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Phantasm amount reduction suggestions


eldenbri.1059

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I thought the thread started in these forums around Elusive Mind was a good proactive step. While it didn't necessarily lead to the nerf that most mesmers wanted, it at least put the topic on the table. In the current merged mesmer feedback thread, it's not really possible to get ongoing discussion around one particular idea. So I figured I would try to start a constructive thread here.

The premise of this thread is that it's currently possible to get too many phantasms active at once. This results in both visual clutter and (in many cases) higher than desirable bursts of damage. It's fine to say you disagree with the premise, but I'm hoping this thread can a collection of suggestions that many people can agree upon if the premise is valid.

There are several things that contribute to the problem. Both staff and shield can make two phantasms. Greatsword has the Imagined Burden trait that causes it to summon two berserkers. I think both staff and Imagnined Burden can be changed to give some other benefit instead of creating two phantasms (and I think this could include creating two clones from one phantasm because clones still have a cap of three). I think changes to shield may come in the next section, but one possibility is that it's a single cast skill with a shorter cooldown (though this does take away some of the skill in making sure the first shield use works). These seem like pretty simple places to change and balance.

The more complicated things that lead to excessive phantasms are the different doubling mechanisms: chronophantasma, continuum split, and signet of the ether. I think you need to address all of these, and I'm repeating and extending on some of the suggestions others have made. I'm not going to guess how easy or hard it is to implement a change.

Ammo approach

  • All phantasms are ammo skills with a single charge. It seems fine to set the ammo recharge time to match the skill recharge time. (It's possible that shield could give you back an ammo charge if you block on use of the first charge).
  • All phantasms have a minimum of time between charge usage (maybe something like 5 seconds - PowerLock is 4 so clearly this exists)
  • Chronophantasma adds one charge (but you can't cast twice within 5 seconds based on bullet two). Every phantasm created creates one clone (regardless of whether you have chronophantasma or not)
  • Signet of the ether restores one ammo charge to skills that allow it
  • Nothing changes within continuum split. If the desire is to ensure that it's never possible to use two charges inside the split, just set the minimum charge separation at 7 seconds. I don't know if the time between charge usage is preserved coming out of continuum split. It might require a change to make sure this happens so that you don't get three phantasms cast in continuum split, and then three more immediately after the split ends.

Cooldown approach

  • All phantasms are single cast
  • Chronophantasma reduces the cooldown of phantasm skills (but does not create a second phantasm)
  • Signet of the ether refunds cooldown duration
  • Note that with this approach, I don't see how you prevent casting two or three phantasms during continuum split and then immediately again afterwards.

Change trait/skill

  • Make chronophantasma do something different than create a second phantasm (e.g. it increases damage by 50% on phantasms and creates an extra clone)
  • Make signet of the ether do something different than allow recasting phantasms (e.g. phantasm attacks during 10 seconds after use do 50% more damage)

There are other approaches that reduce damage, but do not reduce number of phantasms on the screen at once, but I'm looking for suggestions to solve the premise as stated.

Other suggestions?

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I'd be ok if staff phantasm was single but still resulted in spawning 2 clones when it died - that's one part of the skill I hope remains intact.

Tbh I really don't know which option I prefer for this problem.

I think Chronophantasma should be changed to the following:

  • all phantasms cast their attack twice in the same life (with delay in between as phantasms used to be)
  • if the phantasm is killed/interrupted it despawns straight into a clone.

That way if you kill/interrupt the phantasm it negates the whole thing. BUT this would still keep it relevant for PvE because of the reduced damage to illusions so they will always survive to get off two attacks.

It could make the trait less desirable in pvp, however I still think with alacrity, CSplit, SoE and the number of phantasms available it will still have a place - but there is more counterplay to cleave the phantasms and negate it.

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Thx @Curunen.8729 I think the double attack from a single phantasm is a good option for chronophantasma

@"RabbitUp.8294" Like I say at the start, it's totally fair to disagree with the premise. Right now, there's a 28-page thread that moderators merged that has an endless series of posts with requests to nerf mesmers (and some mesmers defending against nerfs). As I read the thread, there are three basic complaints:

  • phantasm spam (which I'm trying to address here)
  • mirage survivability while still being able to deal a lot of damage (which I'm not qualified to comment on)
  • and (maybe) burst ability for multiple mesmer builds (especially from stealth)

My hope is that the mesmer community can come up with suggestions here like people did when suggesting changes to Elusive Mind.

