Signet of Ether is the problem

When people complain about Mesmers, they're typically talking about the phantasms spam build that's going on. A standard Sword/Shield and Staff Chrono that runs two Phantasms skills can get up to 5 Phantasms out, this signet will reset the cooldown on all of these skills and make it so you can get up to 10 out. 2 of those being taunts, and they all all do very heavy damage.

For some reason this was buffed down to 30 seconds when it was already a great build. The only reason it didn't see as wide use last season was because Mirage was even more broken and there were more counters going around. The nerfs barely affected this build and now if you're efficent with your shatters from phantasm spam, you'll get a ton of alacrity that lowers your CD even more leaving very little time where you aren't summoning Phantasms.

The build playstyle is mostly casting phatansms then anything else, and Signet of Ether doubles this problem. This is the skill that is the core of the phantasm spam builds. If this skill didn't exist, Mesmer would still be in a fantastic place since they're so versitile and well-rounded.

It's a great signet of PvE but I think it's just completely unhealthy to fight against in PvP due to the lack of cap on current Phantasms out at a single time. I'm not sure how you could balance the current Signet without destroying it completely. Maybe nerf the cooldown to like 40 or 45 seconds?

I'm hoping they cap phantasms to 5

@sephiroth.4217 said:I'm hoping they cap phantasms to 5

I hope they cap them to 3 instead xD

So you actually have to think more before shatter spam continuously.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:I'm hoping they cap phantasms to 5

3 is too low because it's start's to interfere with traits and skills that spawn 2 phantasms and using a skill like staff 3 combined with continuum split will only summon 3 instead of the 4 it was supposed too... Which means you're also nerfing continuum split and signet of ether.

I know but the limit in the UI is 3 dots, 1 dot per illusion.

Same for firebrand tomes pages, when you finish the dots, pages, the f1 or f3 or f3 skill goes on cooldown and you can't use it till it's recharged.

Maybe it's needed a rework in that sense, but maybe capping 5 could be already a good starting point to eliminate the spam and the powercreep dunno.

Cap it at 1 and call it a day

The problem isn't a cap, it's how often Phantasms can be respawned. You can chain Phantasms over and over again to the point where it gets ridiculous. The CD on Phantasm skills needs to increase significantly. What happened to the passive patch? Why weren't these passive monstrosities nerfed? A 10 second CD nerf to Disenchanter isn't enough.

Signet of the Ether is also a problem, yes. It essentially nullifies the phantasm CDs particularly Phantasmal Defender and Echo of Memory. It need to be changed to something like "Refresh the last Phantasm skill used." on a lower cooldown.

And there you go, Chrono fixed in one fell swoop.

Then there's power/condition Mirage which are still really powerful and not that reliant on Phantasms. I say revert Mirage Cloak dodge time back to 0.75 seconds like it was during the beta testing and nerf Elusive Mind. No, Exhaustion isn't a good idea. It still lets Elusive Mind be spammed. Changing these will press on Mirage's spam ability and that is Mirage Cloak's ability to let players be invulnerable way too often.

I went to go look at the chrono spec on paper.

Phantasmal Warlock does Damage (3x): 498 (0.45), and spawns two instances, at 1200 range. Each strike puts two stacks of vuln on you.Phantasmal Swordsman does Damage: 504 (0.5)?, and gives the mesmer 8 stacks of might if it hits, at 1200 range.Echo of Memory, if block channels, does Damage: 907 (0.9)? once the illusion gets out, at 900 range. It also slows you for 2 seconds, and gives the mesmer protection.Phantasmal Defender, once spawned, does a 900 range taunt for three seconds and at base does Damage: 452 (0.46)? This can increase up to 500% based on damage received, which makes its max damage raw 2,260.Phantasmal Disenchanter rips boons from your target at 900r, doing 400 damage if you have at least one boon, and 1,007 damage raw if you have no boons. It takes 5 boons off of you. This attack can bounce, so one instance can hit you multiple times. You can't block this.

You can have all of this on one build. note that none of the skills ever require you to get within 900r of your opponent.

1. With Mental Defense, you can cast another defender if you block or evade an attack. if you evade multiple attacks in one dodge, you can summon multiple defenders.

2. Signet of the Ether heals you for 350 on a 1 second interval whenever you summon an illusion. if you pop it it refreshes ALL of your phantasms immediately, except for the one noted in 1.

