Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant

haventr.1630haventr.1630 Member ✭✭
edited September 26, 2017 in Revenant

So it's no doubt that the new specialization increased the damage that condi revenant does, but what else did it do? The shortbow is weak and not worth running, the skills cost too much and don't have incredibly powerful effects(at least in pve), and it gets outclassed damage wise by the jalis legend. The only hope Renegade has to change how revenant is perceived is the "Orders from above" skill. Combined with the Righteous Rebel trait, you're getting 6 seconds of alacrity and then a 12 second wait to cast again. The only problem with this is the popularity of the chronomancer. They will always have alacrity ready and available, making this seemingly powerful effect actually useless. Renegade will be what condi rev was before PoF, with a ~6k dps increase. Thoughts?

Comments

  • Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

    Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

    Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

  • lmaogg.7325lmaogg.7325 Member ✭✭
    edited September 23, 2017

    I actually ran mallyx/jalis renegade for wvw back in beta and it actually work fine. Given how weak Kalla is(even with the recent "buffs"), it just doesn't feel good to be used instead of the older stances. I see alot of people saying the bleed buff is good, well maybe for pve where the target just stands there soaking. But to me it's just a venom share which full potential comes from a 10sec overall duration if the well doesn't get interrupted/killed/you staying inside of it/enemies not getting out of range, which means it has no proper burst potential.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NinjaSonic.1392 said:
    Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

    Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

    Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

    Jalis is better solo since your bleed stacking without a group is pitiful for the energy cost.

  • I enjoy shortbow and using the utility skills.
    Pew pew pew. Roarrr summons warband.
    Pew pew pew.

    In PvE I can survive with just shortbow and the renegade skills :) obviously I do more damage if I switch to mace/axe and mallyx sometimes :)

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

  • RabbitUp.8294RabbitUp.8294 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 23, 2017

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    Yea, good point.....

  • Evolute.6239Evolute.6239 Member ✭✭✭

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Evolute.6239 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

    The complaint is that nthing with revenant has been fixed.

    You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

    Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

    The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

  • @NinjaSonic.1392 said:
    Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

    Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

    Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

    You're right about the f3 skill, but it's very situational. As for the bleed utility and the elite, I would assume you would run out of energy before you're able to switch back to mallyx, so it will probably be less damage overall. Also have to remember that each hit that jalis does has a 33% chance to give torment.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Evolute.6239 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

    The complaint is that nthing with revenant has been fixed.

    You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

    Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

    The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

    ^This

    Not only that it has not done anything to change PVE gameplay functionality or build, renegade is not viable what so ever in PvP.

  • This is pretty much what everyone said from the test betas. Renegade is basically just a PvE damage boost to condi revenant. That's it. It also gives us a ranged Condi weapon so when Condi Rev has to go ranged it has an option to do so. What it adds is the missing half of a Condi spec having a ranged option which is technically a new way to play that we didn't have before (since Hammer is all power). That doesn't mean Shortbow will replace Mace/Axe, only that it'll provide the option to play differently when we need to (IE: Melee is too hot to stay in).

    That said, I've found it very enjoyable to play so far going through the same content on my Weaver yesterday that I ended up going back to Tempest for. It's almost trivial by comparison. The condi damage is pretty unreal and I'm seeing over 3k torment/burning ticks pretty consistently together (and that's in Viper/Trailblazer WvW mix).

  • @Kodiak.3281 said:
    What it adds is the missing half of a Condi spec having a ranged option which is technically a new way to play that we didn't have before (since Hammer is all defense).

    FTFY.

  • Alyx.8479Alyx.8479 Member
    edited September 23, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

    Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

    The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

    You don't know what you're talking about.

    Soulcleave's Summit (Kala elite) skill drains 9 energy per second. Jalis and Malyx upkeep drains 7 energy per second.

    Using Soulcleave's Summit takes too much energy and is a DPS loss. Even refraining from axe 5 as the least damaging weapon skill in an effort to preserve energy, you will still run out of energy before the next legend comes off cooldown and miss out on a few uses of mace 2 and 3 because of a lack of energy.

    A quick and dirty test gave me 31k DPS with unrealistic buffs using this supposed "rotation" that you ignorantly proclaim to be the standard rotation. I'm currently experimenting with actual rotations that might bear a fleeting resemblance to the final maximum DPS rotation and i haven't ever had less than 35k in my tests.

    No investigation, no right to speak.

  • I'm so disappointed in Renegade its unreal. As someone who's not altoholic and who focused purely on Revenant since HoT constantly hoping they would do something good, waited patiently because I knew any big rework would be impossible without big launch like expansion and in my eyes they let me down so hard. I've bought expansion and I did absolutely nothing in game simply because I can't face this new elite or wait another 2 years for something to change. I have extremely hard time re-rolling something new. And I get it, I'm special in that regard but that's how it is. Sure Renegade looks amazing from "fancy effect" side but who cares about that honestly. We can say whatever we want but lets be honest Revenant needed help from devs, it needed to be pulled out of its unfinished state yet we got Renegade... I totally get it, it's not suppose to be power creep or overpowered and auto include like Herald but it certainly needed to be more than this... Ah well

  • @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

    @Kodiak.3281 said:
    What it adds is the missing half of a Condi spec having a ranged option which is technically a new way to play that we didn't have before (since Hammer is all defense).

