The Rotation of Power

If the forums flood with "problem" class complaint threads, hen after a (long) while we might see that class get nerfs. Sometimes they are over-nerfed into Potato status. Afterwards, a new problem class arises because whatever was holding it back has been neutered. The cycles goes around, sometimes skipping over Potatoes, until an expansion. Each season normally has ~about 3 best metas, with the rest trying to sustain viability.

Some classes receive the auto "gg" if you got more than one by default. Some classes get the auto "gg" if you even have one. Certainly not everyone says "gg", but many more think in their head "oh gosh...we got a potato", or "we got two ever-downs".

I have seen players say if it were balanced, it would be boring. Okay.

But reasonable balance might include things like (please note, that these things may or may not be in the game currently):

• no class should completely shut down an entire play style (melee)
• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalized
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing
• more classes should have vigor options
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvp
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

Disagree or Agree, Add to or take away. Let us converse.

Ideally,

Every profession could build for bunker, support and damage roles. Generally bunkers should have less mobility, meaning the heavy damage absorb abilities should come at the expense of choosing mobility. Support should be somewhat mobile but the higher DPS choices should reward better mobility at the expense of survivability.

Bunkers: take a lot of damage but aren’t invulnerable. It should take two dps builds or three players with at least one dps build to quickly kill a well played bunker.

Support: less damage and survival than dps and bunker. Focused on filling either role in a pinch but less effectively. Provides team with heals/boons/crowd control and clutch skills for resurrection.

DPS: most damage and least survival. Balance should reflect that (1) oneshot builds should be highly vulnerable after a burst, (2) oneshot builds should be uncommon, (3) oneshot builds should only oneshot other dps builds.

Given damage is so variable between different professions the best first step might be to look at normalizing HP bars. Pretty hard to balance otherwise.

• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)There are 9 classes with 18 elite specs: a total of 63 traitlines and the ability to pick from a pool of 567 traits (obviously limited to the tier and traitline picked). Being able to counter or beat someone is never guaranteed. One class may be built to specifically counter another popular build in which case they will beat that build consistently (but not 100% of the time). Also - cannot accurately quantify skill level, and this point is already in game.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?Invun mechanics are less common than people make them out to be and with the recent patch, their CDs have been extended.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much...in your opinion. I think it's fine.
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis suggests moving to a point of equalization with less diversity and fewer differences/options. Strongly not in favor.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal...again, in your opinion. Disagree.
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing...again, in your opinion. Disagree.
• more classes should have vigor optionsI believe all classes have vigor options with the exception of Necro perhaps?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpLike...?
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

So overall, you would look to have every profession being able to do everything, have the same health pool, the same damage output, access to all boons, very similar skills, not counter anything, not have stealth, not have invulnerability, not have any passive procs.That's a lot of things to remove from the game which you don't like. However, if that was actually implemented, there would be very little to define and separate professions, they would all end up too similar with far less diversity.Based on that, strongly opposed to most of your suggestions.

You're essentially asking for grey, dull porridge when you could have an exciting, exotic 4 course meal full of amazing flavours.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:If the forums flood with "problem" class complaint threads, hen after a (long) while we might see that class get nerfs. Sometimes they are over-nerfed into Potato status. Afterwards, a new problem class arises because whatever was holding it back has been neutered. The cycles goes around, sometimes skipping over Potatoes, until an expansion. Each season normally has ~about 3 best metas, with the rest trying to sustain viability.

Some classes receive the auto "gg" if you got more than one by default. Some classes get the auto "gg" if you even have one. Certainly not everyone says "gg", but many more think in their head "oh gosh...we got a potato", or "we got two ever-downs".

I have seen players say if it were balanced, it would be boring. Okay.

But reasonable balance might include things like (please note, that these things may or may not be in the game currently):

• no class should completely shut down an entire play style (melee) Agree
• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level) Agree
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then? Agree
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much Disagree- criting a lot by itself is not that powerful
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalized Disagree - toughness is also a factor
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal Agree - stealth in general is bad no need for more
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing Disagree - as long as they are active they are skilled based.
• more classes should have vigor options Agree
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvp Agree
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions) Agree

Disagree or Agree, Add to or take away. Let us converse.

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)There are 9 classes with 18 elite specs: a total of 63 traitlines and the ability to pick from a pool of 567 traits (obviously limited to the tier and traitline picked). Being able to counter or beat someone is
  never
  guaranteed. One class may be built to specifically counter another popular build in which case they
  will
  beat that build consistently (but not 100% of the time). Also - cannot accurately quantify skill level, and this point is already in game.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?Invun mechanics are less common than people make them out to be and with the recent patch, their CDs have been extended.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much...in
  your
  opinion. I think it's fine.
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis suggests moving to a point of equalization with less diversity and fewer differences/options. Strongly not in favor.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• more classes should have vigor optionsI believe all classes have vigor options with the exception of Necro perhaps?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpLike...?
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

great post ! Less great answers and a lot of anger there !

