvP and WvW
• Sword Autoattack chain: Reduced the power coefficients from 0.8, 0.8, 1.3 to 0.6, 0.6, 1.3 (-14% overall) in PvP and WvW

High Level Goals:

Reduce effectiveness of offensive instant cast skills/traits

• Instant cast spells don't give players an opportunity to respond. While we don't want to remove combos utilizing instant cast abilities, we wanted to reduce the impact they have.

It's super easy for a teef to perform a full auto chain as he sets it up from range at will with a stun/daze (steal) or blind (shadowshot) or immob (sword 2). If it turns out that teef now lacks damage they will buff heartseeker (like they even wanted, but finally did not, because of community feedback).

No I did not ignore it. The fact in the matter a thief in a fight very rarely will land all 3 AA's unless there is some quickness involved. This is very apparent with the last sword AA due to its extended cast time.

Now that being said for my reasoning if you read my update you'll see that the damage reduction is FAR worse than what you were told. I'm getting 21-34% nerf in AA 1 & 2 damage on sword with a 34-35% Larcenous strike nerf. That's real time damage numbers.

I got facts what you got?

screen shot's from wvw OS and LA pve.OS https://imgur.com/a/XYnFSLA https://imgur.com/a/rNJ6b

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:screen shot's from wvw OS and LA pve.OS https://imgur.com/a/XYnFSLA https://imgur.com/a/rNJ6b

Which is 25% Though it looks like you may have buffs applied as the numbers are blue. Even with no armor and base weapons equipped it seems the nerf is between 25-30%