Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged] - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

145791029

Comments

  • FyzE.3472FyzE.3472 Member ✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    DE's Death judgement has more than 2 ways to avoid it, yet people still complain about it lol. Welcome to the forums ;-D

  • @FyzE.3472 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    DE's Death judgement has more than 2 ways to avoid it, yet people still complain about it lol. Welcome to the forums ;-D

    And yet it’s those people that we balance for. Yay!

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    waiting on that day to come..... mesmer nerf hammer Mid season shall be upon us soooooooooooooooooooooon

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    I do LoS phantasms, but it rarely helps unless I know exactly when the clone spam is about to begin and I have PF ready to go.

    Additionally, crying "L2P" when there's about a hundred clones rushing you is kind of difficult. Unlike a ranger's pet, it's hard to tell what each individual phantasm is doing in the heat of the moment. And that's sort of the problem -- large telegraphs on things I don't have the luxury to pay attention to doesn't help me in any way.

    And that also ignores the amount of disengage the mesmer has too. They can do some nasty damage and if they're in trouble open a portal halfway across the map, cleanse/heal with ease, then take the portal right back. Here's a thought: Want to balance portal in PvP? Let enemies take the portals too.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

    Yeah probably because they hate fighting other players.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

    Yeah probably because they hate fighting other players.

    Very possibly. Point is though, the Mesmer player chose to initiate a 1 vs 5.

  • @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

    Yeah probably because they hate fighting other players.

    Very possibly. Point is though, the Mesmer player chose to initiate a 1 vs 5.

    ...and? Thieves do it, warriors do it, Druids.... if you’re attempting to make a point you’re not.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

    Yeah probably because they hate fighting other players.

    Very possibly. Point is though, the Mesmer player chose to initiate a 1 vs 5.

    ...and? Thieves do it, warriors do it, Druids.... if you’re attempting to make a point you’re not.

    No

    Thieves initiate 1v5 distraction. They don't actually fight 5 people and win.
    Druids cannot 1v5, especially in wvw where various buffs equating to large damage exist.

    Nor should a Mesmer. However, thieves DO take out groups otherwise you wouldn’t have qq threads about groups being killed by a single thief pop up on the WvW forums once a week. The problem is that group of five either suck horribly or are zerglings running full zerker with Zerg builds and will get wrecked by any class.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone or everyone on point about 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Lordrosicky.5813Lordrosicky.5813 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

  • @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    Lol

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Super Powers:

    • Highest burst damage
    • Best self defense/disengage
    • Wins rotations with self & group teleportations
    • Can run any build/amulet and still be OP
    • Immune to Arenanet nerfing

    I'm still new to GW2 / WvW, but the other day I was standing on a wall manning a cannon, and was shocked to have a Mesmer run past me, jump off, and engage 5 enemy pips that were crossing a nearby bridge - just full out Leeroy'ed them. And y'know what, they turned and run away from a 5v1.

    Yeah probably because they hate fighting other players.

    Very possibly. Point is though, the Mesmer player chose to initiate a 1 vs 5.

    ...and? Thieves do it, warriors do it, Druids.... if you’re attempting to make a point you’re not.

    No

    Thieves initiate 1v5 distraction. They don't actually fight 5 people and win.
    Druids cannot 1v5, especially in wvw where various buffs equating to large damage exist.

    Thieves initiate on a 5v1 in the hopes someone get greedy, strays too far away and they get a kill, then possible follow up kills as the other 4 split, 2 to go back and rez, 2 clueless and continuing to choo choo etc. It’s a common roaming tactic not exclusive to thieves since HoT but they’ve always pulled it off the best due to high mobility. Sometimes it is a distraction as you say and they have 2 other players ready to AoE burst 2 into downstate.

    Druids can’t 1v5? I guess you’ve never ran into the incredibly lame minstrels druids that spend half their time in stealth, 25% of the time using evades on weapon skills or running away and letting the pet do the work. Will they win? No, no class should ever win a 1v5 or at least when you win a 1v5 it’s down to your opponents ineptitude rather than your skill. However a minstrels Druid can keep 5 people occupied for a long time before everyone gets bored and moves along. Though a root at the wrong time when you can’t get out of it can make zerk players die it’s mostly annoying.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone or everyone on point about 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    Yeah a lot of people on the mesmer forums, or at least the ones worth listening to, were scratching their heads at shatterstorm as it offers more upfront damage to mesmer....because mesmer has always had a problem with upfront damage right?

