[PoF Spoilers] Succession of gods and their predecessors

Path of Fire brought the subject of ascension to Godhood back to the forefront. Kormir more or less confirmed someone had taken up the divinity stripped from Balthazar, and they have held his power for some time if Balth was chained in the mists for as long as it seemed.

Obviously there’s not much for us to speculate off who it could possibly be, but I’m always interested to hear theories. Which characters in existing canon do you think the writers could mine? Do you think they’ll pull a fast one and reveal the new god is not human?

I think Gwen would be the most poignant choice, but her history is fairly well documented. I wonder if a mortal must still be alive to ascend to godhood, or if divinity can be infused into their spirits.

I could also see Melonni, or perhaps one of the original GW1 Henchmen, like Brother Mhenlo. I suppose Menzies is also a candidate, but being Balthazar’s evil brother (and having a terrible name to boot) I doubt the gods would find him a worthy vessel lol.

Do you think this “new god” plot will ever pay off and find its way into the story of GW2, or do you think the gods are really never coming back?

On the subject of Predecessors (as Abbadon preceded Kormir, Dhuum preceded Grenth) I have been wondering about this mysterious predecessor of Abbadon hinted way back in GW1. You can find the conversation linked under the “former” God’s section on the Six’s wiki page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

My friend was searching the wiki and found this: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Arachnia seems like the perfect predecessor to Abbadon, but I wonder if this kind of thing will ever be confirmed or come into play plot wise in GW2.

My guess would be the GW1 PC if they do make them canon, would explain why they was never around to help Koss, livia , ascalon etc. They did get a boon from the same time as Kormir got her gift.

Kormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."player name: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."player name: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."Lyssa's Muse: "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift."Lyssa's Muse: "This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?"player name: "The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

( https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Madness )

Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

@Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign; Calling All Thugs just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while Redemption for the Lost has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while Koss on Koss in the Astralarium proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

@Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well it's not Gwen as we can actually see her (momentarily) during Hall of Chains. I doubt a god, especially Gwen as one, wouldn't just sit around while Dhuum gathers power if they were nearby.

I've heard the argument of the GW1 PC before, and it would be fitting. The problem is making them part of canon. The nature of the character means a name can never be presented in voice over, and the nature of how the accounts are linked are unlikely to allow one specific character to be chosen if the account had multiple characters. Then there's also the issue that ArenaNet still refuses to place anything close to a set answer: How many heroes were there, and how many did what? Young Heroes of Tyria presents the notion of 3 heroes, one per campaign;

Calling All Thugs

just lists whichever character you're on as doing everything that character has done, even if that means taking a NF character to Prophecies which would be breaking the timeline lore-wise, while

Redemption for the Lost

has Zenmai saying any PC, even if they're from Elona, reminds her of "a certain sunspear" (referring to the NF-origins hero). Facing the Truth has 5 Hero phantasms, while

Koss on Koss in the Astralarium

proclaims that the hero of the Nightfall campaign is the Prophecies hero which would seemingly negate the existence / importance of the "Sunspear" that Zenmai mentioned... and the one who helped Kormir in Istan which Koss worked alongside with a lot.

So until that befuddlement ever gets cleared up, I'm sure the GW1 PC will remain... non-existent in the story, as much as possible.

As for whether or not this new god of conflict will ever take a stage in GW2. Hard to say. While it does seem like the story of the gods has been effectively closed up (all too soon IMHO), there's enough to hint that maybe one day they'll come back to it (you know, when folks are tied to undead and dragons again).

Arachnia's existence is still debatable given that all mention of it comes from the gw.dat which is unlikely to have been made canon. And it's not likely we'll learn much at all of Abaddon's predecessor TBH.

@Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:Which made me think of the knowldge we have now, if Lyssa did come with the other gods knowledge or if she came on her own.

Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story). Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

@Tyson.5160 It's also possible that's there's been some kind of rift with the two aspects of Lyssa - Lyss and Ilya could be at odds with one another, somehow, with one having helped Balthazar while the other hindered (or left). I do like the theory that Lady Anise and Queen Jennah are the aspects of Lyssa in disguise. It's the only way their ridiculous level of power makes sense, imo.

