How long more will Deadeyes go unchecked? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How long more will Deadeyes go unchecked?

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Comments

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

  • FASTCAR.7831FASTCAR.7831 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Speaking as a Necro main.
    They are a nightmare.
    I have bias.
    But their endless stealth needs nerf.

    DE have no effect on me at all, I find them weak and easy bags

    LEGENDARY FASTCAR
    YOUTUBE BOOSTEDLASER

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    I'll stealth for launching Cursed bullt, getting Revealed since Deaths Judgment is kind of expensive, and to drop myself as target but the strength of deadeye for me is to generate malice quickly and trim it's buildup to roll up the bottom end of Mark so that there's little downtime. I don't have long to play after work for methodical stealth play but I can't look down on thieves who do, I've seen some really good setups just end up in death but I've seen some awesome payoffs to, if they have the time for it that kind of build has it's risk and frustrations. I can't think of any builds or classes that I can hate on really even if I get my kitten kicked in creative ways sometimes.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    I've always felt that stealth should have a downside. There was a game I played about 20 years ago that had an invisibility mechanic. While you were invisible, you had a negative armor modifier. Thus, if you tried using it after the enemy saw you, you risked being killed in one hit. Stealth has no risk in this game.

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I've always felt that stealth should have a downside. There was a game I played about 20 years ago that had an invisibility mechanic. While you were invisible, you had a negative armor modifier. Thus, if you tried using it after the enemy saw you, you risked being killed in one hit. Stealth has no risk in this game.

    Stealth is a little clunky atm, but I think it works sort of OK: In WvW there is enough AoE to push glass cannons builds away from the action, and in PvP players in stealth do not contribute to cap/decap mechanic. Stealth does enable player to "deselect himself" from being active target. Going for a stealth build can often be a downside in itself, but that could be said for every build. If you pick your engagements properly, having in mind builds strengths/weaknesses you can play to your strengths and get good results. Having that in mind, ranged class dominating over Necro in a 1v1 setting is expected, and desired outcome, giving some interesting choices for team/squad composition and roles.

  • I'm vanilla thief, the team ixpects I capture. get One-shgot by deadeye. I cannot avoid their shot when I was hidden in invisible? kitten anet

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.
    The game validations on gw2 are @ level of a beta game after 6 years, block/absorv/reflect is another issue.

    Anet dont care to improve the game, this is a game for casuals since those improvements m8 make the game to hard for casuals and they cant spam if they have to think just a bit...

    Anet have extreme poor quality in Skill QoL.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    Ive seen players getting bursted down in 2-3 seconds w/o the thief being revealed, and only be visible for me and other players in that area after down that player, stealth needs to be looked at, it is still in beta state lol... this actually happened last week, maybe because there was a really scourge spamblob nearby and thief getting out of stealth remain culled from being rendered in players screens.

    And like i said... i dont mind perma stealth thiefs, still they need to apear to atack on targets and what is happening is that most keep the initial seconds of a fight atacking stealthed and it is not 1 hit...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    Ive seen players getting bursted down in 2-3 seconds w/o the thief being revealed, and only be visible for me and other players in that area after down that player, stealth needs to be looked at, it is still in beta state lol... this actually happened last week, maybe because there was a really scourge spamblob nearby and thief getting out of stealth remain culled from being rendered in players screens.

    Like i said it would be a issue, for code reasons, reasons like u pointed, and ive actually downed invisible thiefs alone with 1 or 2 hits, but that does not mean stealth should keep working in a strange way like it is working.

    sure stealth could be changed but making proposals that will just make stealth useless and pretty much non existent in any real combat situation wont get us there.

  • it all boils down to: stealth is broken. Stealth needs to be removed.

    You can either have stealth, or be mobile and able to attack. If you have both, it is broken. Simple as that.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i wonder why there are so few players who run mainly deadeye, if they are this strong. deadeyes must have some downside to them, roamers are not known to avoid cheese builds so we would see way more if it was that easy.
    but as it is most deadeyes i see are not maining deadeye but switch to them after being killed by one, just to realize that they will die again as they are inexperienced.

