How long more will Deadeyes go unchecked? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How long more will Deadeyes go unchecked?

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  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    The lag is so bad some days, that the laser and sound do NOT always happen (and the action cam laser thing needs fixing). I've downed tons of people in 1 shot where there was nothing after marking them.
    The power creep is real (not just thief obviously) and the reason you don't see a ton of deadeyes is because it's just boring. Near perma stealth is easy, and you do not have to sacrifice mobility to get that damage. Just hang out near other players fighting (1 will suffice). Mark, stay stealthed and the second you see them dodge a second time down them. There is nothing hard about playing deadeye.

    A profession/build being boring has never and will never stop the players who want to win from playing them. Bunker/runaway druid is probably the most boring, but it still has more presence than DE. If this profession/build was truly as OP as some people make it out to be, you bet your butt it would be the most played roaming build. From my experience it's not even in the top 10 in terms of "most played." This experience coming from roaming in t1/t2/t3 over the past 3 weeks.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.

    Sorry, I should've clarified. Those skills are working as intended. They just can't be called "counter play" to stealth when many professions don't have the ability to reveal a stealth-er already in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.

    Sorry, I should've clarified. Those skills are working as intended. They just can't be called "counter play" to stealth when many professions don't have the ability to reveal a stealth-er already in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    weakness also cannot be applied while the target is evading , it does not prevent evading but still is a counter to it. reveal as an effect once applied is a counter to stealth, the abilities appying reveal tho might not turn you into a hard counter to a stealther. thats like the minstrel guards trying to get my deadeye out of their keep with an anti stealth trap, as if that reveal would kill me if there is noone around to deal damage.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.

    Sorry, I should've clarified. Those skills are working as intended. They just can't be called "counter play" to stealth when many professions don't have the ability to reveal a stealth-er already in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    weakness also cannot be applied while the target is evading , it does not prevent evading but still is a counter to it. reveal as an effect once applied is a counter to stealth, the abilities appying reveal tho might not turn you into a hard counter to a stealther. thats like the minstrel guards trying to get my deadeye out of their keep with an anti stealth trap, as if that reveal would kill me if there is noone around to deal damage.

    Yeah. Okay. So allow everyone to have a legitimate reactive counter to stealthers since everyone has to deal with it.
    You're tip-toeing around the point I'm trying to make. Or I'm awful at explaining things, one of the two.
    (If revealed were as prevalent and easy to apply as weakness is in this game we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

    ~ Kovu

    oh its because i dont quite understand why you need a counter to stealthers that remain in stealth. i do see long stealth as means to avoid a fight and rather weak in a fight compared to other defenses, it wont make you win a fight as it gives your opponent too much time to recover. for short stealth poping in and out those reveal skills are neither needed nor useful and long stealth is pretty weak as such, its basically a self cripple for 1 vs 1 fights to bring too much stealth with you because you could take more usefull stuff.
    why exactly do you need the ability to force a fight upon someone that doesnt want to? do you also ask to remove the invuln at spawns ?
    once engaged in the fight you can cast your sic em, because you will get a target once you get attacked.
    if you really need to try hard force a fight on the stealther any class has the ability to see certain animations related to the skills used to stack stealth and can preassure the stealther in stealth or eventually force him out by letting yourself get hit by a leap/blast. yes thats not a 'ill press this one button and done' solution but keeping long stealth is also not ' activate stealth'-> chill.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.

    Sorry, I should've clarified. Those skills are working as intended. They just can't be called "counter play" to stealth when many professions don't have the ability to reveal a stealth-er already in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    weakness also cannot be applied while the target is evading , it does not prevent evading but still is a counter to it. reveal as an effect once applied is a counter to stealth, the abilities appying reveal tho might not turn you into a hard counter to a stealther. thats like the minstrel guards trying to get my deadeye out of their keep with an anti stealth trap, as if that reveal would kill me if there is noone around to deal damage.

    Yeah. Okay. So allow everyone to have a legitimate reactive counter to stealthers since everyone has to deal with it.
    You're tip-toeing around the point I'm trying to make. Or I'm awful at explaining things, one of the two.
    (If revealed were as prevalent and easy to apply as weakness is in this game we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

    ~ Kovu

    oh its because i dont quite understand why you need a counter to stealthers that remain in stealth. i do see long stealth as means to avoid a fight and rather weak in a fight compared to other defenses, it wont make you win a fight as it gives your opponent too much time to recover. for short stealth poping in and out those reveal skills are neither needed nor useful and long stealth is pretty weak as such, its basically a self cripple for 1 vs 1 fights to bring too much stealth with you because you could take more usefull stuff.
    why exactly do you need the ability to force a fight upon someone that doesnt want to? do you also ask to remove the invuln at spawns ?
    once engaged in the fight you can cast your sic em, because you will get a target once you get attacked.
    if you really need to try hard force a fight on the stealther any class has the ability to see certain animations related to the skills used to stack stealth and can preassure the stealther in stealth or eventually force him out by letting yourself get hit by a leap/blast. yes thats not a 'ill press this one button and done' solution but keeping long stealth is also not ' activate stealth'-> chill.

    You're not the only person to play the game. Your experience with 'short' stealth is hardly the be all & end all. Its neat that short duration stealths aren't a problem for you; short duration stealths are a concern for many of us in the sheer quantity with which they're utilized on thief and mesmer in particular. (I doubt anyone's going to bring a reveal just to counter a druid or engineer, even if there are unrelated complaints about the former.)

    If a thief or mesmer are chaining stealths to grant a longer duration, they might be trying to leave. (As you've said.) Revealing them won't change the fact they'll be using their mobility to leave, it will simply increase the odds of low stealth/higher mobility professions being able to punish them for engaging and failing to capitalize in the first place. Which is duly needed.

    What is this about "forcing a fight upon someone that doesn't want to"? If its to the point where you're using a reveal utility you're already in a fight. Reveal itself doesn't put you in combat.

