Bring PvP passive nerfs to WvW - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Bring PvP passive nerfs to WvW

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  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @Euryon.9248 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:
    Passive' s are fine anet please don't listen to the people who scream for nerfs constantly and are never happy. PvP and WvW should never ever have identical balance changes.

    Warrior literally has 2x as much uptime of "don't hit me" stances in WvW than they do in PvP. Not bring identical is one thing, but this is too big of a split.

    I don't get how anyone even defends passives, getting rewarded for being hit too much or CC'd is dumb. I saw a great suggestion about passives traits adding 1 ammo to the existing utility skill instead of auto proccing, but then there's still the problem of having to run said utility (like Endure Pain) to get the benefit of the 2nd ammo.

    Speaking about warrior since you brought it up, warrior needs more survivability in wvw over pvp and if you wvw and frontline then you understand why. Even good warriors get dropped by coordinated groups in wvw if they get properly focused. Passives won't save you.

    I don't mind passives going away if that's what anet wants to do. Just make sure and drop damage in return to help balance.

    More survivability? The warrior is the only class that can take a full enemy blob head-on to cast winds, and get back to its own zerg.

    As I said before warriors who get focused never make it to the zerg or die before they make it back.

    Completely untrue; this is what happens when a zerg focuses a warrior, this is what they see;

    0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, block, block, block, block, block, block, block, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,0,0

    Rinse and repeat. That should not be allowed to fly under any circumstance. There are many things that should be removed not only from the warrior, but this is one of them.

    Completely untrue. I almost always die if I get focused when trying to throw a wind. Without the passives you can take out the "almost".

    Tell you what, you can nerf the passives if you also take out stealth, scourge spam, the laughably OP mesmer builds, reduce rev hammer to 900 range, etc. Just gut every class in some way, then we can all be miserable.

    Passives that auto proc and require NO skill from the player are not on the same level at all as those things you listed.

    I agree, Rev hammer is far worse in a Zerg.

    1. Already got nerfed
    2. Is revs only remotely viable role in a PvP/WvW setting anymore
    3. You can strafe and avoid CoR.

    It’s this kind of mentality that made the game the unfun AoE spamfiesta it is today. High damage (8-15k damage) skills shouldn’t be on a 4s cool down.

    Maybe if we didn't have 10 billion passives proccing 20x every fight we wouldn't need such crazy high damage.

    You missed the point, I have put it in bold for you. Skill is using the right skill at the right moment, not spamming skills so it eventually lands at the right moment.

    Also how do I get 10 billion passive in a single build?

    aside from deadeye everyone is spamming attacks and deadeye is not really known as a high skill build...but deadeye has few issues with procs as they are often bypassed.

  • Aguna.3497Aguna.3497 Member ✭✭

    If they nerf warriors passives then theres no point for us being melee peeps in large scale fights full of ranged AOEs and condi spams. And whats wrong with surviving after placing a bubble and running back to our safe zone? And whats wrong with blocks? Thats our shield skill you know, not a proc.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aguna.3497 said:
    And whats wrong with surviving after placing a bubble and running back to our safe zone? And whats wrong with blocks? Thats our shield skill you know, not a proc.

    Probably wrong you can still do full damage while being immune to direct damage though. If you're shield blocking you're not doing damage so that's ok, it's also ok because it's an active skill not a passive proc, so it's up to the player and not the system to properly time when to use it.

    One of the arguments here is classes relying on passive auto procs instead of having to use active skills, that's where the "skillful play" part comes into playing the game. Worse yet is these same classes that have the trait passive procs can also use the active skill version too, they should look into taking out the trait skills and either change timers on the active skills or add ammo if need be. Then replace the traits with other stuff that will help with survivability other than immune to damage, which just seems like a lazy excuse to add higher damage to the game, like aoes.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Aguna.3497Aguna.3497 Member ✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Aguna.3497 said:
    And whats wrong with surviving after placing a bubble and running back to our safe zone? And whats wrong with blocks? Thats our shield skill you know, not a proc.

    Probably wrong you can still do full damage while being immune to direct damage though. If you're shield blocking you're not doing damage so that's ok, it's also ok because it's an active skill not a passive proc, so it's up to the player and not the system to properly time when to use it.

