[PoF Spoilers] Succession of gods and their predecessors — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[PoF Spoilers] Succession of gods and their predecessors

Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

Path of Fire brought the subject of ascension to Godhood back to the forefront. Kormir more or less confirmed someone had taken up the divinity stripped from Balthazar, and they have held his power for some time if Balth was chained in the mists for as long as it seemed.

Obviously there’s not much for us to speculate off who it could possibly be, but I’m always interested to hear theories. Which characters in existing canon do you think the writers could mine? Do you think they’ll pull a fast one and reveal the new god is not human?

I think Gwen would be the most poignant choice, but her history is fairly well documented. I wonder if a mortal must still be alive to ascend to godhood, or if divinity can be infused into their spirits.

I could also see Melonni, or perhaps one of the original GW1 Henchmen, like Brother Mhenlo. I suppose Menzies is also a candidate, but being Balthazar’s evil brother (and having a terrible name to boot) I doubt the gods would find him a worthy vessel lol.

Do you think this “new god” plot will ever pay off and find its way into the story of GW2, or do you think the gods are really never coming back?

On the subject of Predecessors (as Abbadon preceded Kormir, Dhuum preceded Grenth) I have been wondering about this mysterious predecessor of Abbadon hinted way back in GW1. You can find the conversation linked under the “former” God’s section on the Six’s wiki page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

My friend was searching the wiki and found this: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Arachnia seems like the perfect predecessor to Abbadon, but I wonder if this kind of thing will ever be confirmed or come into play plot wise in GW2.

Comments

  • My guess would be the GW1 PC if they do make them canon, would explain why they was never around to help Koss, livia , ascalon etc. They did get a boon from the same time as Kormir got her gift.

    Kormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."
    player name: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."
    player name: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."
    Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."
    Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."
    Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."
    Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."
    Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."
    Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."
    Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."
    Lyssa's Muse: "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift."
    Lyssa's Muse: "This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make."
    Kormir: "Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?"
    player name: "The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make."
    Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

    ( https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Madness )

    Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

    I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

    So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

    As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

    Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

    Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

    I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

    So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

    As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

    Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

    Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

    I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

    So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

    As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

    Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

    Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story). Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 It's also possible that's there's been some kind of rift with the two aspects of Lyssa - Lyss and Ilya could be at odds with one another, somehow, with one having helped Balthazar while the other hindered (or left). I do like the theory that Lady Anise and Queen Jennah are the aspects of Lyssa in disguise. It's the only way their ridiculous level of power makes sense, imo.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    If they haven't chosen a successor for Balthazar already then I hope it comes up as a story point given that situation is far more interesting than the dragons. ArenaNet seem to have a habit of making the plots they personally don't want to explore more interesting than any of the other options.

    But if a successor is chosen, I'd like to see a different take on 'war' and 'conflict', or rather, the original take on it that Balthazar was supposed to represent before he got hit with the villain bat. Similar to how the God of Secrets was succeeded by the God of Truth. Perhaps the God of War can be succeeded by the God of... Who knows? Protection? God of Protection, the Guardian, insert plethora of titles here.

    War is not nice, but it is necessary to protect yourself, your family and your friends. Fighting to defend yourself is no sin, fighting against world ending threats certainly isn't either. A God that represents that side of War rather than the bloody-minded slaughter that Path of Fire Balthazar went for would be nice.

    It'd also be another example of the Gods tending to clean up their house when one of them acts up: See replacing Abbadon with Kormir, Dhuum with Grenth etc. Each one vastly preferable to the one before them.

  • Torn Fierceslash.6375Torn Fierceslash.6375 Member ✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

    i mean back in GW1 missions she was the only one talking, maybe the other gods didn't care back then and she acted on her own or game design wise might of been cheaper to hire one voice actor back the. I also doubt she is in GW2 right now only evidence she was in the world is a Mirror that Balth had and he could of gotten it from the Mists.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

    There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

    We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

    TBH, there was no real hints to "six dragons - six gods plot" ever. I mean, we only learned of a sixth dragon with the initial release and it was in the initial release that any correlation between the gods and dragons on a one to one scale got massively debunked in Orr.

    Mordremoth's existence was never really counteracted or subtle either, unless you're referring to the sylvari reveal in which tbh, people came to the right conclusion for all the wrong reasons.

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

    There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

    We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

    Mordremoth's existence was never really counteracted or subtle either, unless you're referring to the sylvari reveal in which tbh, people came to the right conclusion for all the wrong reasons.

    You misread my post: I only referred to the latter two events, as evident by the word both (and the fact that I don’t count the LS as the main story because its "temporary" even when still buyable). Also "only three things" is more than we ever had hints at Mordremoth. I count more or less two hints at Mordremoth, if you want to count them as separate: COE (Subject alphas attack name) and the complex around it suggesting a plant dragon. They could have easily swept that under the rug if they wanted, like they did with Arachnia in GW1.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

    TBH, there was no real hints to "six dragons - six gods plot" ever. I mean, we only learned of a sixth dragon with the initial release and it was in the initial release that any correlation between the gods and dragons on a one to one scale got massively debunked in Orr.

    As with the Mordremoth theory, which had near zero hints but a good logical foundation in that it could be true (it is not necessarily for the plot and could be effortlessly dropped, but also nothing goes against the theory, directly contradicting it), the 6/6 theory also had a solid foundation for the longest time of gw2. It was really not that bad. I personally never agreed with the pairings, but that’s also because they had a lot of options. Take my old best guesses for an example:

    Balthazar/Primordus
    Melandru/Mordremoth
    Dwayna/Kralkatorik
    Zhaitan/Dhuum/Grenth
    Jormag/Lyssa
    Abaddon/Kormir/DSD

    To reuse an old explanation of mine:

    "First we have the Balthazar, who seems to be connected to Primordus. Both are quite fiery in nature and share a wish for destruction. You may argue that Balthazar does simply favour fair battles as seen with the Zaishen, but don't forget he is also the god of war - and war is neither fair nor glorious. Not much is known about Primordus, but it seems to simply battle for the sake of destruction itself, what could be interpreted as a twisted mentality of Balthazar. Primordus also creates mockeries of living creatures out of lava, using them as soldiers, while Balthasar always seemed to treat living (or dead, but feeling) fighters with respect and savour their passion, something Primordus creations lack obviously.