    Its neat that you seem to think keeping stealth up is difficult. There are any number of tools, especially with thieves that specialize in shadow arts, that'll allow players to keep stealth up for a good amount of time with minimal effort. Optimal? Probably not, but not hard to accomplish. Leaping through a smoke field over and over again isn't exactly difficult. Yes enemy players see the smoke field, any thief worth their salt utilizes a different tool to enter stealth, moves away from the threat, then replenishes the duration with little issue during that window with which it takes the opposition to notice that field and move to cleave it. Don't even get me started on mesmer.

    If you want me to move away from the 'ill press this one button and done' solution, introduce a lot more revealed options into the game across all professions so they're not so infrequently available and often tied to skills people don't want to use. Revealing someone =/= killing them.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • usnedward.9023usnedward.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Of course some perform better because the player is more skilled vs ranged.,

    This right here. Playing a deadeye (and I openly admit I am FAR FROM being anywhere close to the best) It is skill and knowing how to defend against the deadeye. Should melee also be upset that scourge just wipes them to the ground. I admit I have more success against the Mesmer and Necro since I made the switch to deadeye but when they pair up with another decent player I am on the run. When I jump on my Ranger I will make a deadeye cry but ofc it is ranged against ranged.

    So, when I roam if there are classes roaming in pairs that can take me out on one build I switch to another toon that counters them. Hate getting to the north camp to take out a T3 by myself only to die to a scourge and a warrior.....

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Kovu.7560 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should.

    Sorry, I should've clarified. Those skills are working as intended. They just can't be called "counter play" to stealth when many professions don't have the ability to reveal a stealth-er already in stealth.

    ~ Kovu

    weakness also cannot be applied while the target is evading , it does not prevent evading but still is a counter to it. reveal as an effect once applied is a counter to stealth, the abilities appying reveal tho might not turn you into a hard counter to a stealther. thats like the minstrel guards trying to get my deadeye out of their keep with an anti stealth trap, as if that reveal would kill me if there is noone around to deal damage.

    Yeah. Okay. So allow everyone to have a legitimate reactive counter to stealthers since everyone has to deal with it.
    You're tip-toeing around the point I'm trying to make. Or I'm awful at explaining things, one of the two.
    (If revealed were as prevalent and easy to apply as weakness is in this game we wouldn't be having this conversation.)

    ~ Kovu

    oh its because i dont quite understand why you need a counter to stealthers that remain in stealth. i do see long stealth as means to avoid a fight and rather weak in a fight compared to other defenses, it wont make you win a fight as it gives your opponent too much time to recover. for short stealth poping in and out those reveal skills are neither needed nor useful and long stealth is pretty weak as such, its basically a self cripple for 1 vs 1 fights to bring too much stealth with you because you could take more usefull stuff.
    why exactly do you need the ability to force a fight upon someone that doesnt want to? do you also ask to remove the invuln at spawns ?
    once engaged in the fight you can cast your sic em, because you will get a target once you get attacked.
    if you really need to try hard force a fight on the stealther any class has the ability to see certain animations related to the skills used to stack stealth and can preassure the stealther in stealth or eventually force him out by letting yourself get hit by a leap/blast. yes thats not a 'ill press this one button and done' solution but keeping long stealth is also not ' activate stealth'-> chill.

    You're not the only person to play the game. Your experience with 'short' stealth is hardly the be all & end all. Its neat that short duration stealths aren't a problem for you; short duration stealths are a concern for many of us in the sheer quantity with which they're utilized on thief and mesmer in particular. (I doubt anyone's going to bring a reveal just to counter a druid or engineer, even if there are unrelated complaints about the former.)

    i didnt say short stealth is not an issue, i said they are not worth a reveal.
    what makes a short stealth on thief/mesmer superior to short stealth on druid/engineer? i think revealing to get someone already in stealth out of it, if he is only using short stealth like 3-4 seconds is not really worth it as the main gain of you loosing a target still happend. would you run a reveal skill on your bar without any scondary effects giving up a valuable utility slot or a trait choice? i see many rangers with sic em wich grants either their pet or with soulbeast themselves a huge damage boost, but i rarely see a warrior with on my mark because the secondary effect of a few vuln stacks is not worth it.

    If a thief or mesmer are chaining stealths to grant a longer duration, they might be trying to leave. (As you've said.) Revealing them won't change the fact they'll be using their mobility to leave, it will simply increase the odds of low stealth/higher mobility professions being able to punish them for engaging and failing to capitalize in the first place. Which is duly needed.

    to counter them stealthing away after an attack, your targeted reveal will work as they will get revealed from the attack. you need to use it early enough before they panic. but i might also decide to avoid a fight before the fight started. if i just happen to come across you and lets say 3-4 friends of yours then i will probably think 'not worth fighting as you can just ressurect', so i stealth and try to move past. is there also a need to punish my attempt to get away then? or asking differently under wich circumstances should i be allowed to avoid a fight after being spotted by my opponent(s) either as character or just as skill effect?

    What is this about "forcing a fight upon someone that doesn't want to"? If its to the point where you're using a reveal utility you're already in a fight. Reveal itself doesn't put you in combat.

    i know that the reveal effect doesnt put me in combat, but why would you want to reveal me without fighting me. if i am longer in stealth i am probably trying not to fight because it is pointless at that time for me. if you want options to still get me out of there to kill me, that is asking to force a fight upon me that i do not want. if i build for superior mobility to escape you might get the chance to interrupt my attept to get away, same with many stealth skills/combos they can be interrupted but once you failed to do that, when build for mobility i am gone - why shouldnt that be allowed with stealth?

    Its neat that you seem to think keeping stealth up is difficult. There are any number of tools, especially with thieves that specialize in shadow arts, that'll allow players to keep stealth up for a good amount of time with minimal effort. Optimal? Probably not, but not hard to accomplish. Leaping through a smoke field over and over again isn't exactly difficult. Yes enemy players see the smoke field, any thief worth their salt utilizes a different tool to enter stealth, moves away from the threat, then replenishes the duration with little issue during that window with which it takes the opposition to notice that field and move to cleave it. Don't even get me started on mesmer.

    i didnt say it was difficult, i just said its not 1 button press for permanent stealth but a constant rotation of skills and combos , while 1 aoe reveal would cancel it or alot of buttons to reach those smokefields. it is easy to remain in stealth on an open area, if you fight in a structure that can get a little more difficult depending on space, LoS options and amount of people you want to avoid.
    deadeye has only 1 uninterruptable option to stealth on 40s cd or 32s cd if he gives up the best condi cleanse he has. so he can safely retreat every 32-40 seconds and cannot pop in and out at will, core thief/daredevil got a bit more as steal can also be an option to enter stealth without being interrupted. once that skill is used you are either safe for quite a while or you know he wont get away if he dares to attack. same if i try to escape with mobility and got a teleport/evade move to begin my run - if they are on cd i probably wont get away.