    FTFY.

    No, you didn't. You in fact made it inaccurate and therefore worse.

  • Alyx is right. I was trying different things and using soulcleave definitely was a dps loss. You can only keep it up by maybe only autoattacking and maybe a searing fissure here and there. Otherwise, you run out of energy before mal is back up. I actually had better luck using icerazor's ire than soulcleave. Now stuff like razorclaw and soucleave does buff group damage. I'm just not sure by how much and whether it's worth the loss to personal dps.

  • @xarallei.4279 said:
    Alyx is right. I was trying different things and using soulcleave definitely was a dps loss. You can only keep it up by maybe only autoattacking and maybe a searing fissure here and there. Otherwise, you run out of energy before mal is back up. I actually had better luck using icerazor's ire than soulcleave. Now stuff like razorclaw and soucleave does buff group damage. I'm just not sure by how much and whether it's worth the loss to personal dps.

    The nice thing with Revenant is you can always calculate the maximum DPS per energy/time because of the static rates in which we regenerate energy. So in 10 seconds we can do 3 Searing Fissures, 1 Echoing Erruption, and maybe 1 Temporal Rift based on CD. This means we can say that will take 20-30 energy per cycle. We can also say, by default, that after swapping we generate 50 energy and before we can swap again we can potentially generate another 50 energy. This gives us 100 energy to work with. At that point it's simply mathing out what will add the most DPS.

    Jalis DPS is largely based on the idea that we'll crit with Hammers and proc Rampant Vex but that's a 33% of your Crit% of the number of times you hit. Soon as you flip on Hammers you're basically energy capped because 50 energy, losing 2/sec for 10s is 20 energy, and another 20-30 energy from weapon DPS and that's all you can really do.

    Pretty sure guaranteed Bleeds per hit for 10 seconds (duration of Swap Timer) will be at least on par to Vengeful Rampant Vex procs with X people procing bleeds for you. That leaves you with around 45 energy to play with. This means you could mix in Razorclaw and a Bombardment which should largely outperform the Jalis hammers and procs even solo maybe.

  • I've done some testing with this. Against a large target Citadel Bombardment is just swell. Against regular and small targets... not so much. Vengeful Hammers has a 0.2 coefficient, but it attacks roughly 4 times per second. So after 10 seconds, it'll hit all targets within melee range for 80 at base. This number is surprisingly high for a skill that we can basically fire and forget, even on a condi build. While practicing against some small sized golems, vengeful hammers out-damaged basically everything. It beats out Bombardment, it beats out Icerazor + Razorclaw,, and SoulCleave. It only loses to bombardment against large enemies.

    The renegade utilities need a group to carry them. If you're in a team of 5, the best thing you can do is use Soul Cleave, which theoretically will out-damage razorclaw in every regard. If you're running solo, just use Jalis.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alyx.8479 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

    Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

    The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

    You don't know what you're talking about.

    Soulcleave's Summit (Kala elite) skill drains 9 energy per second. Jalis and Malyx upkeep drains 7 energy per second.

    Using Soulcleave's Summit takes too much energy and is a DPS loss. Even refraining from axe 5 as the least damaging weapon skill in an effort to preserve energy, you will still run out of energy before the next legend comes off cooldown and miss out on a few uses of mace 2 and 3 because of a lack of energy.

    A quick and dirty test gave me 31k DPS with unrealistic buffs using this supposed "rotation" that you ignorantly proclaim to be the standard rotation. I'm currently experimenting with actual rotations that might bear a fleeting resemblance to the final maximum DPS rotation and i haven't ever had less than 35k in my tests.

    No investigation, no right to speak.

    Did you bother including the boost to the rest of your group?

  • Klowdy.3126Klowdy.3126 Member ✭✭✭

    It is just a damage boost for now. They have regular balancings in this game, things are going to change. I'm pretty sure their idea for our espec was to further extend the "Jack of all trades" playstyle that is the rev.

    Beta tests are never good enough for balancing, because they don't get every kind of player to participate, so they don't see all weaknesses. Their choices were release the game and make changes later, or hold up the expansion for further testing with the same group.

  • @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I've done some testing with this. Against a large target Citadel Bombardment is just swell. Against regular and small targets... not so much. Vengeful Hammers has a 0.2 coefficient, but it attacks roughly 4 times per second. So after 10 seconds, it'll hit all targets within melee range for 80 at base. This number is surprisingly high for a skill that we can basically fire and forget, even on a condi build. While practicing against some small sized golems, vengeful hammers out-damaged basically everything. It beats out Bombardment, it beats out Icerazor + Razorclaw,, and SoulCleave. It only loses to bombardment against large enemies.

    The renegade utilities need a group to carry them. If you're in a team of 5, the best thing you can do is use Soul Cleave, which theoretically will out-damage razorclaw in every regard. If you're running solo, just use Jalis.