    Second in line is Melandru who is linked to Mordremoth. Both share the whole nature theme, being rather plant like in appearance but existing behind it, as nature in Melandru's case or as a being in the dream. I would argue that all of Tyria's nature is Melandrus body and her appearance in old Arah was simply an avatar to her, as Mordremoths head is in Dragons stand. (This may even be supported by the fact that when Abaddon attacked the gods, only two seemed to be physically present at the time, trying to fight back but not standing a chance until the other deities arrived and together beat Abaddon.)

    Next is Dwayna who is linked to Kralkatorik. Both dragon and goddess rule over air and lightning. It is noteworthy that both share contrasting motherly features, caring about their "children". Dwayna brought humanity to Tyria and is depicted as loving and forgiving, while Kralkatorik was so angered by Glint's betrayal, that its first action after awakening was to kill its offspring. Let's not forget that while Dwayna is not commonly associated with crystals, the Jade Wind Shiro unleashed upon Cantha was empowered by a twisted prayer to Dwayna, also somehow connecting this aspect of dragon and deity.

    Zhaitan is connected to Dhuum and Grenth, all three beings of death. They all share different opinions on death: Dhuum promises the ultimate end, Grenth simply judges the dead and grants necromancers a few favours, while Zhaitan seems to fear death and promises its minions eternal life. All three also share an important position: Zhaitan wants to be the king of the risen, Grenth is the judge of the dead and as such the highest instance of the normal afterlife and Dhuum once ruled the underworld as an unforgiving sovereign. All three also experience defeat: Zhaitan is ultimately killed, Dhuum is imprisoned and Grenth still loses to Dhuums forces who threaten to break through the mists into Tyria, for example the god lost swamps. Minor fact: It is said that Zhaitan is also connected to shadows, with Dhuum having black smoke evaporating out of his robes. They all are antithesis to each other: Zhaitan views death as terrible and fears it, trying to evade it at all cost, while Grenth teaches that death may be inevitable but nothing to fear as he will judge fairly and Dhuum may as well tell us the truth when he is referring to himself as (an avatar of) death itself, promising a different form of justice in making all the same in death.

    Jormag is connected to Lyssa. Lyssa is often depicted as the deity of mind and thoughts, while Jormag corrupts the mind of its pray. Lyssa is also linked to water or more likely the ever-changing reflections of it, while Jormag is associated with ice, which makes brilliant mirrors but is never changing. Water is also linked with life, being essential to survive, while ice and snow is commonly associated with death. Lyssa teaches to love each other and see behind the mere appearance, while Jormag preaches of power before all else. Lyssa's stories especially depict the deity as caring and showing people that it is good to take pity and help, while Jormag actively persuades a cruel survival of the fittest. While Lyssa confuses the eyes with cloaking illusions, Jormag is a blinding snowstorm. Through nobody knows Lyssa's gender for sure, or even if they are one or two, they are commonly addressed as female, while the sons of Jormag are highly misogynistic, going as far as killing female icebrood, while Lyssa again teaches to respect and love each other and to look behind external differences. Another minor fact: There exist a number of abandoned shrines in GW1, each dedicated to one of the gods. Lyssa's shrine is located in an icy cave in the mineral springs. This is also the only place for ice-dragon swords to drop, which are known in GW2 as Jormag's Breath. It is also interesting that Lyssa is the patron deity of mesmers and such chronomancers, who sometimes temper with time as several skills suggest. (No, I don’t buy the lame explanation that CS is just an advanced clone.) Jormags element in is purest form would probably be sheer cold, as in zero Kelvin, meaning absolute still stand, probably the closest you can get to stopping time.

    Abaddon, god of secrets and the (watery) depths, linked to the most secret sea dragon: Bubbles. (Since we don’t know much about it I can't really say much here, I will simply fill this place with something else: It is interesting to note that Abaddon and Lyssa seemed to share a grudge with each other, as Nightfall hinted. The breaking of Abaddon's seal entailed the destruction of Lyssa's floating temple, while Lyssa was the deity most concerned about Abaddon and even the one giving the players words of courage before the last battle, despite Dwayna's (leader of the 5 gods) Avatar being present. There is also the Abaddon temple in gw2 with illusions appearing. That could mean that maybe Bubbles will have a conflict with Jormag in the future. But that’s less then just a mere guess to fill up some space.) This is quite a weak pair with Kormir, but since we don’t know anything about the dragon, I will take it. "

    Sure, by now we know that the human deities are not connected to the dragons from a "scientific" or Tyrian standpoint, but they often mirror each other and seemed connected from a writer's point of view. It may have been planned to connect the pairs at one point, like Mordremoth was planned, but contrary to our jungle dragon this theory was dropped in the later development. Does that make the theory itself bad? No, it doesn’t. It merely shows how the outlines of the story changes with the writers plans for it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

    There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

    We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

    This was intentional, I remember seeing the devs comment on this in one of the AMA, I’ll try to find the source.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    You misread my post: I only referred to the latter two events, as evident by the word both (and the fact that I don’t count the LS as the main story because its "temporary" even when still buyable). Also "only three things" is more than we ever had hints at Mordremoth. I count more or less two hints at Mordremoth, if you want to count them as separate: COE (Subject alphas attack name) and the complex around it suggesting a plant dragon. They could have easily swept that under the rug if they wanted, like they did with Arachnia in GW1.

    >

    [...]

    As with the Mordremoth theory, which had near zero hints but a good logical foundation in that it could be true (it is not necessarily for the plot and could be effortlessly dropped, but also nothing goes against the theory, directly contradicting it), the 6/6 theory also had a solid foundation for the longest time of gw2. It was really not that bad. I personally never agreed with the pairings, but that’s also because they had a lot of options. Take my old best guesses for an example:

    Mordremoth's existence was outright stated and his name outright given in a fairly direct (if hidden in the latter) manner. Not sure where "near zero hints but a good logical foundation" comes in there. The only questionable thing was Mordremoth's domains. Sure, two is fewer than three, but those aren't hints.

    This is vastly different than something that literally had nothing in the game ever hinting towards a relation. People created that whole "six dragons for six gods" theory simply because both groups had six. There wasn't anyone thinking there was much of a relation before we learned there were six dragons. And even when we had no clue what Mordremoth's domain was, folks were trying to connect them.