Saying you disagree won't get us anywhere . I most agree with the WP feel . Try to not be biaised by your class being strong/OP/ bad/barely viable when you argue plz !

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:But reasonable balance might include things like (please note, that these things may or may not be in the game currently):

• no class should completely shut down an entire play style (melee)I concur wholeheartly, I'd love to see thief reworked to not be a total shutout hardcounter to multiple build types.
• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)This is totally impractical unless you wish to massively homogenize every class.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?I would argue that a dedicated +1 class is more unhealthy for the game than a auto-proc is. A entire class dedicated to making every fight as unbalanced as possible is asinine and leads to massive amounts of frustration.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too muchHow so?
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis is only valid if every class has roughly equivalent defensive and disengage capabilities.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have revealWhy is reveal a bad thing?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpDefine "PvE styled"
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)A worthy enough goal.

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)There are 9 classes with 18 elite specs: a total of 63 traitlines and the ability to pick from a pool of 567 traits (obviously limited to the tier and traitline picked). Being able to counter or beat someone is
  never
  guaranteed. One class may be built to specifically counter another popular build in which case they
  will
  beat that build consistently (but not 100% of the time). Also - cannot accurately quantify skill level, and this point is already in game.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?Invun mechanics are less common than people make them out to be and with the recent patch, their CDs have been extended.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much...in
  your
  opinion. I think it's fine.
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis suggests moving to a point of equalization with less diversity and fewer differences/options. Strongly not in favor.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• more classes should have vigor optionsI believe all classes have vigor options with the exception of Necro perhaps?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpLike...?
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

What I believe you're failing to realize is that the original post mostly consists of opinions, which means stating I disagree in completely in line. I cannot always suggest a solution to something I don't view as an issue.I'm as unbiased as I can be - I play 7 of the 9 professions in PvP so have multiple points of view.I've made my argument that OPs ideas promoted lack of diversity, your post was just another mundane "I agree". How about trying to address specific points or using facts in your future contributions?

Crinn there pretty much summed up my thoughts as well.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:But reasonable balance might include things like (

please note, that these things may or may not be in the game currently

):

• no class should completely shut down an entire play style (melee)
  1. I concur wholeheartly, I'd love to see thief reworked to not be a total shutout hardcounter to multiple build types.
• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)
  2. This is totally impractical unless you wish to massively homogenize every class.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?
  3. I would argue that a dedicated +1 class is more unhealthy for the game than a auto-proc is. A entire class dedicated to making every fight as unbalanced as possible is asinine and leads to massive amounts of frustration.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much
  4. How so?
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalized
  5. This is only valid if every class has roughly equivalent defensive and disengage capabilities.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal
  6. Why is reveal a bad thing?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvp
  7. Define "PvE styled"
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)
  8. A worthy enough goal.

1. I wouldn't mind a thief rework. But, scourge shuts down all melee. It could be said "if they are good, otherwise....", the same could be said for thief.

2. The developers are homogenizing the game themselves. Scholar profession with melee specializations, warriors with thief-ish mobility and daggers, (from the beginning) a support heavy class with shadow steps....ect. Still having 1 class that can beat all other classes no matter what does not make the game "more fun". It will however, flood the forums with complaints out the wazoo about said class.

3. I can see how it would be frustrating, but outnumbering the enemy is a wise choice if it can be done quickly. I wouldn't think it right for a quick hard hitting class to be able to hang around and team fight to be healthy. The issue is not so much long cool-downs, it is when some of the invulns proc. Otherwise, the whole plus-1 concept of thing could use a rework.

4. Massive health + massive damage = massively unfair, and unhealthy. I feel like there should be a sacrifice, high health less chance to crit, lower health more chance.

5. Well, Warrior has 19k health, with excellent mobility, and defense; they also hit like a truck. Rangers, they have to be pretty mobile, defensive, and capable of disengage/reengage at will to be able to 1 v 2/3. Memser has almost the best mobility, and the best disengage. Engi can stack two invulns, I see alot with stealth, rocket boots or jumpshot, with good access to vigor; they are very pesky. this bold group has 15.9k health. The thing is they have comparable or better damage then the 11k health-ers.

6. Reveal is not a bad thing, but some of the cooldowns that allow revealed are a bit too short, considering stealth is one of thief's main survival tools. The stealth for everyone is the bad thing. Though, I bet you wouldn't mind if sand swell granted stealth with the portal?

