Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant


haventr.1630

Recommended Posts

So it's no doubt that the new specialization increased the damage that condi revenant does, but what else did it do? The shortbow is weak and not worth running, the skills cost too much and don't have incredibly powerful effects(at least in pve), and it gets outclassed damage wise by the jalis legend. The only hope Renegade has to change how revenant is perceived is the "Orders from above" skill. Combined with the Righteous Rebel trait, you're getting 6 seconds of alacrity and then a 12 second wait to cast again. The only problem with this is the popularity of the chronomancer. They will always have alacrity ready and available, making this seemingly powerful effect actually useless. Renegade will be what condi rev was before PoF, with a ~6k dps increase. Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually ran mallyx/jalis renegade for wvw back in beta and it actually work fine. Given how weak Kalla is(even with the recent "buffs"), it just doesn't feel good to be used instead of the older stances. I see alot of people saying the bleed buff is good, well maybe for pve where the target just stands there soaking. But to me it's just a venom share which full potential comes from a 10sec overall duration if the well doesn't get interrupted/killed/you staying inside of it/enemies not getting out of range, which means it has no proper burst potential.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@NinjaSonic.1392 said:Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

Jalis is better solo since your bleed stacking without a group is pitiful for the energy cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:"Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"Is this a bad thing?

Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Evolute.6239 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:"Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"Is this a bad thing?

Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

The complaint is that nthing with revenant has been fixed.

You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@NinjaSonic.1392 said:Is Jalis really that much better? You can drop the bleed utility then the elite and continue your rotation just like with Jalis, it's a little more set up but considering both are adding to the group damage I'd imagine it ends up better.

Also I'm willing to bet someone comes up with a might stacking or alacrity sharing build that is half decent.

Oh and the F3 skill is really good on mobs with large hitboxes.

You're right about the f3 skill, but it's very situational. As for the bleed utility and the elite, I would assume you would run out of energy before you're able to switch back to mallyx, so it will probably be less damage overall. Also have to remember that each hit that jalis does has a 33% chance to give torment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Evolute.6239 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@Joxer.6024 said:"Renegade is literally just a damage boost to Condi Revenant"Is this a bad thing?

Well, elite specs were supposed to introduce new playstyles and mechanics, not be a damage boost over existing builds.

Renegade really wasnt a complete class. At least now Condi rev is cemented into being decent. May not be an extreme change but it's not like people have been playing condi rev in a "meta" state since its release.

The complaint is that nthing with revenant has been fixed.

You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

^This

Not only that it has not done anything to change PVE gameplay functionality or build, renegade is not viable what so ever in PvP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is pretty much what everyone said from the test betas. Renegade is basically just a PvE damage boost to condi revenant. That's it. It also gives us a ranged Condi weapon so when Condi Rev has to go ranged it has an option to do so. What it adds is the missing half of a Condi spec having a ranged option which is technically a new way to play that we didn't have before (since Hammer is all power). That doesn't mean Shortbow will replace Mace/Axe, only that it'll provide the option to play differently when we need to (IE: Melee is too hot to stay in).

That said, I've found it very enjoyable to play so far going through the same content on my Weaver yesterday that I ended up going back to Tempest for. It's almost trivial by comparison. The condi damage is pretty unreal and I'm seeing over 3k torment/burning ticks pretty consistently together (and that's in Viper/Trailblazer WvW mix).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zenith.7301 said:You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Soulcleave's Summit (Kala elite) skill drains 9 energy per second. Jalis and Malyx upkeep drains 7 energy per second.

Using Soulcleave's Summit takes too much energy and is a DPS loss. Even refraining from axe 5 as the least damaging weapon skill in an effort to preserve energy, you will still run out of energy before the next legend comes off cooldown and miss out on a few uses of mace 2 and 3 because of a lack of energy.

A quick and dirty test gave me 31k DPS with unrealistic buffs using this supposed "rotation" that you ignorantly proclaim to be the standard rotation. I'm currently experimenting with actual rotations that might bear a fleeting resemblance to the final maximum DPS rotation and i haven't ever had less than 35k in my tests.