    Your attempt is by far the best I've seen but it's still making more stretches than a pilates class. And that's nothing even remotely close to "Mordremoth exists".

    Not that it really matters in the end. But Mordremoth's existence was never in question.

    If you mean the sylvari are dragon minions, though, then we literally had one actual hint - Experimental Lab Green in CoE explorable. Everything that folks had used for their theorycrafting were actually wrong (such as the belief that the binary of the Zone Green golem translated to "Pale Tree" when it was actually a common code for "End Transmission") or held no relevance in the end (such as using Glint to explain why the Pale Tree could rebel due to Ventari, or the Dream being a hive mind - at least in the manner they suspected). We only had facts that hinted against it. Hence why sylvari are rather contradictive to other dragon minions (this was no doubt a result of ArenaNet trying too hard to keep the reveal a secret, and they've had to go back on this by saying "sylvari are unique among dragon minions in more ways than their free will").

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Mordremoth's existence was outright stated and his name outright given in a fairly direct (if hidden in the latter) manner.

    Oh, it appears I have forgotten that NPC. Makes at best three hints in total now.

    Not sure where "near zero hints but a good logical foundation" comes in there. The only questionable thing was Mordremoth's domains. Sure, two is fewer than three, but those aren't hints.

    Yes, they are exactly that: Hints. Sorry, but I don’t see anything in them that makes them definite proof. Which is exactly why I would not agree with this here:

    Not that it really matters in the end. But Mordremoth's existence was never in question.

    The hints at launch time were nothing anet couldn’t have simply ignored later on. Especially since the number of hints were anything but overwhelming. If anet had decided against the Mordremoth plot, they could have ignored it the same way they have ignored other open ends (or lots of lore irregularities for that matter, the infinity ball and Malyck come immediately to mind, and I am sure these are not even the best examples). As long as the number of hints is small enough, there is no reason to know for certain that anet will follow through with it. That’s basically the argument you made yourself against Lyssa in an earlier post, so I am surprised you were so certain on that front while twisting the argument into fitting the other side here.

    This is vastly different than something that literally had nothing in the game ever hinting towards a relation. People created that whole "six dragons for six gods" theory simply because both groups had six.

    Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each other, were often even compared in terms of strength by the devs and share a lot of symmetries, as mentioned above. I now remember that even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference. Being a charr, she could have simply missed the human gods as an obvious answer, making her into a twist of an "the cloudcuckoolander was right" scenario, a rather common trope in video games. The best theories are most often not based on ingame knowledge but around being able to make an educated guess at what the writers could use as a plot twist when the time comes. And there were many clues supporting the theory at launch, which is why it got so popular to begin with.

    There wasn't anyone thinking there was much of a relation before we learned there were six dragons. And even when we had no clue what Mordremoth's domain was, folks were trying to connect them.

    I am not saying that people didn’t get overly excited by it. I don’t even want to defend most of the pairings. But the fact that so many people jumped on the train itself was a sign that many people thought that it might be a realistic plan for the story that anet would try to push later on. And after seeing what they have done with the story lately, I can only agree with them on the fact that even the wildest ideas that may or may not directly contradict logical reasoning are acceptable as plot twists for anet writers and as such also fair game for theories. That included the 6 gods/6 dragons-theory in the past and "Lyssa will show up later" now. The latter one at least has a more solid back up that would be harder to retcon than the "there are 6 dragons" lore bit, which was more or less one single NPC and the name of an attack at release. And look how far they went with those few hints.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each other

    Except they don't unless you massively cherry pick certain aspects of each, while ignoring the others. For example
    -Primordus = Fire = Balthazar
    -Jormarg = Ice = Grenth
    -Zhaitan = Death = Grenth
    -Mordremoth = plants = Melandru
    -Kralkatorik = lightning = Dwayna
    -Bubbles = water = Lyssa
    And then there is none for Kormir, and two for Grenth.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Path of Fire brought the subject of ascension to Godhood back to the forefront. Kormir more or less confirmed someone had taken up the divinity stripped from Balthazar, and they have held his power for some time if Balth was chained in the mists for as long as it seemed.

    Obviously there’s not much for us to speculate off who it could possibly be, but I’m always interested to hear theories. Which characters in existing canon do you think the writers could mine? Do you think they’ll pull a fast one and reveal the new god is not human?

    I think Gwen would be the most poignant choice, but her history is fairly well documented. I wonder if a mortal must still be alive to ascend to godhood, or if divinity can be infused into their spirits.

    I could also see Melonni, or perhaps one of the original GW1 Henchmen, like Brother Mhenlo. I suppose Menzies is also a candidate, but being Balthazar’s evil brother (and having a terrible name to boot) I doubt the gods would find him a worthy vessel lol.

    Do you think this “new god” plot will ever pay off and find its way into the story of GW2, or do you think the gods are really never coming back?

    On the subject of Predecessors (as Abbadon preceded Kormir, Dhuum preceded Grenth) I have been wondering about this mysterious predecessor of Abbadon hinted way back in GW1. You can find the conversation linked under the “former” God’s section on the Six’s wiki page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

    My friend was searching the wiki and found this: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

    Arachnia seems like the perfect predecessor to Abbadon, but I wonder if this kind of thing will ever be confirmed or come into play plot wise in GW2.

    I think Menzies was killed during his battle against Balthazar in Fissure of Woe.

    Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially the god of war.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Yes, they are exactly that: Hints. Sorry, but I don’t see anything in them that makes them definite proof. Which is exactly why I would not agree with this here:

    I'm sorry, but how exactly is an NPC explicitly stating that there were five races that fought six Elder Dragons something that is not definite proof?

    Or [this NPC which mentions a sextet of Elder Dragons. I'm sure there were other NPCs that stated "there are six Elder Dragons" before Season 2 as well.

    The existence of Mordremoth was never in question since core release. Nor was its domain of plants, due to Crucible of Eternity and this old interview which explicitly mentioned vegetation as an Elder Dragon's domain.