    That's kind of what I suspect. If you are running around solo, you'll probably just want to use Jalis. But in a group setting the buffs that razorclaw or soulcleave bring might make it worth bringing kalla. I just feel like I run out of energy so fast when I use soulcleave though. Razorclaw is okay.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 24, 2017

    The energy management is tricky. It all comes down to whether you use axe 5 or not. Without it, there is barely any down-time with Soulcleave. With it, the stall is real. You'll have to modify the rotation so that axe 5 is always under malyx.

    But yes, Soulcleave is going to overpower Razorclaw in basically every regard:

    1 Soulcleave has no icd, so it scales with enemy numbers. Razorclaw has a 1 second ICD, so the damage it does doesn't scale with multiple enemies.

    2 Razorclaw currently doesn't scale with condition duration. It does 3.25 bleed ticks no matter what. SoulCleave hits for about 440, while Razorclaw hits for around 650. Thing is, with mace 2 and the mace auto hitting multiple times per second, so that lower damage quickly outpaces whatever the bleeds will inflict. A bugfix might change this. With full condi duration hitting for 1300 makes it reasonable competition for Soulcleave. Hitting twice per second is easy, but hitting 4 times or more per second is pretty hard.

    3 The sustain is real. 380 per hit is very large, and with the average player hitting 2 to 3 times per second, you're getting nearly 1k health per second. If you're cleaving multiple enemies, it is 3k health per second.

    The only time you'll be using Razorclaw is at the start of the fight, before switching to malyx. Otherwise, Soulcleave wins out.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Kidel.2057Kidel.2057 Member ✭✭✭

    Kalla skills are complete trash. Even on condi build they lower the DPS compared to (any legend)+F3 and swap to Mallyx, meaning you'll always use another legend instead of Kalla even on condi builds.
    Even if the summons are nice on paper, you need to factor the energy cost, the cast time and the fact that people can kill/cc them and you can't move away from them (as well as the enemy). Even on condi builds I'll always prefer Shiro or Jalis with Mallyx. They offer more utility and no dps drop thanks to F3.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kidel.2057 said:
    Kalla skills are complete trash. Even on condi build they lower the DPS compared to (any legend)+F3 and swap to Mallyx, meaning you'll always use another legend instead of Kalla even on condi builds.
    Even if the summons are nice on paper, you need to factor the energy cost, the cast time and the fact that people can kill/cc them and you can't move away from them (as well as the enemy). Even on condi builds I'll always prefer Shiro or Jalis with Mallyx. They offer more utility and no dps drop thanks to F3.

    Solo sure--but no way would Jalis give higher group DPS than Kalla. Like, even in you got 50'ish stacks of torment from your hammers due to an insane, insane, insane RNG streak, Soulcleave's leech damage ontop of the Razorclaw Bleeds from your sub would be more... And it doesn't rely on RNG at all.

  • Only Soulcleave is unquestionably better than Vengeful Hammers in a group. Razorclaw does a fixed amount of damage regardless if you are facing one enemy or a dozen, so against a large number of enemies, Vengeful Hammers will still beat it out.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Klowdy.3126 said:
    It is just a damage boost for now. They have regular balancings in this game, things are going to change. I'm pretty sure their idea for our espec was to further extend the "Jack of all trades" playstyle that is the rev.

    Beta tests are never good enough for balancing, because they don't get every kind of player to participate, so they don't see all weaknesses. Their choices were release the game and make changes later, or hold up the expansion for further testing with the same group.

    Define "regular". A.net moves at the speed of a glacier when it comes to actually balancing things.

  • @haventr.1630 said:
    Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant

    Which is exactly what it needed. Revenant has condi melee weapons, a condi traitline, 1 condi-ish legend and literally no viable build outside of a sub-par half-build that does mediocre damage, with no weapon swap and no real usable utilities. Granted, Renegade doesn't do much for condi damage on the main utility skills, but it does bring a much needed ranged condi weapon and a better traitline to actually make a condi build with.

    It's less a new elite specialization, and more of a "whoops we forgot to build half of this class, better finish it!" specialization.

  • @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    This is true and the even sadder part is that Herald is better to buff condi revenant because the boon duration increase helps resistance upkeep. Without resistance, condi rev is pretty much useless. Trading 33% more resistance duration for a ranged condi weapon is not worth it in PvP when you have Shiro and condi rev won't be usefull in PvE until they make torment viable against immobile targets.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hooglese.4860 said:

    @RabbitUp.8294 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    "Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"
    Is this a bad thing?

    Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

    This is true and the even sadder part is that Herald is better to buff condi revenant because the boon duration increase helps resistance upkeep. Without resistance, condi rev is pretty much useless. Trading 33% more resistance duration for a ranged condi weapon is not worth it in PvP when you have Shiro and condi rev won't be usefull in PvE until they make torment viable against immobile targets.

    I think you are confused. The condi update a while back buffed torment so it ticks for the same damage as bleeding when targets isnt moving.

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