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My predictions on how LWS4 will play out.


Sajuuk Khar.1509

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Based on some "rumors" about what future maps we will get, and how many releases S4 will have, I put together a rough estimation on how I think LWS4 will play out.

-Ep1: Daybreak(already out obviously)-- Kralkatorik sends forces to attack Amnoon, we go to Istan based on Aurene's vision, help the local Sunspears out, and find out Joko has returned.-Ep2: Bug in the System(also already out obviously)--We find where Joko has been launching his attacks on Tyria from and shut it down, but Joko escapes, and takes with him the scarab plague he took from the Inquest. Make new allies in the Olmakhan.-Ep3--We follow Joko's trail into Kourna, and go to Gandara, where Joko is keeping his forces for a larger invasion of Tyira, and the scarab plague, stopping the imminent threat of invasion for the time being.-Ep4--Joko, having escaped again after our last encounter, falls back to Jahai to try to mount some sort of revenge against us. We go to Jahai, meet up with the Order of Whispers(who are hinted to still be around in the Chantry of Secrets). We fight, and eventually defeat(though not kill or actually dethrone) Joko over Jahai, because historical parallels are a video game writer's wet dream.-Ep5--With Joko out of the picture, we gather the various allies we have made in Elona in the region near where the old Sunspear Sanctuary in Kourna was(possibly even meeting up with some Kournan Sunspear group) as a means to amass some sort of force to reach Kralkatorik, and end him for good.-Ep6--We actually go after Kralkatorik with our makeshift force of Desert/Vabbi/Istan/Kournan Sunspears, the Order of Whispers/Shadows, the Olmakhan, Sayida the Sly and her corsair crew, and any other groups Anet mcguffins into the plot before then. We use whatever magical mcguffin thing Taimi and the Full Metal Brothers make up to beat Kralkatorik, and transfer its magic cycling powers to Aurene so the balance is maintained.

Now, its been rumored that LWS4 will have 7 releases, and the above only lists 6, the 7th is a bit off a toss up, eitherA. We go to the Blood Legion Homelands area, where Kralkatorik was sleeping for 10,000 years, in order to obtain some mcguffin needed for Taimi and the FMA borther's device(this based off the fact that said region was altered as part of the same map alterations that suggested the Dakjah, Gandara, and Jahai maps.B. Episode 7 will be some post Kralkatorik curve ball episode were we go back to Tyria for some reason, only for the situation to devolve as we learn about whatever the next Elder Dragon Anet wants us to fight is doing, leading into Xpack 4.I'm leaning toward option A though.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Based on some "rumors" about what future maps we will get, and how many releases S4 will have, I put together a rough estimation on how I think LWS4 will play out.

-Ep1: Daybreak(already out obviously)-- Kralkatorik sends forces to attack Amnoon, we go to Istan based on Aurene's vision, help the local Sunspears out, and find out Joko has returned.-Ep2: Bug in the System(also already out obviously)--We find where Joko has been launching his attacks on Tyria from and shut it down, but Joko escapes, and takes with him the scarab plague he took from the Inquest. Make new allies in the Olmakhan.-Ep3--We follow Joko's trail into Kourna, and go to Gandara, where Joko is keeping his forces for a larger invasion of Tyira, and the scarab plague, stopping the imminent threat of invasion for the time being.-Ep4--Joko, having escaped again after our last encounter, falls back to Jahai to try to mount some sort of revenge against us. We go to Jahai, meet up with the Order of Whispers(who are hinted to still be around in the Chantry of Secrets). We fight, and eventually defeat(though not kill or actually dethrone) Joko over Jahai, because historical parallels are a video game writer's wet dream.-Ep5--With Joko out of the picture, we gather the various allies we have made in Elona in the region near where the old Sunspear Sanctuary in Kourna was(possibly even meeting up with some Kournan Sunspear group) as a means to amass some sort of force to reach Kralkatorik, and end him for good.-Ep6--We actually go after Kralkatorik with our makeshift force of Desert/Vabbi/Istan/Kournan Sunspears, the Order of Whispers/Shadows, the Olmakhan, Sayida the Sly and her corsair crew, and any other groups Anet mcguffins into the plot before then. We use whatever magical mcguffin thing Taimi and the Full Metal Brothers make up to beat Kralkatorik, and transfer its magic cycling powers to Aurene so the balance is maintained.

Now, its been rumored that LWS4 will have 7 releases, and the above only lists 6, the 7th is a bit off a toss up, eitherA. We go to the Blood Legion Homelands area, where Kralkatorik was sleeping for 10,000 years, in order to obtain some mcguffin needed for Taimi and the FMA borther's device(this based off the fact that said region was altered as part of the same map alterations that suggested the Dakjah, Gandara, and Jahai maps.B. Episode 7 will be some post Kralkatorik curve ball episode were we go back to Tyria for some reason, only for the situation to devolve as we learn about whatever the next Elder Dragon Anet wants us to fight is doing, leading into Xpack 4.I'm leaning toward option A though.

I think the episode 3 will be the last for Joko, he will be finally finished, Ep 4,5 and 6 will be all about Kralkatorrik, and the 7th episode will be a summary with a cinematic in the end of of it.

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@Arden.7480 said:I think the episode 3 will be the last for Joko, he will be finally finished, Ep 4,5 and 6 will be all about Kralkatorrik, and the 7th episode will be a summary with a cinematic in the end of of it.I feel like that would be a bit too soon, and a bit too quick, to end Joko.

Kralkatorik on the other hand doesn't need as much time devoted to him since PoF already did most of the Kralkatorik plot stuff in it. All we really need at this point is for Taimi and the FMA brothers to make some device to beat him, and us to march on his lair and kill him.

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Hi. I really like the idea of us returning to Kourna, and I think we are likely to go there soon, with Gandara and Jahai being really probable and awesome locations.

However, I think that the scenario you describe focus way too much over one plot: chasing and fighting Joko. It's obviously a huge part of the story, which I hope will be brought to a conclusion. Nevertheless, there are two major plotlines that need to be adressed simultaneously:

  • Kralkatorrik and its damage over Elona, a significant threat that , both we and Joko actually, will have to deal with
  • Bringing balance into magic, which requires gathering informations ans understand the role of Aurene

In LWS3, we had three plotlines: Elder dragons being active (Jormag and Primordius), the rise of the white mantle, and Lazarus/Balthazar coming into actions. These differents plots where adressed one after another and finally interconnected. A story must never feel too linear and one dimensionnal. We probably going to gather forces and informations, both to stop Joko and find a way to deal with Kralkatorrik.

Finally, Anet needs to bring up the future extension. As it is going to takes place somewhere else, we need a serious twist to bring us there in a consistent a serious way (better than: "message from Tyria: Jormag has launched a new attack).So, lot of things to be done in 4-5 episodes. As we can't leave Elona while Joko and Kralkatorrik are in place, we are likely to fight them both, though We are likely not to kill Joko but at best bethrone him and force him to exile by making him lost control over the awakened. I want to turn him into ashes more than everything but on the other hand, he's too good as a vilain to disappear so soon.

So, my personnal predictions (more like some personal fantasy on how I would maybe deal with it):

  • episode 3: while trying to localize Joko, we approach the mountains where Kralkatorrik is stationned, contemplating how he destroy the land. We try to figure out a way to stop him. In parallel, Bottica acompany us and meet with Rytlock, the two of them confronting their different point of view over charrs. In the end, we are joined by airships of the Pact responding to our call at the end of episode 1, gathering an expeditionnary force led by Almorra Soulkeeper and (let's dream) Zojja and Caithe. There, we may find a clue on how to bring balance to magic and swear with our ancient friends to protect Tyria.

  • episode 4: We go the domain of Kourna and lead a rebellion against Joko, already ingited by the sunspears and order of shadows. The airships allow us to crush the best assets of Joko and take Gandara. Yet, we found that Joko's main forces has moved North to attack Tyria. Joko send us a personnal invitation to meet him, threatening to unleash the scarab plague, now hidden , if we refuse to collaborate and try any other moves. The fear of the king's retaliation begin to undermine the spirit of the rebellion.

  • episode 5: while travelling to the desolation in a desesperate attempt to confront Joko, we meet with mysterious people (E at last, plus Livia) coming with a plan that can help us to eradicate Joko and solve the problem of magic. We begin a quest for the lost staff of the mist. Joko find out our plan but he's unable to stop us. He finally escaped after a tough fight, promising us to wage complete destruction over Tyria. While we go to EbonHawke to prepare for battle, E and Cie stay behind to prepare someting against Kralkattorik. Livia on the other hand, go after Joko.

  • episode 6: We rally the charrs legion and humans to EbonHawke, ready to face Joko's army coming from the crystal desert. Bu before the battle begin, an unexpected threat strike us from behind: flame legion, rallied by Joko. As we are forced to fight on two sides, the battle turns into a nightmare. Smodur the inflinching himself find death on the battlefield. As the legion disband, bottica take the claw of the khan-hur on the corpse of the imperator and rally the charrs with the help of Rytlock and other Tribunes, eventually driving flame legion away and killing their leader (not imperator but warchief). But meanwhile, we are captured by the awakened and bring before Joko. There, he forces us to watch as his army charges once again, then reveal us his intentions to infect us with the scarab plague, "turning the noble hero of Tyrians into the awful monster they're all gone curse. But fear not. They will soon forget you once I grant them the cure and become there new hero. Well, at least when they submit". But then, all awakened start to act weirdly, some even attacking Joko. Livia, using the scepter of Orr, erase the link between the lich and all his minions, putting an end to their slavery. We seize the occasion to attack Joko and take him down. We cannot kill him however and he rises again. However, we found him seriously and take back the scarab plague. As he unleash his powers over us , we escape flying over Aurene, letting Joko alone to comtemplate the defeat of his army.

  • episode 7: We lead the ultimate assault over Kralkattorik, with the special dedication of Destiny's Edge and Almorra. We finally end up, not killing him, but destroying his will, turning him into a giant statue of crystal over the mountains. The magic is still within him but it doesn't unleash corruption anymore. The djinn plans to regulate this magic with the help of the staff of the mists, until Aurene and others beings are capable to assume the role of the elder dragons, thus ensuring a temporary balance. In Elona, the end of Joko's tyranny bring many celebration but also dissension: while some still worship him and take control over his well-established administration, other claims arise. In Ascalon, the remaining imperators gathers to adress the threat of the flame legion, whose strange new power and technology poses a serious threat. Bottica, hero of the last battle and still in possession of the claw, swear to bring her people on a new path. A new war is about to be waged in the North, while Elona is still not at rest and Joko still alive. The commander, along with destiny's edge and Dragon's watch united at last, decide, on the advise of E and his guild, to go around the world find the receptacles and artefacts that could allow Tyria to safely get rid of Elder dragons once and for all. And the next destination is North. But beyond the far shiverpeaks, a storm like the world never see is approaching, foreshadowing the wrath of Jormag.