    Still can do the imagined burden, chronophantasma, signet of ether CS combos and nuke a point too, I guess it’s just a good thing there’s no distortion on phantasms anymore as it would be completely uncounterable. 16 berserkers twirling through a point will destroy just about anyone, bonus for using mirror images and starting on staff to get a few extra skills into CS and adding a GW or 2 into the mix.

    The up front nuking power possible is pretty insane if someone doesn’t jump on you straight away to stop or interrupt it.

    Edit: however as I said the class received one of the biggest reworks since specialisation were introduced and while it isn’t an excuse to have overpowered aspects its worth having possibly a few more balance patches just for mesmer maybe once a month for a couple of months to really tone down what is too strong or combinations that are too strong.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone or everyone on point about 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    Yeah a lot of people on the mesmer forums, or at least the ones worth listening to, were scratching their heads at shatterstorm as it offers more upfront damage to mesmer....because mesmer has always had a problem with upfront damage right?

    Still can do the imagined burden, chronophantasma, signet of ether CS combos and nuke a point too, I guess it’s just a good thing there’s no distortion on phantasms anymore as it would be completely uncounterable. 16 berserkers twirling through a point will destroy just about anyone, bonus for using mirror images and starting on staff to get a few extra skills into CS and adding a GW or 2 into the mix.

    The up front nuking power possible is pretty insane if someone doesn’t jump on you straight away to stop or interrupt it.

    Edit: however as I said the class received one of the biggest reworks since specialisation were introduced and while it isn’t an excuse to have overpowered aspects its worth having possibly a few more balance patches just for mesmer maybe once a month for a couple of months to really tone down what is too strong or combinations that are too strong.

    Maybe instead of toning down Mesmer, they could rework all the other classes to be at Mesmer level, I think it's great to be able to use all trait lines and I would like to see that implemented on Elementalist... Give us some build diversity, it would be refreshing to drop the whole Water/Arcane and have a valid Fire/Earth build or something.

    (gunna have to try that signet now, thanks for that tip although it sounds like I'm gunna have to have precise button mashing skills)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone or everyone on point about 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    Yeah a lot of people on the mesmer forums, or at least the ones worth listening to, were scratching their heads at shatterstorm as it offers more upfront damage to mesmer....because mesmer has always had a problem with upfront damage right?

    Still can do the imagined burden, chronophantasma, signet of ether CS combos and nuke a point too, I guess it’s just a good thing there’s no distortion on phantasms anymore as it would be completely uncounterable. 16 berserkers twirling through a point will destroy just about anyone, bonus for using mirror images and starting on staff to get a few extra skills into CS and adding a GW or 2 into the mix.

    The up front nuking power possible is pretty insane if someone doesn’t jump on you straight away to stop or interrupt it.

    Edit: however as I said the class received one of the biggest reworks since specialisation were introduced and while it isn’t an excuse to have overpowered aspects its worth having possibly a few more balance patches just for mesmer maybe once a month for a couple of months to really tone down what is too strong or combinations that are too strong.

    Maybe instead of toning down Mesmer, they could rework all the other classes to be at Mesmer level, I think it's great to be able to use all trait lines and I would like to see that implemented on Elementalist... Give us some build diversity, it would be refreshing to drop the whole Water/Arcane and have a valid Fire/Earth build or something.

    No I don’t agree classes should be brought up to mesmer level. Some of the new traits are far too strong, easily stacking to 25 might shouldn’t happen without either a decent ramp up or it should be very short live, phantasmal force is just a huge damage increase. There’s also lots of other problems like how shatterstorm essentially allows you to front load or burst more on a class that already had a high burst combo. Chronophantasma is a 100% damage increase to a certain class of skills, phantasms. Then there’s also the haphazard distribution of damage mods and how some affect certain things like weapon skills and shatters but not phantasms, some affect only phantasms, some only affect shatters, the whole thing is a mess.