    If you want me to move away from the 'ill press this one button and done' solution, introduce a lot more revealed options into the game across all professions so they're not so infrequently available and often tied to skills people don't want to use. Revealing someone =/= killing them.

    not every class can give themselves unblockable buffs ( especially once that depend on duration and not hits), do we all need them now? because we all face blocks/reflects/absorbs.

    what i still dont get is why do you need alot of revealed options, is a stealthed opponent such a threat to you? people dont want to use revealed skills because in most cases they dont die to the fact that someone is in stealth.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Inoki.6048 said:
    Mesmers are far more dangerous than Deadeyes. You but sneeze on a Deadeye and they die, their mobility and condi cleanse are limited, while Mesmers can stunbreak and endlessly dodge + stealth + evade + invul + cleanse anything. If you want to complain about something, complain about Mesmers, not DEs. They have so many tells to their actions that if you die to one it's merely a L2P issue.

    HA!

    That is indeed a l2p or build issue then. Thieves can easily use hp regen builds that are near impossible to kill (they will always be back at 100% hp after a stealth and have cleansed all condis) or jumping bean perma-evade staff dd that are next to impossible to even get a hit on, perma-stealth teleport de that stun on every steal and then just tp away and stealth, every single time until you die from boredom because there is nothing you can do. Saying complain about mesmers and not des is like saying complain about the rain, not the storm. Either way it's bad weather.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • BMW.2951BMW.2951 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Speaking as a Necro main.
    They are a nightmare.
    I have bias.
    But their endless stealth needs nerf.

    I disagree with deadeye needing a nerf because I hate Necros. I hate how scourges ruined both spvp and wvw with the stupid aoe kitten. Necros is the main reason people are sick of pvp and I enjoy getting on my p/p thief sometimes to completely destroy you guys.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Inoki.6048 said:
    Mesmers are far more dangerous than Deadeyes. You but sneeze on a Deadeye and they die, their mobility and condi cleanse are limited, while Mesmers can stunbreak and endlessly dodge + stealth + evade + invul + cleanse anything. If you want to complain about something, complain about Mesmers, not DEs. They have so many tells to their actions that if you die to one it's merely a L2P issue.

    HA!

    That is indeed a l2p or build issue then. Thieves can easily use hp regen builds that are near impossible to kill (they will always be back at 100% hp after a stealth and have cleansed all condis) or jumping bean perma-evade staff dd that are next to impossible to even get a hit on, perma-stealth teleport de that stun on every steal and then just tp away and stealth, every single time until you die from boredom because there is nothing you can do. Saying complain about mesmers and not des is like saying complain about the rain, not the storm. Either way it's bad weather.

    If their health pool is low enough to manage against health % modifiers then one good stun should let you one shot them. If they're just regenerating a huge health pool with healing stats then they shouldn't be able to do much to you unless you're letting them, it's their time they're wasting, you don't have to make it yours.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @usnedward.9023 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Of course some perform better because the player is more skilled vs ranged.,

    This right here. Playing a deadeye (and I openly admit I am FAR FROM being anywhere close to the best) It is skill and knowing how to defend against the deadeye. Should melee also be upset that scourge just wipes them to the ground. I admit I have more success against the Mesmer and Necro since I made the switch to deadeye but when they pair up with another decent player I am on the run. When I jump on my Ranger I will make a deadeye cry but ofc it is ranged against ranged.

    So, when I roam if there are classes roaming in pairs that can take me out on one build I switch to another toon that counters them. Hate getting to the north camp to take out a T3 by myself only to die to a scourge and a warrior.....

    Except Warrior can facetank Scourge damage most of the time 1v1. I don't mind DE being able to roam better than classes X,Y, and Z, but your statement of, "Hate getting to north camp to take our a T3 by myself only to die to a Scourge AND a warrior......" You should die to a duo given that skills are equal or close to equal. I don't even try to roam on my Scourge anymore. I use Core warrior, SB, Spellbreaker, Burnbrand, or Mesmer and beat Scourge quite often. DE should NEVER lose to a Scourge.

  • usnedward.9023usnedward.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @usnedward.9023 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Of course some perform better because the player is more skilled vs ranged.,

    This right here. Playing a deadeye (and I openly admit I am FAR FROM being anywhere close to the best) It is skill and knowing how to defend against the deadeye. Should melee also be upset that scourge just wipes them to the ground. I admit I have more success against the Mesmer and Necro since I made the switch to deadeye but when they pair up with another decent player I am on the run. When I jump on my Ranger I will make a deadeye cry but ofc it is ranged against ranged.

    So, when I roam if there are classes roaming in pairs that can take me out on one build I switch to another toon that counters them. Hate getting to the north camp to take out a T3 by myself only to die to a scourge and a warrior.....

    Except Warrior can facetank Scourge damage most of the time 1v1. I don't mind DE being able to roam better than classes X,Y, and Z, but your statement of, "Hate getting to north camp to take our a T3 by myself only to die to a Scourge AND a warrior......" You should die to a duo given that skills are equal or close to equal. I don't even try to roam on my Scourge anymore. I use Core warrior, SB, Spellbreaker, Burnbrand, or Mesmer and beat Scourge quite often. DE should NEVER lose to a Scourge.

    Don't get me wrong. I wasn't really complaining about the dying part. What I meant is I get there with my DE only to die and agree I should. I just switch it up to something that has more viability to survive that encounter or in some cases just leave it alone.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    To be honest with you as thief.
    You can nerf stealth all you want a necro is most of the time dead alone vs any thief build.

