Major Renegade PvP improvement ideas ( Revised 01/2019 ) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Major Renegade PvP improvement ideas ( Revised 01/2019 )

Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited January 20, 2019 in Revenant

Revised 01/19/2019

Considering all the negativity in the Revenant forums I decided to throw anet a bone of constructive feedback in regards to Renegade. I've been playing Renegade in sPvP for a while both for fun and to learn it's issues, and have played it with some level of success against top 250 players and playing it in platinum ranked with shiro/jalis power renegade. This is a revision to make the rework slightly less TL;DR and to condense the changes into a smaller number of options so that Renegade can be made less-clunky and for less work.

Main Goal: Renegade has some level of decency, the issue is it lacks a good number of built in utility to truly shine. This rework/buff aims to give Renegade more options for healing and utility in fights to make it harder for the enemy team to ignore. Note: This is primarily focused with PvP in mind. I've avoided any major buffs to DPS to prevent problems in raid compositions for PvE, but adjusting Renegade in PvE is not the goal here.


Problem 1: Spirits are far too easily outplayed by competent players, making the Kalla legend feel like a poor mans dragonhunter.
This can be fixed by any number of changes. Any combination of two of the following would place Kalla in a better spot for PvP:
1. Significantly reduce cast time and aftercast of all spirits
2. Increase the utility effect of spirits, such as giving one of them weakness application or making them all grant an AoE boon ( IE: make Darkrazor grant all allies 3s stability )
3. Spirits can no longer be CCed ( But can still be killed ).

Problem 2: Shortbow skill 2 and 3 are :# hot garbage :# , making bow inefficient due to effectively only having two skills + auto attack.
-This can be fixed by reworking one of the skills into an evade or block, and then buffing the other. There are many ways to do this, so the following is just an example:
1. Swap Sevenshot and BB path so Sevenshot is now skill #2. Buff Sevenshot so that the hitbox threshold is large enough so that it generally always inflicts 2 stacks of torment at least. Currently it does 1 stack at point blank, 2 at midranged, and 5 if aimed correctly. Buff would be 2 stacks point blank, 4 midrange, and 7 if aimed.
2. Rework Bloodbane path to an evade skill where the Rev teleports around the target shooting, and then returns to original position ( Think a cross between Sword 3 and Hammer 3 ). Increase cooldown to 12 seconds.

Problem 3: Renegade in general lacks sustain and utility compared to what exists on other classes in the game.
Any combination of three of the following ideas could improve this dramatically:
1. Give Renegade protection/stability or sustain on one of the Citadel order skills.
2. Give Renegade protection/stability or sustain on a major trait, such as making wrought iron will also grant protection.
4. Make one of the minor traits grant some form of sustain, such as converting 10% of critical damage dealt as health.
5. Give Renegade condi clear. This option has potential as a nice split from herald to be the spec to be chosen against condi.
6. Grant Renegade some flat defensive stats somewhere that can be easily taken. Such as making Kallas fervor also improve toughness, or adding vitality to a grandmaster.
7. Buff Citadel bombardment in PvP and WvW only. This skill is very hard to land due to the obvious animation and long windup, but is completely unrewarding for the larger investment. This skill should be something that demands a dodge, not just laughed off.
8. Give renegade some form of energy management. Currently Renegade relies too heavily on charged mists to get anywhere when compared to Herald.
9. Add actual flat lifesteal somewhere in the Renegade line. Lifesteal generally does not heavily impact PvE DPS but does for PvP.

Problem 4: Lack of Offhand block.
This one is simple but often missed. Sword 4 was recently nerfed in a way that feels really bad. A better way that also improves the defense of Rev as a whole and less dependant on support would just be adding block back to Sword 4 and nerfing the damage.
-Added duelists preparation back to the start of Sword 4, animation locked for 1/4 seconds before Shackling wave becomes available.
*Base damage of shackling wave reduced by 15%, but speed de-nerfed.
*Damage of shackling wave is increased by 10% if an attack is successfully blocked by duelists preparation.