This is the giant merged feedback threadhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/34577/feedback-on-the-state-of-the-mesmer-merged#latest

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

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@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

I can't believe I'm having to argue in favour of nerfs here given that previously I've been defending this class from the excessive amount of hateful ranting in the pvp forum, but the reality is the high amount of ai clutter possible through CSplit, SoE, and Chronophantasma (together with double phantasm casts like staff 3, as well as things like shield 4, nevermind all the alacrity with boon synergy that allows extremely fast cooldown such that it's a constant spam of phantasms) is a visual mess and unhealthy for the game.

Sure I'm fortunate playing mirage because it's pretty much the one thing that dominates these chronos, but have you fought any good ones, or even when there's more than one on a team? It's not helping the state of the game. They're even seeping into wvw now - still uncommon due to being unoptimised for the game mode, but I've come across a few while roaming.

In any case the reason I suggested two attacks in one life is to keep it intact for pve so pretty much nothing changes for pve, but there would at least be more counterplay for other classes in pvp.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

Oh come on that's such an exaggeration. Edit - the two attacks per one phantasm life will be negligable change in pve, apart from persistence of memory/phantasmal force boon stacking (which also benefits the pvp build by reducing boon access). If they need to buff pve dps then in the spirit of skill splits they can split phantasm damage outputs and buff skills accordingly.

pvp (and wvw) continues to exist no matter how much you continue to hate it, and the phantasm spam isn't good for that aspect of the game.

Bottom line is it's better to offer suggestions in here than sit back and wait for Anet to nerf it - because I would bet my gw2 account that they will eventually balance the chrono pvp phantasm spam one way or another, with or without our input. I'd rather the core of the build remained playable for the sake of variety, but with reduced visual clutter.

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@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp due to various trait/skill interactions, there's no way it will be left as it is.

Better to construct some ideas on this forum than wait for Anet to potentially nuke it all into irrelevance.

Since when is pvp dominated by chronophantasma chronos? You are focusing on a niche build.

Bunker Chrono is not a niche build, it is a god-tier duelist and is a frequent appearance winning in Automated Tournaments and in high rated League games. It is unambiguously a top tier build. Mesmer currently has several top tier builds.

Chronophantasma was my favorite trait in the entire game for a long, long time. But it just shouldn't exist in this form in a post rework world where phantasmas are all now exceptionally powerful to compensate for them only doing one attack instead of as many attacks as they can across an entire fight. It is insane to expect players to potentially have to avoid the taunt of 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders in a row, all of which have potentially fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid four phantasmal defenders, all of which can have fight ending ramifications. It is insane to expect players to avoid 3-4 Illusionary Avengers, all of which can have fight ending consequences.

Even if it wasn't absurdly overpowered, it shouldn't exist in this form because of the truely insane amount of screenclutter and visual noise it causes. One Chrono is potentially worse than the entire zoo meta of old combined.

@Levetty.1279 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.
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@Curunen.8729 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

Oh come on that's such an exaggeration. Edit - the two attacks per one phantasm life will be negligable change in pve, apart from persistence of memory/phantasmal force boon stacking (which also benefits the pvp build by reducing boon access). If they need to buff pve dps then in the spirit of skill splits they can split phantasm damage outputs and buff skills accordingly.

pvp (and wvw) continues to exist no matter how much you continue to hate it, and the phantasm spam isn't good for that aspect of the game.

Bottom line is it's better to offer suggestions in here than sit back and wait for Anet to nerf it - because I would bet my gw2 account that they will eventually balance the chrono pvp phantasm spam one way or another, with or without our input. I'd rather the core of the build remained playable for the sake of variety, but with reduced visual clutter.

Its pretty telling that when Anet finally starts regularly doing PvP/PvE skill splits that balance demands change from damage to removing mechanics.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Yeah who cares about fun in a video game.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:How about leaving things as is?

Phantasm spam/screen clutter is pretty broken in pvp

Considering PvP is won by the people who are most willing to pay for the win I'm not sure why you are advocating destroying Mesmer in PvE again.