    None the less I played deadeye perma stealth.
    Very boring it's kitten kitten stupid pve is more fun cus you simply choose to lose as perma stealth deadeye unless you made a fatal error youre gonna win everything.

    I switched very fast to a non stealth deadeye build which was far more fun and challenging but result dmg wise is the same so you as necro would still die.

    You see your necro is kitten in blob gameplay
    Thief is kitten in solo.

    Tho I have always played thief without stealth I always hated to relay on stealth I mean ofcourse I used stealth mid fights but never to reset when I play d/p thief I barely ever use smoke field combo.

    So I couldn't give a rats kitten if they do nerf it.

  • Euryon.9248Euryon.9248 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @intox.6347 said:
    ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem.
    And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def...

    this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game.

    .#thosepeskyfacts

    You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever.

    .#thetruefacts

    not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam.

    This does not help those of us who do not play with sound. I rely on visuals 100%, which is why stealth is impossible for me to combat. I do not hear any audio tells, and "seeing" the shot coming from behind me is impossible. As is targeting a player who constantly pops in and out of stealth. I usually play melee with virtually no AoE (and absolutely none at range), and I almost never get any kind of hit on any kind of stealth-heavy class. I have been playing for 5 years and I have never beaten a thief in a 1v1 because he either kills me or escapes 100% of the time.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Euryon.9248 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @intox.6347 said:
    ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem.
    And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def...

    this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage.
    In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell.
    They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst.
    This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits.

    Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game.

    .#thosepeskyfacts

    You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever.

    .#thetruefacts

    not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam.

    This does not help those of us who do not play with sound. I rely on visuals 100%, which is why stealth is impossible for me to combat. I do not hear any audio tells, and "seeing" the shot coming from behind me is impossible. As is targeting a player who constantly pops in and out of stealth. I usually play melee with virtually no AoE (and absolutely none at range), and I almost never get any kind of hit on any kind of stealth-heavy class. I have been playing for 5 years and I have never beaten a thief in a 1v1 because he either kills me or escapes 100% of the time.

    From behind is only something you can 'see' if the attack os from a Melee class. And not when it is a leap.

    Sound cues are all over. If you are missing them, whether by choice, or because of hearing difficulties, is not a reason to balance.

    Since you play Melee with no AOE (Again, that is a choice) are you saying that because you choose this, you should be able to get a hit on them?

    Somewhat unrelated: I don't run a scourge or a DE in WvW for multiple reasons. But on my light class, DE has killed me maybe... 3-4 times while roaming?

    I don't think for roaming, either is an issue.

    If there was a way to tone down scourge stuff when used as a group, it would be good. Or maybe try tweaking the number of targets.,

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    From behind is only something you can 'see' if the attack os from a Melee class. And not when it is a leap.

    Sound cues are all over. If you are missing them, whether by choice, or because of hearing difficulties, is not a reason to balance.

    Since you play Melee with no AOE (Again, that is a choice) are you saying that because you choose this, you should be able to get a hit on them?

    Somewhat unrelated: I don't run a scourge or a DE in WvW for multiple reasons. But on my light class, DE has killed me maybe... 3-4 times while roaming?

    I don't think for roaming, either is an issue.

    If there was a way to tone down scourge stuff when used as a group, it would be good. Or maybe try tweaking the number of targets.,

    It depends on what you play... if you mostly group-play... then are problems FB+scourge
    If you mostly roam... then problems are mesmers, spellbreakers, soulbeasts, thieves.... depends on which class you play ofc. Why its not deadeye biggest problem ? coz they are not enough.... you just met only few... one weekend we made party from 5 DE, omg that was real paranoia pain for targets... main thing on DE, you cant do s**t unless he attacks you and reveal yourself ...

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    @Euryon.9248 said:
    I have been playing for 5 years and I have never beaten a thief in a 1v1 because he either kills me or escapes 100% of the time.

    Do you think this is a problem with the game itself? Or perhaps just you at this point? Because I assure you that other people playing your chosen profession have beaten, and will continue to beat Thieves 1v1.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @intox.6347 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    From behind is only something you can 'see' if the attack os from a Melee class. And not when it is a leap.

    Sound cues are all over. If you are missing them, whether by choice, or because of hearing difficulties, is not a reason to balance.

    Since you play Melee with no AOE (Again, that is a choice) are you saying that because you choose this, you should be able to get a hit on them?

    Somewhat unrelated: I don't run a scourge or a DE in WvW for multiple reasons. But on my light class, DE has killed me maybe... 3-4 times while roaming?

    I don't think for roaming, either is an issue.

    If there was a way to tone down scourge stuff when used as a group, it would be good. Or maybe try tweaking the number of targets.,

    It depends on what you play... if you mostly group-play... then are problems FB+scourge
    If you mostly roam... then problems are mesmers, spellbreakers, soulbeasts, thieves.... depends on which class you play ofc. Why its not deadeye biggest problem ? coz they are not enough.... you just met only few... one weekend we made party from 5 DE, omg that was real paranoia pain for targets... main thing on DE, you cant do s**t unless he attacks you and reveal yourself ...

    A group of 5 coordinated? Yeah, that's gonna beat most. Not really the issue here.

    I didn't say they couldn't be a problem. A Zerg of only scourges unless their enemy sets up for that, would be deadly.

    Yes, Mesmer, thiefs and warriors (along with druids to a point) dominate solo roaming. They have for a number of years.

    Point I made was even on a non tanky light armor class, DE's have not been a problem.

    There is not a lot of DEs out there for a good reason: People don't understand how to play it, stink at it, OR aren't patient enough for it.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • BMW.2951BMW.2951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Speaking as a Necro main.
    They are a nightmare.
    I have bias.
    But their endless stealth needs nerf.

    The most broken class for zerging is complaining about the most broken class for roaming?

    Ok..

    This x10000000.

    Good post bud.

    It's like... do necros realize they can't do everything? They can mass aoe spam for days and complain about a thief ripping them a new one? Get real. The thief class in mmos have always had the highest burst, good mobility, and invisible spells.... and only for a single target and not 349058345 guys at once.