Leading to Guild wars 2: Beyond the Storm

Yes, the end makes little senses but I don't often try speculations.

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@"ugrakarma.9416" said:Assembling a big army to kill Joko and kill Kralkatorric after, is a very predictable plot. But since LS3 was full of "plot twists" and "last minute big reveals", i do not rule out the possibility that they have chosen a more straight path in LS4.I don't think we will kill Joko, I doubt we will even actually dethrone him, we will just do something to subvert his army's ability to invade central Tyira.

Throughout PoF, and especially in Daybreak, we have been slowly undermining Joko's reign throughout Elona, by eliminating many of his top leaders, and encouraging rebellious spirit among the locals. I would assume LWS4 will end with Joko still in power, but Elona starting to actively rise up against him outside of the small resistances put forth by the Sunspears and Order of Shadows, and we will leave with the knowledge that Elona is heading to a better place.

I mean, we MIGHT dethrone Joko, but I don't see us actually killing him. Not even the Order could do so after years of trying using every mundane and magical means available to them after turai beat him the first time. At worst, he will be locked up again.

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Ok, here is my extended prediction:

The End of Season 4 and possible date of Expansion 3

First of all the date of the ending of this Season:Ep 1- November, 2017Ep 2- March, 2018Ep 3- May, 2018Ep 4- July, 2018Ep 5- September, 2018Ep 6- November, 2018Ep 7- February/March, 2019

(based on the scheme since Out of the Shadows)

They are probably going to make the same break as for HoT for Expansion 3, that in my opinion will be released on July/September, 2019. (One Quarterly Update will be released on May- I think introducing mounts to WvW, fractals and raids not permanently, but as something to test).

Attack on Rata Sum- the last most important Asura's base

Introducing Gorrik and Blish give some new opportunities to stop Joko- first of all Gorrik is a bug specialist, and Blish told us in the end of Ep 2 that he saved the research on Kralkatorrik.

I think Ep 3 will be last for Joko, because he is threatening the whole World, especially Tyria, so I wouldn't be surprised if he dies in Ep 3, but Episode 3 will be probably something like Taimi's episodes in LS3- doing some review, slow down and check Gorrik's and Blish's researches that may give some breakthrough. We'll probably move to Rata Sum, eventually to Rata Novus at the beginning, Rytlock, Braham, Rox and Canach will be involved to this episode, while I think Ep 4 will be more about Kasmeer and Marjory and their work in Kourna.

Then suddenly we'll hear alarm all over Rata Sum, Joko will attack the last most important Asura's location, the new map will be north of Rata Sum- https://imgur.com/a/RIwxF

Zojja and the end of Joko

It'll probably be something like The Head of the Snake, Rata Sum will make a barrier around it, while Joko will command his army somewhere in a new map. I think the united forces of Asura, maybe even the Inquest and other races like Sylvari will defend Rata Sum.

Also as The Head of the Snake introduced Logan, Ep 3 will involve Zojja again, it will also be pretty symbolic, because it will be a year after THe Head of the Snake was released, also it was the culmination of Season 3- the attack on the city. So it'd be really great to do something like that.

Joko will retreat to his palace in the end, and at the end of this episode we will be going to the Desolation and putting an end to Joko.

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I find it interesting that everyone here seems to agree that S4 will move at a breakneck pace. I'm not saying they're bound to do it again, but fully a third of S3- episodes 3 and 6- wound up having little or no bearing on the main plot threads. A Crack In the Ice was a Jormag-themed redux of the meat of Rising Flames (which itself didn't show us anything we wouldn't have seen in Flashpoint) plus a dramatic moment from Braham that ultimately went nowhere. One Path Ends was a bit of cleanup, providing closure after the season's bait-and-switch, but it didn't move our character any closer to any of their goals, or at least, not in a way that couldn't have been more elegantly done elsewhere.

If we factor in a couple filler/red herring episodes like that, I think seven would be about enough to comfortably accommodate Joko, or to set up more to come with both Joko and Kralkatorrik, but I can't see them resolving both. I may end up eating crow on this, but I also can't see the new asura siblings- a bug and a portal specialist- providing anything groundbreaking to handle Kralkatorrik, Inquest or no. Unless we make the switch next episode and then stick with it, leaving the Scarab Plague unresolved, I don't think there's realistically space to provide any kind of satisfactory end to that plotline before the next expansion/season.

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Where did this "seven episodes" thing come from? This is the first I've heard about it as a legit "rumor" and not just people saying "six would be too short" or something when they do exactly what OP is doing: predicting the plot of Season 4 in a way that squeezes both Joko's and Kralkatorrik's defeats in it.

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:I find it interesting that everyone here seems to agree that S4 will move at a breakneck pace. I'm not saying they're bound to do it again, but fully a third of S3- episodes 3 and 6- wound up having little or no bearing on the main plot threads. A Crack In the Ice was a Jormag-themed redux of the meat of Rising Flames (which itself didn't show us anything we wouldn't have seen in Flashpoint) plus a dramatic moment from Braham that ultimately went nowhere. One Path Ends was a bit of cleanup, providing closure after the season's bait-and-switch, but it didn't move our character any closer to any of their goals, or at least, not in a way that couldn't have been more elegantly done elsewhere.

If we factor in a couple filler/red herring episodes like that, I think seven would be about enough to comfortably accommodate Joko, or to set up more to come with both Joko and Kralkatorrik, but I can't see them resolving both. I may end up eating crow on this, but I also can't see the new asura siblings- a bug and a portal specialist- providing anything groundbreaking to handle Kralkatorrik, Inquest or no. Unless we make the switch next episode and then stick with it, leaving the Scarab Plague unresolved, I don't think there's realistically space to provide any kind of satisfactory end to that plotline before the next expansion/season.

Indeed. If we really look at it, Season 3 was just three episodes ultimately. Out of the Shadows, Head of the Snake, and Flashpoint. The other half were just fillers and the important parts of which could have been tacted onto another episode.

Season 2 was similar, though not nearly as greatly. Episodes 3 and 4 were both half filler, and could have been combined into one, while Episodes 7 and 8 were the same and could have been similarly combined. If ArenaNet wanted to go at getting the plot done as soon as could be, then it would have been 6 episodes instead. They intentionally dragged it out a bit, either for the purpose of narrative or for the purpose of giving the expansion team more time before content ran out.

So I find it weird that people think that Season 4 will be entirely lacking filler.


My theory is simply this:

  • Episode 3 will take us north towards Tyria. At the end of A Bug in the System, we saw Joko throw the Scarab Plague sample through a gate before leaving through another. First thing is first, now that Joko cannot send armies to any point in the continent, we'll have to deal with that sample he tossed through and prevent a full on outbreak.
  • Episode 4 will be Gandara and its outskirts. Here we make our first true assault against Joko. The purpose of this is to prevent his army from recooperating losses from Balthazar and the invasions as well as learn about his next attempt. About a leak: [spoilers]The image of Episode 2's map which also showed a Volatile Magic icon and the number 80 over Gandara could have been Episode 3, but I suspect it'd be Episode 4; if it were 3, then there would likely have had enough map progress for testers to go, so why was there nothing unfogged?[/spoilers]
  • Episode 5 will be back up north. Having failed to catch Joko with his proverbial pants down, he has marched an army up north along the Scavenger's Causeway. This will take us via Judgment Rock's portal to west of Crystal Oasis, where Joko has established a staging ground since his return but hadn't used it due to his discovery of Rata Primus.
  • Episode 6 will be when we will attempt to take down Joko once and for all, not sure where this will be but probably on the northern side of Elona. We won't manage to actually take him down, because at the last minute the Order of Shadows via Kito saves him. Their goal was to prevent the invasion, not dethrone Joko. They want to maintain status quo, and saving Joko has put him in their debt (not that he'd truly thank them).
  • Episode 7 will have Taimi distract us by an off-screen breakthrough over Kralkatorrik and take us to the Blood Legion Homelands, where said breakthrough requires getting something from his place of rest. Here we get our first hints of our Expansion 3, which I hope/suspect will be continuing the Renegade/Separatist plot from release and pulling on Bangar Ruinbringer. Joko still being a threat in the south, however, keeps our attention from giving this some true observation.
  • Episode 8 will take us back south, to the Crystal Overlook, west of The Desolation. We begin a confrontation with Kito and the Order of Shadows, allying with the Elonian Order of Whispers. I say Crystal Overlook because folks found portal-looking entrances near there.
  • Episode 9. With the Order of Shadows out of the way, the final countdown against Joko begins at the Fortress of Jahai, where he has made his seat of power in Kourna in mockery of his old defeat and imprisonment there, and "ends" with his imprisonment in the same tomb as before.

At some point during the season we will learn that Logan has been preparing for an assault against Kralkatorrik (Crystal Overlook would be a good place to put that, so Episode 8) and though we're opposed due to the whole "we can't kill any more Elder Dragons" we cannot stop their progress either so it becomes a race for Taimi in to figure out how to keep the world from dying. This forces her into the background for the next expansion. As we're getting read to rejoin the Pact to try again to dissuade them from an assault, we get an urgent message from Rytlock: Bangar has declared war on humanity and the Iron and Ash legions in the wake of what devastation the White Mantle and Scarab Plague has caused; Rytlock warns that if Bangar succeeds then the Pact and the Orders will fall in shambles. Already some charr of the Blood Legion have departed to return home and human-haters from the other legions have joined the Blood Legion's rebellion. This all opens up the expansion to east of the Blazeridge.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I find it interesting that everyone here seems to agree that S4 will move at a breakneck pace.I don't really see how that can be defined as breakneck. Especially when you consider the fact that it takes 2.5 to 3 months for each new living story release to come out, and the living story is happening in real time, so the entire Joko story, from start to finish, even if it is only 4 episodes, means its going to take a years time, both IRL, and in-game.

If you look, throughout Path of Fire, and episode 1, we have eliminated most of Joko's top people, and disrupted his rule over much of Elona, already.-Warden Jabari at the Deadhouse, who lorded over Palawa's Grace.-Clanmarshal Geddi, and Vizier Kasahn, who lorded over Purity.-The three High Judges, Ejele, Sidan, and Kulul, who controlled Joko's awakening court.-Archon Iberu, the only known Archon in Joko's order, who is high enough rank he can ask the other generals of Joko's army to follow his orders.-Captain Sutekh, and Warden Amala, who controlled the Mordant Crescent Great Hall.-Commander Lonai, who seemed to be Joko's right hand.Not to mention we have brought together the Sunspears of the Desert/Vabbi region, given them a new base to operate out of in Vabbi, and one of them suggests that they will recruit the youth at the Vehtendi Academy, who have already shown rebellious tenancies, to rebuild the Sunspear order. And it's very possible they will link up with the Istani Sunseapr group, and possibly some Kournan Sunspear group, reforming the Sunspears as a true organization.