    It’s probably because most players [..] dislike sitting in stealth for 5 minutes stalking someone

    well above was posted:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    he said if the deadeye choose to engage so there is no need to stalk someone for 5 minutes, its a choice. then comes insane damage without tells so sounds to me like a pretty easy super safe build that will grant me alot of kills in no time.

    but it is interesting to ask for a nerf without realizing that DE builds that daze/stun from mark and then immediatly burst are usually not the permastealth ones. going along side to SA with trickery instead of CS is quite the damage loss and the extra ini is not needed as you can oneshot - so no daze from there, if you try to remain in stealth you allways will go with silent scope and not with unforgiving - no stun from here ( tho you can use both together with traitswap during mark).
    permastealth DE will mostly use oneshot with huge tells in form of a DJ, while the type of attack you described with a dazing mark and then instant burst with stun is from DE builds that do not focus on stealth. thats like if i said a full minstrel support guard shouldnt be able to ontop of his 20k burning ticks hit me for 10k with his traps, you cant put together qualities of different builds and say it is OP, each individual build has its own strength and weaknesses. stealthy DE will have a hard time to kill anything that is not a solo nekro on open field without properly baiting and DE not so focused on stealth can be taken out alot easier. so you need to quickly see what kind of deadeye you are dealing with and well as a nekro you probably need to try to allways be near envoirement you can use but you will be at a disadvantage, like the deadeye will have some reflect and bodyblock issues in a zerg fight as well as many other issues, cant be top tier in every encounter.

    I didn’t describe dazing mark or anything just said that most people I talk to about DE only seem to know of the permanent stealth types that stalk you so you end up just running from the area. Which is why most people I know don’t play it, they also generally despise stealth camping so that’s another reason.

    Personally I tried it a long time ago trying to pick people off in a zerg before thinking eff this reflects everywhere, threw on the DP and violated a scourge before getting 13 torment on me for being near it. Doesn’t help that SD and DP give you more kills much faster than DE.

    the thread opener posted about perma stealth thieves with dazing mark followed by an instant kill without tell etc, thats why i asked about why we dont see more of those.
    i do know the downsides of a stealthy DE but i asked the question so the thread opener might realize he is talking about 2 builds in 1. as you answered i just wanted you to look at what was posted before and then did some more explaination mainly aimed at the thread opener or other confused players.

    'more kills much faster' is probably the main reason few people play stealthy deadeye and being totally garbage in group fights. but being extremely annoying with lethal potential makes people quickly call it OP.

    my personal reason to play it is probably easiest describes as i am a ppt hero that loves to run around solo so DE is the most efficent choice i could make and the more i play it the more i enjoy it. if i recall right i am matched against you again this week soo - see you out there :D

    Oh nice, you must be on Vabbi now, looking forward to “seeing” you around. I dunno what I’ll be playing though, might be some support FB so others can play necro without getting destroyed too easily but I’ll give you a wave if I see you or an instagib if on mes :tongue:

    hmm thought you are on another server my bad, i do have an account on vabbi but i rarely play that one :S

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Nuka Cola.8520 said:
    The fact that perma stealth is still possible almost six years after launch shows how much this dev cares about the balance in each particular game mode they offer in their game.

    I dont mind with perma stealth, but thieves should knock out of stealth if they got damage, issue is code wise, some skill due the nature of tab targetting will follow trough thief stealth, like LB Rangers skill 2 and others alike.

    you do realize how stupid that is i hope? that is like using an evade skill should stop evading after 1. evaded hit, blocks should allways cancel after 1 hit, immunities / invuln should be over after 1 hit. permastealth builds usually got relative low mobility/evade uptime compared to other thief builds as they would lack lethal damage otherwise, while mobility and evade will negate damage 100% , you still get hit by quite alot in stealth and alot of thieves i kill die while in stealth. in a duel stealth is already the weakest type of defense a thief has, it only grants an advantage in an open fight like in roaming/ganking as you can suprise your opponents with it.
    you cannot accomplish anything in this game while remaining in stealth, therefor there is just very few instances where it is of use to play stealth heavy. for instance for stealth capping towers/keeps but you cannot win a fight without getting visible (there is still ways to build for ghost thief but if you die to that , you got way bigger issues than thief).