    The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each other, were often even compared in terms of strength by the devs and share a lot of symmetries, as mentioned above. I now remember that even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference. Being a charr, she could have simply missed the human gods as an obvious answer, making her into a twist of an "the cloudcuckoolander was right" scenario, a rather common trope in video games.

    Except that they don't line up after the first few. You have to make some kitten big stretches, a lot of speculation, and ignoring various facts to make them "line up perfectly". This is why every debate about it fell short fast. And because the discussions on the matter fell short very fast but kept getting brought up is no doubt why ArenaNet added that book reference to it.

    Your arguments for example:

    • Connects Lyssa's very minor domain of water via reflections to Jormag's Ice because "ice reflects too" even though Jormag's black and blue ice doesn't really reflect. One massive stretch there.
    • Connects Dwayna and Kralkatorrik because "air" even though Kralkatorrik's domain of sky is pure speculation still, and ignores Kralkatorrik's crystals.
    • Ignores Mordremoth's domain of mind, while simulously ignoring that Melandru's tie to nature is both flora and fauna while Mordremoth's domain of plant is just flora.
    • Assumes that just because the DSD is Anet's best kept draconic secret that in lore it is tied to knowledge and secrets. You (and everyone else that doesn't try connecting it to Lyssa because water) literally just tact it on at the end because it doesn't fit anywhere else.
    • Ignores Balthazar's war, Dwayna's life, Lyssa's illusion and/or beauty, Melandru's earth, Grenth's ice (and Dhuum's lack of), Kormir's spirit/order.

    You cherrypick one of two or three domains the gods/dragons have, even though the other domain(s) would match another dragon/god better, and you don't even take the primary domain (life, death, war, beauty, nature, knowledge for the gods; fire, crystal, ice, death, plant, and unknown, water most likely, for the dragons) half the time. Heck, as stated, for Lyssa, you take the least associated attribute of hers.

    And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially the god of war.

    That's highly unlikely otherwise they would have done that to Abaddon instead of waiting 1,000 years for him to go even more insane and vengeful to replace him with a mortal. And they probably would have done the same to Dhuum in all honesty.

    If the gods could suddenly take another gods' power or even divide it among them, then they retroactively open up massive plotholes with the entirety of GW1's storyline.

  • Nikolai.3648Nikolai.3648 Member ✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

    The most important thing that was unclear was not if it was dormant or not – it was if the writers would decide to give it the spotlight. Which is my main argument that you entirely ignore. It doesn’t matter if some NPC speculate that there may be 6 elder dragons, 5 or even more, as it was sometimes speculated based on the change in the stars and the high number of stars in the night sky. If the writers would have decided against it, Mordremoth would have been forced to chill out with Arachnia.

    Except that they don't line up after the first few.

    I may have worded that a little bit too strong. Let's rephrase it like this: There are more then enough symmetries and antithesis going on between gods and dragons which could have been picked up by the writers and fleshed out into a base for the further story if the writers would have decided to walk that path. It doesn't matter if they don’t add up 100%, I would go as far and say that it would be stupid for the writers to have done such a thing at that point, because it would have more or less forced them to go through with it, which is something you should never do from a writers point of view if you work on a game like Guild Wars.

    • Connects Dwayna and Kralkatorrik because "air" even though Kralkatorrik's domain of sky is pure speculation still, and ignores Kralkatorrik's crystals.

    The argument I just made above this quote is also why I am not going to defend an old theory of mine. I shall however point out that I did mention the aspect of crystals. You could of course speculate further that lighting strikes cause natural crystal/glass-growth, but I don’t think that is necessary and I don’t plan to waste much time on my old speculation.

    And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.

    I also mentioned the fact that Trueclaw did not mention the dragons. And gave an explanation. Maybe you should reread my post?

    Most importantly you ignored the core problem: You try to make the Lyssa theory sound like a baseless assumption based on few vague hints. You ignore however that the Mordremoth-theory, which you depict as set into stone, was also based on rather few hints that were (contrary to Lyssa) not even set in the main story. This sounds like hypocrisy to me. And while the 6/6-theory may be a whole different matter, you are still ignoring the fact that a theory which is not based on ingame clues but rather meta knowledge is still just as valid. I will repeat myself: The only difference between the Mordremoth-theory and the 6/6-speculations was the writers decision to pull through with one of them while sweeping the other one under the ruck. Neither the number of hints ingame, nor the number of theories outside of it played any role in it. You try to make it sound like one theory was somehow of an higher quality and such more likely to turn out true. But again, this is false. I will repeat some of the essence of my last post: We have seen that anet writers are not unpredictable from a meta perspective and oftentimes don’t care about lore consistency. As such the quality of a theory should be based on its ability to explain why the writers made certain decisions from a plot planners pov. While the number of hints given ingame should not be ignored, it is far more important how easily they could have later on been brushed aside, trimmed, or fleshed out into a deeper story. The 6/6-speculations are a prime example of one such theory. It gives the writers enough free way to basically act anyway they like or ignore it completely if they desire to go against it (which they did). As such it was a solid theory and, in my opinion, did not deserved to even being made fun of in a book ingame.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially the god of war.

    That's highly unlikely otherwise they would have done that to Abaddon instead of waiting 1,000 years for him to go even more insane and vengeful to replace him with a mortal. And they probably would have done the same to Dhuum in all honesty.

    If the gods could suddenly take another gods' power or even divide it among them, then they retroactively open up massive plotholes with the entirety of GW1's storyline.

    At least on this we seem to agree.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    This is getting off topic. This thread is for discussing ascension/descension to and from godhood, not about the Six’s possible connection to the dragons.

    If you want to chat about that I suggest making a new thread.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

    The most important thing that was unclear was not if it was dormant or not – it was if the writers would decide to give it the spotlight. Which is my main argument that you entirely ignore. It doesn’t matter if some NPC speculate that there may be 6 elder dragons, 5 or even more, as it was sometimes speculated based on the change in the stars and the high number of stars in the night sky. If the writers would have decided against it, Mordremoth would have been forced to chill out with Arachnia.

    Except you never said anything about "whether Mordremoth would be used or not". You said "Mordremoth was questionable". You gave zero context, and I mentioned that lack of context right off the bat, and went into the two most common discussions about Mordremoth (its existence, and its ties to sylvari). It was never really wondered by players if Mordremoth would be used, because most players just assumed it was a question of "when" not "if" since we were still so early in the game's life.