Conclusion: I do not seriously think much in this thread will make it in game, or any of it really. but rather I am giving it to anet to provide a decent idea on how the spec can be at least less-bad. Renegades lack of decent defense makes using bow or kallas spirits a suicide wish in any sPvP setting. This is why the only way to play Renegade in sPvP is to ironically not use either of these and instead play it like a more offensive power herald shiro with jalis instead of glint. Renegade will very likely remain in a sorry state until something similar to the above is addressed.

Comments

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i like to see another fellow player care about renegade.
    first i think we should consider renegade theme. heavy armor first in line who ambush to do havoc on the fields while blindside the enemy from the sb hits from the mist.
    i agree with your first comment that renegade should focus on evades. but i think you make it too complicated.

    the first problem i think also can be tricky to fixed. why?
    i also though stability will fix the problem but it seems to be too hard to handle and i dont like it to be like scourge aoe. as this idea can make anet nerf again the spirits.

    so how to make the spirits do something when they are easily killed and cc?
    i would give them an aoe field proc with them so if they get killed or cc you still have the field . soulcleave - already have fire field

    breakrazor bastion - light field for 4 sec - so with sb or staff you can proc condition cleanse aoe or at the target area
    razorclaw rage - smoke field i wish :D but can be poison field - so with sb or staff you can proc poison and weakness
    icerazor - ice field - so with sb or staff you can proc chill and torment if traited and frost aura
    darkrazor - dark field - so with sb or staff you can proc life steal or blind

    if this goes i will add to citadel bombardment blast finisher with each hit. as it already cost too much and hardly use if you want to cleanse you will use it for fast aoe cleanse but will cost you 40 nrg at least and more to do more blast finisher proc.

    the above can be hard to implement so i would start with the below

    regarding the spirits i would make them to take 25% less dmg .
    regarding cc. make them unable to kb or kd. only stop attacking for 1 sec when cc.
    i agree that the cast time should be 0.5 sec

    regarding defense and endurance
    we have vigor which proc with fury - sword 5 gives fury, legend swap with invocation proc fury , healing skill proc fury, some rune proc fury or give back endurance, assassin RS proc fury and enemy below 50% proc fury.
    vigor bring 50% endurance back, retribution has 25% back also
    thus i only would change the trait endless enmity to proc fury below 75%.

    SB
    an easy fix is to delete sevenshot and give it an evade backward 600 range 0.75 sec, proc super speed for 2 sec if it hits.
    spiritcrush - in pvp very easy to move out or to foresee it as it take time to cast and than to proc. so make this skill faster
    bloodbane path - add cripple for 1 sec to it
    spiritcrush - make it so i can target it behind me or while moving - the sb should be firing from the mist and blindside the enemies....

    so you have cripple , evade and kd skills.

    thief sb skills are 0.5 sec cast time, ranger sb skills are 0.25 sec cast time but renegade are 0.75 cast time. they should reduced to 0.5 sec cast time

    it seems that the defense renegade brings to himself is by aoe around him but atm the aoe are easy dodgeable or the radius is small (spirit crush and citadel bombardment hardly hit much)

    trait
    kalla fervor should also reduce conditions duration on you by 2% each stack
    atm its very easy to get to 5 stacks without the help of the major adapt trait line. so you have 3 free trait line to rethink
    1. gaining the 5th stack of kalla fervor aoe cleanse 1 condition. icd of 10 sec
    2. gaining the 5th stack of kalla fervor proc retaliation and regen for 4 sec. icd 10 sec
    3. gaining kalla fervor your attacks does more 2% dmg for each stacks and cripple you foe for 3 sec. icd of 10 sec

    sudden reversal should be knock back 300 range as i want to create range with shortbow.
    heartpiercer dmg increase to 33% like ranger and thief traits.
    all for one i wish if it could cleanse 1 condition. but anet dont want revenant to cleanse i guess.
    lasting legacy in order to be rival to the other two traits should also be share with 5 allies around you. or the self benefit should be much higher like doable
    30 ferocity become 60 so max from 150 to 300 and 2% condition dmg to 4% condition dmg so max from 10% to 20% more dmg.