    One of the arguments here is classes relying on passive auto procs instead of having to use active skills, that's where the "skillful play" part comes into playing the game. Worse yet is these same classes that have the trait passive procs can also use the active skill version too, they should look into taking out the trait skills and either change timers on the active skills or add ammo if need be. Then replace the traits with other stuff that will help with survivability other than immune to damage, which just seems like a lazy excuse to add higher damage to the game, like aoes.

    As a melee frontliner what other defensive utilities can we use besides our shield block then? Banners? Shouts? Physical skills? With all the boon corrupts and condis in our face, its hard being a melee frontliner. Idm if they nerf our passives or remove them even as long as they give us something that helps us out with our role.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aguna.3497 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Aguna.3497 said:
    And whats wrong with surviving after placing a bubble and running back to our safe zone? And whats wrong with blocks? Thats our shield skill you know, not a proc.

    Probably wrong you can still do full damage while being immune to direct damage though. If you're shield blocking you're not doing damage so that's ok, it's also ok because it's an active skill not a passive proc, so it's up to the player and not the system to properly time when to use it.

    One of the arguments here is classes relying on passive auto procs instead of having to use active skills, that's where the "skillful play" part comes into playing the game. Worse yet is these same classes that have the trait passive procs can also use the active skill version too, they should look into taking out the trait skills and either change timers on the active skills or add ammo if need be. Then replace the traits with other stuff that will help with survivability other than immune to damage, which just seems like a lazy excuse to add higher damage to the game, like aoes.

    As a melee frontliner what other defensive utilities can we use besides our shield block then? Banners? Shouts? Physical skills? With all the boon corrupts and condis in our face, its hard being a melee frontliner. Idm if they nerf our passives or remove them even as long as they give us something that helps us out with our role.

    You haven't played warrior before full zerk/marauder became a thing right?

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    Only in a game with the "quality" of playerbase as GW2 do people think pressing a button equates to "skill" and are obsessed about the effect of the odd passive proc on a relatively long cooldown on "skillful play", whilst oblivious to the fact the most passive thing about this game by far and the thing that reduces the skill level by far, far more than anything else, is that the game aims for you.

    And to top it off that's in a part of the forum where most of the players spend their time zerging.... /facepalm.

  • Hanth.2978Hanth.2978 Member ✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:
    Passive' s are fine anet please don't listen to the people who scream for nerfs constantly and are never happy. PvP and WvW should never ever have identical balance changes.

    Warrior literally has 2x as much uptime of "don't hit me" stances in WvW than they do in PvP. Not bring identical is one thing, but this is too big of a split.

    I don't get how anyone even defends passives, getting rewarded for being hit too much or CC'd is dumb. I saw a great suggestion about passives traits adding 1 ammo to the existing utility skill instead of auto proccing, but then there's still the problem of having to run said utility (like Endure Pain) to get the benefit of the 2nd ammo.

    Speaking about warrior since you brought it up, warrior needs more survivability in wvw over pvp and if you wvw and frontline then you understand why. Even good warriors get dropped by coordinated groups in wvw if they get properly focused. Passives won't save you.

    I don't mind passives going away if that's what anet wants to do. Just make sure and drop damage in return to help balance.

    More survivability? The warrior is the only class that can take a full enemy blob head-on to cast winds, and get back to its own zerg.

    As I said before warriors who get focused never make it to the zerg or die before they make it back.

    Completely untrue; this is what happens when a zerg focuses a warrior, this is what they see;

    0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, block, block, block, block, block, block, block, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,0,0

    Rinse and repeat. That should not be allowed to fly under any circumstance. There are many things that should be removed not only from the warrior, but this is one of them.

    I mean maybe we are playing different games? When we see a warrior driving in we almost always get it down. It's a lot harder in the middle of a fight but thats because everything is so chaotic. Find the warrior, focus it with cancer and laugh.

  • @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

    I'd welcome more discussion though.

    How about we talk about fixing the AoE spam in WvW so we can move on to fixing/removing the auto proc traits?

    While we're at it can we also please talk about how poison completely negates War Banner elite? Like what in the h*ck is that about? It's an elite with a super high cool down, and a huge animation and cast time that's easy to interrupt. If we can get one down it should bloody well work no matter what.