    You can't win it all Necros! You selfish ******** causing class you.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @BMW.2951 said:

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Speaking as a Necro main.
    They are a nightmare.
    I have bias.
    But their endless stealth needs nerf.

    The most broken class for zerging is complaining about the most broken class for roaming?

    Ok..

    This x10000000.

    Good post bud.

    It's like... do necros realize they can't do everything? They can mass aoe spam for days and complain about a thief ripping them a new one? Get real. The thief class in mmos have always had the highest burst, good mobility, and invisible spells.... and only for a single target and not 349058345 guys at once.

    You can't win it all Necros! You selfish cancer causing class you.

    Not my class so I don't care if it sucks.
    Every class should be viable for a particular mode of play.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    How do you get 3 DE's out of your keep? They rezz each other when we happen to kill one. Their stealth uptime is almost 100%. They have high mobility, high stealth, high dmg and are able to kill the lord if we don't get rid of them. Stealth trap doesn't work, they just restealth. Reveal can easily be removed. They also slot block, and not even the reaper's burst are high enough to kill one on time before they escape. Don't say something like L2p blabla, give me a solution instead. pls. And yes, they do this for longer than 10 hours a day. Any pro tips`?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    How do you get 3 DE's out of your keep? They rezz each other when we happen to kill one. Their stealth uptime is almost 100%. They have high mobility, high stealth, high dmg and are able to kill the lord if we don't get rid of them. Stealth trap doesn't work, they just restealth. Reveal can easily be removed. They also slot block, and not even the reaper's burst are high enough to kill one on time before they escape. Don't say something like L2p blabla, give me a solution instead. pls. And yes, they do this for longer than 10 hours a day. Any pro tips`?

    it is 100% uptime, not almost. you can prevent ressurrecting, but as you are playing against me i dont think i should explain you how. i dont have a block and you often cant kill me when one of the others is down, as i have a secondary rez set so i got over 3,7k armor during rez. i also use that gear when i just want to remain stealthed/alive and dont kill anyone. i only have slotted block when i am on DD build wich i do for some bosses so they are easier to kill.

    now the pro tip is simple. convince the deadeye that they are free to cap it. gank them at lord. we are usually all full berserk so it shouldnt be hard to find a thief/mesmer/engi to quickly stack a few sec stealth and gank. when one is down prevent rez till despawn and then next.
    what you guys are doing instead is camping inner with 15-20 people and thinking that we are going to risk our neck against that .

    i am the charr one of the DEs in your keep, currently in hills on DBL and i see you :D

  • bLind.6278bLind.6278 Member ✭✭✭

    Just nerf Condi thieves in WvW. I honestly dont give a kitten about being 1 shot by a 17k rifle shot from stealth, because at least that's funny.

    There's a 95% chance I'll be warned for this post, regardless of what it says.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    I thought u were the male (human) one from [UGLY]. Out of all, that one was the most skilled DE. Interesting, seems we need 3 gank teams to kill 3 deadeyes on the same time, otherwise you would just rezz again.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    I thought u were the male (human) one from [UGLY]. Out of all, that one was the most skilled DE. Interesting, seems we need 3 gank teams to kill 3 deadeyes on the same time, otherwise you would just rezz again.

    yup that is also one of my thieves , got many thieves. right now i am a charr. the other deadeyes play as human female /asura.
    while i was running human male , i was mostly solo so more focused and more careful, now i am running with a group(and as charr) to teach them solo the lords so i dont need to be careful, because they also need to learn to ressurect under preassure. the others are fairly new to deadeye or thief in general and just learning with my advise.
    you dont need to kill all 3 at the same time, you just need to prevent ressurecting or use the dead body as gankbait, tho as said already i use rez armor now.

    apart from what we do now, i personally dont need the others to flip any structure solo. their presence just makes me get uncareful and might kill me while ressurecting ontop of somehow making you more tryhard to get me out of there. once they are able to kill the lords solo i will run more solo again as it is more efficient and less risky. i will be more carefull again and a carefull deadeye is immortal.

    you need to bait a deadeye to kill him, but you cant bait a carefull deadeye. thats why i often say, you shouldnt put too much preassure in an area if you want to kill the deadeye. like 15 stacked people waiting at a lord - thats not a good deadeye bait, unless the deadeye knows you are that terrible he can still kill someone inside you.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    As far as I read your post, there doesnt seem to be any true counter to DE. I do think it is a problem if a class is immortal. I don't mind if they are just roaming and capping stuff, but honestly, having them inside a keep is another thing. There needs to be some sort of counter to get them. There was a phrase used by a DE streamer: "If I don't want to be killed, then you won't be able to kill me". I think it's kind of true, now double confirmed. I honestly don't think that immortality is a good choice for wvw. This is pretty much ghost thief 2.0, and actually better than ghost thief (IMO).

  • Mil.3562Mil.3562 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    @Fallesafe.5932 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Speaking as a Necro main.
    They are a nightmare.
    I have bias.
    But their endless stealth needs nerf.

    The most broken class for zerging is complaining about the most broken class for roaming?

    Ok..

    Very well said : D
    What about shades spamming scrouges? They are way too OP in WvW and is now the top meta class in WvW zerg. Please fix them. Make their shade ranges to 600 and reduce their aoe radius, in WvW only. Of course.

  • Lexani.6152Lexani.6152 Member ✭✭

    Really? Scourge complaining about deadeye because of range... So play ranger... I play d/p for roaming, should I complain about scourge? And if you are roaming with scourge then you have no right to complain.