  • Bart.5296Bart.5296 Member ✭✭

    More than agree with you on missing mobility. I think we need reduce greatly shortbow cast time (accordingly somewhere between 1/3 sec to 1/2 sec.). Some skills needs complete rework - imo shortbow 2 should cause torment, and sevenshot should be removed and replaced by revenant's version of "disabling shot" (thief) or "quickshot" (ranger).

    Currently Kalla traits seems to be boring, focused in majority on passive-offensive mechanics. Instead, we should be able to pick between defensive/evasive traits and offensive ones. Traits also need to promote active gameplay and have more synergies. "Wrought Iron-Will" is a good example of this sort of trait; I just think is not rewarding enough and needs to synergize with another powerfull trait.

    As for utilities - additional mechanics as you mentiom above are such a great idea. But I also think it would be nice to have some additional effects for the moment spirit is summoned, e.g "darkrazor" should grant 2 sec of distortion/evade upon being summoned etc.

    I also like mechanics basing on Kalla favor consumption. I even started a thread about "orders from above" consuming stacks of Kalla favor and making revenant to dodge backword, similar to riposting shadows.

    Overall I really love Kalla theme and it just need some work, to become great specialization and ton of fun, which - currently - is not the case unfortunately.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 6, 2018

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    First suggestion: Overhaul the core class first.

    Renegade is build on a wiggling ground.

    ^ But core revenant isn't even that bad tho.

    Rev in general isn't as bad as people think. It's just harder to play and doesn't hold your hand. Herald is already capable of taking the slot of holosmith in certain team comps.

    Only things I would personally want are 1) Cleansing channel buffed to 2 condi and 2) First part of sword 4 a block again, with second part the same skill as it is now.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2018

    I think most of the traits are perfectly fine for renegade The traits for fury and what not actually go well with traits in some of the other core lines for rev. My issue is with the effectiveness of its slow shortbow skills (they made it look too pretty so it wont hit anything because of how much of a delay it has.) As well as how useful the many of the spirits are or can be. THEY ARE TOO ENERGY HUNGRY. for 1 which is one of the biggest turn offs to why people dont like them.
    For all that energy cost their range is not too great (considering most of them can only attack 1 target and can be killed / stunned killing their use. They dont scale well with stats either
    Each of them should have built in stability or work where they will chase targets to apply their effects or follow the caster to keep their high cost energy effects on them. That fervor mechanic is some what lacking ideally kalla is a glass cannon that focuses on condi an hard crits.

    There should not be sustain found within its traits because thats not what its about its an offensive supporter not a better version of ventari.

    In short all this spec needs to work properly is improvements to the weapons and utility. The traits are for the most part perfectly fine.
    Shortbow auto (projectile speed increase)
    every other skill cast time cut by 50%. Their current times make them impossible to hit anything thats not standing completely still.
    Skill 2 can miss a target just from a person walking forward and doing nothing else or jumping and doing nothing else.
    Remove the gorund targeted aim from skill 3 make it auto aim at your target reduce the number of arrows from like 8 to 3 or sometihng like that.

  • Arkantos.7460Arkantos.7460 Member ✭✭✭

    I also have done threads about renegade .... its simple overwork summonings to be useful at not fishfutter
    speed up all cast from summonings and shortbow ... to fir in all directions

  • I'm happy with Renegade for the most part. I have just three issues with it:

    1. Visual noise of Shortbow autoattack.

    2. The F2 skill is useless.

    3. Cannot use Claw of the Khan-Ur on it.

    All the other issues I have are more related to the base class.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    I don't play Renegade much at all because I'm not particularly fond of its flavor. However, I absolutely love the shortbow.
    ...in theory. It really does need some love because the kit itself is quite interesting. I agree with others that the skills in general just feel too slow. A couple tweaks that I think would be cool:

    • Scrap Sevenshot and make it a single projectile that is both a blast finisher and a blind. It doesn't seem like ANet will implement an evade into the kit, so just a blind would go a long way for an additional defensive tool. Damage could be scaled down, but not too much.
    • Greatly reduce the delay on skill 4. It takes way too long for it to actually appear, which makes it very clunky. Apart from that, it's a really cool skill.
  • Damage instant

    Damage on summons needs to be instant.. this ensures u can still deal offensive pressure and not get your summons lol interupted besides waisting energy or litterally walk out of the attack, that is nothing but an insult to the player using a renegade. Me and My friend were testing renegades build and I realised u could litterally walk out of it. :angry . also even if the summon gets interupted the damage portion will continue. all that gets interupted is the field and additional bonuses one can aquire

    for example no 6 duration skills but at best go with pulse damage no longer then 3 seconds. cast time on average 0.5 secs.

    Boons instant

    Boons are awared on the moment of activation. U already waste rather modere amounts of energy. and since the other legend atm is either the expensive shiro or jalis. U cannot tripple punish a player for using cooldowns, energy and then get interupted or killed by AOE. U cannot expect players to just stand in an large AOE field to get support when standing still in this burst meta is akin to suicide espically with scourges around.

    Bonuses reliant on standing inside the field or not

    If players want an additional bonuses like 250 armour or maby additional effects like an condi they can choose to stand in or not and dependant on how long u stand in it u get an temporary bonus.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Here's a crazy idea. How about turning the Kalla utilities into trap skills? The cast times can remain the same, but they would be instantly summoned when an enemy triggers them. There could also be some nice effects that happen on the triggers like Icerazer could chill enemies, Darkrazor could blind them, and Razorclaw could give allies fury. It's not like this would fix all of Renegades problems, but I just feel like traps would suit the theme of guerilla warfare much better than the current mechanics.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    Well Anet solutions have been to reduce energy by 5 and only in PvP. there is no point of open dialogue at this point, since there was million threads here and in PvP forum. Anet either does know, does not care or too arrogant to admit failed design. No amount of energy or number massaging can fix renegade. Well, unless they make SB deal million bleeds, then maybe. If you can manage to hit...

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I think most of the traits are perfectly fine for renegade The traits for fury and what not actually go well with traits in some of the other core lines for rev

    Nah they really do need a buff. Probably not All of these changes, but at least some sustain.

    The thing is Rev is the only class designed originally with the Elite specialization system in mind, so there is no such thing as "Core" Rev as opposed to other classes. This means a lot of the traits and effects are balanced under the free boon duration bonuses and stats you get from Herald. Without those, a lot of the core traitlines suffer because their boon duration by default is generally kitten. So in order to be any good, Renegade traits will almost have to be slightly overtuned to be viable to make up for what you lost in boonspam or else traits such as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Defiance end up being really bad.

    In other words, switching from Herald doesn't just mean you don't get Herald stuff, the loss of free concentration / boon duration on demand means the rest of your traitlines also suffer. If Renegade traits don't offer something good to offset this loss, it will remain a suboptimal spec.

    This is why Mallyx is making a slight comeback as a not-terrible build but on Herald Glint/Mallyx instead of Renegade even though Renegade is supposed to be the "Condi spec". Without that boon duration from Herald and sustain from glint, Mallyx is too much of a glass cannon. So the only way condi-Mallyx can ever work with Renegade is if the traitline receives enough extra survival and sustain built into the spec to prevent Mallyx from instantly dying the second a half decent player breathes in your general direction.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:
    I think most of the traits are perfectly fine for renegade The traits for fury and what not actually go well with traits in some of the other core lines for rev

    Nah they really do need a buff. Probably not All of these changes, but at least some sustain.

    A few of them maybe only in numbers but that wont change much

    The thing is Rev is the only class designed originally with the Elite specialization system in mind, so there is no such thing as "Core" Rev as opposed to other classes. This means a lot of the traits and effects are balanced under the free boon duration bonuses and stats you get from Herald. Without those, a lot of the core traitlines suffer because their boon duration by default is generally kitten. So in order to be any good, Renegade traits will almost have to be slightly overtuned to be viable to make up for what you lost in boonspam or else traits such as https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Demonic_Defiance end up being really bad.