3. Chronophantasma Makes all illusions resummon themselves after performing their initial attack.

So you have at least one taunt, potentially more if the mesmer happens to dodge, an unblockable projectile that does damage and wipes your boons, vuln being applied to you, slow being applied to you, might being applied to the mesmer, and damage being applied to you for hitting the target taunting you.

And these phantasms can have their cooldowns refreshed instantly.And with Chronophantasma, they get summoned twice.And none of them require the mesmer to get in closer than 900r.And Continuum split refreshes the illusions recharges AND the signet that allows you to recharge the illusions.So, with a rotation, you can summon... 12, probably 18 phantasms (probably even more than that), that rip boons from the opponent, apply taunt to keep them from moving, put vuln on the opponent, grant the mesmer might, and slow the opponent.

Oh, and every time an illusion manifests, including when phantasms become clones, the mesmer heals.

And they started a season with mesmer in this state.And some mesmers are angry because people are complaining about screen clutter.And Mirage is still broken because someone thought it was a good idea to let mesmers also get out of stuns for free.

I don't understand the rationale behind letting this get through playtesting. Someone DID test this right?What I do understand, however, is that Signet of the Ether is not the only problem. Even without it, chronophantasma and cont. split will make the phantasms spammy.

Cap them at three.

My condolences to those braving ranked this season.

This dud 'main mesmer' but think signet if the problem...much wow

Capping the phantasms is an awful solution. It doesn't address the synergy between a specific trait and skill combination that is overperforming. But it affects the entire class, not to mention severely hamstrings everything mesmer does. In your rush to cap phantasms, you completely ignore how that will harm our ability to generate clones, since those are dependent on getting phantasms out.

SotE had its CD lowered, because as a heal its very lackluster for a 35 second CD. The active effect on it should be changed, and then almost every problem people have with illusion spam would go out the window, without needlessly nerfing the class. Sure, some of it would still be possible if you abuse CS. But wasting a 105 second CD to double up on a phantasm is not a great idea, in any situation. Not to mention its an incredibly limited opportunity, coming in at over 3x the CD of SotE.

@OriOri.8724 said:Capping the phantasms is an awful solution. It doesn't address the synergy between a specific trait and skill combination that is overperforming. But it affects the entire class, not to mention severely hamstrings everything mesmer does. In your rush to cap phantasms, you completely ignore how that will harm our ability to generate clones, since those are dependent on getting phantasms out.

Would it though? You would still be able to generate clones through passives and utilities. Is adding another set of illusion slots specifically for phantasms actually a hamstring, and if so can you give me a situation where that would be a substantial nerf? I'm not talking about jamming your clone slots with your active phantasms, but I also don't have a hundred hours on mesmer, so that would be appreciated.

SotE had its CD lowered, because as a heal its very lackluster for a 35 second CD. The active effect on it should be changed, and then almost every problem people have with illusion spam would go out the window, without needlessly nerfing the class. Sure, some of it would still be possible if you abuse CS. But wasting a 105 second CD to double up on a phantasm is not a great idea, in any situation. Not to mention its an incredibly limited opportunity, coming in at over 3x the CD of SotE.

That would tentatively help for Mirage and core. Chronos with the Chronophantasma gm would probably still be too strong.

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I went to go look at the chrono spec on paper.

Phantasmal Warlock does Damage (3x): 498 (0.45), and spawns two instances, at 1200 range. Each strike puts two stacks of vuln on you.Phantasmal Swordsman does Damage: 504 (0.5)?, and gives the mesmer 8 stacks of might if it hits, at 1200 range.Echo of Memory, if block channels, does Damage: 907 (0.9)? once the illusion gets out, at 900 range. It also slows you for 2 seconds, and gives the mesmer protection.Phantasmal Defender, once spawned, does a 900 range taunt for three seconds and at base does Damage: 452 (0.46)? This can increase up to 500% based on damage received, which makes its max damage raw 2,260.Phantasmal Disenchanter rips boons from your target at 900r, doing 400 damage if you have at least one boon, and 1,007 damage raw if you have no boons. It takes 5 boons off of you. This attack can bounce, so one instance can hit you multiple times. You can't block this.

You can have all of this on one build. note that none of the skills ever require you to get within 900r of your opponent.

1. With Mental Defense, you can cast another defender if you block or evade an attack. if you evade multiple attacks in one dodge, you can summon multiple defenders.

2. Signet of the Ether heals you for 350 on a 1 second interval whenever you summon an illusion. if you pop it it refreshes ALL of your phantasms immediately, except for the one noted in 1.