If they haven't chosen a successor for Balthazar already then I hope it comes up as a story point given that situation is far more interesting than the dragons. ArenaNet seem to have a habit of making the plots they personally don't want to explore more interesting than any of the other options.

But if a successor is chosen, I'd like to see a different take on 'war' and 'conflict', or rather, the original take on it that Balthazar was supposed to represent before he got hit with the villain bat. Similar to how the God of Secrets was succeeded by the God of Truth. Perhaps the God of War can be succeeded by the God of... Who knows? Protection? God of Protection, the Guardian, insert plethora of titles here.

War is not nice, but it is necessary to protect yourself, your family and your friends. Fighting to defend yourself is no sin, fighting against world ending threats certainly isn't either. A God that represents that side of War rather than the bloody-minded slaughter that Path of Fire Balthazar went for would be nice.

It'd also be another example of the Gods tending to clean up their house when one of them acts up: See replacing Abbadon with Kormir, Dhuum with Grenth etc. Each one vastly preferable to the one before them.

Not sure what you mean by Lyssa coming. I can only assume you're referring to the speculation that Lyssa is on Tyria still which, by all accounts, she's not. It's just baseless conjecture at this point, off of two very vague sentences that people want to believe implies Lyssa helped Balthazar. Even if she did help Balthazar, that wouldn't mean Lyssa is on or returned to Tyria.

i mean back in GW1 missions she was the only one talking, maybe the other gods didn't care back then and she acted on her own or game design wise might of been cheaper to hire one voice actor back the. I also doubt she is in GW2 right now only evidence she was in the world is a Mirror that Balth had and he could of gotten it from the Mists.

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

There were only really three things. The Mirror of Lyssa, Kormir's mention of "even Lyssa" and Balthazar's final cursing.

We know Balthazar raided the reliquaries holding the gods' artifacts. Kormir could easily be referencing the long established fact that Lyssa cared deeply for living with humanity with her "even Lyssa" (if she meant anything at all), and Balthazar was literally on his last breath and this isn't something like Dragonball where characters can give 5 minute monologues with a shot-through lung.

@Nikolai.3648 said:Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

TBH, there was no real hints to "six dragons - six gods plot" ever. I mean, we only learned of a sixth dragon with the initial release and it was in the initial release that any correlation between the gods and dragons on a one to one scale got massively debunked in Orr.

Mordremoth's existence was never really counteracted or subtle either, unless you're referring to the sylvari reveal in which tbh, people came to the right conclusion for all the wrong reasons.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

You misread my post: I only referred to the latter two events, as evident by the word both (and the fact that I don’t count the LS as the main story because its "temporary" even when still buyable). Also "only three things" is more than we ever had hints at Mordremoth. I count more or less two hints at Mordremoth, if you want to count them as separate: COE (Subject alphas attack name) and the complex around it suggesting a plant dragon. They could have easily swept that under the rug if they wanted, like they did with Arachnia in GW1.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:Of course, they could always do what I think they did with the 6 dragons – 6 gods plot, which is deciding against it and never come back to it, maybe leave some book around making fun of players for believing in a theory that might have as well been true, especially since Mordremoth was more or less predicted with the same amount of hints. But yeah, I think that will not happen with Lyssa.

As with the Mordremoth theory, which had near zero hints but a good logical foundation in that it could be true (it is not necessarily for the plot and could be effortlessly dropped, but also nothing goes against the theory, directly contradicting it), the 6/6 theory also had a solid foundation for the longest time of gw2. It was really not that bad. I personally never agreed with the pairings, but that’s also because they had a lot of options. Take my old best guesses for an example:

Balthazar/PrimordusMelandru/MordremothDwayna/KralkatorikZhaitan/Dhuum/GrenthJormag/LyssaAbaddon/Kormir/DSD

To reuse an old explanation of mine:

"First we have the Balthazar, who seems to be connected to Primordus. Both are quite fiery in nature and share a wish for destruction. You may argue that Balthazar does simply favour fair battles as seen with the Zaishen, but don't forget he is also the god of war - and war is neither fair nor glorious. Not much is known about Primordus, but it seems to simply battle for the sake of destruction itself, what could be interpreted as a twisted mentality of Balthazar. Primordus also creates mockeries of living creatures out of lava, using them as soldiers, while Balthasar always seemed to treat living (or dead, but feeling) fighters with respect and savour their passion, something Primordus creations lack obviously.