    WvW: WSR only good when they focus commander and in gangs. Gandara, cloud of pugs without organization.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only request 1 nerf to thief overall, Basilisk Venon...... to make it 1 hit aoe on cast, of reduce the number of targets from 5 to 1...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    As far as I read your post, there doesnt seem to be any true counter to DE. I do think it is a problem if a class is immortal. I don't mind if they are just roaming and capping stuff, but honestly, having them inside a keep is another thing. There needs to be some sort of counter to get them. There was a phrase used by a DE streamer: "If I don't want to be killed, then you won't be able to kill me". I think it's kind of true, now double confirmed. I honestly don't think that immortality is a good choice for wvw. This is pretty much ghost thief 2.0, and actually better than ghost thief (IMO).

    a deadeye is indeed better than ghost thief as the deadeye has a way higher kill potential, when i am not like 1 vs 20 all day i do get tons of kills as deadeye while on ghost thief you did need an opponent with low condi cleanse or outright terrible one.

    what exactly is it about being immortal that you got an issue with? with any class i can log in, stand in spawn all day and be immortal - i guess you wouldnt have an issue with that. as deadeye to be immortal i am not allowed to fight and ontop should wear defensive stats to avoid being oneshot in stealth. the moment i try to do anything productive, be it killing another player, an npc , a siege weapon or flipping a capture circle in that moment i lose this immortality. because i do need offensive stats/traits to kill any player/npc or a siege weapon in reasonable time and will get revealed doing so , i also need to remain visible while capturing.
    while i am avoiding any possible death, i am as productive as standing in spawn with any class. UNLESS my opponents try to force my death with huge numbers, then i am efficient for binding them, for keeping them busy and i demoralize them, but thats not my doing, that their own fault - they know i can avoid a conflict and want to force one without risking anything.

    i do understand that you dont want to give up a keep just because you got a deadeye there, i really do. but since 1-2 month after HoT release i am doing this hiding in keeps and flipping them , was a bit tricky with anti stealth traps as daredevil tho not impossible with shadow traps. and in all that time only 4-5 times people did what i told you above :

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    now the pro tip is simple. convince the deadeye that they are free to cap it. gank them at lord. we are usually all full berserk so it shouldnt be hard to find a thief/mesmer/engi to quickly stack a few sec stealth and gank.

    just do this. gank me at lord, you dont need to spent hours with me in a keep and rage. thats way more efficient, i will waste more time than you that way and gain nothing for it. tower lords are quick like most of them ~1 minute ( southern ones on DBL take a little longer as they force me to use some defense more frequent while i can AA the others) so for them you really need to be nearby if you want to gank me. but for keep lords i do need 2-3,5 minutes on DBL keeps and 3-5 minutes(RNG respawn times + lord heals :S) on ABL keeps. with iron hide i ofc need way longer. that is plenty of time in keeps to gank me at the lord. you normally send a scout anyway when it is contested and in the time i kill the lord a group could open outer + inner and kill the lord in a paper keep wich is what i am in mostly.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    I see maybe 1 deadeye a week, and even then not for more than an hour.
    Scourges on the other hand. I don't see many roaming, that aren't at least plat rank. However, if you see the enemy force, like last night, the 40 man enemy force is 20+ scourges (not an exaggeration). A handful of firebrands, 1 or 2 chronos and holos, and about that many spellbreakers. LIterally, everyone seems to have shifted to where for every 10 players they field, 6-7 are scourges (various roles obviously).

    I think when you look at wvw as a whole, thief, deadeye in particular, is like 1% of the problem.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    the moment i try to do anything productive, be it killing another player, an npc , a siege weapon or flipping a capture circle in that moment i lose this immortality.

    And that's the issue. You decide if you live or die. This is a PVP mode. Something like this should never exist in any PVP games. It's like pressing the pause button in Dota and everyone can wait and you decide when the game is starting again. It's broken, but in a different way.

    Also, your immortality is reapplied so fast that almost no one can react to. You can appear from ANY side, in a 360 degrees with a range of 1500! It's not like you go melee and one shot them.

    More issue are:
    1. Free scouting (better version of standard scouting). You see what our zerg is doing all the time. Be it building golem, or moving in a certain direction. Scouting in your own structures and scouting in your enemies structure are two entire different things.
    2. Contesting the WP. If you want to, you can make a keep permanently contested. Same issue with ghost thief that received massive complain back then.
    3. You can clear all our sieges without ever being caught. I don't think this requires much skill. Simply appearing where no one is looking=profit. Then you can just tell your zerg that it's free of sieges and they can attack.
    4. It's not fun. No one wants to play against a DE. Almost all roamer avoid fighting one. DE inside a keep forces you to play against one, unless you don't care for the structure. And the strategy you suggest still requires the deadeye to appear. What if the DE plays the role of a scout? Then he will never appear, and you can wait forever.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    Also, your immortality is reapplied so fast that almost no one can react to. You can appear from ANY side, in a 360 degrees with a range of 1500! It's not like you go melee and one shot them.

    depends, against your reaper ofc not. but against some others.. from last week a melee onehit against power mes:

    More issue are:
    1. Free scouting (better version of standard scouting). You see what our zerg is doing all the time. Be it building golem, or moving in a certain direction. Scouting in your own structures and scouting in your enemies structure are two entire different things.

    sry i dont see how that is better. when i am in my structure and see your golem train approach i can fire with siege at it, use taktivators etc. when in your keep i just can say : they left the keep with golems and hope someone is doing the right thing.

    1. Contesting the WP. If you want to, you can make a keep permanently contested. Same issue with ghost thief that received massive complain back then.

    waypoints can be contested by any class that can reach the keep in less than 3 minutes. no need for stealth at all and can even die cause who cares.

    1. You can clear all our sieges without ever being caught. I don't think this requires much skill. Simply appearing where no one is looking=profit. Then you can just tell your zerg that it's free of sieges and they can attack.

    why would you build siege when a deadeye is inside? or how did the deadeye get inside when siege was present before?

    1. It's not fun. No one wants to play against a DE. Almost all roamer avoid fighting one. DE inside a keep forces you to play against one, unless you don't care for the structure. And the strategy you suggest still requires the deadeye to appear. What if the DE plays the role of a scout? Then he will never appear, and you can wait forever.

    actually very few people try to avoid fighting me, most seem quite happy about a freekill when they see me. this might change after a few encounters with me but on first sight..
    yes the strategy i propose is to give the deadeye a reason to appear. if the deadeye is a scout then he will never appear and the only thing he does is give out information wich you can manipulate. like leave garri with golems towards hills- arrive at bay.

