SPvP Chaos traitline

Ridding ourselves of the pitchfork gathering that is the PvP forums, I'm posting this here.Concise story; I used to main Mesmer Pre-HoT. Now, I play Core Guardian. I've been top 25 the past 3-4 seasons.

To the matter at hand.What do Chaos Chronomancers actually struggle to 1v1? What to look out for when fighting Chaos Mirages/Chronos, outside of the obvious Warlocks / Defenders / Avengers / Disenchanters. How do I out-rotate something that has portal and close to unlimited leaps and blinks?

I can't seem to 1v1 it, and I can't rotate around it. Meaning if the Mesmers team has a stronger teamfighting comp, the games are more than likely a bust.

I know that Mesmers are close to god-tier atm, but have you people playing it noticed anything it's particularly weak to?

Edit: How would you bring Mesmers to be in-line with the other classes without completely gutting the class? (outside of nerfing Phantasm DPS)

Use LoS, Mesmers can't cast Phantasms when opponents are out of LoS and this applies as well to Disenchanter and Warlocks. Don't hit their Shield blocks, like Spellbreaker the tell is obvious, you can also dodge the Phantasm spawned from it. Use terrain to your advantage, just jumping up a higher floor allows you to avoid getting attacked by Avengers and Defenders as they're melee.

They don't have unlimited Blinks and dashes, the ones that they can use for defensive mobility is Staff 2 and Blink (unless they were using Mirage lol).

All in all if you know how Mesmer plays, it becomes easier to deal with them, most Phantasms are pretty easily avoidable, and they can't really kill you unless you mess up.

They're not really that strong tbh. Chronomancer is way too slow compared to Mirage and Mirage is just immortal in the hands of a good player. Not to mention the superior mobility.

@"Refia Montes.3205" said:Use LoS, Mesmers can't cast Phantasms when opponents are out of LoS and this applies as well to Disenchanter and Warlocks. Don't hit their Shield blocks, like Spellbreaker the tell is obvious, you can also dodge the Phantasm spawned from it. Use terrain to your advantage, just jumping up a higher floor allows you to avoid getting attacked by Avengers and Defenders as they're melee.

They don't have unlimited Blinks and dashes, the ones that they can use for defensive mobility is Staff 2 and Blink (unless they were using Mirage lol).

All in all if you know how Mesmer plays, it becomes easier to deal with them, most Phantasms are pretty easily avoidable, and they can't really kill you unless you mess up.

"Cant really kill you unless you mess up", Disenchanters has crit me for up to 9k on Paladin Amulet, Avengers hits for about 6k when critting as well.

Being a Guardian, I will always (or close to) proc the second shield instance due to symbols being a core part of the class. I also have NO access to vigor which makes it very awkward having to waste a dodge on the Mesmer block rather than Shatters / Disenchanter / Defender.

Using terrain and LoSing is all fine, but I'm looking for a way were I can actually win the node. Surviving against them is not hard, being able to pressure them enough to force them off node and possibly even killing them. That's almost impossible atm.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Ridding ourselves of the pitchfork gathering that is the PvP forums, I'm posting this here.Concise story; I used to main Mesmer Pre-HoT. Now, I play Core Guardian. I've been top 25 the past 3-4 seasons.

To the matter at hand.What do Chaos Chronomancers actually struggle to 1v1? What to look out for when fighting Chaos Mirages/Chronos, outside of the obvious Warlocks / Defenders / Avengers / Disenchanters. How do I out-rotate something that has portal and close to unlimited leaps and blinks?

I can't seem to 1v1 it, and I can't rotate around it. Meaning if the Mesmers team has a stronger teamfighting comp, the games are more than likely a bust.

I know that Mesmers are close to god-tier atm, but have you people playing it noticed anything it's particularly weak to?

Edit: How would you bring Mesmers to be in-line with the other classes without completely gutting the class? (outside of nerfing Phantasm DPS)

You could rename your thread into CHAOS CHRONOMANCER IS AIDS because chronophantasma is responsible for that.If you look for vulnerability : thief s/d (if u land ur burst on condi s/d they are rip too) , burst condition builds (mirage)As i did it in abomination thread of mesmer complaints : remove 2 phantasms from 1 skill, nerf disenchanter damage and reduce cd to remove boons ffs, remove/rework chronophantasma . Once its done , we would see what we can be done to bring it in line .While we at this anyone know how to ask Anet to remove thief ectoplasm from them ? This aids bother me for 5 years ...p.s mesmer doesnt have unlimited blinks/leaps/portals . Its not a thief after all (thief have personal portal but only for himself ,if that trap is not removed)

On the subject of theory - if you look at Chaos on its own it's actually a mediocre trait line and has been for ages, which is why it was rarely used since the introduction of specialisations, aside from wvw PU troll builds.