As it stands, all we have left to do is stop Joko's plans to invade Tyria, and kill whoever he has ruling Kourna, which will likely happen when we go to Gandara and Jahai because... I mean.... where else would they be stationed at, and Joko would be done for in a pretty conclusive and closed book narrative arc.

Breakneck would be if Anet only did the story mission stuff, and then didn't have us do all the other stuff we do in the open world to disrupt Joko's rule, and then try to make us believe hes done for.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Where did this "seven episodes" thing come from?Back in December, not too long after Datbreak came out, That_Shaman posted a picture of the Living World Season 4 tome on his twitter and said "Something, something seven" Suggesting that the Living world Season 4 tome has slots for 7 seven portal scrolls, and thus, seven releases.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:At the end of A Bug in the System, we saw Joko throw the Scarab Plague sample through a gate before leaving through another.Not sure where you are getting this from. all Joko does in episode 2 is gloat behind a shield, use his staff to shoot the inactive gateway to cause it to malfunction, and then uses his awakening powers to awaken some of the dead inquest in the room. At no point does he throw the scarab plague through any portal.

You can even see that no such thing happens in the video below

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I find it interesting that everyone here seems to agree that S4 will move at a breakneck pace.I don't really see how that can be defined as breakneck. Especially when you consider the fact that it takes 2.5 to 3 months for each new living story release to come out, and the living story is happening in real time, so the entire Joko story, from start to finish, even if it is only 4 episodes, means its going to take a years time, both IRL, and in-game.Comparatively speaking? In S3, the stretch between July 26th and February 8th- six months- saw A.) Aurene hatching, B.) 'Lazarus' pledging his aid, and C.) Braham cracking the Fang. Six months, and the primary storylines were progressed by one story instance and one narrative dead-end. S1 and S2 moved even slower, on the whole. ANet doesn't mind taking their time to advance things.

(Depending on how you look at it, we might already be seeing this happen in S4. If the Olmakhan and the asura brothers turn out to be used for character arcs, and not integrated into the main narrative, then A Bug In the System will boil down to just spelling out conclusions they'd led us to in Daybreak- Joko's back, the Inquest resurrected the Scarab Plague, and Joko was poised to wrest it from them.)

If you look, throughout Path of Fire, and episode 1, we have eliminated most of Joko's top people, and disrupted his rule over much of Elona, already.Sure, we've been doing work, but Joko's top people come to light as quickly as we reach a new zone,-Warden Jabari at the Deadhouse, who lorded over Palawa's Grace.Who we hear about when we arrive in the southern Riverlands-Clanmarshal Geddi, and Vizier Kasahn, who lorded over Purity.Who we hear about when we arrive in the Bonestrand.-The three High Judges, Ejele, Sidan, and Kulul, who controlled Joko's awakening court.Who we hear about at the Necropolis.-Captain Sutekh, and Warden Amala, who controlled the Mordant Crescent Great Hall.Who we hear about upon arriving at the Great Hall (although Amala did get the Fractal tie-in).Iberu, and possibly Lonai, are more prominent victories, but in general it seems that most of the settlements or fortifications we reach have some manner of local top people. Assuming that doesn't change going forward- and why should it?- that means Joko hypothetically has as many top people as ANet cares to make maps for. There's no set finish line or goalpost where we can say we've dealt with most of them.Not to mention we have brought together the Sunspears of the Desert/Vabbi region, given them a new base to operate out of in Vabbi, and one of them suggests that they will recruit the youth at the Vehtendi Academy, who have already shown rebellious tenancies, to rebuild the Sunspear order. And it's very possible they will link up with the Istani Sunseapr group, and possibly some Kournan Sunspear group, reforming the Sunspears as a true organization.I certainly think that's in the cards, but I would expect it to take two, maybe even three, episodes to play out. At least one to make contact/found with any Kournan group, one to gather them together, and depending on how things go, possibly a seperate one to get their first true victories under their feet and leave them in a place where we're confident they'll do fine.And, to play devil's advocate- the Desert/Vabbi Sunspears we've brought together and furnished with a base are four people and a corpse, one of whom isn't planning on sticking around, plus a handful of possibly non-combatant acolytes. It's a start, but it's a long way from being able to stand on its own.

As it stands, all we have left to do is stop Joko's plans to invade Tyria, and kill whoever he has ruling Kourna, which will likely happen when we go to Gandara and Jahai because... I mean.... where else would they be stationed at, and Joko would be done for in a pretty conclusive and closed book narrative arc.Sure, but after two episodes of stopping those plans, we've only just reached the point of confirming he's actually back. Depending on what he has hidden away in Kourna, or even the parts of Istan, Vabbi, and the Desolation we haven't reached...

Breakneck would be if Anet only did the story mission stuff, and then didn't have us do all the other stuff we do in the open world to disrupt Joko's rule, and then try to make us believe hes done for.Personally, I agree. Don't misunderstand me- I'm not advocating for the pace ANet has set in the past. I feel that dragging things out as they have has often left them in a position where they often can't touch on all the things that need to be developed. But, for whatever their reasons- probably more a matter of other considerations than preference- it's worth observing that has not moved at the pace several people are suggesting here in five years of Living World seasons. I don't think it's practical to build out a prospectus on the assumption that pacing will now change, absent any evidence that the reasons for going slow in the first place have been altered.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Comparatively speaking? In S3, the stretch between July 26th and February 8th- six months- saw A.) Aurene hatching, B.) 'Lazarus' pledging his aid, and C.) Braham cracking the Fang. Six months, and the primary storylines were progressed by one story instance and one narrative dead-end. S1 and S2 moved even slower, on the whole. ANet doesn't mind taking their time to advance things.That seems to rather misrepresent what Season 3 was about. Season 3 was a narrative tie up that showed us what was going on in Central Tyira, so that way no one would be asking such questions while Anet went into Elona for an extended period of time. I don't see how any of it could be considered a dead end, it's a tie up, a long overdue one.-We saw what has been happening in Orr since Zhaitan's defeat.-We saw whats been going on with our jungle friends since Mordremoth's defeat.-We made progress towards both Jormag and Pridmorus.-We defeated the White Mantle, the last of the major racial enemy factions that was still treated as being unresolved.Season 3 didn't advance much because its whole purpose was to show that there isn't much to advance at the time being, specifically so we could go to Elona without the weight of a ton of problems in central Tyria on our backs.

Sure, we've been doing work, but Joko's top people come to light as quickly as we reach a new zone,That is sort of how governments work. There is no singular linchpin person that controls everything, whose removal would just end a nation(unless said nation was REALLY poorly designed), everything is all delegated to a variety of people, who each control one thing or place.

Assuming that doesn't change going forward- and why should it?- that means Joko hypothetically has as many top people as ANet cares to make maps forJoko has as many top people as lands he controls, and he controls the Desolation, Vabbi, Istan, and Kourna, and we have already taken out his top people in three of those regions, meaning, we only have one more to go. Joko doesn't have a vast world empire under his control, its pretty well defined in where its borders are.

I certainly think that's in the cards, but I would expect it to take two, maybe even three, episodes to play out. At least one to make contact/found with any Kournan group, one to gather them together, and depending on how things go, possibly a seperate one to get their first true victories under their feet and leave them in a place where we're confident they'll do fine.The Sunspears already have victories under their feet, such as the raids on Palawadan and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall. And I suspect a similar situation will happen in Kourna with the Waterworks, since that is what Joko uses to control water flow to the region, and thus, the region itself. Not to mention any possible Sunspear help in attacking Gandara or Jahai.

And, to play devil's advocate- the Desert/Vabbi Sunspears we've brought together and furnished with a base are four people and a corpse, one of whom isn't planning on sticking around, plus a handful of possibly non-combatant acolytes. It's a start, but it's a long way from being able to stand on its own.And its specifically mentioned that Kitur has plans to get the people from Vehtendi Academy to become Sunspears, and by the time we get to the point to bring the groups together, it would have been over a year since the end of PoF when he planned to do this, enough time for him to get a number of recruits, train them, and bring them to join up with Spearmarshal Zaeim and his group.

Sure, but after two episodes of stopping those plans, we've only just reached the point of confirming he's actually back. Depending on what he has hidden away in Kourna, or even the parts of Istan, Vabbi, and the Desolation we haven't reached...That pretty well ignores the fact thatA. The rest of Vabbi we didn't see in PoF is all branded territory, and not Joko's, so he can't have anything there.B. The rest of Istan is either old swampland, or farmland, with no major settlements or bases for Joko to have anything in. Which is likely part of the reason why the map cuts off where it does, and why Anet designed the Domain of Istan and First City maps in such a way that you couldn't reasonably square another living story map between the,.C. The major fortifications in Kourna are Gandara and Jahai... which means we will end up dealing with whatever is there when we go there.

Personally, I agree. Don't misunderstand me- I'm not advocating for the pace ANet has set in the past. I feel that dragging things out as they have has often left them in a position where they often can't touch on all the things that need to be developed. But, for whatever their reasons- probably more a matter of other considerations than preference- it's worth observing that has not moved at the pace several people are suggesting here in five years of Living World seasons. I don't think it's practical to build out a prospectus on the assumption that pacing will now change, absent any evidence that the reasons for going slow in the first place have been altered.I don't really consider anything they have done slow, unless you are simply comparing it to over video games who encapsulate huge epic journeys in one months time because they can't be arsed to actually show how long they would ACTUALLY take. It's actually been fairly well paced in terms of realism, and nothing suggested here goes against that.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:If you look, throughout Path of Fire, and episode 1, we have eliminated most of Joko's top people, and disrupted his rule over much of Elona, already.-Warden Jabari at the Deadhouse, who lorded over Palawa's Grace.-Clanmarshal Geddi, and Vizier Kasahn, who lorded over Purity.-The three High Judges, Ejele, Sidan, and Kulul, who controlled Joko's awakening court.-Archon Iberu, the only known Archon in Joko's order, who is high enough rank he can ask the other generals of Joko's army to follow his orders.-Captain Sutekh, and Warden Amala, who controlled the Mordant Crescent Great Hall.-Commander Lonai, who seemed to be Joko's right hand.