Second in line is Melandru who is linked to Mordremoth. Both share the whole nature theme, being rather plant like in appearance but existing behind it, as nature in Melandru's case or as a being in the dream. I would argue that all of Tyria's nature is Melandrus body and her appearance in old Arah was simply an avatar to her, as Mordremoths head is in Dragons stand. (This may even be supported by the fact that when Abaddon attacked the gods, only two seemed to be physically present at the time, trying to fight back but not standing a chance until the other deities arrived and together beat Abaddon.)

Next is Dwayna who is linked to Kralkatorik. Both dragon and goddess rule over air and lightning. It is noteworthy that both share contrasting motherly features, caring about their "children". Dwayna brought humanity to Tyria and is depicted as loving and forgiving, while Kralkatorik was so angered by Glint's betrayal, that its first action after awakening was to kill its offspring. Let's not forget that while Dwayna is not commonly associated with crystals, the Jade Wind Shiro unleashed upon Cantha was empowered by a twisted prayer to Dwayna, also somehow connecting this aspect of dragon and deity.

Zhaitan is connected to Dhuum and Grenth, all three beings of death. They all share different opinions on death: Dhuum promises the ultimate end, Grenth simply judges the dead and grants necromancers a few favours, while Zhaitan seems to fear death and promises its minions eternal life. All three also share an important position: Zhaitan wants to be the king of the risen, Grenth is the judge of the dead and as such the highest instance of the normal afterlife and Dhuum once ruled the underworld as an unforgiving sovereign. All three also experience defeat: Zhaitan is ultimately killed, Dhuum is imprisoned and Grenth still loses to Dhuums forces who threaten to break through the mists into Tyria, for example the god lost swamps. Minor fact: It is said that Zhaitan is also connected to shadows, with Dhuum having black smoke evaporating out of his robes. They all are antithesis to each other: Zhaitan views death as terrible and fears it, trying to evade it at all cost, while Grenth teaches that death may be inevitable but nothing to fear as he will judge fairly and Dhuum may as well tell us the truth when he is referring to himself as (an avatar of) death itself, promising a different form of justice in making all the same in death.

Jormag is connected to Lyssa. Lyssa is often depicted as the deity of mind and thoughts, while Jormag corrupts the mind of its pray. Lyssa is also linked to water or more likely the ever-changing reflections of it, while Jormag is associated with ice, which makes brilliant mirrors but is never changing. Water is also linked with life, being essential to survive, while ice and snow is commonly associated with death. Lyssa teaches to love each other and see behind the mere appearance, while Jormag preaches of power before all else. Lyssa's stories especially depict the deity as caring and showing people that it is good to take pity and help, while Jormag actively persuades a cruel survival of the fittest. While Lyssa confuses the eyes with cloaking illusions, Jormag is a blinding snowstorm. Through nobody knows Lyssa's gender for sure, or even if they are one or two, they are commonly addressed as female, while the sons of Jormag are highly misogynistic, going as far as killing female icebrood, while Lyssa again teaches to respect and love each other and to look behind external differences. Another minor fact: There exist a number of abandoned shrines in GW1, each dedicated to one of the gods. Lyssa's shrine is located in an icy cave in the mineral springs. This is also the only place for ice-dragon swords to drop, which are known in GW2 as Jormag's Breath. It is also interesting that Lyssa is the patron deity of mesmers and such chronomancers, who sometimes temper with time as several skills suggest. (No, I don’t buy the lame explanation that CS is just an advanced clone.) Jormags element in is purest form would probably be sheer cold, as in zero Kelvin, meaning absolute still stand, probably the closest you can get to stopping time.