The only reason it has now become a thing since PoF and since the phantasm rework is boon synergy.

• For chrono this involves things like alacrity becoming a boon, as well as the several trait changes/additions that synergise with providing more boons in phantasm gameplay.
• For mirage it supports things like perma regen from renewing oasis, and high uptime of vigour (which also boosts condi damage), in addition with maintaining other things like might, fury and so on.

Chaos has good synergy with mirage similar to how Inspiration had good synergy with shatter chrono when the meta was Inspiration/Illusions/Chrono in the past due to RI. This is good design.

Chaos in combination with Chrono phantasm gameplay is currently excessive. However in my opinion Chaos is not the problem here - rather it is certain traits in Illusions and Chrono that synergise too well with Chaotic Persistence. It is similar to when Chrono used to have insane synergy between Mental Defence, Chronophantasma, Persistence of Memory, Shield 4, Alacrity and Restorative Illusions - all those combined made for easy shatter spam gameplay.

Now rather than shatter spam gameplay it's become phantasm and boon spam (with shatters) synergy between new phantasms, Chronophantasma, Chaotic Persistence, Bountiful Disillusionment, Alacrity (being a boon), new persistence of memory, phantasmal haste, phantasmal force, etc...

If the current state of phantasm use remains, then Chronophantasma is the first thing that should be changed - maybe even removed and replaced with a totally new trait. Chaotic Persistence could perhaps be shaved to 2.5% duration buff per boon, although I don't think that is the right thing to do because it is not an issue outside of one cheese build. In any case all those individual traits adding to brainless boon access through phantasms need to be looked at holistically and carefully shaved in places so as not to render them useless in builds outside of this one cheese.

For the record Staff is perfectly fine - yes even staff 3 double phantasm - when used either with Mirage or Core mesmer. The double warlock is interesting and allows flexibility in building for clone generation. Even the boon access is fine - hell staff 4 could still do with a buff given how weak chaos armour is now.

Regarding phantasms - yes they need further balance, some more than others.

Anyway regarding how to fight - I can't speak from guardian pov, but can give some generic stuff. For Chrono it's a case of focus target, burst and pressure hard. Immediately. I don't even bother with the phantasms - just focus the Chono hard putting them on the back foot from the start so they don't have a chance to get into their stride. Once they've blown their F4/5, Sword 2 and Blink, maybe Shield 4 (remember to wait for the second block before bursting - and then it's on a longish cooldown) if they use it, they don't have anything else other than boons and AI clutter to save them.

Sure as a mirage player of course it is easier for me to say this because it's easier to evade their phantasms and detarget from them while maintaining focus/pressure, such that I have the luxury of not worrying too much about the phantasms, plus they have a harder time disengaging from anything. As a guardian I'd imagine (please correct me if I'm wrong) you'd want to cleave through the AI rather than just ignore it?

On that note, to reaffirm - chrono has very limited mobility and get out of jail free cards, especially this cheese build. Just being aware of the usual skills and cooldowns it's much easier to keep track of this than keeping track of a mirage's skills.

Mirage on the other hand - if they're using sword you won't catch them unless you're a great thief or another mirage. Yes I believe sword ambush needs a bit of balancing.

But Mirage's weakness on the other hand is lack of sustained healing - it's harder to recover from eating damage, especially players who use long cooldown heals like False Oasis. Of course the challenge here is actually landing a good burst. One tip here is listen for the mirage cloak sound effect - while it is difficult to keep track of dodges especially with energy sigils and adventurer runes, you can hear mirage cloak better than seeing it, and will help to know when a mirage might be low on endurance - at which point they'll usually try to blink/jaunt/port/etc away to recover. Also bear in mind if they are using elusive mind and you see them break out of a cc - pressure to force out a follow up dodge and they'll be out of endurance due to exhaustion.

Anyway I'd rather not go off too much on a tangent because it seems the core of this thread is the chrono phantasm cheese which while it has a very low skill requirement is in some ways much easier to fight than a good mirage. In any case it definitely needs balancing.