    Ive seen players getting bursted down in 2-3 seconds w/o the thief being revealed, and only be visible for me and other players in that area after down that player, stealth needs to be looked at, it is still in beta state lol... this actually happened last week, maybe because there was a really scourge spamblob nearby and thief getting out of stealth remain culled from being rendered in players screens.

    Like i said it would be a issue, for code reasons, reasons like u pointed, and ive actually downed invisible thiefs alone with 1 or 2 hits, but that does not mean stealth should keep working in a strange way like it is working.

    sure stealth could be changed but making proposals that will just make stealth useless and pretty much non existent in any real combat situation wont get us there.

    Oh.. ofc that other stuff on stealth would have to change... i was just theorycrafting in possible ways to make stealth more normalized into the class(i didnt wanted to go in depth), but offc other stuff would have to change as well.

    Still theres alot stuff code wise that m8 be a extreme burden to fix, that it better to leave it borked up lol...
    So... maybe in future we can see a class that can sense stealthed units :bleep_bloop: and see shadows, like a somewhat transparent stealth unit. xD

  • Napo.1230Napo.1230 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Napo.1230 said:
    Its hard for me to feel any sympathy sorry haha I literally quit playing revenant because of Necro (scourge to be exact) and how broken it is to melee with them. Rev is my all time favourite but it's paper atm so kitten you haha.
    Deadeyes cause me no problem on most classes I find them so predictable. My tips are listen for audio ques, abuse terrain and look for black powder and the very bright laser beam.
    The ones that trouble me are the ones who don't hide in stealth but use d/p to build malice and waste dodges.

    So a class that hits like a sledgehammer from 1200 range is afraid of Scourge?

    Sorry I should have stated I'm not on about blob hammer rev. But small scale melee rev.

  • EUmad.7645EUmad.7645 Member ✭✭

    @ToPNoP.2493 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:

    @Warkind.6745 said:
    I wouldn't mind stealth getting taken down a notch as long as the defensive and offensive capabilities of the classes reliant on them (mesmer/thief) got tuned up a bit in return. Stealth is a decent mechanic, but I get the feeling it's too difficult to implement in a way that doesn't encourage stack and burst to get the most out of it.

    That said, I hardly see any deadeyes in WvW because it's such a vulnerable spec. Any Necro that's been in WvW for a significant period of time should be pretty familiar with fighting/avoiding ranged builds.

    There is a big difference between thief and mesmer . For thief stealth is much more important as mechanic than for mesmer. Mesmer has far less access to stealth and usually, with power gs chrono/mirage, you can use the first attack chain from stealth but if you don't kill you can be in trouble .Thief on the other side has much more access to stealth than mesmer ,but mesmer has much more active defense and sustain . I think in any case stealth as a major thread on thief, less on mesmer .

    yesterday a team of 5 i was in hit on a mirage for 1 minute 40 seconds before his defenses ran out. He had a few team mates at first, but i also targeted him first. He was the last to die, but it took forever to get through stealth, diamond skin, and blur. Mesmer may not have this much, but mirage is almost immortal in small group game play. But as for the rest of this forum post, maybe necro needs some love, not scourge haha, necro.

    if i am not wrong mesmer has not diamond skin... it is an ele trait i think .... Power mesmer is not immortal . IF he does not finish you with is gs burst he has a bad day .... condi boom spam with staff instead is really really hard to kill ...

  • kurogane.9681kurogane.9681 Member ✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    You just met a hard counter for your build as a necro. If a good DE is build together with Shadow Arts (Shadow's Rejuvenation, Shadow's Embrace) and Trickery (Trickster), your chance of winning is very slim to none. You can burst conditions on him once you see him but the DE got a lot of cleanse (Withdraw, Roll for Initiative and cleanse while on stealth) and proceed to kill you with ease knowing all your burst skill are on cd.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    IIRC when the game was being developed devs said stealth was going to be short term and long CDS, so I don't know what went through their heads to do a 180 spin.
    Like someone said stealth always has a drawback, most common one (at least in the games I've played) is walking at half speed, in GW2 there's no drawback whatsoever.
    That being said, DE's are easy to kill, well except for low mobility melee.