    While I do agree classes should have build diversity mesmers build diversity is so good because the recent rework has introduced a lot of extremely strong traits and trait synergy that shouldn’t really be left alone.

    Edit: Yeah I’ve also said woven stride on Weaver should be cleansed a condition on super speed/swiftness, would open up so much more build variety for Weaver at least.

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

  • @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    Sure if you add it to every F ability in the game

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    Sure if you add it to every F ability in the game

    or just give them one F ability like a lot of professions have.

  • Jace al Thor.6745Jace al Thor.6745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Jace al Thor.6745 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    Sure if you add it to every F ability in the game

    or just give them one F ability like a lot of professions have.

    Ele, Mesmer, Scourge, Guardian, Soulbeast, engi, rev, and berserker all have more than one F ability.
    If you count F abilities that give a second set of skills the necro counts. So out of 27 specs(core and 2 elite) 18 have more than one F ability. That leaves 9(7 if counting reaper and core necro) that have only one F ability. So that’s not a lot that’s actually the minority.

    Edited for spelling.

  • Lordrosicky.5813Lordrosicky.5813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Egorum.9506Egorum.9506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Suggestions to fix this kitten:

    Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing

    Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s. It can already be doubled with soe

    mes needs less access to instant cc. I don't even know where to take it from, but there are too many small sources

    mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy, it means the mesmers fan still slip away twice, but not 3-4 consitently. Opening them up to counterburst

    Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone

  • Lordrosicky.5813Lordrosicky.5813 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play

    How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing.

    Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization)

    There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion?

    (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.)

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion

  • Lordrosicky.5813Lordrosicky.5813 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play

    How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing.

    Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization)

    There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion?

    (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.)

    It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact.

  • I'm just sick of the greatsword sniping, so sick of it. And you can't say "Oh just dodge or use this buff" cause the point of the combo is to catch you by surprise and 100% you in 2 globals. So sick of pvp atm -_-

  • @Egorum.9506 said:
    Suggestions to fix this kitten:

    Phantasms need a flat 20% nerf, cd increase is ineffective due to signet of ether. Effectively, so long as the signet has a lower CD than the phantasm in question, a cd increase accomplishes nothing
    Once again a flat nerf to all phantasms is ridiculous. Swordsman, disenchanter, and defender do need nerfs. A 10-15% nerf to start with is acceptable. The overs have highly telegraphed cast.

    Shield needs a 1s block instead of 1.5s. It can already be doubled with soe
    @apharma.3741 has already went fairly detailed as why this is silly.
    mes needs less access to instant cc. I don't even know where to take it from, but there are too many small sources
    the class is built around CC and again this has been went into at length.

    mirage em exhaustion nerf is healthy, it means the mesmers fan still slip away twice, but not 3-4 consitently. Opening them up to counterburst

    Does not, and will not, fix anything. Remove the stun break completely. Exhaustion was designed for a class with 3 dodges and ways to regain, not regen, endurance. There’s really no need to debate this anymore.

    Sword ambush needs to either lose the daze, or lose the clone

    Sorry no bad idea. Try again.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play

    How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing.

    Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization)

    There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion?

    (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.)

    It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact.

    While shatters are instant cast they are not instant effect, something a lot of people seem to have forgotten, when you hit F1-3 the clones must run to the target and detonate. If you run into the middle of 3 illusions and the mesmer you are doing their work for them as they can shatter and all go off as they’re in range.

    If you see a bunch of clones running at you, especially when they have ranged weapons then they’re coming to shatter, kill or dodge through them and you’ve negated a 10-32s cool down ability. Additionally a player who kills clones significantly weakens the shatters, this is something a lot of people have forgotten in the post easy mode HoT game.

  • David.5974David.5974 Member ✭✭

    As revenant pvp player, I have fun against spellbreaker, holosmith, druid, every class except mesmer. Even if I put every effort to beat him I don't have any chance. But wait! Now i don't write about skilled mesmer... I can be ok with invuln, stealth.. okay some phantasm and illusions that sounds like tough enemy but where the hell he take this big health sustain? mobility? I will give bunch of gold to anyone who teach me how against mesmer!