Not towards me but...

  • Who is ultimately a nobody. He runs a single prison meant to house exiles about to be Awakened. A very minor group, an overall minor operation, and someone who can be replaced fairly easily. Not to mention Jabari comes back in the lore of the event chain after being killed.
  • Who leads a single town in a vast empire. Ultimately, they're nobodies. Not to mention that both got immediately replaced.
  • This might actually be a decent victory, but they're easily replaced / reAwakened. Not to mention that it's Joko's Awakening court in Vabbi alone.
  • This is an actual victory, though he comes back in Daybreak, and nothing would prevent him from coming back again in all honesty.
  • The former is a nobody. The later is just a prison warden who could be replaced, but she even comes back multiple times in the story. Amala is no more important than Jabari, and neither are all that important. They run a singular garrison. It'd be like saying killing this guy was a major blow to Varesh's operations during Nightfall - it wasn't. It probably didn't even phase her.
  • This is an actual victory, if the rank of Commander is as high in the Mordant Crescent as it is in the Pact.

I think you're overstating the victories, in all honesty.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Where did this "seven episodes" thing come from?Back in December, not too long after Datbreak came out, That_Shaman posted a picture of the Living World Season 4 tome on his twitter and said "Something, something seven" Suggesting that the Living world Season 4 tome has slots for 7 seven portal scrolls, and thus, seven releases.

I remember that. But that was too little context. Could be "seven options" which would be the exact same as Season 3's tome. Six releases + close dialogue.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:At the end of A Bug in the System, we saw Joko throw the Scarab Plague sample through a gate before leaving through another.Not sure where you are getting this from. all Joko does in episode 2 is gloat behind a shield, use his staff to shoot the inactive gateway to cause it to malfunction, and then uses his awakening powers to awaken some of the dead inquest in the room. At no point does he throw the scarab plague through any portal.

You can even see that no such thing happens in the video below

At 19:25 of that video you see him throw something towards the opening asura gate, at this very moment the PC shouts "No!", then he awakens the asura corpses and walks through through the vortex that was open the entire time. He still has a container when walking through the vortex, but why would the PC shout "No!" at him shooting a blast of energy or w/e that was through an asura gate if it wasn't the Scarab Plague.

Not to mention that just before throwing that something, Joko says that it's "a small parting gift" in a rather understating and condescending tone.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Sure, but after two episodes of stopping those plans, we've only just reached the point of confirming he's actually back. Depending on what he has hidden away in Kourna, or even the parts of Istan, Vabbi, and the Desolation we haven't reached...That pretty well ignores the fact thatA. The rest of Vabbi we didn't see in PoF is all branded territory, and not Joko's, so he can't have anything there.B. The rest of Istan is either old swampland, or farmland, with no major settlements or bases for Joko to have anything in. Which is likely part of the reason why the map cuts off where it does, and why Anet designed the Domain of Istan and First City maps in such a way that you couldn't reasonably square another living story map between the,.C. The major fortifications in Kourna are Gandara and Jahai... which means we will end up dealing with whatever is there when we go there.

A. I'm not so sure this is true. Even counting the updated Dragonbrand, as you can see here the Brand misses all of Yatendi Canyons, and we don't know what lies west of there / douth of Forum Highlands; I rather doubt it's untouched territory. Further, given the lack-of-branding at the southeastern corner of Domain of Vabbi, it seems that big splotch of brand isn't entirely branded after all, and even then there's still more Vabbi on the eastern side of that splotch (albeit not much). Not to mention that, while the Halls of Chokhin was burned down, that entire zone would still be part of Vabbi.B. Farmland in a place one causes droughts in for punishment are vital if one wants to keep the population alive. So Zehlon Reach and Issnur Isles would be of vital importance. I doubt that the small farms in Elon Riverlands and Prosperity can feed the entirety of Vabbi and Kourna that, thanks to Joko's damming, has a lot less water now. Granted, I don't expect we'll be going to those areas, namely because the latter is cut off the world map and the former is simply not of plot importance.C. Kourna had garrisons littered throughout; while Jahai and Gandara were the big two, they weren't the only "major fortifications" really. I also doubt that just because they had prevalence in GW1 would mean they will in GW2 in a similar way. By that argument, the Sunspear Sanctuary, Mahnkelojn Waterworks, and Dejarin Estate will be huge locations to go to as well.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Comparatively speaking? In S3, the stretch between July 26th and February 8th- six months- saw A.) Aurene hatching, B.) 'Lazarus' pledging his aid, and C.) Braham cracking the Fang. Six months, and the primary storylines were progressed by one story instance and one narrative dead-end. S1 and S2 moved even slower, on the whole. ANet doesn't mind taking their time to advance things.That seems to rather misrepresent what Season 3 was about. Season 3 was a narrative tie up that showed us what was going on in Central Tyira, so that way no one would be asking such questions while Anet went into Elona for an extended period of time. I don't see how any of it could be considered a dead end, it's a tie up, a long overdue one.-We saw what has been happening in Orr since Zhaitan's defeat.-We saw whats been going on with our jungle friends since Mordremoth's defeat.-We made progress towards both Jormag and Pridmorus.-We defeated the White Mantle, the last of the major racial enemy factions that was still treated as being unresolved.Season 3 didn't advance much because its whole purpose was to show that there isn't much to advance at the time being, specifically so we could go to Elona without the weight of a ton of problems in central Tyria on our backs.Oh, I agree we did plenty of worth in S3 as a whole. But that window I mentioned- the gap between episodes one and four- only lightly touched on two of those threads, in a 'we're still here' kind of way, not in a way that progressed them any. My point is that we can't assume they'll handle Joko in a year when they might six months might get us nowhere.Sure, we've been doing work, but Joko's top people come to light as quickly as we reach a new zone,That is sort of how governments work. There is no singular linchpin person that controls everything, whose removal would just end a nation(unless said nation was REALLY poorly designed), everything is all delegated to a variety of people, who each control one thing or place.Agreed.Assuming that doesn't change going forward- and why should it?- that means Joko hypothetically has as many top people as ANet cares to make maps forJoko has as many top people as lands he controls, and he controls the Desolation, Vabbi, Istan, and Kourna, and we have already taken out his top people in three of those regions, meaning, we only have one more to go. Joko doesn't have a vast world empire under his control, its pretty well defined in where its borders are.That'd be true... if we'd seen more than half of Vabbi, the Desolation, and Istan. We've not been through three-quarters of his realm- we've been through three-eighths. (Realistically, less than that, bearing in mind that A.) we've seen closer to a third of Istan, and B.) that's all based on what we saw in GW1, which wasn't necessarily all that was there.)I certainly think that's in the cards, but I would expect it to take two, maybe even three, episodes to play out. At least one to make contact/found with any Kournan group, one to gather them together, and depending on how things go, possibly a seperate one to get their first true victories under their feet and leave them in a place where we're confident they'll do fine.The Sunspears already have victories under their feet, such as the raids on Palawadan and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall. And I suspect a similar situation will happen in Kourna with the Waterworks, since that is what Joko uses to control water flow to the region, and thus, the region itself. Not to mention any possible Sunspear help in attacking Gandara or Jahai.I'm not sure I'd count a raid as a victory, not when we're quite decisively driven back by a magic we have no countermeasure for. It makes for good publicity, of course, and the supplies will no doubt be vital to successes in the future, but it doesn't directly move the Istani Sunspears any closer to achieving their aim. Joko still controls every inch of Istan that he did before the raids. The Sunspears are still precariously hidden under a library that receives frequent Awakened scrutiny. Even Iberu and Amala may not have been concrete gains- it's pretty well established at this point that Joko can freely re-Awaken his minions if they fall, and there's no mention of us taking any particular countermeasures to prevent that.

And, to play devil's advocate- the Desert/Vabbi Sunspears we've brought together and furnished with a base are four people and a corpse, one of whom isn't planning on sticking around, plus a handful of possibly non-combatant acolytes. It's a start, but it's a long way from being able to stand on its own.And its specifically mentioned that Kitur has plans to get the people from Vehtendi Academy to become Sunspears, and by the time we get to the point to bring the groups together, it would have been over a year since the end of PoF when he planned to do this, enough time for him to get a number of recruits, train them, and bring them to join up with Spearmarshal Zaeim and his group.Hopes, not plans. How is he going to contact them without their headmasters noticing? How is he going to equip them? How is he going to train a large enough number to be impactful, while consistently maintaining a level of secrecy that'll keep Joko's minions from catching on? What if one of those dozens of students decides to snitch? What if a group that decides to vandalize a monument in broad daylight can't be impressed upon that secrecy is paramount? And even if he does succeed... what is he going to do with a few dozen teenagers to unseat Joko's rule? We're talking schoolchildren here, not the Order of Whispers.Sure, but after two episodes of stopping those plans, we've only just reached the point of confirming he's actually back. Depending on what he has hidden away in Kourna, or even the parts of Istan, Vabbi, and the Desolation we haven't reached...That pretty well ignores the fact thatWell, let's break it down:A. The rest of Vabbi we didn't see in PoF is all branded territory, and not Joko's, so he can't have anything there.Of the ten Vabbi maps in GW1, ~4 are contained in the Domain of Vabbi. Another two could reasonably be said to be Branded territory- actually, let's be generous and say Ahdashim has succumbed as well, despite knowing that the djinn can hold back the Brand. Vehjin is positioned inconveniently, so scratch that out two. You're left with about a map and a half, Yatendi and the southern half of Vehtendi, plus plenty of territory around it to square out a GW2 map. That's one episode's worth.B. The rest of Istan is either old swampland, or farmland, with no major settlements or bases for Joko to have anything in. Which is likely part of the reason why the map cuts off where it does, and why Anet designed the Domain of Istan and First City maps in such a way that you couldn't reasonably square another living story map between them.Considering that every region in Elona only had a single major settlement in GW1, that doesn't mean much. GW2 has shown that small settlements can grow and new settlements pop up (not to mention that swampland contained the Sunspear Crypts, and Joko's decorating style could've done some pretty gnarly things with that place). Besides, we've already established that ANet makes content enough to fill the maps, yes? What goes for top people also goes for settlements.

But, back to the numbers.

Eight maps in Istan, two of which are contained in the Domain of Istan, and another half in the Fahranur instance. The Sandswept Isles could fit snugly between them, but let's assume your right, rule out two more. That leaves three- Lahtenda, Issnur, Mehtani- making for two quite large LW maps. Our total is now up to three episode's worth of stomping grounds. (Considering that our new Spearmarshal has history with Issnur, I think that region is the third most likely to get an episode, after Gandara and Jahai/Chantry.)