7. Some classes have massive AOE, and they can push people off a point. As long as they are there, so it is constant, in a game mode that requires possession of nodes. Some classes have big damage AOE, but its on a long enough cool down that possession of a node is not constant. Some classes have massively confusing visual clutter and ridiculously painless recharge.

8. well, this was more of a restate, tl;dr for the bullet list.

Each profession has 7 specializations. 5 regular and 2 elite. It seems to be that at least 1 is a must-take, so in most cases players can choose their other two. Again generally players may wish to choose an elite, and fom some classes, it's not even a choice.

If a player chooses all regular specializations, not everyone is given the same viability and success.

Why not spread the good stuff out of that must-take trait-line and make them all viable. Players can find the traits with the most synergy for the role they wish to play.

The buffs and changes that we get pre or mid season, seems to funnel most in to a single meta.

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)There are 9 classes with 18 elite specs: a total of 63 traitlines and the ability to pick from a pool of 567 traits (obviously limited to the tier and traitline picked). Being able to counter or beat someone is
  never
  guaranteed. One class may be built to specifically counter another popular build in which case they
  will
  beat that build consistently (but not 100% of the time). Also - cannot accurately quantify skill level, and this point is already in game.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?Invun mechanics are less common than people make them out to be and with the recent patch, their CDs have been extended.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much...in
  your
  opinion. I think it's fine.
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis suggests moving to a point of equalization with less diversity and fewer differences/options. Strongly not in favor.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• more classes should have vigor optionsI believe all classes have vigor options with the exception of Necro perhaps?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpLike...?
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

"My opinion" was implied byt the passive tone. The use of words like "guess", "might", and "disclaimer".

But I disagree with you. The recommendations actually promote diversity.

You think a free amulet amounts worth of crit in a trait line is fine, but I don't 40% is tooooooooo much. IMO

Letting everyone hit just as hard as one another without equal health pool is like saying choose and easy mode class or hard mode class. Your single target damage as a 19k class should not be equal to a 11k class. IMO

Since you just disagreed....I'll just disagree with you right back. Really got us no where. IMO

Since you just disagreed....I'll just disagree with you right back. Really got us no where. IMO

I did say "more" vigor options. IMO

Like the size of shades, and the amount of clones, phantasms and visual clutter the owners of those two things bring. IMO

Wanting every class to be viable in a meta, nor is my list of suggestions equal to:

• So overall, you would look to have every profession being able to do everything, have the same health pool, the same damage output, access to all boons, very similar skills, not counter anything, not have stealth, not have invulnerability, not have any passive procs.

It promotes variety and sacrifices. The current meta is carried by class. All 9 classes should be represented a bit more in line with the frequecny they are played across all game modes. No profession or specialization should be "trash tier"

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

@MarshallLaw.9260 said:

• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)There are 9 classes with 18 elite specs: a total of 63 traitlines and the ability to pick from a pool of 567 traits (obviously limited to the tier and traitline picked). Being able to counter or beat someone is
  never
  guaranteed. One class may be built to specifically counter another popular build in which case they
  will
  beat that build consistently (but not 100% of the time). Also - cannot accurately quantify skill level, and this point is already in game.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?Invun mechanics are less common than people make them out to be and with the recent patch, their CDs have been extended.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much...in
  your
  opinion. I think it's fine.
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalizedThis suggests moving to a point of equalization with less diversity and fewer differences/options. Strongly not in favor.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• stun break on evade should never have been a thing...again, in
  your
  opinion. Disagree.
• more classes should have vigor optionsI believe all classes have vigor options with the exception of Necro perhaps?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvpLike...?
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)

• So overall, you would look to have every profession being able to do everything, have the same health pool, the same damage output, access to all boons, very similar skills, not counter anything, not have stealth, not have invulnerability, not have any passive procs

well, my 75% free crit guardian has some words...

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:But reasonable balance might include things like (

please note, that these things may or may not be in the game currently

):

• no class should completely shut down an entire play style (melee)
  1. I concur wholeheartly, I'd love to see thief reworked to not be a total shutout hardcounter to multiple build types.
• no class should be able to beat any other class in a 1 v 1 no matter what (if play by players of the same skill level)
  2. This is totally impractical unless you wish to massively homogenize every class.
• life saving invulnerability should not auto-proc at 25% health, why have a +1 class or a rogue in the game then?
  3. I would argue that a dedicated +1 class is more unhealthy for the game than a auto-proc is. A entire class dedicated to making every fight as unbalanced as possible is asinine and leads to massive amounts of frustration.
• 40% free crit in a trait line is too much
  4. How so?
• if the hitting power is being equalized, the health pools be changed/equalized
  5. This is only valid if every class has roughly equivalent defensive and disengage capabilities.
• too many classes having stealth is a bad thing, it just makes more classes have reveal
  6. Why is reveal a bad thing?
• pve styled skills should be banned or changed for pvp
  7. Define "PvE styled"
• all 9 classes should be viable in any meta, if they are not, appropriate changes must be made (this is across all divisions)
  8. A worthy enough goal.