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭

    First off, it is a much better scouting. Why? Image you see your enemy building a bunch of golems, trying to rush a structure with massive golems. While they are building it, you tell your zerg beforehand, so they can prepare for it. Usually, golem rush is more or less something that only works when your enemy is not noticing it. Similar to starcraft 2, if you don't know what your enemy is building, you won't be able to counter it effectively. By counter you could counter rush the golems from behind, or prepare a bunch of sieges in your structure. There is so much advantage if you know it beforehand.

    Yes you can contest a keep with any class. But you can do it so much easier with DE, it almost encourage you to do so.

    As far as 3.) goes: Why was it open? Easy. Your zerg attacks, opens it up, and you sneak in. Is that even a question? And you don't get it. You can't build sieges when a deadeye is inside. That alone is pretty OP. A single guy preventing a structure from sieging up, that cannot be removed unless he allow you to. Balanced? no.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    How do you get 3 DE's out of your keep? They rezz each other when we happen to kill one. Their stealth uptime is almost 100%. They have high mobility, high stealth, high dmg and are able to kill the lord if we don't get rid of them. Stealth trap doesn't work, they just restealth. Reveal can easily be removed. They also slot block, and not even the reaper's burst are high enough to kill one on time before they escape. Don't say something like L2p blabla, give me a solution instead. pls. And yes, they do this for longer than 10 hours a day. Any pro tips`?

    you care for your keep? just stay awake on corpse
    you dont care for your keep just run away :)

    id do second one but trust me u bother the thief just as much as he bothers u by staying on his buddie corpse

    if u have enough people u can just put down traps yes he can restealth but no1 said to put traps so darn close to each other.
    you see he wants his buddy.

    so if u plant 2 3 4 w/e amount of traps around him and then infront of that another bunch of traps around him at some point he will be unlucky and manage to reach his friend by stumbling over 2 traps
    or u play class like ranger condi fool and put kitten traps on his buddy body

    tho like i said why even bother man WvW nowadays only matter for spanish and germans the other servers on EU atleast just want fights.
    so unless these thiefs are from DE/SP server they are mentally set to cap this kitten keep if not they are just kitten they could have flipped 20 camps in time they try res each other rack up way more WxP and random kills on enemies.

    tbh if i knock on keep i just do it for enemies to come out couldnt careless for the cap :D

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    so it helps against golems rush if you build them in that keep. again information you can manipulate.

    what about deadeye do you want to change so they cant contest a WP? i mean i would be fine if i could flip that stuff without it being contested.

    if my zerg made it inside, mostly there wont be much siege anymore anyways from before the attack. then use the above strategy to kill the deadeye and resiege, also that dude being on deadeye instead of something usefull for that fight might be the reason that zerg failed in the first place.
    you can place new siege with the deadeye inside if you expect a new attack right after, because then you will be near the siege and can kill the deadeye trying to destroy it.

    but your server is very..special. you have plenty of people who will keep spamming skills around the lord for hours without seeing any sign of my presence. on one day last week i stacked in a corner, watching tv some series on second screen after each episode i went stealthed to the lords room to still see people spamming skills. they didnt even see me go inside. they saw me on cata in inner, killed a defender and when they returned wall was open so they spammed skills for more than 3 hours. ofc for this to have a lasting effect at the end of the 3 hours when a commander of my server attacked that keep (undercroft) i kicked a few of them from inner down at the supply depot into their death so they knew they were right to wait and spamm skills. havent been able to make them leave an objective since when they know i am inside. so i might try to get people looking for me and port out to attack somewhere else this week :D

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2018

    A possible change to address contesting is creating a better contesting in the first place, not changing a class. For keeps with a WP, it have two layers of contesting. First is that structure is getting hit by whatever(like usual) so it goes contested. That one doesn't block the WP. The second layer blocks the WP when siege damage is done to the structure.
    That way, you know there is someone hitting it either from inside or outside. And you can still block the WP with sieges (which is limited by supply for the sneaking deadeyes in case you have more than 1 DE).

    About the manipulation: What if they never notice you being there? Desert borderland keep offers so many places to hide. And lets say you try to manipulate it (In case we know). You tell the zerg beforehand, and we change direction. The thing is, a golem rush is slow in reaching places, even with portals. You can send out scouts to see which direction they take. You have to do it in the first place, because you have more than one T3 structure, so obviously, you need to know their target. Or you can prepare sieges in both keep and bay/whatever. Still high advantages. You don't seem to know too much about golem strategies. Well, your server rarely uses them after all, as far as I know.

    And yeah, it's true that our server is special. I did it on the first time to see if my reaper can kill you. After that, I leave pretty quickly, because it's so boring to chase you guys.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    A possible change to address contesting is creating a better contesting in the first place, not changing a class. For keeps with a WP, it have two layers of contesting. First is that structure is getting hit by whatever(like usual) so it goes contested. That one doesn't block the WP. The second layer blocks the WP when siege damage is done to the structure.
    That way, you know there is someone hitting it either from inside or outside. And you can still block the WP with sieges (which is limited by supply for the sneaking deadeyes in case you have more than 1 DE).

    thats cool but again that is not deadeye exclusive, dont get why you need to mention such an issue in a deadeye threat when there is currently another about contested waypoints active.

    About the manipulation: What if they never notice you being there? Desert borderland keep offers so many places to hide. And lets say you try to manipulate it (In case we know). You tell the zerg beforehand, and we change direction. The thing is, a golem rush is slow in reaching places, even with portals. You can send out scouts to see which direction they take. You have to do it in the first place, because you have more than one T3 structure, so obviously, you need to know their target. Or you can prepare sieges in both keep and bay/whatever. Still high advantages. You don't seem to know too much about golem strategies. Well, your server rarely uses them after all, as far as I know.

    if you dont even know that i am in there, you probably wont guard the lord so why would i try to scout there if i can just flip it?