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    If you see a bunch of clones running at you, especially when they have ranged weapons then they’re coming to shatter, kill or dodge through them and you’ve negated a 10-32s cool down ability. Additionally a player who kills clones significantly weakens the shatters, this is something a lot of people have forgotten in the post easy mode HoT game.

    Even if you couldn't make shatters instant-cast and instant-effect by aggressive positioning (75% of the time?), the current Mesmer train is all about spamming A.I that just layer auto-attacks until your'e laid to waste. Glorified Turret engi

    I seem to remember most players at your level didn’t have a problem with turret engy though.

    Having said that AI clones/phantasms is and always has been a core part of mesmer whether it be chrono, mirage or core, the difference is that now a lot of phantasm skills do damage on par with most classes regular skills and actually hit instead of being useless. I wouldn’t be surprised if signet of the ether active is changed to no longer refresh phantasms in order to address the phantasm spam and chronophantasma changed too but sadly this is a skill split patch not a proper balance patch so redesigns aren’t allowed.

    Don’t hate the mesmer class for this, hate the fact there was a hefty change to the phantasm mechanic (a good change mechanically) and instead of tweaks to it every couple of weeks we end up with no real redesigns of problem traits/skills for 2 months or more.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone or everyone on point about 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    Yeah a lot of people on the mesmer forums, or at least the ones worth listening to, were scratching their heads at shatterstorm as it offers more upfront damage to mesmer....because mesmer has always had a problem with upfront damage right?

    Still can do the imagined burden, chronophantasma, signet of ether CS combos and nuke a point too, I guess it’s just a good thing there’s no distortion on phantasms anymore as it would be completely uncounterable. 16 berserkers twirling through a point will destroy just about anyone, bonus for using mirror images and starting on staff to get a few extra skills into CS and adding a GW or 2 into the mix.

    The up front nuking power possible is pretty insane if someone doesn’t jump on you straight away to stop or interrupt it.

    Edit: however as I said the class received one of the biggest reworks since specialisation were introduced and while it isn’t an excuse to have overpowered aspects its worth having possibly a few more balance patches just for mesmer maybe once a month for a couple of months to really tone down what is too strong or combinations that are too strong.

    Maybe instead of toning down Mesmer, they could rework all the other classes to be at Mesmer level,

    That's mechanically impossible. I main an engineer, and bringing engineer up to that level would require a ground-up reevaluation of the core class and its skills. Grenades alone would be a big hurdle to balance like mesmer (casting times + flight times). Our core mechanics have aged poorly with time, whereas classes like Guardian and Mesmer have aged well. I imagine with other less-used classes such as revenant, a similar problem exists. If you want engineer at the level of mesmer again, you'll end up with a turret engineer 2.0.

    Then there's other problems with skills like portal -- no other skill in the game exists that's even comparable to its potential. The only way to balance the capability of portal is to also let enemy teams take the portal as well.

    And just in general, the 100-0 in under 3 seconds is absurd in any MMO. There are skills that have a longer casting time than it takes for mesmers to 100-0 people. I don't think everybody should be brought up to that level, because nobody should be at that level.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Rym.1469Rym.1469 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Abelisk.4527 said:

    @Ithilwen.1529 said:
    The Mesmer redesign was expressly to force shattering. That requires that we have clones. So, ANET cannot reduce clones without either completely reverting the most recent redesign or utterly crippling Mesmer.

    It's about time that other players actually had to think to play against a Mesmer and target the real Mesmer instead of simply cleaving the clones with auto attack, ( or any type of aoe, ) and ignoring them.

    This is a learn to play issue.

    They didn't force shattering, they just gave us a much bigger window to do so. This is obviously making Mesmer easier to play and more effective than ever. The burst nature of the Phantasms (NOT clones don't touch those!) is a little overtuned. I get it's for compensation for Phants not being able to attack more than once, but the changes have made this a double-edged sword.

    To me it seems to be a case of a big playstyle disparity and good will with helping PvE mesmer backfiring massively in PvP.