C. The major fortifications in Kourna are Gandara and Jahai... which means we will end up dealing with whatever is there when we go there.Agreed. Those two are my top picks as well... but, Kourna's a big place. They could fit four maps in there without breaking a sweat. Seven episode's worth.

Now, the Desolation- eight maps, about three-and-a-third of which made it into the GW2 map. The remaining four and change could easily make three more maps, without even going far enough south to hit Kralkatorrik's new roost.

That adds up to potentially ten episodes- a full season-and-a-half- of minions and top men and armies and tricks and traps that Joko could have at his disposal. Obviously, we're only going to bother with a fraction of that... but it's very premature to declare he's almost tapped out. Even if we count each PoF map as worth three from the LW, he has more that we haven't seen than that we have.

Personally, I agree. Don't misunderstand me- I'm not advocating for the pace ANet has set in the past. I feel that dragging things out as they have has often left them in a position where they often can't touch on all the things that need to be developed. But, for whatever their reasons- probably more a matter of other considerations than preference- it's worth observing that has not moved at the pace several people are suggesting here in five years of Living World seasons. I don't think it's practical to build out a prospectus on the assumption that pacing will now change, absent any evidence that the reasons for going slow in the first place have been altered.I don't really consider anything they have done slow, unless you are simply comparing it to over video games who encapsulate huge epic journeys in one months time because they can't be kitten to actually show how long they would ACTUALLY take. It's actually been fairly well paced in terms of realism, and nothing suggested here goes against that.

I'm not comparing to other games at all. I'm simply stating that dealing with Joko in a year would be quicker than what they've done in the past. Scarlet took thirteen months, without any other major plot threads to share screen time. Mordremoth took fifteen and change. Balthazar took fourteen, and he qualified for your previous definition of breakneck where you rush straight at the big bad without satisfactorily dismantling his forces.

Caudecus took six months. I suppose if you consider Joko to be somewhere between him and the others, and not a fully fledged Big Bad, then a year isn't so short a time...

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I think you're overstating the victories, in all honesty.At this point, I really don't understand how you view narrative design. On one hand, you call all of these people, who the game makes out to be rather important to that region, but then turn around and keep trying to push the idea that the Separatists and Renegades, who WERE treated as nothing but a minor annoyance, even in the Ascalon maps, as going to be the next big plot arc. Your sense of narrative importance always appears to be polar opposite to the game.I remember that. But that was too little context. Could be "seven options" which would be the exact same as Season 3's tome. Six releases + close dialogue.That is reaching to an extreme degree. No one hints at something like that and includes the "close tome" option as one of the listed things.At 19:25 of that video you see him throw something towards the opening asura gate, at this very moment the PC shouts "No!", then he awakens the asura corpses and walks through through the vortex that was open the entire time. He still has a container when walking through the vortex, but why would the PC shout "No!" at him shooting a blast of energy or w/e that was through an asura gate if it wasn't the Scarab Plague.No, you literally cannot Konig. He shoots the inactive portal with his staff damaging it, then immediately turns around, back to facing the player, then we see the magical effects of him casting his spell to awaken the Inquest around him. And after doing so, he walks into his portal and leaves. At literally no point does he do anything to throw or cast anything into the portal. Why would he in the first place? He shot the portal to cause it to go haywire, meaning, he would have no idea where anything he cast would end up, making it useless to try to release it on Tyira. The argument doesn't even make sense in the first place.the restA. There are mountains there, and anything there would be explored as part of a map around JahaiB. The untouched part of Vabbi you mention also happens to be the Sunspear Sanctuary where the last Spearmashall lies. It was spared because of the magic power of Komir's followers, and is something even the Seekers outside note is a one off occurrence in the Brand.C. since when did Joko cause droughts in Istan? He did so in Vabbi, by cutting off the river Elon, and can do so in Kourna by shutting down the waterworks, but I can't recall anyone mentioning him droughting Istan... especially when the areas in question are surrounded on all sides by water.D. The other Kournan garrisons weren't made a big deal of, and I very much suspect we will go to the Waterworks, as part of the Jahai map, and the old Sunspear Sanctuary, as part of some northwestern Kourna map. The Dejarin Estate was never that important outside of being a part of Koss's background.

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:not in a way that progressed them anyI don't see how you can consider moving one step closer to their home areas, as well as seeing them develop new powers, is not a progression. That is literally narrative progression defined.That'd be true... if we'd seen more than half of Vabbi, the Desolation, and Istan.No game shows us everything, especially sequels which normally try to jump to just the more important areas. One could theoretically use the argument of "we haven't seen everything" to justify any narrative point, but that isn't how games, or game plots, are made.I'm not sure I'd count a raid as a victory, not when we're quite decisively driven back by a magic we have no countermeasure for.The magic is a narrative mcguffin to justify the fact that the open world event reset constantly. In lore, the human supports of Joko in Palawadan, the corsair ships under his control, and all that other stuff, happens once. Which is why everything resets and everyone acts like its the first time doing it.Hopes, not plans.Incorrect, Second Spear Nayrim says she hasn't seen Kitur this hopeful in a long time, but that isn't the same as saying he only has hopes to rebuild the Sunspears. He obviously has a plan to do so via the people at the academy. He hopes it succeeds, but he very obviously has a plan to do it.while consistently maintaining a level of secrecy that'll keep Joko's minions from catching on? What if one of those dozens of students decides to snitch? What if a group that decides to vandalize a monument in broad daylight can't be impressed upon that secrecy is paramount?If you recall, one of the items you need for the Sunspear Sancutrary achievement is "Guard Bribes", the guards around the area already know the Sanctuary is there, they are just being paid to look the other way.Well, let's break it down:LetsA. There are 9 maps in Vabbi, not 10.B. 5 of them are in the Domain of Vabbi map, wholly or partially.C. Two of the other ones are covered by Brand.D. One of the others is likely to be included in the Jahai mapE. The Domain of Istan map actually covers, or touches into, three maps. And the First City story instance covers part of a 4thF. Again, where are you pulling these numbers from? There are 7 maps in the Desolation, with the Desolation map covering, or touching into, 5 of them.So no, you have gotten more like 4-5 episodes, which is the 7 suggested by That_shamanI'm simply stating that dealing with Joko in a year would be quicker than what they've done in the past. Scarlet took thirteen months, without any other major plot threads to share screen time.So basically the exact same time? 1 year = 12 months.and he qualified for your previous definition of breakneck where you rush straight at the big bad without satisfactorily dismantling his forces.You did though. Balthazat never had a particularly large force to begin with, and you attack most of their major locations during the story missions. What forces he had left he gathered into an army, but then you also got Joko's army to fight them.and not a fully fledged Big BadJoko is as much of a big bad as Scarlet was, which is why its going to take around 12 months for his story to end.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I think you're overstating the victories, in all honesty.At this point, I really don't understand how you view narrative design. On one hand, you call all of these people, who the game makes out to be rather important to that region, but then turn around and keep trying to push the idea that the Separatists and Renegades, who WERE treated as nothing but a minor annoyance, even in the Ascalon maps, as going to be the next big plot arc. Your sense of narrative importance always appears to be polar opposite to the game.

In regards to the "important people", the game actually doesn't. The individuals that the game promotes as important for the Awakened army are:

  • Archon Iberu
  • Commander Lonai
  • Troopmarshal Olori Ogun
  • Beastmarshal Oluwa Eranko
  • Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo

Socioeconomically important figures for the Empire we've seen are:

  • Grand Vizier Utumishi
  • Palawa Joko
  • High Judges Ejele, Kulul, Sidan

And we've only permanently dealt with one of them, maybe Iberu and the High Judges too. The other individuals, both those you listed and those you didn't, are equivalents of mayors and captains. Not only are they pretty low in the government and military chain, but they're also positions easily replaced.

Like you said, governments aren't linchpined by a single person (except in dictatorships where the head honcho does tend to linchpin the government), but they don't fall apart if you eliminate people in easily replacable positions either.

Not to mention that other than Iberu, the High Judges, and Lonai, none of the people you mention are anything more than a local annoyance. Much like a single segment of the Renegades or Separatists. Furthermore, I'm promoting the armies, not individuals. The comparison wouldn't be to "a single town's mayor" like you claim, but to the entire Awakened force. The Renegades survived Ajax's defeat, just as the Awakened are ultimately unaffected by some random mayor (aka "vizier")'s death. Not to mention they were more than a minor annoyance given there was an entire personal story chapter dedicated to them, and the entire plot for the Renegades is on pretty clear "saved until later" status just like the White Mantle were until Season 3, meaning that ArenaNet likely has/had plans to go into them at some point (doesn't mean they will, just that when the core game was being designed, they did - plans change after all).

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I remember that. But that was too little context. Could be "seven options" which would be the exact same as Season 3's tome. Six releases + close dialogue.That is reaching to an extreme degree. No one hints at something like that and includes the "close tome" option as one of the listed things.

Hardly. That_shaman doesn't see all, and there's nothing that would be in the game at the time of Episode 4 let alone a potential Episode 7 or even 8. We don't know what data he did see, and "something something seven" is so far up the ambiguity alley that presuming it means "seven episodes" and nothing else is pretty silly.

Not to mention that seven is the cap of dialogue options - you will never see an item with more than seven dialogue options displayed at a time. If there are more, then there will be a "see more options" choice instead of the 6th, which in turn leads leads to options 6-11/12 (11 if there's more than 12, 12 if that's where it's at). Unless they opt to not have a dialogue closing option which happens very, very rarely.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

At 19:25 of that video you see him throw something towards the opening asura gate, at this very moment the PC shouts "No!", then he awakens the asura corpses and walks through through the vortex that was open the entire time. He still has a container when walking through the vortex, but why would the PC shout "No!" at him shooting a blast of energy or w/e that was through an asura gate if it wasn't the Scarab Plague.No, you literally cannot Konig.
He shoots the inactive portal
with his staff damaging it, then immediately turns around, back to facing the player, then we see the magical effects of him casting his spell to awaken the Inquest around him. And after doing so, he walks into his portal and leaves.
At literally no point does he do anything to throw or cast anything into the portal.
Why would he in the first place? He shot the portal to cause it to go haywire, meaning, he would have no idea where anything he cast would end up, making it useless to try to release it on Tyira. The argument doesn't even make sense in the first place.

The two bold statements contradict each other in your post.

Also, uh, he doesn't have his staff. The only thing he's carrying is the Scarab Plague sample. And what hand does he cast with? The one holding the Scarab Plague sample. And besides if he's throwing part of the sample(s?) of the Scarab Plague through the gate, then he still has more. So it literally doesn't matter where that first sample would go, since he can spread it to any intended target later. Sending a sample through to begin cause devastation would pose as a proper distraction should the Commander survive fighting Lonai. Like Joko said: the "new him" wouldn't draw things out, and that would include taking things to chance, which just leaving things to Lonai and a haywire gate would be doing.