    To the one putting mes in the same bag (permastealth) mes can't do it, even engies/rangers can stack as much stealth as mes common builds).

    I'd remove stealth entirely from this game and replace it with shadowsteps (like in GW1 there was no stealth, only shadowstep/teleports).

    The degenerate

  • EpicName.4523EpicName.4523 Member ✭✭✭

    Rock is too hard. Paper is fine.

    Fond regards,
    Scissors

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EpicName.4523 said:
    Rock is too hard. Paper is fine.

    Fond regards,
    Scissors

    Could you help us sort out who's rock paper scissors here? Guardian, Revenant, Warrior, Enginner, Ranger, Thief, Elementalist, Mesmer, Necromancer, Dragonhunter, Herald, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Daredevil, Tempest, Chronomancer, Reaper, Firebrand, Renegade, Spellbreaker, Holosmith, Soulbeast, Deadeye, Weaver, Mirage, Scourge. :tongue:

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • EpicName.4523EpicName.4523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @EpicName.4523 said:
    Rock is too hard. Paper is fine.

    Fond regards,
    Scissors

    Could you help us sort out who's rock paper scissors here? Guardian, Revenant, Warrior, Enginner, Ranger, Thief, Elementalist, Mesmer, Necromancer, Dragonhunter, Herald, Berserker, Scrapper, Druid, Daredevil, Tempest, Chronomancer, Reaper, Firebrand, Renegade, Spellbreaker, Holosmith, Soulbeast, Deadeye, Weaver, Mirage, Scourge. :tongue:

    I play scourge. I have good advantage over most professions that try to melee me when properly supported. I am scissors.
    Those classes that I can own are balanced because I destroy them. They are paper.

    That long ranged glass cannon that I just cannot catch is rock. It owns me just like I own most enemies in melee. Therefore it is too strong and should be nerfed.

  • Musty.3148Musty.3148 Member ✭✭✭

    You should know what classes are your antithesis. You should know which you can kill quickly. And you should further know which will be a pretty even fight. Then pick your battles and play well, escape from ones you can't beat, attack the ones you can own, and decide on the others. It's not friggin' hard.

    And crying about a class like DE as a Scourge is just freaking ridiculous... I'm embarrassed for you as a player.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @Musty.3148 said:
    You should know what classes are your antithesis. You should know which you can kill quickly. And you should further know which will be a pretty even fight. Then pick your battles and play well, escape from ones you can't beat, attack the ones you can own, and decide on the others. It's not friggin' hard.

    And crying about a class like DE as a Scourge is just freaking ridiculous... I'm embarrassed for you as a player.

    I mean, a Scourge can't "pick" to, or not to fight a thief spec if the thief has decided to fight the scourge.
    Tack DE range in there and, as I said, pretty much the biggest hard-counter in the game. The necro can't kill the thief, nor can they run away from it.

    Lack of mobility is the reason I never solo roam on a necro. Which is a real shame.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Musty.3148Musty.3148 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Musty.3148 said:
    You should know what classes are your antithesis. You should know which you can kill quickly. And you should further know which will be a pretty even fight. Then pick your battles and play well, escape from ones you can't beat, attack the ones you can own, and decide on the others. It's not friggin' hard.

    And crying about a class like DE as a Scourge is just freaking ridiculous... I'm embarrassed for you as a player.

    I mean, a Scourge can't "pick" to, or not to fight a thief spec if the thief has decided to fight the scourge.
    Tack DE range in there and, as I said, pretty much the biggest hard-counter in the game. The necro can't kill the thief, nor can they run away from it.

    Lack of mobility is the reason I never solo roam on a necro. Which is a real shame.

    ~ Kovu

    A scourge in a tanky solo setup (which they ALL are) can get to a keep/los/get to friends. Happens daily. I agree in general, but like I said. "play well".