Oh come on that's such an exaggeration. Edit - the two attacks per one phantasm life will be negligable change in pve, apart from persistence of memory/phantasmal force boon stacking (which also benefits the pvp build by reducing boon access). If they need to buff pve dps then in the spirit of skill splits they can split phantasm damage outputs and buff skills accordingly.

pvp (and wvw) continues to exist no matter how much you continue to hate it, and the phantasm spam isn't good for that aspect of the game.

Bottom line is it's better to offer suggestions in here than sit back and wait for Anet to nerf it - because I would bet my gw2 account that they will eventually balance the chrono pvp phantasm spam one way or another, with or without our input. I'd rather the core of the build remained playable for the sake of variety, but with reduced visual clutter.

Its pretty telling that when Anet finally starts regularly doing PvP/PvE skill splits that balance demands change from damage to removing mechanics.

You could delete Chronophantamsa and real PvE mesmers will be uneffected. Boonshare Chronos run Seize the Moment over Chronophantasma. DPS Mirages can't run Chronophantasma. DPS Chronomancer is the only PvE build that runs Chronophantasma and who cares really? Mesmers have a better DPS spec already, a spec that should be the meta dps build, and Support Chrono is mandatory in fractals and Raids.

Yeah who cares about fun in a video game.

I don't know about you, but I'm having a ball. I'm having lots of fun with Phantasmal Swordman doing tons of damage. I love the downstate pressure those things can dish out on Demo Mirage and how buffed my damage is when I offtank chrono and just quality of life when playing the game. I'm loving the collasal nuking capabilities of the Phantasmal Mage when I'm on condimirage. Seriously, if you can bait their condition cleanse early, Phantasmal Mage+The Prestige is going to just delete just about any other player. I'm loving getting two clones from Phantasmal Warlock on Staff and they do a solid amount of damage. Phantasmal defender is a hillariously trollish ability and managing to nuke someone with it is hilarious. And Phantasmal Disenchanter is godly.

And when all of our phantasms are as individually powerful as they currently are because they've been rebalanced for the rework, a single trait that gives you two of them (Or four for stuff like Imagined Burden and Phantasmal Warlock) is cataclysmically overpowered. It's extremely unhealthy in the game not only just because of how absurdly powerful it is, but also the visual noise caused is just gamebreakingly unhealthy all on it's own.

And if Chronophantasma gets deleted I will continue to have fun in both PvP and PvE.

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Power Chrono is 5th or 6th (I think off the top of my head) in DPS rankings, how is the trait overpowered?

If you are having fun with all those things then why do you want them removed? You are pretty naive if you think they will stop complaining once Chronophantasma gets gutted.

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Ammo approach

  • All phantasms are ammo skills with a single charge. It seems fine to set the ammo recharge time to match the skill recharge time. (It's possible that shield could give you back an ammo charge if you block on use of the first charge).
  • All phantasms have a minimum of time between charge usage (maybe something like 5 seconds - PowerLock is 4 so clearly this exists)
  • Chronophantasma adds one charge (but you can't cast twice within 5 seconds based on bullet two). Every phantasm created creates one clone (regardless of whether you have chronophantasma or not)
  • Signet of the ether restores one ammo charge to skills that allow it
  • Nothing changes within continuum split. If the desire is to ensure that it's never possible to use two charges inside the split, just set the minimum charge separation at 7 seconds. I don't know if the time between charge usage is preserved coming out of continuum split. It might require a change to make sure this happens so that you don't get three phantasms cast in continuum split, and then three more immediately after the split ends.

Cooldown approach

  • All phantasms are single cast
  • Chronophantasma reduces the cooldown of phantasm skills (but does not create a second phantasm)
  • Signet of the ether refunds cooldown duration
  • Note that with this approach, I don't see how you prevent casting two or three phantasms during continuum split and then immediately again afterwards.

Change trait/skill

  • Make chronophantasma do something different than create a second phantasm (e.g. it increases damage by 50% on phantasms and creates an extra clone)
  • Make signet of the ether do something different than allow recasting phantasms (e.g. phantasm attacks during 10 seconds after use do 50% more damage)

There are other approaches that reduce damage, but do not reduce number of phantasms on the screen at once, but I'm looking for suggestions to solve the premise as stated.

Other suggestions?

Regarding the ammo approach, I think it's a nonstarter. It' absurd to expect players to have to stunbreak or cleanse taunt from 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders or die. It's absurd to expect players to dodge 3 Phantasmal Disenchanters or die. It's aburd to expect them to avoid potentially 6 Illusionary Avengers. And chances are, you're not just dealing with any one of those. You'll be dealing with all of them.