Besides, why would the Commander shout "No!" at Lonai's simple order to kill, or him making a gate go haywire? Neither is really all that detrimental to someone who slayed a god and who's goal is to prevent use of the gate in the first place.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Joko is as much of a big bad as Scarlet was, which is why its going to take around 12 months for his story to end.

You do realize that Scarlet had gotten effectively 14 months (January 28 2013 to March 18 2014), but on top of that, Season 1 had over 20 releases. Even if you only count by plot (effectively halving) and ignoring the Ellen Kiel distractions (bringing it down to 7 combined releases), that's still fairly different than the supposed 4 releases that you present for Joko. Not to mention if Joko is felled in Episode 4 as you suggest, that's not 12 months. That's 9, if the remaining releases stick to 2 months over 3 like most of Season 3 did.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In regards to the "important people", the game actually doesn't.Incorrect.The various NPCs make it clear these are all rather important figures in Joko's government. Even the small settlement of Palawa's Grace outside the Bonewall is given some importance for being an important farming community for Joko. Which means the person ruling over it, Warden Jabari, is also fairly important.And we've only permanently dealt with one of themIncorrect-Lonai is dead, and trapped on a rock floating in space that can't be reached by Joko, so she can't be resurrected.-Olishar mentions at the Sunspear Sanctuary its unlikely Jabari will be raised again, and the dialog in the Deadhouse event makes it clear this is the first time they are doing it, each time. Meaning Jabari is still out of the picture after PoF's main story is over, and has been since you took him out the first time.-Clamarshal Geddi from the Purity Village event chain is also human, and never get awakened at any point, meaning the event to overthrow him and the Vizir is also a one time thing.-Two of the High Judges are living humans, and never show up as Awakened, meaning, they are dead, and stay that way, and the event cycling it just a redo of the thing you did already, and not the same thing actually happening over and over.-Similar to the Jabari incident, as well as the high judges, the raids on Palawadan, and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall, involve unawakened humans, who stay unawakaned all the time, and the dialog from those events also makes it clear its the first time every time. So nothing suggests any of them got reawakened. Meaning Iberu is now dead for dead, as are likely the Warden and Captain from the Great Hall.Much like a single segment of the Renegades or Separatists. I'm promoting the armies not individualsIncorrect. The people under Joko are part of a larger functional government, with widespread established systems, and armies. The Separatists and renegades are lawless bunches of idiots with no real organization or high leadership, and what small leaders and funders they had, such as Caduceus and Ajax, are dead, and no one has ever treated them as anything but a minor annoyance.Hardly. That_shaman doesn't see all, and there's nothing that would be in the game at the time of Episode 4 let alone a potential Episode 7 or even 8.Incorrect. When making something like the portal tome one would give it all the slots for all future releases one had planned. The reason for this being that, while it does enable people to open up the game files and look at the code to figure out how many releases there will be, it saves a lot of hassle in the long run by not having to try to update the book every single release, and possibly have the book break, and make adding or using scrolls not work. This is true of games in general, and not just Guild wars 2. Fallout New Vegas for instance had dialog for an vanilla game NPC's reaction to a DLC quest in the game from day one, because it was easier to have said lines in the game from the beginning, then try to go back and add new lines to that NPC later. Likewise, Fallout 4 had a DLC that added a computer terminal that let you track companions, and that terminal included the code to track a companion for a DLC that hadn't come out yet, and when the companion hadn't even been official revealed, simply because it is easier, and safer to just do it totally from the beginning, rather then try to go back and update the terminal for the new companion, and run the risk of terminals already in the game world not updating properly.The two bold statements contradict each other in your post.Incorrect. Shooting at the portal to get it to turn on and malfunction doesn't mean he had to throw or cast anything into the portal itself. I can shoot a car without trowing anything into the car itself.Besides, why would the Commander shout "No!" at Lonai's simple order to kill, or him making a gate go haywire?You seemed to have miss the entire context of that scene, where the player tries to stop Joko from taking the scarab plague, can't breach the shield, then Joko blasts a portal, and leaves his right hand behind, to try to kill the Commander, and the Commander then realizes there they nothing he can do to stop Joko from waking out. The player shouted no because Joko left them in a deathtrap while he himself got away with a super plague, not because he actually USED it on a populated place. And again, the portal had no fixed destination, and was randomly teleporting the player all over the place, even seemingly into space/The Mists. Statistically speaking, there is a near zero chance Joko randomly throwing the plague into the portal would have caused it to land somewhere where it could do ANY damage to anything at all. It would be a totally pointless action, which is also why he didn't do it.You do realize that Scarlet had gotten effectively 14 months (January 28 2013 to March 18 2014), but on top of that, Season 1 had over 20 releases.And? the newer releases have far more actual content to them compared to the LWs1 releases. Having more doesn't mean anything if there is less in them. You seem to be trying to distract from the actual point by trying to change subjects to the superficial, that wont work with meNot to mention if Joko is felled in Episode 4 as you suggest, that's not 12 months. That's 9,Incorrect, the Joko plot began in PoF, and the time between PoF and Episode 1 counts as well. And looking at the time gaps between PoF and LWS4EP1 and the gap between Ep1 and Ep2, we are looking at a minimum of 10 months, closer to 12.

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I really enjoy your exchanges guys, I hope you don't mind if I drop in with another low contribution of saying:

I kinda wish the commander got the plague but we quickly found a way to cure it. Something of that sort. I don't think Joko threw a sample into the portal, but considering we're going to get pretty close and personal I wouldn't doubt that we certainly risk getting infected ourselves with all the exposure that is without a doubt going to happen. An easy to administer cure seems to me to be a better solution than literally expecting to prevent somebody from turning his housekey at the door after he already put it into the lock.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Incorrect.The various NPCs make it clear these are all rather important figures in Joko's government. Even the small settlement of Palawa's Grace outside the Bonewall is given some importance for being an important farming community for Joko. Which means the person ruling over it, Warden Jabari, is also fairly important.

Please cite then. Because I've never seen anything suggesting that the Deadhouse is of anything more important than a jail in the local region, holding zero importance on the rest of Elona. While Palawa's Grace and Purity supply a good amount of farms, we never hinder those villages' ability to supply Elona with food even with the Clanmarshal and Vizier's deaths (given their immediate replacement by Bakari and another Awakened). Nothing says the Great Hall is anything but a garrison and a prison for local Awakened.

Those people are important on a local level.

Only Iberu, Lonai, and the High Judges held importance. And Iberu already returned once, nothing prevents him from returning again.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And we've only permanently dealt with one of themIncorrect-Lonai is dead, and trapped on a rock floating in space that can't be reached by Joko, so she can't be resurrected.

Lonai is who I meant. Thought that was clear.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Olishar mentions at the Sunspear Sanctuary its unlikely Jabari will be raised again, and the dialog in the Deadhouse event makes it clear this is the first time they are doing it, each time. Meaning Jabari is still out of the picture after PoF's main story is over, and has been since you took him out the first time.

Warden Jabari: I promise you I will return, Olishar.Warden Jabari: See you again soon.Second Spear Olishar: May you someday find peace, my old friend.

That's during the event. At the sanctuary that you claim shows he's unlikely to return:

Not enough. Not yet. But without Joko to raise him, I don't know if we'll see my old mentor again anytime soon.

Olishar explicitly states that he expects to see Jabari again, just not anytime "soon" due to Joko's disappearance. Joko's no longer gone.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Clamarshal Geddi from the Purity Village event chain is also human, and never get awakened at any point, meaning the event to overthrow him and the Vizir is also a one time thing.

Geddi's role literally gets replaced by Speaker Bakari in the chain, and the Vizier shows up next to him immediately. They even make it a point to keep Bakari's model for several minutes as he talks to the Vizier.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Two of the High Judges are living humans, and never show up as Awakened, meaning, they are dead, and stay that way, and the event cycling it just a redo of the thing you did already, and not the same thing actually happening over and over.

If their corpses were retained, then they can show up again. Just like Iberu. You seem dead set (no pun intended) on insisting that figures can never return, when we are explicitly shown and told that they can even in multiple examples. I never said that this particular event chain shows the High Judges returning to un-life, but that they can be brought back as Awakened.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Similar to the Jabari incident, as well as the high judges, the raids on Palawadan, and the Mordant Crescent Great Hall, involve unawakened humans, who stay unawakaned all the time, and the dialog from those events also makes it clear its the first time every time. So nothing suggests any of them got reawakened. Meaning Iberu is now dead for dead, as are likely the Warden and Captain from the Great Hall.

Individuals who's roles are unclear. They're just priests and nobles based on their titles, so saying killing them is like saying if Caudecus killed Lord Faren then Kryta would have fallen apart. I think we both know how untrue that is. And none of them are prevented from returning in the future as Awakened - whether we see them or not. Nothing really implies Iberu is dead for good.

And, honestly, Warden Amala explicitly states she will return:

Warden Amala: See you again soon, mortals.

Not only that but we fight and kill her twice in the story - once in the instance, once in the open world. And yes, they do indeed depict different events, both canon lore, given that this dialogue is given in the Sunspear hideout beneath Astralarium:

We've had some success with quick hit-and-run raids of the Mordant Crescent's Great Hall. Grabbing what we need and retreating before they can react.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quartermaster_Zineb

This prison is where we break in / out of during the story instance. Proving that the meta (the quick hit-and-run raids) are not the same as the story instance's raid.

You're basically telling me that dozens of lines of dialogue have absolutely no importance. These aren't even the only examples of NPCs telling us that Awakened can be re-Awakened. Lonai herself says so, as does Master Sergeant Shadi about Zehlon Ossa.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Much like a single segment of the Renegades or Separatists. I'm promoting the armies not individualsIncorrect. The people under Joko are part of a larger functional government, with widespread established systems, and armies. The Separatists and renegades are lawless bunches of idiots with no real organization or high leadership, and what small leaders and funders they had, such as Caduceus and Ajax, are dead, and no one has ever treated them as anything but a minor annoyance.

And this I would say you're wrong. Not only wrong about calling me incorrect about what I, personally, and comparing threats (army versus army), but that there are plenty of suggestions that they do have a central leadership. You've obviously not delved into Fields of Ruins very much, or the Vigil story. I mean, everything you just said about the Renegades and Separatists could be said about the Bandits during the initial release, unless you went digging into multiple storylines and multiple events and dialogues.