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm curious as to what class/build counters DE as effectively as DE counters Scourge.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not claiming to be the best at deadeye, or even all that good. But in my experience I have the most issues with warriors (even more so spellbreakers). They have several counters to death's judgement and are unlikely to be 2 shotted due to their defenses, armor and higher hp. DJ has enough tells that it gives them enough time to pop full counter (adrenaline allowed), block (can reflect if traited), endure pain. I could also see guardians being a problem if they can maintain aegis and timed well. Holosmiths are another I have issue with but I attribute that a bit more to just not knowing the profession well enough to figure it out. Any profession thats highly mobile could prolly just run away from the DE as well if they are built for stealth.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Musty.3148 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @Musty.3148 said:
    You should know what classes are your antithesis. You should know which you can kill quickly. And you should further know which will be a pretty even fight. Then pick your battles and play well, escape from ones you can't beat, attack the ones you can own, and decide on the others. It's not friggin' hard.

    And crying about a class like DE as a Scourge is just freaking ridiculous... I'm embarrassed for you as a player.

    I mean, a Scourge can't "pick" to, or not to fight a thief spec if the thief has decided to fight the scourge.
    Tack DE range in there and, as I said, pretty much the biggest hard-counter in the game. The necro can't kill the thief, nor can they run away from it.

    Lack of mobility is the reason I never solo roam on a necro. Which is a real shame.

    ~ Kovu

    A scourge in a tanky solo setup (which they ALL are) can get to a keep/los/get to friends. Happens daily. I agree in general, but like I said. "play well".

    Yeah okay, if they're not running grievers/vipers, are next to a tower/keep and only have one thief on them, they might survive.
    I certainly won't deny that.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @Khailyn.6248 said:
    I could also see guardians being a problem if they can maintain aegis and timed well.

    allways remove aegis before marking, then when shooting press f2 shortly before the bullet hits to remove aegis. actually its pretty good if they try to counter the shot with aegis for the deadeye.
    if you see any one try to avoid DJ with blocks/reflects all the time, switch in basi venom.
    as for warriors:
    while the do have several ways of avoiding a DJ , they mostly need to get to melee to deal damage and their gapclosers are charge skills and not teleports so you can easily dodge them as well and risk fighting them visibly even if build around stealth. while they are on the offense they are easiest to shoot - mostly if a warrior survives a shot it is because of a rune of durability proc, not because of HP.

    biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot.

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot.

    I main ranger. Most of the times I get the upper hand on DE, he goes into stealth and runs off. It's hardly as effective a counter as DE is to Scourge. Are there any specific ranger builds that "guarantee" a kill on DE to the same level that DE "guarantees" a kill on Scourge?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @Shining One.1635 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot.

    I main ranger. Most of the times I get the upper hand on DE, he goes into stealth and runs off. It's hardly as effective a counter as DE is to Scourge. Are there any specific ranger builds that "guarantee" a kill on DE to the same level that DE "guarantees" a kill on Scourge?

    no there is noone that can kill a DE solo if the DE doesnt want to fight. but noone not even a scourge dies to a stealth camping deadeye. the thing with scourges is tho, they are soo weak against range a stealthy deadeye can just faceroll his keyboard on range without the need for stealth and the scourge will die. but if he shoots just like once every 10-20 seconds, anyone can dodge that.
    that is the point many people seem to miss, while the deadeye is in stealth he wont kill you. if he is often and alot in stealth means he mostly deals 0 dmg.

  • @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2018

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

    not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now.

    for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CC or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements.
    the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

    not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now.

    for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements.
    the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong.

    All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

    not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now.

    for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements.
    the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong.

    All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas.

    i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased.

  • Khailyn.6248Khailyn.6248 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

    not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now.

    for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements.
    the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong.

    All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas.

    i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased.

    Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    There's also an issue where a number of the revealed skills are targeted, not radius AoE. Those don't work on targets that are already stealthed, defeating the reactive playstyle those counters are supposed to represent.
    "Oh, they've stealthed? Time to pop this utility skill that's on the bar for this reason. Oh, you mean I need to have them targeted? Well kitten."

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.
    the only thing about reveal that might not be intended is that reveal allways overwrites existing reveal no matter the duration, if you cast sic em on me after an anti stealth trap you might safe me. i killed a ranger once on my daredevil inside his revealing sand on RBL as he replaced the debuff with his short reveal.
    i didnt try to remove an anti stealth trap with DJ cast+ , but that came to my mind while typing now and i will for sure test it as soon as i get the option.

    edit: found one to test it without risking my neck , so yeah it works to reduce reveal duration from an anti stealth trap with self inflicting reveal by DJ. see for your selves:

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:

    @MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided.

    Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced.

    I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun.

    There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution.

    not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now.

    for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements.
    the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong.

    All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas.

    i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased.

    Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession.

    The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. One of the reasons desert borderlands are so much better for solo or small groups is they wind and twist so 5s stealth is usually enough to ditch a hungry zerg.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:
    Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession.

    The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is.

    if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes.

    They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work.

    if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    I am on the other side of the spectrum with regards to this I suppose - I actually enjoy trying to fight stealthed opponents and trying to outplay them. I like trying to figure out their plays, how soon after they stealth that they attack, do they attack aggressively or choose their moments, are they just attacking wildly or are they noticing my cooldowns and boons. I like to listen to the signs and see the little telltales of their position, which direction their character is facing or leaping as they stealth, how far the area I can hit them with an aoe just after they stealthed, how fast they will be able to manuever with whatever skills they have left in stealth. It's like lotto and I want to win it by logical guestimation. Just by the initial touch-n-go in the encounter gives me enough information on how to react. I don't always win but this always prepares me more for the next encounter, and they become less effective against me. Ever get a thief message you saying you are hacking by always figuring their position (not counting the ones with their mini's out hehehe)? They can be annoying, sure, but they can be avoided and beaten too. They will really hate you if even after everything they got bested. For those that also play thieves, many things can also be learned from foe that you may have not tried before.

    There are problems in this game, but this doesn't rank as high on the list overall (for me).

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    @Euryon.9248 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Khailyn.6248 said:
    Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession.

    The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is.

    if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes.

    They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work.

    if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth.

    Yes the thief isn’t attacking but you can’t either, if they keep attacking on their terms and blind you on attack out of stealth or from behind you can’t counter burst them very well at all then a few seconds later they’re back in stealth. As I say most thieves don’t actually appreciate how it shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when skills need a target. It’s the same with any class that keeps popping in and out of stealth not just thieves either, the same was true of PU mesmers when the torch trait allowed insane stealth uptime, druids going into stealth every 5s, I’d say scrapper but they’re as rare as balance patches.

    Agree completely. My big issue with stealth in this game is that it puts the encounter almost entirely in the hands of the player with the stealth. They choose whom and when to fight, how long to continue if they don't immediately win, whether to retreat permanently or just to restore cds and attack again, whether to harrass endlessly until their opponent makes one mistake, etc. It's all about the skills of the player with stealth and precious little about the skills of the other player. The only way to kill a half-decent stealth thief is if the thief makes a major mistake. A mediocre thief who doesn't totally screw up will never die to a much more skilled necro, warrior, rev, etc, although they may not succeed in killing the other player, either. But if they waste enough of the other player's time, they still win. A thief whose goal is just to kitten off people and make them ragequit or leave because it's simply not fun is a bane to the game.

    yup ' they might not actually succeed in killing '. it is unfun to fight against stealth mainly because you cannot force an end to the fight apart from running away, but stealth is still not strong in a fight. i keep hearing, people not enjoying to stack stealth would be the reason not to play it - but if it was actually stronger in a fight, that wouldnt matter. i am fine with request towards changing how stealth works, but not nerfing it as such as i dont think it is too strong, annoying yes - strong nope.
    i stopped solo roaming with non stealth classes not because of stealthed opponents but because of larger groups that would pose an unwinnable fight for me ( downstate too strong in X vs 1) still think they need to chase me all over the map. groups and a stealther both i cannot force to die with lets say my FA ele , but when the stealther attacks he risks his dead, the group doesnt. i dont waste my time trying to force a fight on a stealther without reason, if he is not in or around an objective i dont need to care and if he is i can use that to bait him out and kill. you wont have fun if you try to force kill a stealther without reason. but any reason can be used as bait. you want that camp? go ahead wont take it while in stealth. you want to defend the camp? then you got to come out quick or i will flip it. etc.
    here an unfun example of last night: i (blue) opened a red paper tower (my spawntower on DBL), while at lord 2 shatterstorm bug abusers from green came by and died. while stomping the 2nd a group of 5 red came in reaper, scourge, firebrand, druid, mesmer. so i retreated from the lord with stealth a bit waiting for them to split up. when they did i killed first the mesmer, then the druid. they rezzed each other again then they stacked with 5 people waiting for me to attack - i did ( because their mesmer was condi so no high counterburst) but they kept ressurecting faster then i could stomp. so i went to the other side of the tower /sit and waited till they left, sometimes they came by so i again stealthed and switched the side of the tower. after like half an hour they jumped out and i flipped the tower. they probably hated me as much for wasting their time as i hated them. they didnt want to risk anything, so i didnt aswell.
    it is not just the stealther that decides for an unfun fight, many dont want to risk a thing, people stacking with 5 or more on one spot expecting me to attack happens daily. when i die its mostly against a single opponent tho not a group, because i risked too much to get a kill - cause camping stealth wont kill a good opponent ( apart from backstab onehits in some cases) and while visible i am dead in 1-3 hits.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @intox.6347 said:
    ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem.
    And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def...