    And the number of Elder Dragons was never speculated by NPCs, only players prior to the game's release (well, I think there were still theories of a "seventh Elder Dragon" floating about until we witnessed The All). That thing about stars? That was regarding their waking cycle, not their numbers.

    There was never a "Mordremoth-theory" which was solely "will Mordremoth become a threat / story element?" but rather about its placement in the lore.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.


    I also mentioned the fact that Trueclaw did not mention the dragons. And gave an explanation. Maybe you should reread my post?

    "even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference."

    My point being that she doesn't muse any number difference. And in all I can recall, no one ever brought up a "number difference by Trueclaw" as an argument for relating the Elder Dragons to Six Gods except for one person who thought she meant five dragons against six somethings, due to not knowing the orders-relevant dialogue where Trueclaw specified five races.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    Most importantly you ignored the core problem: You try to make the Lyssa theory sound like a baseless assumption based on few vague hints. You ignore however that the Mordremoth-theory, which you depict as set into stone, was also based on rather few hints that were (contrary to Lyssa) not even set in the main story. This sounds like hypocrisy to me. And while the 6/6-theory may be a whole different matter, you are still ignoring the fact that a theory which is not based on ingame clues but rather meta knowledge is still just as valid.

    I would indeed argue that the comments on Lyssa are pretty vague and have a multiple set of meanings. Hell, I gave an alternative take on the comments in my very second post in this thread, and had given more the first time it got discussed shortly after PoF's release. Mordremoth's existence, however, was indeed never in question. Mordremoth's ties to sylvari was, however, in question and only vaguely hinted.

    Your "Mordremoth-theory" which was "will Mordremoth become a plot in the future" is an entirely different matter, and prior to the Season 1 finale, would indeed have been a questionable thing - even if the question was "when" rather than "if".

    And for the record, I never said the dragon-god theory isn't valid due to the source of inspiration, but rather it isn't valid because it falls apart once you get past the halfway point no matter how one tries to explain it.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I will repeat myself: The only difference between the Mordremoth-theory and the 6/6-speculations was the writers decision to pull through with one of them while sweeping the other one under the ruck. Neither the number of hints ingame, nor the number of theories outside of it played any role in it. You try to make it sound like one theory was somehow of an higher quality and such more likely to turn out true. But again, this is false.

    The difference, actually, exists in the fact that the dragon-god theory became convoluted in its attempts to make it work. Meanwhile, Mordremoth's existence was proven from the get go. The Mordremoth-sylvari connection theory, I have long stated, was pretty unlikely due to the presented evidence, much like the dragon-god theory, but unlike the dragon-god theory it was never truly self-contradicting. It merely lacked proper support.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    As such the quality of a theory should be based on its ability to explain why the writers made certain decisions from a plot planners pov. While the number of hints given ingame should not be ignored, it is far more important how easily they could have later on been brushed aside, trimmed, or fleshed out into a deeper story. The 6/6-speculations are a prime example of one such theory. It gives the writers enough free way to basically act anyway they like or ignore it completely if they desire to go against it (which they did). As such it was a solid theory and, in my opinion, did not deserved to even being made fun of in a book ingame.

    By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

    Grenth is Dwyana's son, it's stated in the game

    Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

    There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

    We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

    This was intentional, I remember seeing the devs comment on this in one of the AMA, I’ll try to find the source.

    Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

    I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

    “User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

    Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

    JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

    And thank you! <3

    Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

    Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

    There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

    We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

    This was intentional, I remember seeing the devs comment on this in one of the AMA, I’ll try to find the source.

    Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

    I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

    “User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

    Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

    JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

    And thank you! <3

    Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

    She can't answer the spoiler, but did she mean that it's PoF spoiler so she can't spoil its story, or it will be revealed in Season 4 or whenever, or it will be just as "E" and we'll never find a crucial answer?

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    It was behind a spoiler tag, I just revealed it by logging into Reddit. Also this is with the Daybreak AMA.

    Apparently the devs aren’t dove with E.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

    Grenth is Dwyana's son, it's stated in the game

    Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

    I know. That was the point of my comment.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

    I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

    “User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

    Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

    JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

    And thank you! <3

    Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

    TBH, that's not all that convincing. I mean, Scott McGough refused to comment on Stavemaster Arywn's background a few months after Heart of Thorns along with a few other Nightmare Court/mordrem/sylvari questions because "potential spoilers" (this thread - while the post in question doesn't say "can't answer because of spoilers" his earlier post in the thread says he may not due to spoilers of future story).

    But honestly, what are the chances that'll ever come up?

    In fact, in said thread, Scott said that they wouldn't answer threads that might come up in the story, which I interpret as being that even if they hold no intention of it becoming a plot thread currently, if they feel it could due to the questions asked, then they won't answer.

    So personally I remain unconvinced that the two ambiguous mentions of Lyssa in a plethora of dialogue, especially with one being in a speech having been stated to have been rewritten nearly a dozen times (Kormir's) is guaranteed to hold significance.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

    Grenth is Dwyana's son, it's stated in the game

    Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

    I know. That was the point of my comment.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

    I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

    “User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

    Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

    JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

    And thank you! <3

    Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

    TBH, that's not all that convincing. I mean, Scott McGough refused to comment on Stavemaster Arywn's background a few months after Heart of Thorns along with a few other Nightmare Court/mordrem/sylvari questions because "potential spoilers" (this thread - while the post in question doesn't say "can't answer because of spoilers" his earlier post in the thread says he may not due to spoilers of future story).

    But honestly, what are the chances that'll ever come up?

    In fact, in said thread, Scott said that they wouldn't answer threads that might come up in the story, which I interpret as being that even if they hold no intention of it becoming a plot thread currently, if they feel it could due to the questions asked, then they won't answer.

    So personally I remain unconvinced that the two ambiguous mentions of Lyssa in a plethora of dialogue, especially with one being in a speech having been stated to have been rewritten nearly a dozen times (Kormir's) is guaranteed to hold significance.

    Fair enough, but looking at each piece alone doesn’t hold much weight, however in the totality, it starts to become much more different.