    • you dont need to build the golems in the keep, you only need the keep supplies maybe. therefor the scout doesnt even have to know what you are doing with the supply and where.
    • portals are not really efficient in speeding up golems, better use your mesmers for maximum quickness uptime at the keep you want to take and move the golems with superspeed (not hard to maintain perma superspeed on a golem army) with superspeed on golems they are nearly as fast as your walking zerg.

    we rarely use them if we got numbers as most of our people are bad golem drivers, but in off primetime for PvD we use them a little more frequent. just when PvD usually the 'opponents' dont see us using them :D

  • Kirnale.5914Kirnale.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2018

    I mentioned contesting because it's something you can do as part of a multitasking as DE inside a keep. It is everyones issue, it is a bigger issue if you can do it so easily, while you can scout, while you can still kill the lord. It's too effective to be called balanced.

    On the other thing you mentioned: You can't flip it because the place is flooded with people building the golems. They will notice the contesting, and start searching everywhere. U will never have time to flip it while golems are being built.

    First point is wrong. You know it. When a zerg suddenly use up so much supplies, you know they prepare a golem rush. A com would never take out so much supplies, they usually leave at least half of it and resupply elsewhere (tower for ex.).
    Also, superspeed part is true, but it depends on how you do the golem rush. You won't be able to supply a 40 golem rush with superspeed. On paper, it works, practically, it doesn't. You always have too many people not listen, so they won't be much of a help. And not everyone can play the class that can supply superspeed (they still need to fight inside the keep). Also, you need a high amount of golems, so you can get into the lord room before the enemy zerg arrives.

  • EMTDJ.9042EMTDJ.9042 Member ✭✭

    Hold up... wait a second... are scourges, the most op class in the game, complaining about someone being able to down them? Really? This is a thing? The amount of land you can cover at one time is ridiculous as a scourge and take down plenty of enemies. The last thing you should be worried about is a single target class.. just saying.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2018

    @Kirnale.5914 said:
    On the other thing you mentioned: You can't flip it because the place is flooded with people building the golems. They will notice the contesting, and start searching everywhere. U will never have time to flip it while golems are being built.

    for you to come inside and build those without noticing that i am inside, i must be inside for quite a while without any notice. guess you would see open walls/gates or a marker on the map. therefor plenty of time to flip.

    First point is wrong. You know it. When a zerg suddenly use up so much supplies, you know they prepare a golem rush. A com would never take out so much supplies, they usually leave at least half of it and resupply elsewhere (tower for ex.).

    i know that our commanders usually say like 'take supplies till 600' -> supplies drop to 200. ofc you can only use many supplies for building golems. i dont need to be in your keep to see the supply drop and contesting the keep.

    Also, superspeed part is true, but it depends on how you do the golem rush. You won't be able to supply a 40 golem rush with superspeed. On paper, it works, practically, it doesn't. You always have too many people not listen, so they won't be much of a help. And not everyone can play the class that can supply superspeed (they still need to fight inside the keep). Also, you need a high amount of golems, so you can get into the lord room before the enemy zerg arrives.

    superspeed is easier with people not listening than portals imo as there will allways be golems not taking the portals, 40 people in a golem is already going to kill you in a zerg fight against a zerg of similar size, so it doesnt matter if the others cant play their class.

    all in all i dont really think this topic is a big issue in WvW as there are not many deadeyes of this sort, therefor i doubt anything will be done quickly about it. i can only give you the best strategy to kill such a thief. using it you might kill me with less effort but also risk losing the structure, all in all more fun for both sides - but you guys choose to stall the fight by not giving me a chance to flip but as you dont kill me and i often bind a few people , its still efficient to wait. but also exhausting and unfun for both. so you basically you guys press the pause button and choose when something is going to happen. its your keep you can come back when you die, i cant so dont expect me to risk more than you.

  • A scourge complaining about balance...yikes

  • Basharic.1654Basharic.1654 Member ✭✭
    edited April 24, 2018

    There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

    Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Basharic.1654 said:
    There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

    Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

    Already quite a bit of Counterplay, the Majority of Classes have Access to Reveal Skills, WvW keeps/towers have mechanics to show on map the location of anyone even Stealthed opponents, there are Reveal Traps that can be laid accessible to everyone in WvW.... just saying, most issues boil down to L2P

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2018

    @Basharic.1654 said:
    There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

    Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

    Pretty much anything I can do to you has a sound or giveaway to it. If I'm not being put in stealth then it has to be called something else, so you can suggest we take stealth out of the game and put something else in it's place. You'll also need elaborate on what's going to go in it's place since most stuff in this game can one or two shot me if my build is going to kill anything. Don't suggest giving yourself an obvious advantage and try to dress it up as "counter play".

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2018

    @Basharic.1654 said:
    There is already an simple fix for stealth, but for some reason Anet refuses to be smart and steal it from other games: Stop making stealthed characters completely undetectable. For example, World of Warcraft has real perma-stealth, but you can't walk over someone and go undetected. If a player happens to be facing a stealthed enemy they will hear a specific sound and briefly see an outline. WoW even had stats for some minor manipulation of that detection distance.

    Putting that in this game would provide at least some possible counterplay to the mechanic other than "start wildly AOEing", "grab your ankles and kiss your butt goodbye", or "run away!" Even vs DE with their range you could at least start hunting the sneaky monkey, and you'd have some means to pressure them. That's all anyone really needs to counterplay stealth: A reasonable chance for a competent player to turn the tables using skillful gameplay.

    WoW has a diffrent combat system, i dont think copying parts of it into this one is a good idea. real perma stealth for example has the advantage, that you are not vulnerable in stacking the stealth effects. in gw2 the stacking process is one of the things you can use against the stealther, in WoW its other detection options.

    a competent player has a reasonable chance to kill a stealth heavy player, if both engage in a fight. but you want a counter to someones ability to avoid a fight, once i attack you i will be visible and you will have a chance to kill me without randomly spamming AoE. but if i do not want to fight you, instead remain in stealth, why do you need more options to deny that?
    i dont have issues getting other stealthers out of stealth and killing them, because there are options to preassure their stealth stacking. just play it yourself and you will quickly realize what is preassuring you.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm just hoping anet understands the skill level of people who will stack 50+ scourges and not the one player who is a very good player skill wise not being killed by 50+ zombies.

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