    Sustain wont fix its issues to be honest. It need the damage for a few reasons.
    1 Rev fails without glint and glint provides 1 burst nigation tool while it is 1 trick to sustain its not the best trick and it slacks at negating burst condition. Heralds boons fill in all the damage cuts rev took early on. Rev was very strong without herald but ended up getting many heavy nerfs. The boon spam made up for most of those nerfs and became a rev standard

    Giving Renegade sustain will leave it lacking in damage which wont let it kill even if you get the sustain. This is why i say look at the utility before the traits.

    In other words, switching from Herald doesn't just mean you don't get Herald stuff, the loss of free concentration / boon duration on demand means the rest of your traitlines also suffer. If Renegade traits don't offer something good to offset this loss, it will remain a suboptimal spec.

    Well yes thats the whole point of taking a different elite spec you shouldn't keep the same things that you had in the previous one. You shouldn't expect to get that concentration or boon duration on demand. If you want to make a claim that the other traits suffer then dont look to Rengade to fix them power should be removed from the herald trait line and given back to the others. Rev is currently too dependent on herald and that shouldn't be a thing to start with.

    This is why Mallyx is making a slight comeback as a not-terrible build but on Herald Glint/Mallyx instead of Renegade even though Renegade is supposed to be the "Condi spec". Without that boon duration from Herald and sustain from glint, Mallyx is too much of a glass cannon. So the only way condi-Mallyx can ever work with Renegade is if the traitline receives enough extra survival and sustain built into the spec to prevent Mallyx from instantly dying the second a half decent player breathes in your general direction.

    Incorrect Renegade is suppose to be a hybrid offensive support spec. (its not 100% condi or 100% power as its main mechanic boost condi damage and ferocity)
    You can sustain some boons just not all of the same boons. You can still sustain fury, might, swiftness (i think) if memory serves me correctly depending on your build. Like i said you cannot expect to get the same things you got out of herald and boons were not a form of sustain for herald. Heralds boons only made up part of why it works so well. Heralds boons filled in the damage nerfs core rev took in the HoT beta days. A major part of why it works so well is because the healing skill has unlimited potential when used at the right time to negate a burst while every other healing skill on rev is sub par. Once again its too dependent on Herald.

    To fix the majority of Revs including Renegade issues you have to remove some of the strength from herald and put it back into the core lines via new mechanics, number adjustments, or additional mechanics to its current ones.

    Ideally we don't want more specs for rev that make it super dependent upon those specs. Rev being a multi role / multi class kind of profession is its biggest weakness because all its trait lines make it very situational

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the renegade should be about "leading a warband", so scrap those fake ritualist spirits, and move on to a full minion master elite specialization, summoning Kalla's warband to your aid. If you want to take it further, change the summoned allies depending on the active legend, so you get dwarf soldiers if you're Jalis, centaurs if you're Ventari, and so on.

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    First suggestion: Overhaul the core class first.

    Renegade is build on a wiggling ground.
    Improving rev in general and giving better trait interactions would make it easier to build elites arround it.

    This. Renegade might be broken, but revenant is even worse, and no matter how much you improve herald and renegade, the problems from revenant will still be there.

    It's time to admit the whole "legend-locked slot skills" thing was a bad idea, and look for a new different mechanic for legends. Few redesign ideas here for those interested.

  • Wondrouswall.7169Wondrouswall.7169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Here's a crazy idea. How about turning the Kalla utilities into trap skills? The cast times can remain the same, but they would be instantly summoned when an enemy triggers them. There could also be some nice effects that happen on the triggers like Icerazer could chill enemies, Darkrazor could blind them, and Razorclaw could give allies fury. It's not like this would fix all of Renegades problems, but I just feel like traps would suit the theme of guerilla warfare much better than the current mechanics.

