Awakeneds

A) In your opinion, what is the general stance of the gods toward awakening ?B ) Can Palawa Joko awaken a dragon ?C) Is the ability of awakeneds to think and store new memories linked to the good state of preservation of their brain ? Do they sens more than they see with blank eyes ?D) Do you have an elegant way of explaining why they are sensitive to poison ? (ex: I like to think of poisoned engineers turets as poluted fluids obstructing vital filters through joints and containers compromised integrity)

@Yseron.8613 said:D) Do you have an elegant way of explaining why they are sensitive to poison ? (ex: I like to think of poisoned engineers turets as poluted fluids obstructing vital filters through joints and containers compromised integrity)

i dont got this, mecanically in-game, theyre more vulnerable to poison?

A ) If you mean the Six Gods, they left and Grenth allowed undead in general. I don't think they care, and I doubt the other gods such as Zintl and Koda care either.B ) If you mean an Elder Dragon, very very unlikely. If you mean a dragon minion, similarly very very unlikely. If you mean a typical dragon like the Saltspray Dragons of Cantha, or say, a wyvern - I don't see why not. Though he has shown a lack of any form of Awakened animals so maybe the subject must be a sapient being.C ) It seems more tied to the caster's desire. Though there's lines about burning or decapitating a body to prevent Awakening, we never see anything about the "state of the brain" and its effects beyond "can no longer be Awakened".D ) Mechanics not lore. Same reason why a floating chunk of ice bleeds.

A) the only gods that really have a problem with it would be Grenth or Dhuum. They likely don't like it, but are unable to act or don't for some reason.B)No. Joko Seems to have a max size on his reanimate ability, whether this is because of some part of the spell or a lack of magic power is unknown.c)Evidence suggest that its biased on the state of the brain at reanimation. Most of Zhaitan's unbound minions are able to have some sort of semblance of intelligence, but are not cognitive and still hostile.
D)They simply are mimicking when they where alive and poison did affect them.(joke) It's for the game mechanics. Anet tried doing the reverse but it really made it a headache for certain builds so most immunity effects where removed in later iterations of content.

@"zerorogue.9410" said:c)Evidence suggest that its biased on the state of the brain at reanimation. Most of Zhaitan's unbound minions are able to have some sort of semblance of intelligence, but are not cognitive and still hostile.

TBH, risen aren't really like other undead we see, given that the rotten appearance occurs immediately upon corruption, whether the victim is living or dead. It's also unlikely that Mazdak's body was still in decent condition after 1,300+ years of being dead, so I doubt the state of the body has much influence. Especially since there are at least some headless risen.

We also know how intelligence works among dragon minions (sylvari potentially excluded), and it appears to be the same be it risen, branded, icebrood, or mordrem. In that "more magic = more smarts and power" and has nothing to do with the state of the body upon corruption, or the subject of the corruption.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:TBH, risen aren't really like other undead we see, given that the rotten appearance occurs immediately upon corruption, whether the victim is living or dead. It's also unlikely that Mazdak's body was still in decent condition after 1,300+ years of being dead, so I doubt the state of the body has much influence. Especially since there are at least some headless risen.

We also know how intelligence works among dragon minions (sylvari potentially excluded), and it appears to be the same be it risen, branded, icebrood, or mordrem. In that "more magic = more smarts and power" and has nothing to do with the state of the body upon corruption, or the subject of the corruption.Instant undeadification is a limitation of the game since texturing and modeling multiple stages of zombification is not as efficient as just swamping between alive>zombie textures. Also, Mazdak body was likely better kept than others since it was entombed and depending on how it could have lasted thousands of years.

As for other dragon minions they are a different case for intelligence and does not pertain to zombification.

@"zerorogue.9410" said:Instant undeadification is a limitation of the game since texturing and modeling multiple stages of zombification is not as efficient as just swamping between alive>zombie textures. Also, Mazdak body was likely better kept than others since it was entombed and depending on how it could have lasted thousands of years.

As for other dragon minions they are a different case for intelligence and does not pertain to zombification.