    1. Shatters have always been used in PvP, but they were not in PvE. So buffing shatters - with more clone-fuel for example - for PvE did buff a way of play that was already fine and the go-to in PvP as well.
    2. I'm not a mesmer player by any stretch of imagination, but from what I've seen in the past years PvP Mesmers generally shattered their phantasms on regular basis, shortly after their first/second attack. Leaving phantasms up for multiple attacks wasn't really a thing (apart from some old memes like PU), so making phantasms one-attack only seem to do nothing but buff already dominant playstyle.

    Yeah, I stream once in a blue moon.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    Phantasm damage always needs to be inferior because you can't negate the summon except by invulnerability, avoiding a phantasm auto-attack s not punishing at all to the Mesmer ?

    Omegalul,dud , all i can do is laugh from what you said . In pvp shatter builds always been prevalent because stupid and slow AI ,cant follow players ,stuck in the air and so on, noone ever complainted about OP phantasms , how bad phantasms been back then , torch phantasm been horrible, staff phantasm never hit its target because lame projectile ,sword never been ever considered taking over torch because of stealth been too important to land the burst,otherwise it was impossible. I wont forget how Helseth been raging how bad and preddictable mesmer against decent opponents and then they invented CS to help landing its burst. You should be punished for saying that.

    Phantasms inherent advantages while attacking.

    Portal was a reason and it seems ,always would be. (forgot about 10s moa's)
    Phantasms been main source of its damage (because how low mesmer personal damage) but its MUST be inferior ,much wow :)
    You mean all existing ways to stop them doing damage isnt enough ? Kill them, interrupt,dodge,blind and they died after its first attack. Blinding/losing/CC'ing owner is also the way. Dont thank me for that hint.
    They should make them do no damage so you can facetank them ?

  • Ithilwen.1529Ithilwen.1529 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2018

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I wouldn’t be surprised if signet of the ether active is changed to no longer refresh phantasms in order to address the phantasm spam and chronophantasma changed too but sadly this is a skill split patch not a proper balance patch so redesigns aren’t allowed.

    Maybe. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether aren't necessary at all. Any combination of Chrono/Mirage and core specs will do. By the way, raising Phantasm Auto-Attacks up to the power level of the attacks of Glass Cannons, that's not equality or being 'on par'. Phantasm damage always needs to be inferior because you can't negate the summon except by invulnerability, avoiding a phantasm auto-attack is not punishing at all to the Mesmer, and tracking multiple separate Phantasm attack swings requires exponential amount of awareness . On the other hand, burst rotations from non-AI users are negated in many ways and are very punishing to miss, because they're strictly limited, also you can read the burst animations by focusing on one target.

    With Mesmer balance over the years, Developers have always succeeded at raising their combat strength to at least equal footing if not greater than the average combat focused build. It's a constant theme that while they do this, they forget about things like: Portal existing, Phantasms inherent advantages while attacking. This is why Mesmer is never below A+ tier since pre-HoT.

    Mesmer was widely acknowledged "trash tier" for close to 2 years after the infamous glamour nerf. An entire category of builds and much Mesmer power was deleted from the game with the loss of clone death traits. Some traits were simply turned off, further shutting down Mesmer ( Illusionary Elasticity, a major trait was simply disabled, though it was still available to choose.)

    .. while hambow warriors and petting zoo rangers roamed free.Then there was the entire season of turret engi dominance.

    Mesmer is just finally coming up to par. The few Mesmers who have stuck it out are hardened. ( As you, learned. :) ) The fact that some are unwilling or unable to adapt to a Mesmer with a par power level is NOT a justification for a nerf.

    Mesmerizing Girl

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I wouldn’t be surprised if signet of the ether active is changed to no longer refresh phantasms in order to address the phantasm spam and chronophantasma changed too but sadly this is a skill split patch not a proper balance patch so redesigns aren’t allowed.