Abaddon, god of secrets and the (watery) depths, linked to the most secret sea dragon: Bubbles. (Since we don’t know much about it I can't really say much here, I will simply fill this place with something else: It is interesting to note that Abaddon and Lyssa seemed to share a grudge with each other, as Nightfall hinted. The breaking of Abaddon's seal entailed the destruction of Lyssa's floating temple, while Lyssa was the deity most concerned about Abaddon and even the one giving the players words of courage before the last battle, despite Dwayna's (leader of the 5 gods) Avatar being present. There is also the Abaddon temple in gw2 with illusions appearing. That could mean that maybe Bubbles will have a conflict with Jormag in the future. But that’s less then just a mere guess to fill up some space.) This is quite a weak pair with Kormir, but since we don’t know anything about the dragon, I will take it. "

Sure, by now we know that the human deities are not connected to the dragons from a "scientific" or Tyrian standpoint, but they often mirror each other and seemed connected from a writer's point of view. It may have been planned to connect the pairs at one point, like Mordremoth was planned, but contrary to our jungle dragon this theory was dropped in the later development. Does that make the theory itself bad? No, it doesn’t. It merely shows how the outlines of the story changes with the writers plans for it.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

This was intentional, I remember seeing the devs comment on this in one of the AMA, I’ll try to find the source.

@"Nikolai.3648" said:You misread my post: I only referred to the latter two events, as evident by the word both (and the fact that I don’t count the LS as the main story because its "temporary" even when still buyable). Also "only three things" is more than we ever had hints at Mordremoth. I count more or less two hints at Mordremoth, if you want to count them as separate: COE (Subject alphas attack name) and the complex around it suggesting a plant dragon. They could have easily swept that under the rug if they wanted, like they did with Arachnia in GW1.

[...]

As with the Mordremoth theory, which had near zero hints but a good logical foundation in that it could be true (it is not necessarily for the plot and could be effortlessly dropped, but also nothing goes against the theory, directly contradicting it), the 6/6 theory also had a solid foundation for the longest time of gw2. It was really not that bad. I personally never agreed with the pairings, but that’s also because they had a lot of options. Take my old best guesses for an example:

Mordremoth's existence was outright stated and his name outright given in a fairly direct (if hidden in the latter) manner. Not sure where "near zero hints but a good logical foundation" comes in there. The only questionable thing was Mordremoth's domains. Sure, two is fewer than three, but those aren't hints.

This is vastly different than something that literally had nothing in the game ever hinting towards a relation. People created that whole "six dragons for six gods" theory simply because both groups had six. There wasn't anyone thinking there was much of a relation before we learned there were six dragons. And even when we had no clue what Mordremoth's domain was, folks were trying to connect them.

Your attempt is by far the best I've seen but it's still making more stretches than a pilates class. And that's nothing even remotely close to "Mordremoth exists".

Not that it really matters in the end. But Mordremoth's existence was never in question.

If you mean the sylvari are dragon minions, though, then we literally had one actual hint - Experimental Lab Green in CoE explorable. Everything that folks had used for their theorycrafting were actually wrong (such as the belief that the binary of the Zone Green golem translated to "Pale Tree" when it was actually a common code for "End Transmission") or held no relevance in the end (such as using Glint to explain why the Pale Tree could rebel due to Ventari, or the Dream being a hive mind - at least in the manner they suspected). We only had facts that hinted against it. Hence why sylvari are rather contradictive to other dragon minions (this was no doubt a result of ArenaNet trying too hard to keep the reveal a secret, and they've had to go back on this by saying "sylvari are unique among dragon minions in more ways than their free will").

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Mordremoth's existence was outright stated and his name outright given in a fairly direct (if hidden in the latter) manner.

Oh, it appears I have forgotten that NPC. Makes at best three hints in total now.

Not sure where "near zero hints but a good logical foundation" comes in there. The only questionable thing was Mordremoth's domains. Sure, two is fewer than three, but those aren't hints.

Yes, they are exactly that: Hints. Sorry, but I don’t see anything in them that makes them definite proof. Which is exactly why I would not agree with this here:

Not that it really matters in the end. But Mordremoth's existence was never in question.

The hints at launch time were nothing anet couldn’t have simply ignored later on. Especially since the number of hints were anything but overwhelming. If anet had decided against the Mordremoth plot, they could have ignored it the same way they have ignored other open ends (or lots of lore irregularities for that matter, the infinity ball and Malyck come immediately to mind, and I am sure these are not even the best examples). As long as the number of hints is small enough, there is no reason to know for certain that anet will follow through with it. That’s basically the argument you made yourself against Lyssa in an earlier post, so I am surprised you were so certain on that front while twisting the argument into fitting the other side here.