    Jessica could of said, yeah we forgot about Lyssa, or Balthazar was dying he didn’t get the chance to curse Lyssa either except they don’t. What we have is Balthazar having a powerful artifact that belonged to Lyssa, a small piece of dialogue stating that even Lyssa agreed with Balthazar being stripped of his power and Lyssa not being mentioned when Balthazar cursed the rest of the gods. What’s the Devs response to that last point? Can’t talk about that spoiler, sorry. I would be in complete agreement with you if Lyssa was cursed and he forgot to say Melandru.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And if Jessica said nothing because she just wanted to keep speculations going among the fanbase? Anet showed that they rather enjoy seeing people theorycraft quite a bit, so they do tend to avoid confirming or denying when asked about popular theories. It's also possible that they intended nothing when making the three associations to Lyssa, but saw player reactions and went "hmm, maybe we could use this? Put it on the drawing board and forbid devs from commenting just in case." Wouldn't be the first time Anet seemingly got inspired by player theory rather than had it planned all along.

    Jessica had the same kind of answer to the question of if Lonai was holding the Staff of the Mists in Aurene's vision, which we clearly know with better observation of the cinematic that she didn't (auroraeleonora was the one who asked that question too, and answered herself later saying "Joko's staff" (though that too was wrong ;))). So I would argue that kind of response holds no weight on the matter.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And if Jessica said nothing because she just wanted to keep speculations going among the fanbase? Anet showed that they rather enjoy seeing people theorycraft quite a bit, so they do tend to avoid confirming or denying when asked about popular theories. It's also possible that they intended nothing when making the three associations to Lyssa, but saw player reactions and went "hmm, maybe we could use this? Put it on the drawing board and forbid devs from commenting just in case." Wouldn't be the first time Anet seemingly got inspired by player theory rather than had it planned all along.

    Jessica had the same kind of answer to the question of if Lonai was holding the Staff of the Mists in Aurene's vision, which we clearly know with better observation of the cinematic that she didn't (auroraeleonora was the one who asked that question too, and answered herself later saying "Joko's staff" (though that too was wrong ;))). So I would argue that kind of response holds no weight on the matter.

    Well it’s also possible that they don’t know what they are talking about and don’t want to commit to an answer without watching a Woodenpotatoes video🤣 and doing their research, which kinda puts into question really any dev response, unless they grant someone at the company the lore master status and anything from their mouth is canon.

    Honestly Konig, I feel like sometimes we might over analyze beyond the story plot and narrative team’s design sometimes.

    Go apply to the company so you can keep all the lore straight 😁

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2018

    Didn't they recently hire someone who's job is primarily to keep narrative between the LW releases and expansion consistent (beginning with Season 4)? So that position would be filled. :tongue:

  • DarcShriek.5829DarcShriek.5829 Member ✭✭✭

    All I know is that moments after leaving Balthazar, someone introduced us to their new powers

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except you never said anything about "whether Mordremoth would be used or not". You said "Mordremoth was questionable". You gave zero context, and I mentioned that lack of context right off the bat, [...]

    Where did you mention it? If you really did, I must have missed it, which surprises me a little, but of course could be the case as I am forced due to real life to spend much less time writing my posts here that I would like. Regardless, I am sorry that you misunderstood that, I thought it would be obvious.

    @Nikolai.3648 said:

    And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.


    I also mentioned the fact that Trueclaw did not mention the dragons. And gave an explanation. Maybe you should reread my post?

    "even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference."

    I am referring to this part here:

    @Nikolai.3648 said: Being a charr, she could have simply missed the human gods as an obvious answer, making her into a twist of an "the cloudcuckoolander was right" scenario, a rather common trope in video games.

    It was the sentence after the one you quoted. How did you miss that?

    My point being that she doesn't muse any number difference.

    Yes, she muses. She even uses "…" at the end of her thoughts. I am afraid that you and I remember differently in this case.

    And in all I can recall, no one ever brought up a "number difference by Trueclaw" as an argument for relating the Elder Dragons to Six Gods except for one person who thought she meant five dragons against six somethings, due to not knowing the orders-relevant dialogue where Trueclaw specified five races.

    It is obvious that you need to think that there are 6 dragons to connect them to the 6 gods, which is the very base of the theory. It is not about any number difference, it is about the number itself. I know for certain that this NPC came up a few times as an argument for 6 dragons, but I am afraid I don’t have the time to dig around forums to prove it.

    Mordremoth's existence, however, was indeed never in question.

    I am confused here. Did you just ignore my whole post up there? You even say yourself:

    Your "Mordremoth-theory" which was "will Mordremoth become a plot in the future" is an entirely different matter, and prior to the Season 1 finale, would indeed have been a questionable thing

    Yes, it was.

    • even if the question was "when" rather than "if".

    So of course, the question was not just when, but if the writers would give it the spotlight (or the Malyck treatment (, first ignoring it and claiming it will come back later, only for it to either never come up again or be retconned in some way)).

    And for the record, I never said the dragon-god theory isn't valid due to the source of inspiration, but rather it isn't valid because it falls apart once you get past the halfway point no matter how one tries to explain it.

    As I mentioned before:

    @Nikolai.3648 said: It doesn't matter if they don’t add up 100%, I would go as far and say that it would be stupid for the writers to have done such a thing at that point, because it would have more or less forced them to go through with it, which is something you should never do from a writers point of view if you work on a game like Guild Wars.

    I don’t get how you think that a few inconsistencies in what players thought on it make anything not a viable theory. While certain things changed regarding the way the authors write the story, at that time giving certain hints that may not all add up was a given and room for lots of error in theories was what followed. Just take a look at Malyck. Then at HOT. Do you think they really gave a kitten about Malyck when creating HOT? No, because his mere existence could be swept under the rug and they didn’t care, did not even come up with some explanation ingame after all this time (maybe one day, I can hope…). You get my point?

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    As such the quality of a theory should be based on its ability to explain why the writers made certain decisions from a plot planners pov. While the number of hints given ingame should not be ignored, it is far more important how easily they could have later on been brushed aside, trimmed, or fleshed out into a deeper story. The 6/6-speculations are a prime example of one such theory. It gives the writers enough free way to basically act anyway they like or ignore it completely if they desire to go against it (which they did). As such it was a solid theory and, in my opinion, did not deserved to even being made fun of in a book ingame.