No investigation, no right to speak.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm so disappointed in Renegade its unreal. As someone who's not altoholic and who focused purely on Revenant since HoT constantly hoping they would do something good, waited patiently because I knew any big rework would be impossible without big launch like expansion and in my eyes they let me down so hard. I've bought expansion and I did absolutely nothing in game simply because I can't face this new elite or wait another 2 years for something to change. I have extremely hard time re-rolling something new. And I get it, I'm special in that regard but that's how it is. Sure Renegade looks amazing from "fancy effect" side but who cares about that honestly. We can say whatever we want but lets be honest Revenant needed help from devs, it needed to be pulled out of its unfinished state yet we got Renegade... I totally get it, it's not suppose to be power creep or overpowered and auto include like Herald but it certainly needed to be more than this... Ah well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alyx is right. I was trying different things and using soulcleave definitely was a dps loss. You can only keep it up by maybe only autoattacking and maybe a searing fissure here and there. Otherwise, you run out of energy before mal is back up. I actually had better luck using icerazor's ire than soulcleave. Now stuff like razorclaw and soucleave does buff group damage. I'm just not sure by how much and whether it's worth the loss to personal dps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@xarallei.4279 said:Alyx is right. I was trying different things and using soulcleave definitely was a dps loss. You can only keep it up by maybe only autoattacking and maybe a searing fissure here and there. Otherwise, you run out of energy before mal is back up. I actually had better luck using icerazor's ire than soulcleave. Now stuff like razorclaw and soucleave does buff group damage. I'm just not sure by how much and whether it's worth the loss to personal dps.

The nice thing with Revenant is you can always calculate the maximum DPS per energy/time because of the static rates in which we regenerate energy. So in 10 seconds we can do 3 Searing Fissures, 1 Echoing Erruption, and maybe 1 Temporal Rift based on CD. This means we can say that will take 20-30 energy per cycle. We can also say, by default, that after swapping we generate 50 energy and before we can swap again we can potentially generate another 50 energy. This gives us 100 energy to work with. At that point it's simply mathing out what will add the most DPS.

Jalis DPS is largely based on the idea that we'll crit with Hammers and proc Rampant Vex but that's a 33% of your Crit% of the number of times you hit. Soon as you flip on Hammers you're basically energy capped because 50 energy, losing 2/sec for 10s is 20 energy, and another 20-30 energy from weapon DPS and that's all you can really do.

Pretty sure guaranteed Bleeds per hit for 10 seconds (duration of Swap Timer) will be at least on par to Vengeful Rampant Vex procs with X people procing bleeds for you. That leaves you with around 45 energy to play with. This means you could mix in Razorclaw and a Bombardment which should largely outperform the Jalis hammers and procs even solo maybe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've done some testing with this. Against a large target Citadel Bombardment is just swell. Against regular and small targets... not so much. Vengeful Hammers has a 0.2 coefficient, but it attacks roughly 4 times per second. So after 10 seconds, it'll hit all targets within melee range for 80 at base. This number is surprisingly high for a skill that we can basically fire and forget, even on a condi build. While practicing against some small sized golems, vengeful hammers out-damaged basically everything. It beats out Bombardment, it beats out Icerazor + Razorclaw,, and SoulCleave. It only loses to bombardment against large enemies.

The renegade utilities need a group to carry them. If you're in a team of 5, the best thing you can do is use Soul Cleave, which theoretically will out-damage razorclaw in every regard. If you're running solo, just use Jalis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Alyx.8479 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:You do your mace/axe 2/3/5 spam, and keep eithe mallyx elite or kalla elite up while doing those attacls. You don't use the f skills, you don't use the other utilities, and you don't even weaponswap because shortbow is a massive dps loss to mace/axe.

Renegade is essentially only giving you Kalla's fervor buff and Kalla elite's an upgrade over jalis hammers. That's it.