You would have a point... if not for the fact that "instant undeadification" is also present in the novels. Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows both make it a plot point that those killed become gray-skinned, rotten, shambling risen before they even hit the ground. No texture limitations there.

Besides, they actually do make such a texture for Kellach. He has a weird purple-veiny look to him before he is turned into a full fledged gray-skin and rotten model.

And the other dragon minions aren't all that different from risen at all. While risen may say simple phrases more often they do not have much (if any) more intelligence than other dragon minions, and both corruption into risen and corruption into branded, icebrood, or mordrem appears along similar circumstances. Not like actual undead-making necromancy.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:You would have a point... if not for the fact that "instant undeadification" is also present in the novels. Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows both make it a plot point that those killed become gray-skinned, rotten, shambling risen before they even hit the ground. No texture limitations there.I have a feeling this was an embellishment. Even though, this does not convey any state of the brain. Bringing this back to point, we can't really argue about any recently turned minion of zhaitan as none have been seen post Zhaitan death. We have seen Orr resurrected minions that have a small spark of intelligence that hints to some recovery of memories after control is lifted. We have also seen them while under Zhaitan control doing actions they did while they where alive, however I will not submit this as evidence as it may be a ruse by zhaitan or tasks dictated by the dragon or its champions.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Besides, they actually do make such a texture for Kellach. He has a weird purple-veiny look to him before he is turned into a full fledged gray-skin and rotten model.Kellach would be an exception to this, he was not corrupted directly by zhaitan or a champion, but by an artifact. This also is a main storyline quest so there going to put some extra work into it.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And the other dragon minions aren't all that different from risen at all. While risen may say simple phrases more often they do not have much (if any) more intelligence than other dragon minions, and both corruption into risen and corruption into branded, icebrood, or mordrem appears along similar circumstances. Not like actual undead-making necromancy.They are however using different magics to corrupt, additionally not all corruptions kill the host, thus other dragon minions are not relevant.

@"Yseron.8613" said:A) In your opinion, what is the general stance of the gods toward awakening ?B ) Can Palawa Joko awaken a dragon ?C) Is the ability of awakeneds to think and store new memories linked to the good state of preservation of their brain ? Do they sens more than they see with blank eyes ?D) Do you have an elegant way of explaining why they are sensitive to poison ? (ex: I like to think of poisoned engineers turets as poluted fluids obstructing vital filters through joints and containers compromised integrity)

A ) Before the Exodus, the 5 Gods probably have never encountered awaken/lich? I have a feel that Vizier Khilbron became a lich due to Scepter of Orr, and Palawa Joko became an awaken due to Scepter of Mist (it was hidden within the Desolation til discovered and destroyed; could Joko be one of the two kings the Gods had stricken down? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scepter_of_Orr)

B ) Probably depends if you are asking Tyrian + Elonaian Dragons, or Canthan Dragons; Tyrian and Elonian dragons are just creation of magic by the Elder Dragons, who themselves are made up of magic, as the concentration of wild magic can manifest in different forms, and Tyria + Elona, the highest concentration happens to be Dragon forms, by human's definition; On the other hand, Canthan Saltspray Dragons seems to be native to the world as flesh beings.So the relation between Joko and his awakens is probably similar to Elder Dragon to their minions, created by giving part of his magic away; in GW: Nightfall, the awakens were running wild doing whatever they like while Joko was still locked up (cut off from the original owner of the magic), similar to Sylvaris can continue to live on even as Mordremoth is dead, what was given out does not go away when the owner is cut-off from the current holder of the magic.

C ) Oh yeah, they can think, as demonstrated by Awakened Koss, also Joko's generals running in their own factions while Joko was locked up, both times. And they can see, as shown in PoF when Kasmeer mask the team into awaken forces, unless mesmer is not only capable of replicating the appearance, but also the unique magical signature of each person.