3. Chronophantasma Makes all illusions resummon themselves after performing their initial attack.

So you have at least one taunt, potentially more if the mesmer happens to dodge, an unblockable projectile that does damage and wipes your boons, vuln being applied to you, slow being applied to you, might being applied to the mesmer, and damage being applied to you for hitting the target taunting you.

And these phantasms can have their cooldowns refreshed instantly.And with Chronophantasma, they get summoned twice.And none of them require the mesmer to get in closer than 900r.And Continuum split refreshes the illusions recharges AND the signet that allows you to recharge the illusions.So, with a rotation, you can summon... 12, probably 18 phantasms (probably even more than that), that rip boons from the opponent, apply taunt to keep them from moving, put vuln on the opponent, grant the mesmer might, and slow the opponent.

Oh, and every time an illusion manifests, including when phantasms become clones, the mesmer heals.

And they started a season with mesmer in this state.And some mesmers are angry because people are complaining about screen clutter.And Mirage is still broken because someone thought it was a good idea to let mesmers also get out of stuns for free.

I don't understand the rationale behind letting this get through playtesting. Someone DID test this right?What I do understand, however, is that Signet of the Ether is not the only problem. Even without it, chronophantasma and cont. split will make the phantasms spammy.

Cap them at three.

My condolences to those braving ranked this season.

but hold up people are saying it's a Learn to Play Issue....No the class is unstoppable if played well it's capable of beating a 2vs1 on a node(seen it happen). The fact they have so much cluster out it benefits them WAY WAY WAY to much as to why they thought this was a good idea is beyond me, and i can promise you that NO testing was done at all just wouldn't make sense for them to release this and think it'll be ok.....

when i see 4 mesmer per a game in rank a day it's just comes down to who can play the class better and do the more damage for the team. A LOT of really bad players in the top 100 right now and it's sad but thankfully theirs a balance for this coming out next season right? Or wait.... maybe mid season balance again.

@OriOri.8724 said:Capping the phantasms is an awful solution. It doesn't address the synergy between a specific trait and skill combination that is overperforming. But it affects the entire class, not to mention severely hamstrings everything mesmer does. In your rush to cap phantasms, you completely ignore how that will harm our ability to generate clones, since those are dependent on getting phantasms out.

SotE had its CD lowered, because as a heal its very lackluster for a 35 second CD. The active effect on it should be changed, and then almost every problem people have with illusion spam would go out the window, without needlessly nerfing the class. Sure, some of it would still be possible if you abuse CS. But wasting a 105 second CD to double up on a phantasm is not a great idea, in any situation. Not to mention its an incredibly limited opportunity, coming in at over 3x the CD of SotE.

Well see that's the thing, Mesmer doesn't need to get hit with the nerf bat, it needs to get hit by a baseball bat that has nails in it.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@OriOri.8724 said:Capping the phantasms is an awful solution. It doesn't address the synergy between a specific trait and skill combination that is overperforming. But it affects the entire class, not to mention severely hamstrings everything mesmer does. In your rush to cap phantasms, you completely ignore how that will harm our ability to generate clones, since those are dependent on getting phantasms out.

It'd be just slightly better than pre-phantasm rework, but still not good. Like most mesmer mains will tell you the issue is CP+SotE as well as pretty much any other trait/skill that interacts with phantasms combined with Chronophantasma.

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I went to go look at the chrono spec on paper.

Phantasmal Warlock does Damage (3x): 498 (0.45), and spawns two instances, at 1200 range. Each strike puts two stacks of vuln on you.Phantasmal Swordsman does Damage: 504 (0.5)?, and gives the mesmer 8 stacks of might if it hits, at 1200 range.Echo of Memory, if block channels, does Damage: 907 (0.9)? once the illusion gets out, at 900 range. It also slows you for 2 seconds, and gives the mesmer protection.Phantasmal Defender, once spawned, does a 900 range taunt for three seconds and at base does Damage: 452 (0.46)? This can increase up to 500% based on damage received, which makes its max damage raw 2,260.Phantasmal Disenchanter rips boons from your target at 900r, doing 400 damage if you have at least one boon, and 1,007 damage raw if you have no boons. It takes 5 boons off of you. This attack can bounce, so one instance can hit you multiple times. You can't block this.

You can have all of this on one build. note that none of the skills ever require you to get within 900r of your opponent.