    I can get on board with this suggestion. Would do away with summons becoming useless when CC'd, assuming that's part of it.

    Edit: Though, just having the buffs continue even if the current summons is CC'd would change a great deal. Thinking a bit more, there are current advantages of not requiring enemies to trigger them.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Edited to include a change to core Rev. After playing around with Renegade and Herald some more I've concluded that the removal of Duelists Preparation for the game has unjustly hit Renegade in such a way that was likely not intended by the devs.

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2018

    Hybrid Renegade works fine as is, it's clunky because of the LOS issues on Sb 4 and 5. which is also why it's defensive capabilities are a bit sub par atm.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2018

    Renegade works in pve quite well, but this thread is about pvp where the spec is considered comically undertuned. Even the best possible Renegade build ( Shiro Jalis Power ) is going to be -200 hit to your elo at top performance.

  • Love the ideas! I really think you hit the nail on the head about Renegade’s pvp issues. Evasion should be a big thing for it considering that it was sold as “ambushing” the enemy like Kalla which indicates a more guerilla warfare hit and run type tactic. That also includes being harder to hit. Unfortunately nothing about renegade in pvp at the moment is particularly hard to hit and on top of that you see everything coming at you from a mile away. A lot of your changes would help make it more true to its design and also give it the defense it needs.

    Since you asked for any pve related critiques, I’d like to mention that while most of the changes wouldn’t hurt/help dps numbers in pve for renegade, the idea of making our current grandmasters baseline would be somewhere around a 1-3k dps increase (maybe higher? Probably not) for all renegade variants. I’m not sure the class needs that since it already hits 32k on small and invocation rev on large hit box can do 36k+. Just wanted to throw that out there since yo specifically asked for it! Great work on the rest of it; I really hope they give renegade some or most of your suggestions

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Citadel Order skills have cooldowns like any normal non spammy ability in the game. The Energy cost need to be reduced by 75%.
    Orders from Above- Needs an additional effect that adds a benefit to the Revenant that cast it.
    Heroic Command- I would like some small energy regen buff for each stack when this is used. that would make this more helpful especially when not in Renegade Legend.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    First suggestion: Overhaul the core class first.

    Renegade is build on a wiggling ground.

    ^ But core revenant isn't even that bad tho.

    Rev in general isn't as bad as people think. It's just harder to play and doesn't hold your hand. Herald is already capable of taking the slot of holosmith in certain team comps.

    Only things I would personally want are 1) Cleansing channel buffed to 2 condi and 2) First part of sword 4 a block again, with second part the same skill as it is now.

    huh? yeah it is. Most people dont even play Rev without an Elite Spec. the base class is that badly designed.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also I like the Elite, but I cant really use it for self because the high energy cost of everything along side the Weapon cost and even the Citadel Orders. We need a mechanic to gain energy while staying in our legend.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knighthonor.4061 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    First suggestion: Overhaul the core class first.

    Renegade is build on a wiggling ground.

    ^ But core revenant isn't even that bad tho.

    Rev in general isn't as bad as people think. It's just harder to play and doesn't hold your hand. Herald is already capable of taking the slot of holosmith in certain team comps.

    Only things I would personally want are 1) Cleansing channel buffed to 2 condi and 2) First part of sword 4 a block again, with second part the same skill as it is now.

    huh? yeah it is. Most people dont even play Rev without an Elite Spec. the base class is that badly designed.

    Sorry I didn't make myself clear on this one.

    By Core Revenant I meant to say "Herald" since Rev is the one class that was designed with the elite spec system in mind. Core rev technically doesn't exist.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revenants desperately needs to be uncoupled from Heralds to make future especs better fitting

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Revenants desperately needs to be uncoupled from Heralds to make future especs better fitting

    Exactly.

  • Hoshikogi.7160Hoshikogi.7160 Member ✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    The functionality of the summons in WvW definitely needs to be improved.
    --Developers greatly reduced the damage that summons take from Non-Player-Characters. They need to apply this toughness to the summons in WvW vs Player characters. Making their resilience scale with number of enemy players within a 2000 radius would help balance them and make them sustainable. This insures that smaller groups could still kill them, but 50 man zergs cannot steam roll them as easily. Balance is key.