This is vastly different than something that literally had nothing in the game ever hinting towards a relation. People created that whole "six dragons for six gods" theory simply because both groups had six.

Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each other, were often even compared in terms of strength by the devs and share a lot of symmetries, as mentioned above. I now remember that even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference. Being a charr, she could have simply missed the human gods as an obvious answer, making her into a twist of an "the cloudcuckoolander was right" scenario, a rather common trope in video games. The best theories are most often not based on ingame knowledge but around being able to make an educated guess at what the writers could use as a plot twist when the time comes. And there were many clues supporting the theory at launch, which is why it got so popular to begin with.

There wasn't anyone thinking there was much of a relation before we learned there were six dragons. And even when we had no clue what Mordremoth's domain was, folks were trying to connect them.

I am not saying that people didn’t get overly excited by it. I don’t even want to defend most of the pairings. But the fact that so many people jumped on the train itself was a sign that many people thought that it might be a realistic plan for the story that anet would try to push later on. And after seeing what they have done with the story lately, I can only agree with them on the fact that even the wildest ideas that may or may not directly contradict logical reasoning are acceptable as plot twists for anet writers and as such also fair game for theories. That included the 6 gods/6 dragons-theory in the past and "Lyssa will show up later" now. The latter one at least has a more solid back up that would be harder to retcon than the "there are 6 dragons" lore bit, which was more or less one single NPC and the name of an attack at release. And look how far they went with those few hints.

@Nikolai.3648 said:Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each otherExcept they don't unless you massively cherry pick certain aspects of each, while ignoring the others. For example-Primordus = Fire = Balthazar-Jormarg = Ice = Grenth-Zhaitan = Death = Grenth-Mordremoth = plants = Melandru-Kralkatorik = lightning = Dwayna-Bubbles = water = LyssaAnd then there is none for Kormir, and two for Grenth.

@"Svennis.3852" said:Path of Fire brought the subject of ascension to Godhood back to the forefront. Kormir more or less confirmed someone had taken up the divinity stripped from Balthazar, and they have held his power for some time if Balth was chained in the mists for as long as it seemed.

Obviously there’s not much for us to speculate off who it could possibly be, but I’m always interested to hear theories. Which characters in existing canon do you think the writers could mine? Do you think they’ll pull a fast one and reveal the new god is not human?

I think Gwen would be the most poignant choice, but her history is fairly well documented. I wonder if a mortal must still be alive to ascend to godhood, or if divinity can be infused into their spirits.

I could also see Melonni, or perhaps one of the original GW1 Henchmen, like Brother Mhenlo. I suppose Menzies is also a candidate, but being Balthazar’s evil brother (and having a terrible name to boot) I doubt the gods would find him a worthy vessel lol.

Do you think this “new god” plot will ever pay off and find its way into the story of GW2, or do you think the gods are really never coming back?

On the subject of Predecessors (as Abbadon preceded Kormir, Dhuum preceded Grenth) I have been wondering about this mysterious predecessor of Abbadon hinted way back in GW1. You can find the conversation linked under the “former” God’s section on the Six’s wiki page: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

My friend was searching the wiki and found this: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arachnia

Arachnia seems like the perfect predecessor to Abbadon, but I wonder if this kind of thing will ever be confirmed or come into play plot wise in GW2.

I think Menzies was killed during his battle against Balthazar in Fissure of Woe.

Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially the god of war.

@"Nikolai.3648" said:Yes, they are exactly that: Hints. Sorry, but I don’t see anything in them that makes them definite proof. Which is exactly why I would not agree with this here:

I'm sorry, but how exactly is an NPC explicitly stating that there were five races that fought six Elder Dragons something that is not definite proof?

Or [this NPC which mentions a sextet of Elder Dragons. I'm sure there were other NPCs that stated "there are six Elder Dragons" before Season 2 as well.

The existence of Mordremoth was never in question since core release. Nor was its domain of plants, due to Crucible of Eternity and this old interview which explicitly mentioned vegetation as an Elder Dragon's domain.