    Maybe. Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether aren't necessary at all. Any combination of Chrono/Mirage and core specs will do. By the way, raising Phantasm Auto-Attacks up to the power level of the attacks of Glass Cannons, that's not equality or being 'on par'. Phantasm damage always needs to be inferior because you can't negate the summon except by invulnerability, avoiding a phantasm auto-attack is not punishing at all to the Mesmer, and tracking multiple separate Phantasm attack swings requires exponential amount of awareness . On the other hand, burst rotations from non-AI users are negated in many ways and are very punishing to miss, because they're strictly limited, also you can read the burst animations by focusing on one target.

    With Mesmer balance over the years, Developers have always succeeded at raising their combat strength to at least equal footing if not greater than the average combat focused build. It's a constant theme that while they do this, they forget about things like: Portal existing, Phantasms inherent advantages while attacking. This is why Mesmer is never below A+ tier since pre-HoT.

    You can blind phantasm summons and you can LoS them where the mesmer losses out not only on the damage the phantasm provided but also the clone it would generate, added to that is that every single phantasm summon except berserker is over 1s, that’s a full 1s you can interrupt, blind or invuln it. You keep talking about the positives but neglect the negative aspects of phantasms. Additionally any form of LoS offers superior control over the abilities damage especially for melee range phantasms as you can force them into AoE or to places where it’s easy to kill and killing a phantasm is entirely possible before it’s done more than half it’s attack.

    Your problem isn’t that phantasms are on par with other classes attacks the problem is that a mesmer can disproportionately buff them, chrono phantasma is a 100% damage buff to them, phantasmal force not only buffs the mesmers damage via might but then buffs phantasms. The same is true of shatterstorm which doubles the burst potential of a mesmer with almost no drawback. This lets the mesmer take very tanky and defensive traits making them harder to kill while taking 1 or 2 skills or traits to get really high damage or burst.

    Saying mesmer was A+ before HoT was only true in an organised team with team speak as their combat ability was generally poor (where portal and moa made up for the poor combat) and strictly second to thieves in role, remember there was a reason every NA mesmer switched to thief till 6 months before HoT when the specialisation patch massively changed mesmer. Sure it wasn’t in as bad a state as ranger and whatever got shafted by the balance patch that month but it’s wasn't great to non premade players. Increasing a mesmer combat ability was needed because mesmer wasn’t being taken anywhere in the game for its combat skills but it’s unique ability to portal and some other tricks.

    You could nerf portal, to make up for this improved combat strength but how you would do that without either making it utterly useless or incredibly inconsistent between game modes I don’t know. Would be nice if you started making suggestions btw but I can probably understand why if you’ve been on a break from GW2 and don’t play the class enough to want to make suggestions.

    I agree that mesmer is overturned at the moment but what I’m saying is that it needs skill and trait reworks not numbers changes for the most part. These should also be correctly targeted too at what is genuinely the problem not like some of the suggestions like nerfing chrono shield which at most is on par with other classes if not a little weaker in some ways.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @Faux Play.6104 said:

    @Lordrosicky.5813 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I think a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Mesmer phantasms were just changed in how they work as well as some getting attack updates. This means there’s some L2P in what you avoid and how to cheese the new phantasms into doing no damage but also there’s some balancing that needs to be done, like disenchanter damage coming down a bit.

    I very rarely see anyone LoS phantasms, my favourite is how people seem to ignore the phantasmal mage pottering up behind them, stretching its arms in front of it, lifting them above its head ready for the almighty fire wave to follow. It’s very well telegraphed and you have 2 opportunities to deny the skill, first by interrupting, blinding or LoS the phantasm and secondly by killing the phantasm. How many other classes and skills in the game can you say that there’s 2 opportunities to counter it?

    Yes Elusive Mind is too strong, yes I’ve said many times even just after PoF that it was overpowered and said the stun break should be removed. Yes disenchanter damage is a tad too high but it’s also only on boonless targets which isn’t exactly common, imo it should do damage per boon removed not insane damage to boonless. Yes Swordsman is too strong, it’s the strongest offhand phantasm there is. However don’t mistake a video taking a strong build into PvP against potatoes as proof it’s too good.

    Finally remember, when you point a finger at someone else, there’s 3 pointing back at you. Many here won’t even admit to the aspects on their own classes that are overpowered.