    Of course it won't be easy. Nothing worthwhile ever is.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Aguna.3497 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Aguna.3497 said:
    And whats wrong with surviving after placing a bubble and running back to our safe zone? And whats wrong with blocks? Thats our shield skill you know, not a proc.

    Probably wrong you can still do full damage while being immune to direct damage though. If you're shield blocking you're not doing damage so that's ok, it's also ok because it's an active skill not a passive proc, so it's up to the player and not the system to properly time when to use it.

    One of the arguments here is classes relying on passive auto procs instead of having to use active skills, that's where the "skillful play" part comes into playing the game. Worse yet is these same classes that have the trait passive procs can also use the active skill version too, they should look into taking out the trait skills and either change timers on the active skills or add ammo if need be. Then replace the traits with other stuff that will help with survivability other than immune to damage, which just seems like a lazy excuse to add higher damage to the game, like aoes.

    As a melee frontliner what other defensive utilities can we use besides our shield block then? Banners? Shouts? Physical skills? With all the boon corrupts and condis in our face, its hard being a melee frontliner. Idm if they nerf our passives or remove them even as long as they give us something that helps us out with our role.

    It's a design issue. Being able to deal damage while being immune results in massive scaling issues. In a well desinged and balanced environment you trade damage for armor. A warrior does not need to do that. That's the problem.

    Other classes have their own design issues, like scourge that does too much in large scale and is too weak in 1v1 or thief that will never be balanced to a point where it is fun and challenging to fight at the same time because of its mobility.

  • BMW.2951BMW.2951 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

    I'd welcome more discussion though.

    This. WvW and spvp are ruined because of the dumb aoes from Scourges. Figure out a way to fix this and players will actually enjoy pvp again.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @Euryon.9248 said:

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @Voltekka.2375 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:

    @BeepBoopBop.5403 said:

    @Hanth.2978 said:
    Passive' s are fine anet please don't listen to the people who scream for nerfs constantly and are never happy. PvP and WvW should never ever have identical balance changes.

    Warrior literally has 2x as much uptime of "don't hit me" stances in WvW than they do in PvP. Not bring identical is one thing, but this is too big of a split.

    I don't get how anyone even defends passives, getting rewarded for being hit too much or CC'd is dumb. I saw a great suggestion about passives traits adding 1 ammo to the existing utility skill instead of auto proccing, but then there's still the problem of having to run said utility (like Endure Pain) to get the benefit of the 2nd ammo.

    Speaking about warrior since you brought it up, warrior needs more survivability in wvw over pvp and if you wvw and frontline then you understand why. Even good warriors get dropped by coordinated groups in wvw if they get properly focused. Passives won't save you.

    I don't mind passives going away if that's what anet wants to do. Just make sure and drop damage in return to help balance.

    More survivability? The warrior is the only class that can take a full enemy blob head-on to cast winds, and get back to its own zerg.

    As I said before warriors who get focused never make it to the zerg or die before they make it back.

    Completely untrue; this is what happens when a zerg focuses a warrior, this is what they see;

    0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, immune, block, block, block, block, block, block, block, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0,0,0

    Rinse and repeat. That should not be allowed to fly under any circumstance. There are many things that should be removed not only from the warrior, but this is one of them.

    Completely untrue. I almost always die if I get focused when trying to throw a wind. Without the passives you can take out the "almost".

    Tell you what, you can nerf the passives if you also take out stealth, scourge spam, the laughably OP mesmer builds, reduce rev hammer to 900 range, etc. Just gut every class in some way, then we can all be miserable.

    Passives that auto proc and require NO skill from the player are not on the same level at all as those things you listed.

    I agree, Rev hammer is far worse in a Zerg.

    1. Already got nerfed
    2. Is revs only remotely viable role in a PvP/WvW setting anymore
    3. You can strafe and avoid CoR.

    It’s this kind of mentality that made the game the unfun AoE spamfiesta it is today. High damage (8-15k damage) skills shouldn’t be on a 4s cool down.

    That's actually the reason i swaped from guardian to hammer rev zerker, players wont see it comming due all the visual trash and spam or probably wont be rendered in the oter side :astonished:

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @obastable.5231 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

    I'd welcome more discussion though.

    How about we talk about fixing the AoE spam in WvW so we can move on to fixing/removing the auto proc traits?