D ) They are? probably just game mechanics, just like you burns can affect fire elementals. In lore they should be resistant to poison, as they can freely travel through sulfuric waste.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:You would have a point... if not for the fact that "instant undeadification" is also present in the novels. Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows both make it a plot point that those killed become gray-skinned, rotten, shambling risen before they even hit the ground. No texture limitations there.I have a feeling this was an embellishment. Even though, this does not convey any state of the brain. Bringing this back to point, we can't really argue about any recently turned minion of zhaitan as none have been seen post Zhaitan death. We have seen Orr resurrected minions that have a small spark of intelligence that hints to some recovery of memories after control is lifted. We have also seen them while under Zhaitan control doing actions they did while they where alive, however I will not submit this as evidence as it may be a ruse by zhaitan or tasks dictated by the dragon or its champions.

"It counteracts my argument, so I'll dismiss it" is basically your first sentence.

It may not convey a state of the brain, but it shows that "zombification" as you called it, or corruption as everyone does, occurs immediately and the body becomes a rotten husk regardless of the state of the body upon corruption.

There's nothing out there that suggests the state of the brain is important for becoming a risen. Especially since, as I pointed out, we have headless risen.

As for risen performing the same duties as before corruption - this goes to more than just the mindless grunts in Orr, but also the champions themselves were all figures in positions of leadership, and they retain the same tasks. Naval captains command dead ships, generals lead troops, high priests command the temples, etc. There's a lot of evidence that this was intentionally done.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Besides, they actually do make such a texture for Kellach. He has a weird purple-veiny look to him before he is turned into a full fledged gray-skin and rotten model.Kellach would be an exception to this, he was not corrupted directly by zhaitan or a champion, but by an artifact. This also is a main storyline quest so there going to put some extra work into it.

Rissa, Klaes, Mr. Cluckers, and many many many many more NPCs were also killed by artifacts spreading corruption. There's entire hearts in Bloodtide and Sparkfly about Orrian artifacts washing ashore and spreading corruption into the wildlife (both animals and plants).

Kellach is only an exception in turn of models.

And for the record, those wildlife get a green gassy effect.

@zerorogue.9410 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And the other dragon minions aren't all that different from risen at all. While risen may say simple phrases more often they do not have much (if any) more intelligence than other dragon minions, and both corruption into risen and corruption into branded, icebrood, or mordrem appears along similar circumstances. Not like actual undead-making necromancy.They are however using different magics to corrupt, additionally not all corruptions kill the host, thus other dragon minions are not relevant.

Depends on how you define "kill the host", however as proven by Rissa, Klaes, Mr. Cluckers, Sickened Basilisks, and Kellach, to name those I have named, Zhaitan's corruption doesn't necessarily 'kill the host' before turning them into rotten fleshbags. And if one uses clinical death, which typically means no heart or brain activity for half a minute, which would be longer than it takes for the fallen to turn into risen when a champion is present. And depending on one's viewpoint in ultimately-semantic philosophy, turning one's flesh and blood into ice or crystal can certainly count as killing the host; same with the removal of free will.

Besides that, when Primordus, Jormag, and Mordremoth corrupt a living being (rare in the first and last but occurs), the process is a slow change from flesh to element. Devs described Primordus' corruption of living beings as encasing them in rock and liquifying the bdoy into lava (this was presented when they were asked if the Grawl Shaman from Volcanic Fractal is corrupted by Primordus, and while they never confirmed or denied the actual question, their description matches what we see occur in that fractal); icebrood are described in Edge of Destiny and blog posts as slowly being encased in ice as the flesh, blood, and hair is turned into ice itself leaving naught but bone and ice (as we can see in figures like the Icebrood Colossus). Mordremoth's corruption of living beings was described by Scott McGough as a plant that slowly replaces the flesh and the Mordrem Troll was used as an example (we also see this in Mordrem Wolves).

The only corruption of living beings that is instant, so far, is Kralkatorrik's.

And I don't think "using different magics" is necessarily accurate nor important. They're all using what Inquest, Snaff, and Scarlet called "draconic energies"; though Taimi would later claim all magic was dragon magic (despite some inconsistencies in such a claim). While they have different domains and different methods and preferences for corruption, they all seem to be capable of corrupting the same things equally.