Continuum Split I consider fine as it actually involves skill, timing, a very lengthy cooldown and truly getting the most out of it requires preparing clones for it which means chancers are you've already had to cast some of your Phantasms already.

Cooldown approach makes the most sense, but Chronomancer is unambiguously overtuned and it doesn't address that.

Chronophantasm just doesn't deserve to exist in this form when Phantasms are this powerful. Doing something like adding a 50% increase on Phantasms is already a nonstarter. The game does not need 15k Phantasmal Disenchanters. It does not need 30k Phantasmal Defenders. It doesn't need 10k Phantasmal Avengers. Honestly, turning Chronophantasma into just "Phantasm Skills spawn an Additional Clone" would already good enough on it's own.

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@Levetty.1279 said:Power Chrono is 5th or 6th (I think off the top of my head) in DPS rankings, how is the trait overpowered?

If you are having fun with all those things then why do you want them removed? You are pretty naive if you think they will stop complaining once Chronophantasma gets gutted.

Chronomancer is a defensive, supportive quality of life specialization. I actually don't see too much of a point in fretting about it's potential DPS. It's like fretting about Berserker's ability to tank raid encounters. Mirage is the intended DPS elite specialization. PvE mesmer will be just fine without Chronophantasma. Chronophantasma made sense in a world where Boonshare Chronos need their two Avengers for permanent Alacrity and want their third damage phantasm the whole fight and losing all of that to contiuum split or distort would be too punishing. We do not live in that world anymore.

And here's the thing. All of those awesome phantasms will continue to be game changing without Chronophantasma. But with Chronophantasmal they are gamebreakingly overpowered.

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@Levetty.1279 said:Once again Power Chrono is 5th or 6th (I think off the top of my head) in DPS rankings, how is Chronophantasma trait overpowered?

In pvp it's overpowered with the new phantasm mechanics because an opponent can neither counterplay by cleaving phantasms or be able to dodge all the attacks (unless mirage). Given how powerful things like disenchater, defender etc are right now that makes for an awful experience for every spec other than mirage which is capable of beating it. In addition persistence of memory, phantasmal haste and phantasmal force synergise far too well in terms of personal boon stacking with the constant phantasm spawning/despawning of chronophantsma together with Chaos boon synergy, nevermind alacrity, CSplit and signet of ether (similar to how S1 chronobunker had ludicrous synergy between restorative illusions, mental defence, old chronophantasma, shield 4, old persistence of memory, alacrity, old illusionary reversion, etc).

Finally the sheer quantity of AI clutter is a mess with gw2's targeting mechanics especially in team fights.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

Regarding the ammo approach, I think it's a nonstarter. It' absurd to expect players to have to stunbreak or cleanse taunt from 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders or die. It's absurd to expect players to dodge 3 Phantasmal Disenchanters or die. It's aburd to expect them to avoid potentially 6 Illusionary Avengers. And chances are, you're not just dealing with any one of those. You'll be dealing with all of them.

I may not be explaining the ammo approach very well. What I'm suggesting is that there's a minimum time between using charges (like PowerLock). I'm guessing somewhere between 5 and 8 seconds is fine.

So with chronophantasma, you could cast one berserker (for example), but you couldn't use the second charge for 5 - 8 seconds. So you can never get two berserkers on the screen at the same time.

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Fuck it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

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@eldenbri.1059 said:

Regarding the ammo approach, I think it's a nonstarter. It' absurd to expect players to have to stunbreak or cleanse taunt from 4-6 Phantasmal Defenders or die. It's absurd to expect players to dodge 3 Phantasmal Disenchanters or die. It's aburd to expect them to avoid potentially 6 Illusionary Avengers. And chances are, you're not just dealing with any one of those. You'll be dealing with all of them.

I may not be explaining the ammo approach very well. What I'm suggesting is that there's a minimum time between using charges (like PowerLock). I'm guessing somewhere between 5 and 8 seconds is fine.

So with chronophantasma, you could cast one berserker (for example), but you couldn't use the second charge for 5 - 8 seconds. So you can never get two berserkers on the screen at the same time.