    While we're at it can we also please talk about how poison completely negates War Banner elite? Like what in the h*ck is that about? It's an elite with a super high cool down, and a huge animation and cast time that's easy to interrupt. If we can get one down it should bloody well work no matter what.

    Never will happen, that means classes need to change to PVE as well, ine thing is separete skills to change damage quoficients, other is change how the skill work,

    TDLR: expect more aoe to counter aoe.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

    I'd welcome more discussion though.

    Was discussing this with guild and was reminded of this topic again. We mostly deal with small scale combats, so we really notice the passives as intrusive in every-day playing.

    But essentially if a class needs this kind of passives to survive in large size combat, I can come to no other conclusion that something is really kittened up with the large scale combat.

    The game has a big problem with Scaling, as in 50 people can dump all their damage skills on a single target and watch him disappear, 50 players at level 10 in white gear could probably wipe out even the most defensive character in 1-2 seconds. And this problem sticks out as a sore thumb in any kind of balancing factor in WvW.


    I agree with many others here, that says that AOE's is an overused mechanic and is spam-able at this point. Aoe's should function more like Elementalists Meteor Storm and be something impact-full on a long cool-down, and not like Rev Hammer CoR spam-able every 4 seconds hidden by all the graphical fairy dust clutter on the screen.

    So AoE's should definitively have a look over and be reduced:

    • Generally shorter range
    • Generally fewer AOE
    • Generally longer cooldowns

    In exchange they can often be buffed up in other areas, and some exceptions should exist, like Elementalist's Meteor Storm for example should remain as is, as it already got a decent cool-down.

    Cool-downs should be changed so you can't constantly spam AoE's, and must have down times in-between, several small AoE's could be changed to direct attacks with other effects like bounces or minimal effects on nearby targets. And most AoE shouldn't be 1200 range, but between 600-900 range.

    All of this will likely be a headache of proportions to implement and balance, I understand that, and don't envy anyone that task.


    One thought on how to deal with the scaling problem, was to use the one system that does scale, Combos.

    Since it will likely be near impossible to handle the player number scaling by stats or mechanics (since you can't exactly buff or de-buff players based on numbers), the one system you have in place that doesn't limit itself is the Combo system.

    By making the combo system more impact-full in group-play, it can be used as a counterweight of more organized/skillful play vs numbers. This would need a revision of the Combo system, especially the Combo Field's and their effects, as you'd need to consider making effects that affect more allies/enemies with effects that are particularly good against large amounts of enemies.

    Examples, Light Field can be used to blast to remove conditions, this might need an increase in range and removal of max targets, so it starts becoming useful in larger groups/fights. Where a Dark Field able to blast Blindness to every enemy within a certain area could definitively change a combat around, especially if you continually blast it for the 4 seconds the field last. Ice field might actually turn interesting.

    The current range on a blast finisher is 360, increasing this to around 500-600, with a larger target limit (perhaps even consider them like siege with 50 target limit) would make them impact a lot more.

    With the idea above, you can also make "all" the remaining AoE's into combo fields, so AoE = combo field, most of the time. That way they will also have a use tactically instead of just spaming on enemy.


    In short, you're going to need a own system to try to balance out the problems in Large Size combat, if you're going to be able to tone down the AoE spam we currently have.

    All so we can get rid of passive mechanics.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
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  • Eleazar.9478Eleazar.9478 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

    I'd welcome more discussion though.

    At the same time, it just makes it harder and less enjoyable for smaller groups, even with the world links my server FC is mainly in the BLs getting in 2 to 5 man fights. There's alot of smaller group interaction and I've pretty much stopped playing wvw with how lame the fights feel. I understand roaming can never be a real focus of wvw but it's a part I enjoy and the fights have mainly been just fighting passive riddiled builds were you end up fighting forever (mango warriors, boon druids, condi thief's, mesmers) there's nothing fun about constantly seeing immune or seeing a enemy's health pool constantly Regen.

    maybe you guys can look at reducing the radius of AOEs? Or what if you guys changed the shape of AOEs, instead of being big giant red circles maybe make some more skill shot (like ranger staff vine surge) In understand why that's a big ask but as long as AOEs are so effective gaurd and necro will allways be top tier and push the other classes out. The balance in wvw is pretty horrendous while spvp other than Mesmer it's been really good this season, I'd really like to see passives just keep getting nerfed.