The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

@"Nikolai.3648" said:Except of course for the fact that the dragons and deities are more or less lined up perfectly next to each other, were often even compared in terms of strength by the devs and share a lot of symmetries, as mentioned above. I now remember that even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference. Being a charr, she could have simply missed the human gods as an obvious answer, making her into a twist of an "the cloudcuckoolander was right" scenario, a rather common trope in video games.

Except that they don't line up after the first few. You have to make some damn big stretches, a lot of speculation, and ignoring various facts to make them "line up perfectly". This is why every debate about it fell short fast. And because the discussions on the matter fell short very fast but kept getting brought up is no doubt why ArenaNet added that book reference to it.

Your arguments for example:

• Connects Lyssa's very minor domain of water via reflections to Jormag's Ice because "ice reflects too" even though Jormag's black and blue ice doesn't really reflect. One massive stretch there.
• Connects Dwayna and Kralkatorrik because "air" even though Kralkatorrik's domain of sky is pure speculation still, and ignores Kralkatorrik's crystals.
• Ignores Mordremoth's domain of mind, while simulously ignoring that Melandru's tie to nature is both flora and fauna while Mordremoth's domain of plant is just flora.
• Assumes that just because the DSD is Anet's best kept draconic secret that in lore it is tied to knowledge and secrets. You (and everyone else that doesn't try connecting it to Lyssa because water) literally just tact it on at the end because it doesn't fit anywhere else.
• Ignores Balthazar's war, Dwayna's life, Lyssa's illusion and/or beauty, Melandru's earth, Grenth's ice (and Dhuum's lack of), Kormir's spirit/order.

You cherrypick one of two or three domains the gods/dragons have, even though the other domain(s) would match another dragon/god better, and you don't even take the primary domain (life, death, war, beauty, nature, knowledge for the gods; fire, crystal, ice, death, plant, and unknown, water most likely, for the dragons) half the time. Heck, as stated, for Lyssa, you take the least associated attribute of hers.

And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.

@Arden.7480 said:Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially the god of war.

That's highly unlikely otherwise they would have done that to Abaddon instead of waiting 1,000 years for him to go even more insane and vengeful to replace him with a mortal. And they probably would have done the same to Dhuum in all honesty.

If the gods could suddenly take another gods' power or even divide it among them, then they retroactively open up massive plotholes with the entirety of GW1's storyline.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

The most important thing that was unclear was not if it was dormant or not – it was if the writers would decide to give it the spotlight. Which is my main argument that you entirely ignore. It doesn’t matter if some NPC speculate that there may be 6 elder dragons, 5 or even more, as it was sometimes speculated based on the change in the stars and the high number of stars in the night sky. If the writers would have decided against it, Mordremoth would have been forced to chill out with Arachnia.

Except that they don't line up after the first few.

I may have worded that a little bit too strong. Let's rephrase it like this: There are more then enough symmetries and antithesis going on between gods and dragons which could have been picked up by the writers and fleshed out into a base for the further story if the writers would have decided to walk that path. It doesn't matter if they don’t add up 100%, I would go as far and say that it would be stupid for the writers to have done such a thing at that point, because it would have more or less forced them to go through with it, which is something you should never do from a writers point of view if you work on a game like Guild Wars.

• Connects Dwayna and Kralkatorrik because "air" even though Kralkatorrik's domain of sky is pure speculation still, and ignores Kralkatorrik's crystals.

The argument I just made above this quote is also why I am not going to defend an old theory of mine. I shall however point out that I did mention the aspect of crystals. You could of course speculate further that lighting strikes cause natural crystal/glass-growth, but I don’t think that is necessary and I don’t plan to waste much time on my old speculation.

And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where that comes from.

I also mentioned the fact that Trueclaw did not mention the dragons. And gave an explanation. Maybe you should reread my post?