Defender and Disenchanter are both already so powerful they can completely flip a fight with their current 40 and 30 second cooldowns respectively without Chronophantasma. Even if the ammo charge was something like a full on 40 second charge cooldown, with a 20 second internal cooldown between charge uses it would still be crazy powerful. Same with Disenchanter if charges had a 30 Cooldown with a 15 second cooldown between charge uses.

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@"Levetty.1279" said:kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

I get that it's a lot of fun, but sometimes things that are fun are also extremely unhealthy for the game. There's a reason Reapers with infinite Rise! minions got nipped in the bud quickly.

phLoZhs.jpg

This is not healthy for the game. Heck, at this point I have to imagine that it's extremely unhealthy for the game's servers to have this much player summoned AI running around.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Levetty.1279" said:kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

I get that it's a lot of fun, but sometimes things that are fun are also extremely unhealthy for the game. There's a reason Reapers with infinite Rise! minions got nipped in the bud quickly.

phLoZhs.jpg

This is not healthy for the game. Heck, at this point I have to imagine that it's extremely unhealthy for the game's servers to have this much player summoned AI running around.

I already told you you are right. I presume you agree with my lists of changes to get Mesmer balanced in PvP. PvP is important, you do want PvP to be balanced right.

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@Levetty.1279 said:kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

That's like the complete antithesis to the hate filled emotional ranting on the pvp forums - neither helps the state of the game.

As surprising as it might seem, if you ignore the extraneous salt and misguided nerf calls for every class over the years, it is possible to maintain pvp combat in a state where it continues to be fun - because it has been fun, extremely fun, on many occasions in the past and is still fun (in some ways even more so) in many ways now.

For the record I don't want to remove chronophantasma, hence my suggestion.

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@Curunen.8729 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

That's like the complete antithesis to the hate filled emotional ranting on the pvp forums - neither helps the state of the game.

As surprising as it might seem, if you ignore the extraneous salt and misguided nerf calls for every class over the years, it is possible to maintain pvp combat in a state where it continues to be fun - because it has been fun, extremely fun, on many occasions in the past and is still fun (in some ways even more so) in many ways now.

I know thats why I have come up with a list of changes to make Mesmer balanced. I presume you also agree with them because you want Mesmer balanced right? It is a pretty sound list and I doubt people can find a flaw with the reasoning.

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@Levetty.1279 said:

@Levetty.1279 said:kitten it you guys win. Who needs a fun and interesting mechanic lets remove Chronophantasma.

In fact probably better to just remove Phantasms, make the Mesmer preform the attack.

And should clones really be doing damage? Should Mesmers be able to get their clones to preform an attack? Lets remove Infinite Horizons.

Clones are still pretty distracting though, maybe just have them as a UI resource? Adrenaline is pretty good lets give Mesmer that. Nerf shatters obviously because you can't kill clones now.

Mind Spike already removes a boon, should it really do more damage if you hit a target that doesn't have one? Should it really do damage if its already removing a boon? Lets just remove that attack too tricky to figure it out. You still have a 2 skill auto chain its no problem.

Mirage can evade while using Axes of Symmetry so we will remove evade from that.

Traits that effect skills might cause too much synergy we should replace all traits with a bunch of passive stats boosts ones. Necros condi chains and Guardian symbols are fine shut up. I don't even know how something like Mirage Mantle + Renewing Oasis + Illusionary Membrane got in the game, who thought that was a good idea.

Greatswords are melee weapons why does its attacks have 1200 range?

Does Sword really need 3 skills? That immobilize on skill 3 synergises too well with skill 2.

All these condis are a bit hard to remember, don't you think we should cut them down to maybe 2? 2 seems like a number we can remember. Should probably remove some boons as well so that UI is easier to read.

I get that it's a lot of fun, but sometimes things that are fun are also extremely unhealthy for the game. There's a reason Reapers with infinite Rise! minions got nipped in the bud quickly.

phLoZhs.jpg

This is not healthy for the game. Heck, at this point I have to imagine that it's extremely unhealthy for the game's servers to have this much player summoned AI running around.

I already told you you are right. I presume you agree with my lists of changes to get Mesmer balanced in PvP. PvP is important, you do want PvP to be balanced right.

Even as a mesmer having to deal with the visual clutter of fighting another mesmer is a mirror match is not particularly fun or interesting.

IcuVWrD.jpg

This is not fun. It makes the game a complete mess, even if you win.

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