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭

    First, i think what thing that should be nice is that when the Scourge use his Sand Shade skills F1/F2/F3/F4 /F5 (default) damage/debuff and condition apply only works on his F1 area not also around him. Only barrier should be apply to both scourge area and his F1.
    Why i explain this. when are trying to play with some distance against a scourge, he can easily put you a lot of condition and damage from his skills but when you tried to play in close combat it applies also a lot of damage so there is no really counter play instead playing pirateship.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Redponey.8352 said:
    First, i think what thing that should be nice is that when the Scourge use his Sand Shade skills F1/F2/F3/F4 /F5 (default) damage/debuff and condition apply only works on his F1 area not also around him. Only barrier should be apply to both scourge area and his F1.
    Why i explain this. when are trying to play with some distance against a scourge, he can easily put you a lot of condition and damage from his skills but when you tried to play in close combat it applies also a lot of damage so there is no really counter play instead playing pirateship.

    There is counter-play though; ranged classes. Ranger, Thief, and I imagine even Dragonhunter could do it.. I've just found Ranger does it the best and the quickest. It's the biggest mismatch currently between classes.

    I could just as easily say there is no counter-play between Rangers and warriors. Everything you seem to fire at it is either blocked, immune, evaded, reflected, or met with 0, 0, 0, 0 ,0. When you do it, the damage is minimal, so basically the warrior can waltz right in unabated and mow down the Ranger with ease. No counter-play, so warrior needs to be changed in the sense, that they should loose all their ability to mitigate any damage, and reflects. Is it going to happen? No, because there is counter-play to warriors, Scourges. In fact, I've found a scourge with a scepter hitting 1,1,1,1,1 leaves warriors completely helpless. They come in too close they get shade bombed, they try to run, they get sceptered to death losing all their boons. Nerf Scourges then? No, grab a ranged class, preferably a Ranger.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    Not sure which is worse meta, the ever healing near unkillable firebrands on the frontline or now the immortal spellbreakers with 8s of direct damage immunity and condition cleanses up the ying yang from their zerg that took their place on the front line. Hey guess what we need to do now, bring even more scourge. Can't wait to see what happens on tuesday to further screw up balance.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @Redponey.8352 said:
    First, i think what thing that should be nice is that when the Scourge use his Sand Shade skills F1/F2/F3/F4 /F5 (default) damage/debuff and condition apply only works on his F1 area not also around him. Only barrier should be apply to both scourge area and his F1.
    Why i explain this. when are trying to play with some distance against a scourge, he can easily put you a lot of condition and damage from his skills but when you tried to play in close combat it applies also a lot of damage so there is no really counter play instead playing pirateship.

    There is counter-play though; ranged classes. Ranger, Thief, and I imagine even Dragonhunter could do it.. I've just found Ranger does it the best and the quickest. It's the biggest mismatch currently between classes.

    I could just as easily say there is no counter-play between Rangers and warriors. Everything you seem to fire at it is either blocked, immune, evaded, reflected, or met with 0, 0, 0, 0 ,0. When you do it, the damage is minimal, so basically the warrior can waltz right in unabated and mow down the Ranger with ease. No counter-play, so warrior needs to be changed in the sense, that they should loose all their ability to mitigate any damage, and reflects. Is it going to happen? No, because there is counter-play to warriors, Scourges. In fact, I've found a scourge with a scepter hitting 1,1,1,1,1 leaves warriors completely helpless. They come in too close they get shade bombed, they try to run, they get sceptered to death losing all their boons. Nerf Scourges then? No, grab a ranged class, preferably a Ranger.

    actually you mean in a 1v1 fight but most of fight in WvW is Bus vs Bus or zerg vs Zerg with only pirateship fight for most balanced one (when both zerg or bus dont get one pushed) or just one push. WvW is a part of roaming it's clear that a part of the game mode but the biggest part fight is atleast bus vs bus. That is in this format that scourge is completly overpowered by making no approches possible for melee.

    And i would add , with boon corruption (resistance => immo and stab=> fear) when you get debuff , you're for the most of time dead. People will abuse of this because it's too easy to corrupt and condibomb with some distance for scourge and you add some rev zerk with hammer , it's actually GG WP you better played.

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