1. I wouldn't mind a thief rework. But, scourge shuts down all melee. It could be said "if they are good, otherwise....", the same could be said for thief.And the significant increase to DS's cooldown has alleviated that to a decent degree. Scourge is certainly still strong and in the meta, but it's hardly the shutout that it used to be.

Meanwhile p/p thief literally instakills a scourge with zero chance for the scourge to do crap. Even outside of p/p, getting engaged by a thief is still a death sentence for every necro, unless the necro team's invests significantly cooldowns into saving the necro.

Oh and that's not even getting into all the other stuff outside of necro that thief dumps all over.

2. The developers are homogenizing the game themselves. Scholar profession with melee specializations, warriors with thief-ish mobility and daggers, (from the beginning) a support heavy class with shadow steps....ect. Still having 1 class that can beat all other classes no matter what does not make the game "more fun". It will however, flood the forums with complaints out the wazoo about said class.This game is not even remotely homogenized. When I say "homogenized" I'm referring to games like SWTOR or WoW where interrupts, CC, and stunbreaks are standardized across all classes to the point where classes are interchangeable.

3. I can see how it would be frustrating, but outnumbering the enemy is a wise choice if it can be done quickly. I wouldn't think it right for a quick hard hitting class to be able to hang around and team fight to be healthy. The issue is not so much long cool-downs, it is when some of the invulns proc. Otherwise, the whole plus-1 concept of thing could use a rework.I no problem with using rotations to outnumber fights, I have a problem with having a class that is purpose built to dominate the entire map. I have a problem with the fact that having that class come in on you is almost always a death sentence, and I have a even bigger problem with that class being loaded with so many disengages that it never even has to commit itself.

4. Massive health + massive damage = massively unfair, and unhealthy. I feel like there should be a sacrifice, high health less chance to crit, lower health more chance.Which is a far broader discussion than simply complaining about a traitline giving crit bonuses.

5. Well, Warrior has 19k health, with excellent mobility, and defense; they also hit like a truck. Rangers, they have to be pretty mobile, defensive, and capable of disengage/reengage at will to be able to 1 v 2/3. Memser has almost the best mobility, and the best disengage. Engi can stack two invulns, I see alot with stealth, rocket boots or jumpshot, with good access to vigor; they are very pesky. this bold group has 15.9k health. The thing is they have comparable or better damage then the 11k health-ers.Thief has been top of the meta for the past year. Guardian has been top of the meta since PoF. Ele is the only 11k HP class with any viability issues post PoF, but was meta for 2.5 years straight pre-pof. The 11k HP are the three classes that have been part of the meta more than any of the other classes.

6. Reveal is not a bad thing, but some of the cooldowns that allow revealed are a bit too short, considering stealth is one of thief's main survival tools. The stealth for everyone is the bad thing. Though, I bet you wouldn't mind if sand swell granted stealth with the portal?Ah so the gloves come off. This thread isn't a "things that are bad for the game" this is a "things that are bad for thieves" thread.

And to answer your question, no I would not advocate Sand Swell granting stealth. If I did anything with sand swell it would be to reduce the cast time to 0.5 seconds down from 1 second. Stealth makes no sense for the necro kit as necro hardly has the mobility to go anywhere.

7. Some classes have massive AOE, and they can push people off a point. As long as they are there, so it is constant, in a game mode that requires possession of nodes. Some classes have big damage AOE, but its on a long enough cool down that possession of a node is not constant. Some classes have massively confusing visual clutter and ridiculously painless recharge.Simply having AoE does not necessarily make it broken. Staff ele has insane AoE damage but you don't see them on the leaderboard. Scourge is a interesting balance problem, and while it's implementation is questionable, simply saying it's a problem because it has AoE is silly and massively oversimplifies how pvp works.

Something for people to think about.

Precision converts to crit chance at 21 points for 1% crit chance.Therefore fury as a boon is equal to 420 stat points (20*21).Therefore roiling mists is likewise equal to 420 stat points into crit.There are traits which add upto 100% crit chance to certain skills or upto 50% on other conditions, 1050 stat pointsJust things to think about depending on which side of the “too much free crit” argument you sit on.

Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Precision