Plus, the entire plot I've been suggesting works on the explicit foundation of the theory that the Renegades are being funded by Bangar Ruinbringer.

Separatists were no doubt given a massive blow with Caudecus' death, but Caudecus was not their sole founder and funder as far as we know. The Separatists worked with him, not because of him.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Hardly. That_shaman doesn't see all, and there's nothing that would be in the game at the time of Episode 4 let alone a potential Episode 7 or even 8.Incorrect. When making something like the portal tome one would give it all the slots for all future releases one had planned. The reason for this being that, while it does enable people to open up the game files and look at the code to figure out how many releases there will be, it saves a lot of hassle in the long run by not having to try to update the book every single release, and possibly have the book break, and make adding or using scrolls not work.

That's pretty unlikely given that they could change their course midway still, or add in additional releases. They would hardline them into a very specific schedule with plot developments.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:You seemed to have miss the entire context of that scene, where the player tries to stop Joko from taking the scarab plague, can't breach the shield, then Joko blasts a portal, and leaves his right hand behind, to try to kill the Commander, and the Commander then realizes there they nothing he can do to stop Joko from waking out. The player shouted no because Joko left them in a deathtrap while he himself got away with a super plague, not because he actually USED it on a populated place.

Ah, yes, shouting "No!" when Joko is apparently doing absolutely nothing that the PC doesn't want him to do.

And then takes a moment to continue setting a trap...

And then takes a moment to finally leave.

If the shout was as you said, then ArenaNet fucked up on many levels in regards to timing of when that shouting shout have taken place. The Commander is a fucking slayer of Elder Dragons and gods. They wouldn't give a damn about some lacky being left behind or a gate malfunctioning (especially since at the time, the gate's malfunction meant nothing to the Commander). They wouldn't care until Joko actually leaves. Which was a good full minute after the shout.

Unless Joko did something that would be in direct counter to the Commander's objectives, such as actually escaping or unleashing the Scarab Plague. Neither of which, according to you, Joko does when the shout occurs.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:And again, the portal had no fixed destination, and was randomly teleporting the player all over the place, even seemingly into space/The Mists. Statistically speaking, there is a near zero chance Joko randomly throwing the plague into the portal would have caused it to land somewhere where it could do ANY damage to anything at all. It would be a totally pointless action, which is also why he didn't do it.And Joko would care about that why?

If it ends up doing nothing, Joko loses nothing.

if it ends up doing something, Joko gains a distraction.

He doesn't lose the Scarab Plague sample no matter what.

So Joko wouldn't care if he unleashed the Scarab Plague anywhere, even if it was on his own people. Because he, ultimately, can only gain from the action. That's the problem when you're fighting someone who literally has all the time in the world - even if his empire is in shambles by the end of this, even if he loses everything but himself, he can rebuild so long as he has taken out his enemies. It's called a zero sum game, and Joko can be its master.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You do realize that Scarlet had gotten effectively 14 months (January 28 2013 to March 18 2014), but on top of that, Season 1 had over 20 releases.And? the newer releases have far more actual content to them compared to the LWs1 releases. Having more doesn't mean anything if there is less in them. You seem to be trying to distract from the actual point by trying to change subjects to the superficial, that wont work with me

Which is why I made the direct mention right after what you quoted of me bringing it down to 7 by combining releases by plot.

And I was going explicitly with your own comparison, so I wasn't changing any subject - no more than you were. So don't go pointing fingers at me when that finger should be pointing at you.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Not to mention if Joko is felled in Episode 4 as you suggest, that's not 12 months. That's 9,Incorrect, the Joko plot began in PoF, and the time between PoF and Episode 1 counts as well. And looking at the time gaps between PoF and LWS4EP1 and the gap between Ep1 and Ep2, we are looking at a minimum of 10 months, closer to 12.

There was pretty much nothing of Joko in Path of Fire. That's like saying Balthazar's plot began with Season 2, when Rytlock went into the Mists.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:not in a way that progressed them anyI don't see how you can consider moving one step closer to their home areas, as well as seeing them develop new powers, is not a progression. That is literally narrative progression defined.If we were advancing towards their 'home areas', I would agree. But our time in Ember Bay had no bearing on our ability to reach Primordus in Draconis Mons, and our time in Bitterfrost didn't lead to anything at all. The new powers, yes, were a progression, but I had already accounted for those. Everything we see destroyers do in Rising Flame, we also see them do in Flashpoint, and we only encounter one icebrood with new powers in Bitterfrost, at a point where we've already concluded that Jormag would've done so. We confirmed those suspicions, certainly, but there was no pressing narrative need to do so.

That'd be true... if we'd seen more than half of Vabbi, the Desolation, and Istan.No game shows us everything, especially sequels which normally try to jump to just the more important areas. One could theoretically use the argument of "we haven't seen everything" to justify any narrative point, but that isn't how games, or game plots, are made.I disagree. That is exactly how they are made. Take the latest episode- in the AMA, the devs said they decided to drop Rata Primus in Dajkah precisely because we hadn't seen it.I'm not sure I'd count a raid as a victory, not when we're quite decisively driven back by a magic we have no countermeasure for.The magic is a narrative mcguffin to justify the fact that the open world event reset constantly. In lore, the human supports of Joko in Palawadan, the corsair ships under his control, and all that other stuff, happens once. Which is why everything resets and everyone acts like its the first time doing it.I wasn't arguing that it happened more than once. I'm arguing that we didn't take any territory, and that anyone important we killed could theoretically come back. I'm arguing that what we see in Domain of Istan doesn't constitute any progress towards
freeing
Istan.Well, let's break it down:LetsA. There are 9 maps in Vabbi, not 10.There are... well,
, but I don't feel like counting the amphitheater. I imagine you're not including either Ahdashim, Vehjin, or Yatendi?B. 5 of them are in the Domain of Vabbi map, wholly or partially.Right. Three maps more or less in whole, half of Vehtendi, less than half of Vehjin. Round up, you get four.D. One of the others is likely to be included in the Jahai mapAgreed. As I mentioned in my post, I imagine we'll get the Chantry and Jahai on the same map.E. The Domain of Istan map actually covers, or touches into, three maps. And the First City story instance covers part of a 4thI imagine you mean Zehlon?
, I'd call it less than a quarter. Quite comfortably within range of rounding down.F. Again, where are you pulling these numbers from? There are 7 maps in the Desolation, with the Desolation map covering, or touching into, 5 of them.
Granted, one was only used for a challenge mission, but it's about the size of any other GW1 map, so I opted to include it.So no, you have gotten more like 4-5 episodes, which is the 7 suggested by That_shamanTo be clear: I mentioned before that I do not, for a moment, expect that we'll have ten more episodes in Elona. What I'm saying is that there is enough space left in Joko's kingdom to take ten episodes to see it all. We agree that's not going to happen; but your argument is that everything we don't personally lay eyes upon will be of negligible importance, whereas my position is that it could hold important things we don't even know about. For instance, no one has even once proposed that the Commander will go far enough north to see the Elon dam, but Elona's perspective, that out-of-the-way bit of Vabbi is of immense value.I'm simply stating that dealing with Joko in a year would be quicker than what they've done in the past. Scarlet took thirteen months, without any other major plot threads to share screen time.So basically the exact same time? 1 year = 12 months.Yes. If every major moment of that year was spent on Joko- and not Aurene, or Kralkatorrik, or any potential curveballs- the same time. If the other urgent threats we're dealing with conveniently stand aside, the same time.and not a fully fledged Big BadJoko is as much of a big bad as Scarlet was, which is why its going to take around 12 months for his story to end.But he's
sharing space
. Scarlet got to monopolize screentime. Your initial prediction called for Joko and Kralkatorrik to be dealt with in the same season- doubling up on Big Bads means either doubling up on time or cutting down on what we get to see of each.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:There was pretty much nothing of Joko in Path of Fire. That's like saying Balthazar's plot began with Season 2, when Rytlock went into the Mists.Besides us beginning the systematic deconstruction over his rule in Elona in both the Desolation and Vabbi, and us leaving Joko to rot in the Domain of the Lost, which is what caused Joko to be so pissed at us, and try to take over Tyria, in the first place. Apparently the very cause of the whole plot doesn't count as part of the plot now!

Which is why I made the direct mention right after what you quoted of me bringing it down to 7 by combining releases by plot.Which makes your comment meaningless, and bizarre. You are complaining about something you yourself pointed out?

And Joko would care about that why?Because unlike your version of Joko, or Joke-o as I like to call him, the actual Joko actually cares about getting things done. Joko has no reason to throw part of his scarab plague sample into a portal that goes nowhere, and when it wont infect anyone, that is just a waste of what little sample he has, before he even has a means to replicate it more. He loses intentionally useful samples to make more of the plague with, since its not actually a disease, but an infestation, having more scarab eggs to produce a larger batch of it to use on an actual target, with is very useful. Throwing it into a portal that potentially goes nowhere is a waste of resources that accomplishes nothing at all, and the player has no reason to shout "NO!" over.

Ah, yes, shouting "No!" when Joko is apparently doing absolutely nothing that the PC doesn't want him to do.Besides getting away, and taking the plague with him, and leaving the player to die in a base set on self destruct, and ruining the one functioning gate out of there. I'm sure the player wanted Joko to do all those things....

That's pretty unlikely given that they could change their course midway still, or add in additional releases. They would hardline them into a very specific schedule with plot developmentYou seem to not understand how video game development works Koing. One does not begin something like a living world season, with a long narrative, without knowing, before you even start, how many releases it is going to have. Game development isn't just "we make episodes until we decide we are done!". Hell, Star Trek Online has every episode they are going to make, and potential backup versions of those episode made in case they can't get the VAs they want, for the next year and a half, planned out at any given time. You HAVE to be that far ahead to properly lay the ground work for the narrative to get where you want it to be for the NEXT narrative you want to do, and in case complications come up so you aren't forced to scramble all over the place. There is a 99.99% chance that Anet already has high and mid level knowledge of what is going to come out NEXT APRIL already set, and likely knew how S4 was going to end before PoF even came out.