Most importantly you ignored the core problem: You try to make the Lyssa theory sound like a baseless assumption based on few vague hints. You ignore however that the Mordremoth-theory, which you depict as set into stone, was also based on rather few hints that were (contrary to Lyssa) not even set in the main story. This sounds like hypocrisy to me. And while the 6/6-theory may be a whole different matter, you are still ignoring the fact that a theory which is not based on ingame clues but rather meta knowledge is still just as valid. I will repeat myself: The only difference between the Mordremoth-theory and the 6/6-speculations was the writers decision to pull through with one of them while sweeping the other one under the ruck. Neither the number of hints ingame, nor the number of theories outside of it played any role in it. You try to make it sound like one theory was somehow of an higher quality and such more likely to turn out true. But again, this is false. I will repeat some of the essence of my last post: We have seen that anet writers are not unpredictable from a meta perspective and oftentimes don’t care about lore consistency. As such the quality of a theory should be based on its ability to explain why the writers made certain decisions from a plot planners pov. While the number of hints given ingame should not be ignored, it is far more important how easily they could have later on been brushed aside, trimmed, or fleshed out into a deeper story. The 6/6-speculations are a prime example of one such theory. It gives the writers enough free way to basically act anyway they like or ignore it completely if they desire to go against it (which they did). As such it was a solid theory and, in my opinion, did not deserved to even being made fun of in a book ingame.

@Arden.7480 said:Also Kormir said: WE stripped him of his powers, I get as like that every single god is now partially

the god of war

.

At least on this we seem to agree.

This is getting off topic. This thread is for discussing ascension/descension to and from godhood, not about the Six’s possible connection to the dragons.

If you want to chat about that I suggest making a new thread.

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The only thing that was "unclear" in regards to Mordremoth was 1) it's awakened or non-awakened state, and the connection between sylvari and Mordremoth that was hinted at in Wychmire Swamp and CoE.

Except you never said anything about "whether Mordremoth would be used or not". You said "Mordremoth was questionable". You gave zero context, and I mentioned that lack of context right off the bat, and went into the two most common discussions about Mordremoth (its existence, and its ties to sylvari). It was never really wondered by players if Mordremoth would be used, because most players just assumed it was a question of "when" not "if" since we were still so early in the game's life.

And the number of Elder Dragons was never speculated by NPCs, only players prior to the game's release (well, I think there were still theories of a "seventh Elder Dragon" floating about until we witnessed The All). That thing about stars? That was regarding their waking cycle, not their numbers.

There was never a "Mordremoth-theory" which was solely "will Mordremoth become a threat / story element?" but rather about its placement in the lore.

@Nikolai.3648 said:

And Trueclaw never once mentions the gods... So I don't know where

that

comes from.

"even the NPC you brought up was listed sometimes as an argument, as she muses about the number difference."

My point being that she doesn't muse any number difference. And in all I can recall, no one ever brought up a "number difference by Trueclaw" as an argument for relating the Elder Dragons to Six Gods except for one person who thought she meant five dragons against six somethings, due to not knowing the orders-relevant dialogue where Trueclaw specified five races.

@Nikolai.3648 said:Most importantly you ignored the core problem: You try to make the Lyssa theory sound like a baseless assumption based on few vague hints. You ignore however that the Mordremoth-theory, which you depict as set into stone, was also based on rather few hints that were (contrary to Lyssa) not even set in the main story. This sounds like hypocrisy to me. And while the 6/6-theory may be a whole different matter, you are still ignoring the fact that a theory which is not based on ingame clues but rather meta knowledge is still just as valid.

I would indeed argue that the comments on Lyssa are pretty vague and have a multiple set of meanings. Hell, I gave an alternative take on the comments in my very second post in this thread, and had given more the first time it got discussed shortly after PoF's release. Mordremoth's existence, however, was indeed never in question. Mordremoth's ties to sylvari was, however, in question and only vaguely hinted.

Your "Mordremoth-theory" which was "will Mordremoth become a plot in the future" is an entirely different matter, and prior to the Season 1 finale, would indeed have been a questionable thing - even if the question was "when" rather than "if".

And for the record, I never said the dragon-god theory isn't valid due to the source of inspiration, but rather it isn't valid because it falls apart once you get past the halfway point no matter how one tries to explain it.

@Nikolai.3648 said:I will repeat myself: The only difference between the Mordremoth-theory and the 6/6-speculations was the writers decision to pull through with one of them while sweeping the other one under the ruck. Neither the number of hints ingame, nor the number of theories outside of it played any role in it. You try to make it sound like one theory was somehow of an higher quality and such more likely to turn out true. But again, this is false.