    By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

    That would mean that you think that the writers would really think of this as a viable option for the plot that will please the players in some way. If you do so, then yes, it may indeed be a viable theory. But you don’t, do you? Neither do I. But the theories in this threat here? You don’t even need to ask if people think (or thought) that they would make for interesting stories, plot twists, tales, or just epic lore. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t waste their time on it.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I don’t get how you think that a few inconsistencies in what players thought on it make anything not a viable theory.

    Because that is the basis for how theories get proven or debunked.

    The problem with the Elder Dragon/Gods theory is that it adds some sort of connection to what is inherently nothing more then similarity based on a limited set of character qualities to draw from. Things like earth, fire, wind, water, life, death, knowledge, are classical "elements" in fantasy settings, and there is usually one, if not more then one, group of beings who are both elementally based, but they aren't connected to each other in any way beyond the fact that they both share a similar elemtnal favorite.

    The Elder Dragons/Gods theory is functionally the same as trying to equate every single fire elemental as being a servant of Balthazar or Primordus because those the human god/elder dragon, of fire. That isn't how it works, none of them are related, they are just elementally focused beings, and due to the limited number of base elements to chose from, many separate groups overlap, but have nothing to do with each other.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I don’t get how you think that a few inconsistencies in what players thought on it make anything not a viable theory.

    Because that is the basis for how theories get proven or debunked.

    A theory can not be proven by merely being consistent. If it could, that would make multiple theories that would contradict each other but are consistent with what is known at that time true facts. This is however not the case. They may coexist but are still mere theories, not proven in any way. And what is far more important, a theory cannot necessarily be debunked by it showing a few signs of inconsistency. Mind you, we talk about a game and writing here! Sure, if someone made up a mathematical theory that contradicts with a priori derived knowledge, then we can say that the theory must be invalid. But we are talking about a story being written by naturally imperfect humans and as such what we get is not a falsifiable theory but something like a sealed box that got reached around by multiple people, each one pinning little labels on it with what they think should be inside. Now the last person has to put something in the box for us to find it when we buy and open it. In an ideal world, people would have only put tags on it that can be combined. For example: Black, furry, likes fish. The last person can then put a black cat in it and we would buy it thinking it could be a cat, maybe another animal, and be happy with the outcome. However, what happens when there are some labels on the box that contradict each other? You have two choices: Throwing it into the trash or putting something in it that the buyer might still be satisfied with. After all, as long as they are happy with what they get, what does a little inconsistency even hurt? You can even use a black marker and write over the tags that don’t fit. And this is exactly what we should have in mind. The writers are in a position to make the former facts fit their new story if they want to. They can even ignore them if they need to, as long as the story itself is well made and enough to satisfy the customer (the players). All of the theories we make up are just based on the labels of the story. That means that while some theories might contradict with the hints ingame, they may still turn out to be right. An example: In the box is the HOT story. One of the labels outside is Malyck. They still sell the box and we are happy with it. Is there a contradiction between the label and what is inside the box? Probably. Did the writers thought it would be too big of a deal to still ship it? No. Let's say someone predicted the HOT story line 100% correctly. People would say that the theory is not valid because Malyck contradicts it. Still, the theory is correct. We just don’t know that, until the box is opened. That is why you should always give such theories a certain leeway. The 6/6-theories were the same: The writers could have made an epic story out of it if they wished to. People assumed that the writers would think that taking care of a few contradictions here and there was worth the trouble. They basically did not only take ingame knowledge into account, but also estimated the writers' personality. And this is something that takes far more skill than just going through a checklist of ingame facts to check if there are contradictions. It can heavily backfire, but I respect the work people put into it. Now, I could talk about the 6/6-theory a bit longer, like how most well thought out theories went behind such elemental attributes you mentioned and instead focused on the character of the dragons and the gods (like I did in my post, but I got nowhere close to the real interpretive ones), but since it was already requested that it might be better to stick closer to the topic (sorry, Svennis), I will leave the past theories behind and just sum up what I personally think speaks for the "Lyssa will come back" - side:

    There are the new~ish hints ingame that were already mentioned in this threat: Lyssa´s mirror, Lyssa´s extra mention by Kormir, Lyssa not being cursed by Balthaddon when he had enough time to curse the other four.

    There is also the fact that from all gods, Lyssa is the easiest one to justify if you want to get her back into the story. She is often depicted as double sided, which makes her an ideal wild card. She is also all about making the world a better place. As long as you can make up any utilitarian sounding reasoning, her decision to stay behind/come back could easily be justified. There are also mentions of her caring especially for Elona. And of course, she has the means to do it without the other gods noticing her work. There is probably more to say here, but I think this will suffice for now.

    The most important argument to me personally comes from the long term meta/writers-perspective:

    If the writers would have wanted the gods far away story wise, they could have just ignored them like they more or less did before POF and the living story leading up to it. We had no reason to think they actively intervened anyway. They could have even nonchalantly dropped the fact that the gods left completely on us during the raids - Desmina could have introduced this new fact. If they did that, there would have been no doubts left, the gods are out of the picture and the writers don’t plan to pay attention to them anymore. Instead, they decided to do the exact opposite: They got them back into the picture by literary putting them into the story again, making them the central point of POF. While the writers make it look like the gods are farther away than ever lore wise, story wise they were never closer since gw1-days. I think that was intentionally. The writers don’t want to have them out of the picture. Instead, they set the stage for a longer plot that involves the gods, most likely until the third expansion hits. I can't think of any other reason for them to go through all this trouble if they really wanted to get rid of the gods. Ok, except incompetence, but for once I am optimistic that they prove to know the basics of good storytelling.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    @Nikolai.3648 said:
    I can't think of any other reason for them to go through all this trouble if they really wanted to get rid of the gods. Ok, except incompetence, but for once I am optimistic that they prove to know the basics of good storytelling.