-(army versus army)-You've obviously not delved into Fields of Ruins very much, or the Vigil story-could be said about the Bandits during the initial release-Plus, the entire plot I've been suggesting-Individuals who's roles are unclear.-explicitly states she will return:-And yes, they do indeed depict different events,-You're basically telling me that dozens of lines of dialogue have absolutely no importance.-as does Master Sergeant Shadi about Zehlon Ossa.-You seem dead set (no pun intended) on insisting that figures can never return-but that they can be brought back as Awakened.-Olishar explicitly states that he expects to see Jabari again, just not anytime "soon" due to Joko's disappearance. Joko's no longer gone.-Lonai is who I meant. Thought that was clear.-we never hinder those villages' ability to supply Elona with food-Nothing says the Great Hall is anything but a garrison and a prison for local Awakened.-The Separatists and Renegades have no army, part of why they are so ineffective.-I play Vigil on almost every character, and even the Vigil story makes it clear Ajax was the only leader worth a flip, and you kill him.-Also incorrect, as Bandits had big White Mantle logos plastered on some of their bases since game's release.-The entire plot you suggest makes no sense because the combined power of the Pact, as well as the 5 nations working together, would make anything Bangar attempts the equivalent of Texas breaking off from the rest of the U.S., and then going to war with the rest of the U.S., and expecting to win. Unlike something like Joko, or any potential conflict with the Empire of the Dragon in Cantha, who control entire continents, Bangar doesn't even control the entire Charr nation. Any conflict he starts would be over then the White Mantle plot was, so about 1 episode.-Nothing about their roles are unclear. They are literally the keepers of the Mordant Crescent base, the literal HQ of Joko's elite fighting force.-Famous last words-Never said they didn't-Incorrect, as I never made such a claim.-She also says he wasn't re-awakened either"You made short work of him, from what I hear. What use is an old crone spinning dire warnings when the threat has been put down?"-You seem dead set on intentionally taking what I say out of context, and spinning up stuff in their place. Please stop, it does nothing but make you look bad.-Until they are, then they haven't, that is how narrative works.-And yet, all evidence has pointed to him not being reawakened, so he hasn't. He can expect anything he wants, doesn't mean it actually happens.-It was, I was just listing her for the sake of making the list as complete as possible. T-No, but we do hinder their ability to supply Elona with more awakened troops, which is the entire point of several of the events in the region.-Ohh come on Konig, you know well the MORDANT CRESCENT GREAT HALL is literally their base, not just local fun shack they like to party in.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 We're going round in circles. You are refusing to accept that the clanmarshals and wardens are not people of significant office, and you refuse to accept that Joko (and no doubt others as I cannot see him having the time of day to Awaken every undead personally) are capable of re-Awakening the undead despite dialogue explicitly stating such. You're also refusing to accept the fact that just because we don't see an individual Awakened / reAwakened doesn't mean they cannot be.

Just like before.

Just like you refuse to acknowledge that even if the Renegades had a low presence in the core game, that they could be given a proper plot. Just like the White Mantle were.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:One does not begin something like a living world season, with a long narrative, without knowing, before you even start, how many releases it is going to have. Game development isn't just "we make episodes until we decide we are done!".

No fucking shit and I never said it was.

However, you also do not linchpin yourself into a singular set narrative. In game development, in writing, even in filming everything is subject to change until it is completed. And even then, they may even go back and rework stuff if they have a better idea.

In the context of Guild Wars, the ending of Season 1 should be proof enough. They had the entire ending scripted and even the voice acting done as well as some of the coding and design. But they scrapped it in favor of not killing off Marjory.

So one would never force themselves into having 7 segments for a plot, even if that's what their initial outlining gives them. Because they may decide to go for a shorter or longer narrative by the end. And this is especially true for when the plot won't even be completed within a year's time. Because people get new ideas and will want to change the plan.

No game, no book, no film or TV season was ever planned out once and never altered even once creating the content began. And you will be a fool to self impose yourself on a set length for the content when you're just starting to make it. Which, if you're right, is exactly what you're saying ArenaNet did. One may be forced into a set length by producers or air time, and have to work within those restraints, but you will never want to do that to yourself unless it is for the specific challenge of doing such... which is very, very uncommon in of itself.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-The entire plot you suggest makes no sense because the combined power of the Pact, as well as the 5 nations working together, would make anything Bangar attempts the equivalent of Texas breaking off from the rest of the U.S., and then going to war with the rest of the U.S., and expecting to win. Unlike something like Joko, or any potential conflict with the Empire of the Dragon in Cantha, who control entire continents, Bangar doesn't even control the entire Charr nation. Any conflict he starts would be over then the White Mantle plot was, so about 1 episode.

Ah, yes. The forces of the Pact, decimated by both Zhaitan and Mordremoth even after being boosted by the five nations. And the forces of the five nations, after being decimated by the White Mantle (humans) or Mordremoth (sylvari) and the other two that wouldn't be decimated by Bangar's revolt being so incompetently individualistic that they can hardly be called a nation.

You know, the very argument you posit here could have been used for the White Mantle. And yet what was the last seasons plot?

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Incorrect, as I never made such a claim.You've been telling me this entire time that, despite several NPCs stating that Awakened can be reAwakened, and specifically mention that important Awakened will undoubtably be reAwakened, that no important Awakened are ever reAwakened.

That's telling me that dozens of lines of dialogue have absolutely no importance.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Until they are, then they haven't, that is how narrative works.No, that's how assumptions work.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:-Ohh come on Konig, you know well the MORDANT CRESCENT GREAT HALL is literally their base, not just local fun shack they like to party in.

It's named that because it is the renovated Sunspear Great Hall. It's made pretty explicitly clear in the dialogue that it is nothing more than a garrison and prison. It is not their HQ. Nothing, literally nothing, says so.

It may be "the main garrison on Istan" but that's the most it is. But even that's speculative, as we see far more Mordant Crescent in the Traitor's Arena than in the Great Hall.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:We're going round in circles. You are refusing to accept that the clanmarshals and wardens are not people of significant office, and you refuse to accept that Joko (and no doubt others as I cannot see him having the time of day to Awaken every undead personally) are capable of re-Awakening the undeadI've refused to accept neither of those things, in fact, I have point blanked pointed out people like Joko COULD possibly resurrect many of these people, but what we have been told in-game has shown that he has not.Just like you refuse to acknowledge that even if the Renegades had a low presence in the core game, that they could be given a proper plot. Just like the White Mantle were.And you refuse to accept the difference in the situation where the White Mantle were implied to be behind most, if not all, of the banditry in Kryta, making them a rather HUGE organization, even in the initial release, just undercover, while no such thing has ever been implied for the Separatists. I don't know why you are so fixated on this narrative thread, it really makes no sense.However, you also do not linchpin yourself into a singular set narrative.I never said you do, in fact, I pointed out earlier that Cryptic' Studios, makers of Star Trek Online, have various backup plans in case something happens and they can't get the VA they want or whatever. However, when going into something like a LW narrative, all of the high level details like how many missions(or episodes in GW2's case), and the general plots of those missions/episodes, have to be hammered out beforehand, in order to ensure the plot points that need to get across get across, and to properly set up what happens at the end.They had the entire ending scripted and even the voice acting done as well as some of the coding and design. But they scrapped it in favor of not killing off Marjory.This is an effectively minor detail in the grand scheme of things, especially since Marjory has done nothing since then that couldn't have been filled by someone else. This is the equivalent of Star Trek Online not being able to get Michael Dorn to voice Worf for a mission, so they fall back to using Tony Todd as his brother Kurn instead. It's nothing, and changes like these are already pre-planned in advanced for just such occasions. That however does not change the actual PLOT of what happened in LWS1, which was Scarlet using a machine to hit a ley-line to awaken Mordremoth. Marjory dying or not is literally an irrelevant detail in the actual high narrative of the LWS1. Just like getting Dorn or Todd is in Star Trek Online.

This is true of many novelists as well. The reason why so many books have been able to be completed after the author unexpectedly dies is because even authors pre-plan the major events of novels, such as how they begin, how they end, and how long they will be, before they even start actually WRITING the book, because it keeps them on track. The only think they make up as they go are the small details of how they get from Major point A to major point B. And so people are able to take these notes the author left behind to make something close to the book the author was originally going to make in the first place.

but you will never want to do that to yourself unless it is for the specific challenge of doing suchActually you would for the sake of keeping your narrative intact. Not having set goal only leads to narrative meandering, and feature creep, which is the bane of every project. In fact, if you watch most interviews with game developers, they all mention they set goals like this for themselves because of just such problems. You always want to go into a project with a good idea of where you will start, where you will end, and how long it will take to get from A to Z. You do want to leave yourself wiggle room for the various smaller ideas you think of along the way, but the high level narrative beginning and end has to be known before you go into it, or else it is just going to fall apart and ramble.And the forces of the five nations, after being decimated by the White MantleThe White Mantle didn't decimate anything, they had a very short lived siege on one side of Divinity's Reachand the other two that wouldn't be decimated by Bangar's revolt being so incompetently individualisticBoth the Asura and Norn have shown the ability to work together when needed to achieve greater things. And this isn't taking into account it would still be two legions, plus everyone else, vs one.that no important Awakened are ever reAwakened.No, I said it hasn't actually happened, not that it doesn't ever actually happen in lore, and that it didn't happen before Joko got imprisoned.No, that's how assumptions work.No, that's how lore works. Until something happens, it hasn't. Until we see them awakened, or reawakened, they aren't.It's made pretty explicitly clear in the dialogue that it is nothing more than a garrison and prison.No, it isn't. In fact, its made out to be a rather important location, hence why the Sunspears chose to raid it.as we see far more Mordant Crescent in the Traitor's Arena than in the Great Hall.You mean the Heretic's Arena? There is only one Mordant Crescent there, and that's Archon Iberu. You do know that the Mordant Crescent are not just Joko's awakened army right?

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

We're going round in circles. You are refusing to accept that the clanmarshals and wardens are not people of significant office, and you refuse to accept that Joko (and no doubt others as I cannot see him having the time of day to Awaken every undead personally) are capable of re-Awakening the undeadI've refused to accept neither of those things, in fact, I have point blanked pointed out people like Joko COULD possibly resurrect many of these people, but what we have been told in-game has shown that he has not.

Yeah, told he has not immediately after killing them, while he was still trapped in the Domain of the Lost.

And since he got freed, he's Awakened at least one of the individuals in question, if not more.

Hence refuse to accept.

Beyond this, it's pointless to continue discussing. It's become nothing more than "you say it isn't, I say it is". I've already tried to provide you sources, and asked you for yours yet you've only gave two and one supported myself more than you.

You mean the Heretic's Arena? There is only one Mordant Crescent there, and that's Archon Iberu. You do know that the Mordant Crescent are not just Joko's awakened army right?

So who were all those Champion Mordant Crescent Hierarchs and Intimidators that we fight throughout Palawadan then? Apparently not Mordant Crescent...

And by your argument, all the Awakened Soldiers/Archers/Occultists in the Mordant Great Hall are not Mordant Crescents, and we don't ever fight Mordant Crescent Hierarchs (just a handful of intimidators) in the Great Hall...

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