The way you've played condi rev for the past 3 years hasn't changed at all.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Soulcleave's Summit (Kala elite) skill drains 9 energy per second. Jalis and Malyx upkeep drains 7 energy per second.

Using Soulcleave's Summit takes too much energy and is a DPS loss. Even refraining from axe 5 as the least damaging weapon skill in an effort to preserve energy, you will still run out of energy before the next legend comes off cooldown and miss out on a few uses of mace 2 and 3 because of a lack of energy.

A quick and dirty test gave me 31k DPS with unrealistic buffs using this supposed "rotation" that you ignorantly proclaim to be the standard rotation. I'm currently experimenting with actual rotations that might bear a fleeting resemblance to the final maximum DPS rotation and i haven't ever had less than 35k in my tests.

No investigation, no right to speak.

Did you bother including the boost to the rest of your group?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is just a damage boost for now. They have regular balancings in this game, things are going to change. I'm pretty sure their idea for our espec was to further extend the "Jack of all trades" playstyle that is the rev.

Beta tests are never good enough for balancing, because they don't get every kind of player to participate, so they don't see all weaknesses. Their choices were release the game and make changes later, or hold up the expansion for further testing with the same group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I've done some testing with this. Against a large target Citadel Bombardment is just swell. Against regular and small targets... not so much. Vengeful Hammers has a 0.2 coefficient, but it attacks roughly 4 times per second. So after 10 seconds, it'll hit all targets within melee range for 80 at base. This number is surprisingly high for a skill that we can basically fire and forget, even on a condi build. While practicing against some small sized golems, vengeful hammers out-damaged basically everything. It beats out Bombardment, it beats out Icerazor + Razorclaw,, and SoulCleave. It only loses to bombardment against large enemies.

The renegade utilities need a group to carry them. If you're in a team of 5, the best thing you can do is use Soul Cleave, which theoretically will out-damage razorclaw in every regard. If you're running solo, just use Jalis.

That's kind of what I suspect. If you are running around solo, you'll probably just want to use Jalis. But in a group setting the buffs that razorclaw or soulcleave bring might make it worth bringing kalla. I just feel like I run out of energy so fast when I use soulcleave though. Razorclaw is okay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The energy management is tricky. It all comes down to whether you use axe 5 or not. Without it, there is barely any down-time with Soulcleave. With it, the stall is real. You'll have to modify the rotation so that axe 5 is always under malyx.

But yes, Soulcleave is going to overpower Razorclaw in basically every regard:

1 Soulcleave has no icd, so it scales with enemy numbers. Razorclaw has a 1 second ICD, so the damage it does doesn't scale with multiple enemies.

2 Razorclaw currently doesn't scale with condition duration. It does 3.25 bleed ticks no matter what. SoulCleave hits for about 440, while Razorclaw hits for around 650. Thing is, with mace 2 and the mace auto hitting multiple times per second, so that lower damage quickly outpaces whatever the bleeds will inflict. A bugfix might change this. With full condi duration hitting for 1300 makes it reasonable competition for Soulcleave. Hitting twice per second is easy, but hitting 4 times or more per second is pretty hard.

3 The sustain is real. 380 per hit is very large, and with the average player hitting 2 to 3 times per second, you're getting nearly 1k health per second. If you're cleaving multiple enemies, it is 3k health per second.

The only time you'll be using Razorclaw is at the start of the fight, before switching to malyx. Otherwise, Soulcleave wins out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kalla skills are complete trash. Even on condi build they lower the DPS compared to (any legend)+F3 and swap to Mallyx, meaning you'll always use another legend instead of Kalla even on condi builds.Even if the summons are nice on paper, you need to factor the energy cost, the cast time and the fact that people can kill/cc them and you can't move away from them (as well as the enemy). Even on condi builds I'll always prefer Shiro or Jalis with Mallyx. They offer more utility and no dps drop thanks to F3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...