    I actually agree with most of what you're saying here, but I can think of one reason: providing closure to a hanging thread that a portion of the playerbase was deeply invested in. If they perceived a choice between leaving the question of the gods hanging indefinitely or tying it off in a bow when the opportunity presented itself, of course they would go with the later- especially in the wake of their decisions in HoT, where they've stated that in retrospect things like Malyck really deserved a conclusion, even though the main narrative wouldn't have supported a greater role for him and his Tree without detracting from other stories the devs were more interested in telling. Yes, there's room to build something more on this Lyssa thing, and I'm not saying it's ironclad that they won't... but if they don't, travelling to the realm of the last remaining god, and meeting her face-to-face (something that, as you note, we didn't even do in GW1), is still an appropriately climactic way to send the Six off.

    In fact, the only objections I've seen come from inconsistencies with their previous storytelling, and not necessarily the broad story beats in isolation. If they had made the small tweak of Grenth and Kormir taking the souls of their followers with them instead of leaving their faithful unprotected in the Mists, and the admittedly larger tweak of founding the human identity more solidly on other traits than their faith (so that writing the gods out didn't feel like knocking down the last pillar holding up what made them interesting), I think Kormir's farewell would've gone over well enough that we wouldn't see so many of these threads hoping there will be more to come.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    I disagree. If they leave the Gods as they are now, without any concrete explanation of what they are doing, then they as a concept and storytelling component are entirely undermined. Kormir's departure was not in any way climactic, and if ArenaNet thought it was then they seriously fluffed it.

    As something that has existed since the beginning of the franchise, the Gods deserve better attention and respect in the narrative. You don't see other franchises just dropping or writing off the literal Gods of the setting because another generation of writers apparently don't want to deal with them beyond vague mentions or even performing a semi-spiteful reveal that they've really been uncaring incompetents the entire time and the race they rescued from another planet were stupid for ever worshipping or offering them respect.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

    I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

    So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

    As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

    Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

    Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    In my opinion I always assumed that there was just one hero, mainly because of game play reasons they added two new starter areas in Factions and Nightfall as sort of a starting zone for new players. I could be wrong though but i don't think it would make sense time travel wise ( for nightfall and faction heroes to go to ascalon) or the 4 main supporting Henchmen, Devona Cynn, Aidan and Mhenlo to be canon if their was no hero to stop the titans or the lich (unless they are the cannon heroes that stopped him).

  • mtpelion.4562mtpelion.4562 Member ✭✭✭

    I think that the distinction between "campaign" and "expansion" has bearing on canon. It would make the most sense for each campaign to represent a different being, while the expansion is a continuation of a being's story.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    In my opinion I always assumed that there was just one hero, mainly because of game play reasons they added two new starter areas in Factions and Nightfall as sort of a starting zone for new players. I could be wrong though but i don't think it would make sense time travel wise ( for nightfall and faction heroes to go to ascalon) or the 4 main supporting Henchmen, Devona Cynn, Aidan and Mhenlo to be canon if their was no hero to stop the titans or the lich (unless they are the cannon heroes that stopped him).

    It was confirmed that going "backwards" was mechanics only and not lore, but that wouldn't stop other "heroes" from showing up. Plus if there was canonically only one, why would they have now two sources saying more than one (Young Heroes of Tyria book in GW1 showing 3, Facing the Truth in GW2 showing 5). Plus, the events on Istan and Shing Jea always happen, so who filled the role of a Factions / Nightfall PC?

  • Torn Fierceslash.6375Torn Fierceslash.6375 Member ✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    In my opinion I always assumed that there was just one hero, mainly because of game play reasons they added two new starter areas in Factions and Nightfall as sort of a starting zone for new players. I could be wrong though but i don't think it would make sense time travel wise ( for nightfall and faction heroes to go to ascalon) or the 4 main supporting Henchmen, Devona Cynn, Aidan and Mhenlo to be canon if their was no hero to stop the titans or the lich (unless they are the cannon heroes that stopped him).

    It was confirmed that going "backwards" was mechanics only and not lore, but that wouldn't stop other "heroes" from showing up. Plus if there was canonically only one, why would they have now two sources saying more than one (Young Heroes of Tyria book in GW1 showing 3, Facing the Truth in GW2 showing 5). Plus, the events on Istan and Shing Jea always happen, so who filled the role of a Factions / Nightfall PC?

    I assume henchmen that were Shing Jea students of Master Todo did the starter for factions area and Koss+ other heros did the starter area for nightfall lore wise, Anet writing was never the most logical in gaming with a few plot holes here and there.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    Tyrian hero could apply to the world. So...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuddy.6247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    Tyrian hero could apply to the world. So...

    It's unlikely that Koss would say "the world hero" to specify someone from Elona, let alone would that be a common terminology. Especially since "Tyrian" usually refers to people and objects from the Central Tyria nations.

    That just seems like very odd wording, in all honesty.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    Koss on Koss could probably be forgiven because even if it was the Prophecies hero, you still become a sunspear - although your initiation is rather short. You help when Kormir is recruiting aid in foreign lands, set foot in Elona to meet her and become an honorable sunspear, help them reclaim Champion's Dawn, take the fight to Varesh at the docks and then afterward reclaim Sunspear Sanctuary - this all happens after the hero's arrival regardless of which campaign they're from. So you're a sunspear even if you don't have NF origins.

    I was more referring to how we get one source saying that there was a hero who rose through the ranks from Elona who was separate from the one from Ascalon, and then this source saying the hero of Nightfall was from Ascalon, leaving it questionable how the situation is.

    Simply put, there is nothing to forgive, it's just that ArenaNet has never been very consistent with how many heroes there were in GW1, and what they had done compared to any others.

    Tyrian hero could apply to the world. So...

    It's unlikely that Koss would say "the world hero" to specify someone from Elona, let alone would that be a common terminology. Especially since "Tyrian" usually refers to people and objects from the Central Tyria nations.

    That just seems like very odd wording, in all honesty.

    I don't think it's that odd. Referred to as the Tyrian hero for the world over because they were a hero all around the world - not just the hero of Cantha, Elona or Central Tyria. You seem to be thinking too much into it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2018

    The phrasing is equivalent to "the hero from Tyria". It would be like us calling someone "the Earthling hero" or "the human hero" long before any space travel or cross-species communications.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The phrasing is equivalent to "the hero from Tyria". It would be like us calling someone "the Earthling hero" or "the human hero" long before any space travel or cross-species communications.

    Or what if someone was called the European hero? Vague enough that you could attribute to someone who saved Europe, came from Europe or was a member of the European Union.

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