I'm new to some of this and a little confused:Phantasmal Swordsman is offhand SwordEcho of Memory is offhand ShieldPhantasmal Warlock is twohanded Staff

You can't have all three of these on the same build, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by being "on one build."

I've posted anoth today...I'm just gonna (ROLL MY EYES) instead. :/

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:I went to go look at the chrono spec on paper.

Phantasmal Warlock does Damage (3x): 498 (0.45), and spawns two instances, at 1200 range. Each strike puts two stacks of vuln on you.Phantasmal Swordsman does Damage: 504 (0.5)?, and gives the mesmer 8 stacks of might if it hits, at 1200 range.Echo of Memory, if block channels, does Damage: 907 (0.9)? once the illusion gets out, at 900 range. It also slows you for 2 seconds, and gives the mesmer protection.Phantasmal Defender, once spawned, does a 900 range taunt for three seconds and at base does Damage: 452 (0.46)? This can increase up to 500% based on damage received, which makes its max damage raw 2,260.Phantasmal Disenchanter rips boons from your target at 900r, doing 400 damage if you have at least one boon, and 1,007 damage raw if you have no boons. It takes 5 boons off of you. This attack can bounce, so one instance can hit you multiple times. You can't block this.

You can have all of this on one build. note that none of the skills ever require you to get within 900r of your opponent.

1. With Mental Defense, you can cast another defender if you block or evade an attack. if you evade multiple attacks in one dodge, you can summon multiple defenders.

2. Signet of the Ether heals you for 350 on a 1 second interval whenever you summon an illusion. if you pop it it refreshes ALL of your phantasms immediately, except for the one noted in 1.

3. Chronophantasma Makes all illusions resummon themselves after performing their initial attack.

So you have at least one taunt, potentially more if the mesmer happens to dodge, an unblockable projectile that does damage and wipes your boons, vuln being applied to you, slow being applied to you, might being applied to the mesmer, and damage being applied to you for hitting the target taunting you.

And these phantasms can have their cooldowns refreshed instantly.And with Chronophantasma, they get summoned twice.And none of them require the mesmer to get in closer than 900r.And Continuum split refreshes the illusions recharges AND the signet that allows you to recharge the illusions.So, with a rotation, you can summon... 12, probably 18 phantasms (probably even more than that), that rip boons from the opponent, apply taunt to keep them from moving, put vuln on the opponent, grant the mesmer might, and slow the opponent.

Oh, and every time an illusion manifests, including when phantasms become clones, the mesmer heals.

Phantasmal swordsman only gives might if the Mesmers melee strike hits you, it's also rooted while attackingAvenger has to charge into you, it doesn't deal it's damage from 900 range.Defenders radius is 240, although it could use a smaller cap on it's damage, 200 or 250% and maybe a reduced taunt duration.Disenchanter actually can't hit the same target multiple times, the projectile just goes away if there are not enough viable targets.

None of the skills require you to get in range of your target yes, but 3/5 require the phantasm to do so, and you can just walk away from 2 of them.

Mental Defense's Defender is bugged currently, the bug is what makes this a half decent trait otherwise I think it's appropriate for a GM tier provided both versions of Defender get their damage cap lowered to 250% or 200%

SotE, lots of mesmer mains agree that this is a problem, or that it's interaction with Chronophantasma is a problem.

Again, a lot of mesmer mains agree this is also a problem with it's ridiculous synergy with a lot of other traits in various lines.

Again, the might is only if the mesmer hits you with the melee part. Are you going to complain about the Vuln on Rapid Fire too? Or Bladestorm? Or Whirling Defense? Or Thunderclap or Shock Shield? On Death Spiral? Or basically the mountains of other skills and passive traits that apply Vuln with abandon?

Continuum Split only refreshes the illusion recharges if you spend your entire CS casting them and Signet of Ether and if you destroy the Continuum Rift, none of the skills get restored either. Continuum Split only lasts a maximum of 6 seconds too. Assuming you don't catch on and interrupt or dodge any of the summons, Chronomancer spamming phantasm skills frantically sure will get a lot of phantasms out because you were complacent AF. This is not to say Chronophantasma doesn't need to be reworked (it does). And the heal from SotE is a pithy 350.

It's ONE of the problems. Mirage is still broken as hell and it doesn't use the same playstyle. Chrono is an easy fix, just change chronophantasma to only spawn a clone after a phantasms dies and remove stability on shatter from Chaos traitline. A cap isn't going to fix the problem because phantasms expire quickly and as someone said earlier, can still be chained for massive damage. The good chronos already chain their phantasms instead of using everything at once.