@Refia Montes.3205 said:Use LoS, Mesmers can't cast Phantasms when opponents are out of LoS and this applies as well to Disenchanter and Warlocks. Don't hit their Shield blocks, like Spellbreaker the tell is obvious, you can also dodge the Phantasm spawned from it. Use terrain to your advantage, just jumping up a higher floor allows you to avoid getting attacked by Avengers and Defenders as they're melee.

They don't have unlimited Blinks and dashes, the ones that they can use for defensive mobility is Staff 2 and Blink (unless they were using Mirage lol).

All in all if you know how Mesmer plays, it becomes easier to deal with them, most Phantasms are pretty easily avoidable, and they can't really kill you unless you mess up.

So basically don't ever stand on point and don't hit an instant cast block?

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Refia Montes.3205 said:Use LoS, Mesmers can't cast Phantasms when opponents are out of LoS and this applies as well to Disenchanter and Warlocks. Don't hit their Shield blocks, like Spellbreaker the tell is obvious, you can also dodge the Phantasm spawned from it. Use terrain to your advantage, just jumping up a higher floor allows you to avoid getting attacked by Avengers and Defenders as they're melee.

They don't have unlimited Blinks and dashes, the ones that they can use for defensive mobility is Staff 2 and Blink (unless they were using Mirage lol).

All in all if you know how Mesmer plays, it becomes easier to deal with them, most Phantasms are pretty easily avoidable, and they can't really kill you unless you mess up.

Well, that's how you deal with Scourges and Spellbreakers (pre-nerfed) as a squishy +1 class anyways. There are proffessions where contesting a point is much harder and will require you to kill them safely before capping.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Refia Montes.3205 said:Use LoS, Mesmers can't cast Phantasms when opponents are out of LoS and this applies as well to Disenchanter and Warlocks. Don't hit their Shield blocks, like Spellbreaker the tell is obvious, you can also dodge the Phantasm spawned from it. Use terrain to your advantage, just jumping up a higher floor allows you to avoid getting attacked by Avengers and Defenders as they're melee.

They don't have unlimited Blinks and dashes, the ones that they can use for defensive mobility is Staff 2 and Blink (unless they were using Mirage lol).

All in all if you know how Mesmer plays, it becomes easier to deal with them, most Phantasms are pretty easily avoidable, and they can't really kill you unless you mess up.

If you're dodging when the shield phantams would be spawning you'll completely prevent the Phantasmal Defenders from spawning so if you hit the shild you still have an out.

Also yeah, don't tunnel vision the node. The node is your reward for winning the fight. If you can prevent a decap, or prevent them from getting a fullcap that's great. But at the end of the day winning the fight and capping the node in your leisure is more important than just squatting on the node taking damage and I'll kite around and reset the fight as much as I need to do it. And most nodes on most maps have so much terrain you can use to completely swing fights that most players don't even look at.

You sound like those guys who just run into Scourge sewage, instantly die and then whine about it on the forums. Mesmer is absolutely overtuned at the moment, but it sounds like you have zero interesting learning how to combat them. Since you think dodging a skill with a very predictable and telegraphed 1.5 second wind up is an impossible task I really don't know what to say to you.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:have you people playing it noticed anything it's particularly weak to?

Edit: How would you bring Mesmers to be in-line with the other classes without completely gutting the class? (outside of nerfing Phantasm DPS)

I'm playing a build not even close to the meta and I got to Platinum but I struggle against good Warriors, the odd P/P or Rifle Thief because I lack reflects, a really good core Guard meditation burst build, sometimes trap DH when caught off guard or pulled in, 30% of holosmiths too... Oh, Scourges with portal and scepter equipped, scary stuff.

I think a cap of 4 or 5 on phantasms would be a start.Illusionary Rogue needs a damage nerf, with Chronophantasma trait it can be endless spam.Chronophantasma might need to work the same as Imagined Burden where you give yourself -25% damage for the extra phantasms.

A bit outside the box - Mass Invis cannot effect clones and phantasms. I use that a lot to get a good surprise on people.

@sephiroth.4217 said:Chronophantasma might need to work the same as Imagined Burden where you give yourself -25% damage for the extra phantasms.Good idea, lets add many traits that not making your skills better, but gives you debuff -25/-50 % ? XD