    --The Renegade is a powerful support hybrid class. The talent "All for One" is a support based party inspiration talent and should to be expanded. While providing protection, it should also provide one unique buff for each summon as well. Daring should provide a few stacks of group stability, Bastion should provide regeneration, Ire should provide Vigor, Rage should provide Retaliation, and Summit should provide Swiftness. These are all the buffs that renegade provides to the party via Boon Spirit and other means, this helps them maintain those buffs better on their party while also providing the elusive swiftness boon that commanders demand of Revenants in WvW.

    --Razorclaws Rage is a party support buff that provides a bleeding proc on attack. Since the ability is an elite class specialized party support buff, and Revenant is locked into this skill regardless of what kind of build they choose to be, this ability's damage modifier needs to be changed to consider alternative builds, not just the revenant's own condition power. OR It needs to provide something else beneficial to the group to compensate for it's overall limited usefulness.

    --Icerazor's Ire should have the cripple removed on the 20x hits component, and instead pulse a ~1 second Chill effect on 5 targets every second while caught within the summon's 360 range field. His name is Icerazor after all.

    --If these summons are going to be CC'able and kill-able, then their effects need to be more devastating while also sustaining them too. Or even better, give them a component that harshly punishes people for killing them. That works too. Shoot, lets go a step forward and make the summons punish people for CC'ing them as well. Turn all these horrible checks and balances into a benefit that makes WvW raids proud to have Renegades in their parties.

    --For the love of all that is renegade, make these 5 limited summons share the Renegade's Boons. An 'ability' should not need to be buffed with exterior boons to be good. This is just taking boons away from your allies and you...

  • Hoshikogi.7160Hoshikogi.7160 Member ✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    Shoot, lets go a step forward and make the summons punish people for CC'ing them as well. Turn all these horrible checks and balances into a benefit that makes WvW raids proud to have Renegades in their parties.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good post. I sincerely hope the right people read this.

  • Aodlop.1907Aodlop.1907 Member ✭✭✭

    I think some spells should just be deleted and replaced tbh. The fact that every single Kalla utility works the same way is boring. Revenant already lacks customization, but with Kalla we also lack diversity. We have 4 versions of the same spell...
    They could remove those (maybe keep one summon) and create new spells based around the whole "portals" theme of the Renegade spec ? I could see an utility spell similar to the Guardian scepter root, with chains comming through portals and allowing us to kite with our shortbow, or w/e. That or an aura that would portal away any projectile thrown at us for X duration. Just some idea that come to my mind.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Hoping there is some message like a Firm Claw on Renegade redo is coming hopefully. Backstory says she was fast so she needs to be fast and deadly and also not so predictable. I do like the portal idea... whack-a-charr game yep and portals that come out of the air in random places shooting at your target make placement of those reflects much more vital than lemme just put it here and laugh at the rev.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bumping this thread as I have revised the ideas to be more fluid and condensed into possibilities instead of just flat suggestions. Should be easier to read / slightly less TL;DR now.

  • To be honest, the lack of Claw of the Khan-Ur hurts me the most...

    I think that some people actually like Renegade as it is so we shouldn't expect a total rework (although I wish it happened). So my suggestion would be to change the effects od skills in order to make them synergize.

    As people already mentioned - all cast times should be reduced by ~50%, especially the Elite Utility. No need for damage buffs or trait changes

    • Update Shortbow #2 and #4, and let #4 be fired from behind (afterall, the arrows go into the portal do why not?).

    • Icerazor's Ire - I'd make this skill actually icy. Make it apply Chill with ICD, so it wouldn't apply 1836272 stacks of Torment with Abyssal Chill traited. If not - take away the Cripple and make it Ice Field.

    Same with other utilities - give them something to be worth using for. Combo Fields, more effectiveness per Summon, etc.
    This is a Charr Warband, not some Sylvari Plant turrets.

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