Forum Ethics Question

Since Gaile believes she already answered it, I'll just ask as a General Discussion question.

I asked what actual effect or impact the thumbs down feature has and presented Gaile's comment that an effect was there. Then I presented another of her posts expressing two positions, one favorable and one less favorable, a binary set of options where the favorable position is wholly duplicated by the thumbs down feature. The logic I'm leading through is the thumbs down feature, whatever non-tangible impact it might have, might have been considered for removal based on premises that contradict the forum rules. Players report a post and it is then considered for moderation so think of the thumbs down feature as a post and people are reporting that post to the moderators to be removed. On what premise do these posters argue to have someone's "I disagree" post removed?

I am not sure what you are saying. You are talking a lot about things but not giving the details of what you are talking about.You want to know the impact of a thumbs down feature? Like socially and why it's not a thing?

What was Gaile's comment that you are referring to? What other post expressing opinions? What were those opinions?

What do you mean by "Think of the thumbs down feature as a post"? You are saying a thumbs down is the same as someone saying "I disagree" in an actual post?

Are you trying to say that not allowing people to thumbs down posts is the same as mass removing posts?

I am so confused.

edit: Nevermind... this thread will no doubt be gone soon enough.

But it would have been nice to have been able to downvote it anyway...

I asked what actual effect or impact the thumbs down feature has and presented Gaile's comment that an effect was there. Then I presented another of her posts expressing two positions, one favorable and one less favorable, a binary set of options where the favorable position is wholly duplicated by the thumbs down feature. The logic I'm leading through is the thumbs down feature, whatever non-tangible impact it might have, might have been considered for removal based on premises that contradict the forum rules. The Players report a post and it is then considered for moderation so think of the thumbs down feature as a post and people are reporting that post to the moderators to be removed. On what premise do these posters argue to have someone's "I disagree" post removed?

You’re arguing that thumbs down is the same as a post and therefore worth keeping?

As I understand it the counter argument is that it was both used too frivolously and was too vague in what it downvoted. That in a discussion forum, if it was worth disagreeing it was worth stating why you disagree. Thumbs up can be left in place as agreement can be stated as “yes, me too” and doesn’t need a separate post for that.

World Of Warcraft recently removed their downvote button. Since the forums are not identical the reasons aren’t one to one but there’s one part that relevant to both forums (highlighted)

Yes, we’ve recently pushed an update to the WoW forums that removes the ability to downvote posts made by other players.

We originally added this feature as a means for players to assist with forum moderation by upvoting helpful posts and downvoting inappropriate or toxic posts. In practice, however, we found that it was primarily being used for things like downvoting a post simply because they disagreed with it, which was not the intent, and too often led to different opinions getting unfairly buried. Moving to an upvotes-only environment will remove this unintended abuse, while still allowing players to give recognition to posts that have a positive impact on the World of Warcraft community.

The downvote button is to often used as an empty “don’t like” which stifles discussion. Instead of people saying why they don’t like something and discussing the reasons why they would hit the downvote button and not otherwise post. This is not good for a discussion forum.

As you can see, here you got a discussion of reasons. If there was a downvote button I would have hit that and said nothing more as I originally found your post confusing and that you’re bringing up a topic that has been discussed and effectively over with.

It's easier to click a thumb down button than it is to write a post. And usually if a person can be bothered to actually post, they would go farther than just writing "I disagree" and elaborate on why they do, contributing to the actual discussion. This doesn't happen with the "dislike" option, in fact it promotes exactly the opposite.

This "feature" has been removed on a great many forums over the years. The problem with it is that it often promotes a toxic area in that people will just down vote people they don't like for no other reason.It's also been noted (in other games) that entire guilds were down voting posts.Personally I don't feel it ever adds to a forum as the negatives of such an option outweigh the positives

Of you want people to downvote your post, just add a poll to it.

Forums adopting a downvote/thumbs down system in mass, only to later drop it, did so because of Reddit becoming popular, but never took into account that traditional forums and Reddit are not the same. It serves no purpose, and its main use is in an abusive manner. A better question would be asking why keep something that accomplished nothing and is abused?

On the same note, I don't really see the point of the "thumb up" option either, since it just discourages people from posting and comping up with alternative ideas and variations to something. We already have "helpful", which is the one to use for actually marking useful posts. So "Thumb up" just becomes a popularity vote system that discourages further discussion and ideas.

@"joneirikb.7506" said:On the same note, I don't really see the point of the "thumb up" option either, since it just discourages people from posting and comping up with alternative ideas and variations to something. We already have "helpful", which is the one to use for actually marking useful posts. So "Thumb up" just becomes a popularity vote system that discourages further discussion and ideas.

When I say something like "I like the new mount skin", it's easy to just "thumb up" when you like it too. There is no need for x posts saying "I like it, too".

When there would be a "thumb down" button, you would just tell the others, that you don't like it. That would't really help the devs. Without a "thumb down" you will more likely write a post and explain why you don't like it, e.g. "too flashy"...

@Auri.1365 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:On the same note, I don't really see the point of the "thumb up" option either, since it just discourages people from posting and comping up with alternative ideas and variations to something. We already have "helpful", which is the one to use for actually marking useful posts. So "Thumb up" just becomes a popularity vote system that discourages further discussion and ideas.

You just missed the point.

Thumbs in any direction are effectively the same. Neither promote discourse, yet one is allowed to stay over the other because of the notion that the only good reinforcement is positive reinforcement.

I can say with certainty there are times even on these forums that i miss thumbs down. There are cases where it really it just easier as Galie herself said to ignore it and move on when it comes to discourse and a thumbs down let you do just that. You didn't have to engage with bullhead people who weren't out for discourse but rather to shove their ideal gameplay scenario and fantasy down your throat for the Nth time.

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Auri.1365 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:On the same note, I don't really see the point of the "thumb up" option either, since it just discourages people from posting and comping up with alternative ideas and variations to something. We already have "helpful", which is the one to use for actually marking useful posts. So "Thumb up" just becomes a popularity vote system that discourages further discussion and ideas.

To a degree @Auri.1365 has a good point. When you agree with someone ("Thumbs up") there's usually nothing to be gained from further clarifying. When you disagree ("Thumbs down") there may be a whole range of reasons why you do so, and therefore it makes more sense to elaborate on the reasons, just to help others see exactly how you disagree.From a "fairness" or "equality" perspective I certainly agree that either both should be available or both should be removed.

It does open up ArenaNet and other posters to the same kind of "review bombing" you see on sites like metacritic: ArenaNet do something that people don't like and people nuke all ArenaNet posts in protest.

I don't see down voting adding much to the forums. I always thought it was a bit like trying to drown out people's voices by booing them.