@"crepuscular.9047" said:B ) Probably depends if you are asking Tyrian + Elonaian Dragons, or Canthan Dragons; Tyrian and Elonian dragons are just creation of magic by the Elder Dragons, who themselves are made up of magic, as the concentration of wild magic can manifest in different forms, and Tyria + Elona, the highest concentration happens to be Dragon forms, by human's definition; On the other hand, Canthan Saltspray Dragons seems to be native to the world as flesh beings.

Nothing says Elder Dragons are made up of magic, they're just capable of absorbing magic. While magic may manifest in different forms, these are all rather transparent and elemental in nature (we never see magic creating a solid looking entity yet at least). And there's suggestions of a race of dragons unrelated to Elder Dragons in Tyria though they appear to be extinct. Some NPCs also call wyverns as dragons, it should be noted.

A ) They couldn't care less. They were fine with undead when they WERE around, and now they're not.B ) I suspect so; he's an ancient and powerful lich, and in GW1 the Vizier was able to animate many dragons as bone dragons. I would think Elder Dragons are beyond his capabilities though, as with their inherent magic they're more like gods than dragons, functionally. I think the unwritten rule in necromancy is that whatever you're trying to raise has to be within your power to control, else you're essentially putting a very big dog on a very small lead. Unless Joko can kill an Elder Dragon solo, he can't raise one.C ) I don't think it's anything to do with the brain. In fact, if mummification is in any way consistent with real-world mummification they'll have removed the brain through the nose and put it in a canopic jar. Awakened are more sentient and able to create new memories by magic, because Joko allows it.D ) As has been said, this is just a limitation of gameplay mechanics. In GW1 a lot more monsters were immune to particular conditions than in GW2, where only a few have immunity. Interestingly, Joko's undead have always been fleshy and so vulnerable to bleed and poison. I suppose even a magically-reanimated human body is still, at its core, a human body with all the vulnerabilities that entails. An alternative take is that poison isn't universal, and our characters are sensibly adjusting the poison we apply to the creature we're facing. For instance, anti-freeze would act as poison to an Ice Elemental. Given that the Awakened are partially held together with tar, some sort of corrosive substance could break that down and work like a poison.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Above PostOk, that is too much. Half of what you said doesn't seem to even pertain to what is being said. Other parts contradict your previous statements. Keep in mind when you super-analyze a fictional universe your going to get nothing straight. It would probably take at least double that text to straighten all this out. Furthermore were talking awakened here, I just used Zhaitan as an example. We don't need to go into the entire history of dragons and zhaitan's minions about a question about awaken brains.

@Manpag.6421 said:D ) As has been said, this is just a limitation of gameplay mechanics. In GW1 a lot more monsters were immune to particular conditions than in GW2, where only a few have immunity. Interestingly, Joko's undead have always been fleshy and so vulnerable to bleed and poison. I suppose even a magically-reanimated human body is still, at its core, a human body with all the vulnerabilities that entails. An alternative take is that poison isn't universal, and our characters are sensibly adjusting the poison we apply to the creature we're facing. For instance, anti-freeze would act as poison to an Ice Elemental. Given that the Awakened are partially held together with tar, some sort of corrosive substance could break that down and work like a poison.

This is pretty much what I was going to say. I'm reminded somewhat of the Warhammer approach, where it's stated that units and characters that use poison, when confronted with undead, demons, or other creatures that would be immune to conventional poisons, switch to using something that acts as a poison against the target: things like using antiseptic against plague demons and holy water against undead.

Guild Wars has never explicitly stated anything along those lines, but it would make sense that even if Awakened are immune to most poisons, there is something out there that can get into their tarstream and weaken them in a similar manner to a poison.

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Yseron.8613 said:

D) Do you have an elegant way of explaining why they are sensitive to poison ? (ex: I like to think of poisoned engineers turets as poluted fluids obstructing vital filters through joints and containers compromised integrity)

I sadly can't give a good explanation for why they are, but we know that at least some poison does indeed work against them lorewise, as seen in The hero of Istan. Sayida's claims hold truth:

Sayida the Sly: The ale Mehdi brews up is legendary. It can knock out even the biggest corsair.Sayida the Sly: Surprisingly, it smells and tastes just like any ol' strong ale, but it packs a serious punch.Sayida the Sly: Not even an undead stomach can keep it down for long.