    this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game.

    .#thosepeskyfacts

    You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever.

    .#thetruefacts

    not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @intox.6347 said:
    ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem.
    And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def...

    this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game.

    .#thosepeskyfacts

    You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever.

    .#thetruefacts

    not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam.

    that is correct. action cam only hides the laser but that is enough for many people not to connet the other tells to the bullet :D

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    Just hang out near other players fighting (1 will suffice). Mark, stay stealthed and the second you see them dodge a second time down them. There is nothing hard about playing deadeye.

    to +1 someone deadeye altho can be played very safe is super inefficient compared to most other builds as one dodge will make alot of seconds in stealth wasted in wich another class could have killed him already.

  • fluffdragon.1523fluffdragon.1523 Member ✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak.

    Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth.

    Hey all. Deadeye and thief main here. I don't do competitive play but felt like popping in to see what the complaints were about. Glad to see there's a legitimate concern here!

    Anyhow, I haven't actually run stealth since Daredevil got released, mostly because having to spam skills to maintain it felt like a real waste when PvE mobs can be easily distracted by standing behind them (yay for Line of Sight). I will say, however, that I've seen a number of cases of long duration stealth being abused on Youtube in the past, so I agree that something needs to be done to manage this.

    But ... let's not forget how prolific stealth is. Mesmers, Engineers, Thief, and Ranger all have it to some degree, with the first three professions having the ability to enter it for quite some time.

    I think I might have a nice workaround based on old GW1 mechanics, however. What would people say to stealth no longer stacking from multiple activations (not pulses) of the same source? For example, this would mitigate the old Dagger/Pistol combo for stacking stealth by only refreshing the current maximum. Likewise, only the longest duration would be applied, replacing any shorter duration.

    This way, if you use a 3s stealth skill followed by a 5s stealth skill, you receive only 5s of stealth instead of about 8.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    @fluffdragon.1523 said:
    I think I might have a nice workaround based on old GW1 mechanics, however. What would people say to stealth no longer stacking from multiple activations (not pulses) of the same source? For example, this would mitigate the old Dagger/Pistol combo for stacking stealth by only refreshing the current maximum. Likewise, only the longest duration would be applied, replacing any shorter duration.

    This way, if you use a 3s stealth skill followed by a 5s stealth skill, you receive only 5s of stealth instead of about 8.

    no you recieve nearly 8 if you use the 5s skill towards the end of the 3s. the only thing it will lower is stealth with combos while they are actually a vulnerable spot in a steath camping rotation as they mostly include hits wich can lead to a reveal. then i might not be an issue as solo stealth deadeye as i hardly will keep stealth, but i can group up with a 2nd deadeye and continue now with less counterplay and 2 people able to deal damage - how is that going to improve your experience?
    or do combos still stack because same source? then nothing changes at all.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    Actually has a full zerker revenant im ok with the KoS stuff deadeye has, my only issue is the stunner trough blocks, after that is a 15k+ hit, last time i fough one i couldnt even swap legends and that should be possible????

    Im more worried with the 100% sleath thieg that burst while still on stealth.

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