The difference, actually, exists in the fact that the dragon-god theory became convoluted in its attempts to make it work. Meanwhile, Mordremoth's existence was proven from the get go. The Mordremoth-sylvari connection theory, I have long stated, was pretty unlikely due to the presented evidence, much like the dragon-god theory, but unlike the dragon-god theory it was never truly self-contradicting. It merely lacked proper support.

@Nikolai.3648 said:As such the quality of a theory should be based on its ability to explain why the writers made certain decisions from a plot planners pov. While the number of hints given ingame should not be ignored, it is far more important how easily they could have later on been brushed aside, trimmed, or fleshed out into a deeper story. The 6/6-speculations are a prime example of one such theory. It gives the writers enough free way to basically act anyway they like or ignore it completely if they desire to go against it (which they did). As such it was a solid theory and, in my opinion, did not deserved to even being made fun of in a book ingame.

By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

Grenth is Dwyana's son, it's stated in the game

Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

“User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

And thank you! <3”

Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nikolai.3648 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I think that we will come back to Lyssa in the plot sometime in the future as the devs would not comment on certain things pertaining to Lyssa in LWS3 and PoF’s story.Agreed. Especially since the hints were placed in such a way you can't even overlook them (both in the main story).

She can't answer the spoiler, but did she mean that it's PoF spoiler so she can't spoil its story, or it will be revealed in Season 4 or whenever, or it will be just as "E" and we'll never find a crucial answer?

It was behind a spoiler tag, I just revealed it by logging into Reddit. Also this is with the Daybreak AMA.

Apparently the devs aren’t dove with E.

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

I know. That was the point of my comment.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

“User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

And thank you! <3”

Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

TBH, that's not all that convincing. I mean, Scott McGough refused to comment on Stavemaster Arywn's background a few months after Heart of Thorns along with a few other Nightmare Court/mordrem/sylvari questions because "potential spoilers" (this thread - while the post in question doesn't say "can't answer because of spoilers" his earlier post in the thread says he may not due to spoilers of future story).

But honestly, what are the chances that'll ever come up?

In fact, in said thread, Scott said that they wouldn't answer threads that might come up in the story, which I interpret as being that even if they hold no intention of it becoming a plot thread currently, if they feel it could due to the questions asked, then they won't answer.

So personally I remain unconvinced that the two ambiguous mentions of Lyssa in a plethora of dialogue, especially with one being in a speech having been stated to have been rewritten nearly a dozen times (Kormir's) is guaranteed to hold significance.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:By this argument, I can proclaim the theory that Dwayna and Grenth are actually sibling lovers and it is just as valid as any other theory out there. Because ArenaNet doesn't care about lore consistency and it could make for an interesting plot, even though it's a thoroughly debunked statement based on what we can observe and are told.

Cathedral of Silence Priestess Rhie: Grenth is Dwayna's son, but only half-god. His father was a mortal sculptor, but that is one of the greatest secrets of our church.

@"Tyson.5160" said:Jeez Konig, I spent way too much time on this. Spent the last two hours combing through these AMAs.

I found the quote on the Daybreak AMA:

“User: auroraeleonora: Why Balthazar didn’t curse Lyssa? Can you tell us? Or it will be revealed throughout the Season 4?

Also I am happy you joined the ANet team! <3

JessicaLPrice777: Can’t answer the spoiler, sorry!

And thank you! <3”

Now had they just forgot or was an oversight, they would have mentioned something here, however there seems to be more to this story, especially with the other parts about Lyssa.

Fair enough, but looking at each piece alone doesn’t hold much weight, however in the totality, it starts to become much more different.

Jessica could of said, yeah we forgot about Lyssa, or Balthazar was dying he didn’t get the chance to curse Lyssa either except they don’t. What we have is Balthazar having a powerful artifact that belonged to Lyssa, a small piece of dialogue stating that even Lyssa agreed with Balthazar being stripped of his power and Lyssa not being mentioned when Balthazar cursed the rest of the gods. What’s the Devs response to that last point? Can’t talk about that spoiler, sorry. I would be in complete agreement with you if Lyssa was cursed and he forgot to say Melandru.