    Oh I think some of us know what parts are overpowered but people seem to just say the class as a whole is over powered. I think there's also some over powered traits that people haven't put into action yet with the right build such as "Imagined Burdon" combined with "Mirror Images" and "Shatter Storm"... That's actually really fun with "Continuum Split" cuz if you set it up right you can mind wrack someone 4 times in 3-4s.

    To me that's OP, but to others it probably sounds stupid.

    This is why mesmer will never be balanced so it is pointless discussing it. The whole class is OP. Every trait line and most traits. To nerf it they would need significant across the board nerfs. This will take them years to do. Next patch they will probably nerf 1/2 traits, but an equally OP build will just replace it. So it will do nothing.

    The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4 across the board. I would suggest 25% nerf to f1 damage and 25% cooldown increases to the other skills. This would probably still leave mesmer as the best class in the game by far.

    just make them all have a 3/4 second to 1 second cast time.

    That would work too. It would add a little counterplay to the game

    That would butcher the mechanics though.... How does 1 daze, distort or mindwrack for some extra AoE dps on rezzers mid stomp?
    If you were rezzing in a bit of AoE or cleave, how would you distort yourself from that damage?

    (at this point the OP should just rename this thread to "Mesmer balance discussions", I know this thread was meant to be about clone spam but at this stage it seems more of a healthy mesmer discussion than the typical whinge threads)

    It adds counterplay though. It would be a really good change. 1s cast on all F abilities for mesmer. It still leaves them strong but just means a mesmer had to invest a little more time using them. And people can avoid them easier adding to counter play

    How is that counter play? That's butchering the mechanics to a point where it's worthless, you/we need that instacast effect on the Daze/Distortions for purposes like stomping/rezzing.

    Mind wrack and cry of frustration could be another story, but the amount of times I personally rely on daze/distortions instacast feature to either save someone else or stomp someone is more than I could ever count.. Like stomping a Thief for instance, they seem to port at the last second so you can't blink mid stomp to where they did so casting Daze on them near the end of the channel with 2+ illusions spread out will disrupt them from going anywhere. (good thieves don't waste time and don't usually make the stomp difficult, but majority seem to port, then stealth and put themselves out of play for another 15-20s, so this is just a generalization)

    There's also the defense side of things too, when a Thief hits you with bas venom ready to burst you, how would you counter play that without distortion?

    (I'm aware of Em/Mirage but I'm generalizing for all 3 specs.)

    It is counter play because insta-cast skills that have massive impact on the game are terrible from a balance and gameplay perspective. No point arguing about it, it is a fact.

    What are you talking about? You say this as if it's some sort of universal truth. What is the point of an interrupt with a cast time? Some abilities are supposed to be instant. Do I really have to point this out?

  • Agree with the OP.
    Mes clone pink screen puke spam IS out of control.
    But the real issue is with how much damaged mitigation they have.

    Nerf that and the rest of the class becomes somewhat balanced again.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options.

    So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team.
    (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.)

    Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three.

    Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs...

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2018

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    People hated mesmers even back when they were only good for portal, deleted by thieves and condi, and their damage was replaceable by so many better team slot options.

    So of course when it’s good or on par, or above average people will continue to complain, and claim that it’s A-net’s baby when even after years of being at the bottom beyond portal until HoT. Also outside of S1 chrono bunk, Mesmer has never been a true apex predator where people would switch to stack them on one team.
    (You know, like how the eles and wars who think A-net doesn’t love them despite in the past having multiple metas where teams sought to stack them and that was considered optimal.)

    Mesmers are well above "par" right now. They're doing the equivalent of holosmith-level damage, thief engage/disengage/ganking, and warrior tankiness when played well. Any one of those things gets calls for nerf (hell, they do now), but mesmer is doing all three.

    Typical complaint about superman mesmer that hack the game and use all trait lines possible and 2 elite specs...

    Look at you! Take your first course in trolling now?

    Seriously though, I have fought shatter mirages, shatter chronos, phantasm spam chronos, and every other build of mesmer out there. Their damage is at my level as a holosmith, and typically their disengage and/or tankiness is flabbergasting. Is there anything this class can't do?

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

145791029
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.