Mirage on the otherhand is still ridiculously forgiving. Doesn't matter if you get outplayed with a well timed stun, just hit dodge. Remove dodge while CC'd and remove stunbreak from EM. EM now applies stability when you touch a mirage mirror. Sword ambush now requires a target and jaunt now has 2 charges.

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

Phantasmal swordsman only gives might if the Mesmers melee strike hits you, it's also rooted while attackingAvenger has to charge into you, it doesn't deal it's damage from 900 range.Defenders radius is 240, although it could use a smaller cap on it's damage, 200 or 250% and maybe a reduced taunt duration.Disenchanter actually can't hit the same target multiple times, the projectile just goes away if there are not enough viable targets.

None of the skills require you to get in range of your target yes, but 3/5 require the phantasm to do so, and you can just walk away from 2 of them.Mental Defense's Defender is bugged currently, the bug is what makes this a half decent trait otherwise I think it's appropriate for a GM tier provided both versions of Defender get their damage cap lowered to 250% or 200%

SotE, lots of mesmer mains agree that this is a problem, or that it's interaction with Chronophantasma is a problem.

Again, a lot of mesmer mains agree this is also a problem with it's ridiculous synergy with a lot of other traits in various lines.

Again, the might is only if the mesmer hits you with the melee part. Are you going to complain about the Vuln on Rapid Fire too? Or Bladestorm? Or Whirling Defense? Or Thunderclap or Shock Shield? On Death Spiral? Or basically the mountains of other skills and passive traits that apply Vuln with abandon?

Continuum Split only refreshes the illusion recharges if you spend your entire CS casting them and Signet of Ether and if you destroy the Continuum Rift, none of the skills get restored either. Continuum Split only lasts a maximum of 6 seconds too. Assuming you don't catch on and interrupt or dodge any of the summons, Chronomancer spamming phantasm skills frantically sure will get a lot of phantasms out because you were complacent AF. This is not to say Chronophantasma doesn't need to be reworked (it does). And the heal from SotE is a pithy 350.

I appreciate the feedback on this. I'm looking at this again to make sure I have the overperforming sections as isolated as possible.

Here’s a novel idea, remove phantasms altogether so the damage comes from the mesmer (and leaves behind a clone) and can actually benefit from damage mods, runes and sigils.

Then you no longer need to mess around with phantasm caps or worry about too many entities being too much for your pre millennium computer to render because there will be a limit of 3.

“Ah but what about if you shatter and summon a load while the current 3 are running to the target!?” Seriously get some swiftness to outrun them and auto attack at range, you’ll pretty much kill them in 2 shots regardless of build, usually 1. There’s no excuse for clones to live more than 10s, ever.

I would change Chronophantasm to increase damage to 50% and not have additional phantasm or simply not spawn a clone after the phantasms are done.

@Emtiarbi.3281 said:I would change Chronophantasm to increase damage to 50% and not have additional phantasm or simply not spawn a clone after the phantasms are done.

No. The game does not need 15k Phantasmal Disnenchanters, 30k Phantasmal Defenders, and 11k Illusionary Avengers.

Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether do not deserve to exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasms are balanced around doing one potentially game changing attack.

@FtoPScrub.5476 said:It's ONE of the problems. Mirage is still broken as hell and it doesn't use the same playstyle. Chrono is an easy fix, just change chronophantasma to only spawn a clone after a phantasms dies and remove stability on shatter from Chaos traitline. A cap isn't going to fix the problem because phantasms expire quickly and as someone said earlier, can still be chained for massive damage. The good chronos already chain their phantasms instead of using everything at once.

Mirage on the otherhand is still ridiculously forgiving. Doesn't matter if you get outplayed with a well timed stun, just hit dodge. Remove dodge while CC'd and remove stunbreak from EM. EM now applies stability when you touch a mirage mirror. Sword ambush now requires a target and jaunt now has 2 charges.

? CP already only summons a clone after it respawns once and then completes its attack. As to removing stab from BD. Again, BD is not overpowered, at all. Its not the problem, it just highlights the problem. Cutting down on phantasm spam will already be a heavy nerf to that synergy.

Also, lowering jaunt to 2 charges? What are you smoking?

Ayy another mesmer trying ro redirect anet to nerf the wrong things!Let me tell you a secret. This build works just fine with the well heal skill. Or mirage heal skill if you run a mirage variant.