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P/P is too powerful

Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 14, 2018 in PVP

P/p 3 needs to take up double initiative or something, being able to do 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.

Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.

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Comments

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?

    Who have projectile hate rn? Shortly ... firebrand f3 bubble(outside is shield5),druid staff 5.Thats all i could find from 'metabattle meta builds' . If you ever see scraper he have personal dome . Not that many or I forgot something ?

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    P/p 3 needs to take up double initiative or something, being able to do 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.

    Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.

    dodge, u let him blow a full unload on you he gains all his ini back more or less

    think it cost 3 ini (w/e it cost doesnt matter) he gains 2? back if he lands all hits +1 prolly during animation easy! perma unload.
    i love doing this kitten burst in PvE on deadeye perma mark crap 1 unload to kill kitten perma quickness up wooohoo..
    tho, in PvP or wvw this build is so lame, whoever plays it isnt looking for a challange its just looking for kitten easy kills or trying to kitten people off..

    think only counter to this is like i told u, dodge and if hes kitten enough he will spam all his ini away, tho hide and run. and repeat.

  • Allarius.5670Allarius.5670 Member ✭✭✭

    If p/p is actually overperforming thanks to deadeye, then it needs to be addressed like any other overperforming build.

    However, if there are sufficient mechanics in place to counter it effectively ... Well, that is how a meta shifts.

  • zalt.8937zalt.8937 Member ✭✭

    Looks like ventari support might help you. But yeah, pp thief is hardly a big offender. Close to no sustain, very little utility. And it is single target, with shitloads of projectile hate in game. I killed a p/p thief last night only reflecting his unload.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?

    Who have projectile hate rn? Shortly ... firebrand f3 bubble(outside is shield5),druid staff 5.Thats all i could find from 'metabattle meta builds' . If you ever see scraper he have personal dome . Not that many or I forgot something ?

    This is a link to all the skills just having REFLECT and it fare more then just Firebrand. There at least 25 skills/traits here

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    There also a multitude of skills that block projectiles with a multitude restricted to projectiles. While there no skills traits that block only Phyisical attacks while letting projectiles hit, there a number that block only projectiles. (ie winds of disenchantment)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?

    Who have projectile hate rn? Shortly ... firebrand f3 bubble(outside is shield5),druid staff 5.Thats all i could find from** 'metabattle meta builds'** . If you ever see scraper he have personal dome . Not that many or I forgot something ?

    This is a link to all the skills just having REFLECT and it fare more then just Firebrand. There at least 25 skills/traits here

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    There also a multitude of skills that block projectiles with a multitude restricted to projectiles. While there no skills traits that block only Phyisical attacks while letting projectiles hit, there a number that block only projectiles. (ie winds of disenchantment)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

    You are blind my friend ? Mentioned only stuff that included in metabattle builds (assuming people playing them,instead of less effective builds)
    Not counting any block because its not projectile hate but blocking all hits thats are not unblockable.
    Why I did that... ? To point that not everyone have them on demand

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    P/p 3 needs to take up double initiative or something, being able to do 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.

    Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.

    Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect button 1 time.

    Also "3 spam" is actually NOT 1 button, it's mark which does have a cast time on DE, and THEN 3, which is again easily counterable in a plethora of ways that we've gone over ad nauseum.

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    P/p 3 needs to take up double initiative or something, being able to do 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.

    Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.

    dodge, u let him blow a full unload on you he gains all his ini back more or less

    think it cost 3 ini (w/e it cost doesnt matter) he gains 2? back if he lands all hits +1 prolly during animation easy! perma unload.
    i love doing this kitten burst in PvE on deadeye perma mark crap 1 unload to kill kitten perma quickness up wooohoo..
    tho, in PvP or wvw this build is so lame, whoever plays it isnt looking for a challange its just looking for kitten easy kills or trying to kitten people off..

    think only counter to this is like i told u, dodge and if hes kitten enough he will spam all his ini away, tho hide and run. and repeat.

    Unload is 5 ini with a 2 ini refund IF THE entire chain hits. The full channel of unload is 1.5 seconds meaning even if hit by the initial shots there still plenty of time to react and ensure the rest of the channel does not get through.

    Nonono don't try to reason with people, being the only build in the game that actually dies to a single defensive ability (any reflect) is OP in their minds because "OMG 3 SPAM OP"

    Jesus christ people grow a kitten sack and learn to counter builds that are easily countered> @Odik.4587 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?

    Who have projectile hate rn? Shortly ... firebrand f3 bubble(outside is shield5),druid staff 5.Thats all i could find from** 'metabattle meta builds'** . If you ever see scraper he have personal dome . Not that many or I forgot something ?

    This is a link to all the skills just having REFLECT and it fare more then just Firebrand. There at least 25 skills/traits here

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    There also a multitude of skills that block projectiles with a multitude restricted to projectiles. While there no skills traits that block only Phyisical attacks while letting projectiles hit, there a number that block only projectiles. (ie winds of disenchantment)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

    You are blind my friend ? Mentioned only stuff that included in metabattle builds (assuming people playing them,instead of less effective builds)
    Not counting any block because its not projectile hate but blocking all hits thats are not unblockable.
    Why I did that... ? To point that not everyone have them on demand

    Not every build has 9 clones on the map at a given time either, but at least p/p thief DOES have MANY NUMBERS OF COUNTERS, why are people whining about something that is easily countered? Give me one valid reason why your inability to carry and activate a single projectile defensive ability, which would defeat this entire build by itself, makes p/p thief OP?

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect .

    So you either reflect or get 100 -0 in a second? Is this what it comes down to? This is the problem with the gw2 community, that you have people who defend this type of game play. I don't care what class it is, you should not be able to 100 - 0 a player within in a second, let alone just pressing ONE button. Its not just a "thief" thing. Damage across the board needs to be toned down significantly and firebrand needs to NOT be a healer.

    Implying that reflect is the only way to defeat the build now? We listed the number of ways to defeat the build, THEY ARE QUITE NUMEROUS, and the build itself is trash tier. I'm getting really kitten tired of people whining because they failed to press one of the 16+ buttons on their skill bar to prevent death. THE ONLY reason I even brought up reflect is because reflect outright DEFEATS the build by using a defensive ability.

    Name one other build in gw2 that LITERALLY dies instantly from full hp because it attacked into a defensive ability?

    I'm sorry but this isn't a case of defending a build like chronomancer which is obviously op and has no real counter, this is a build with A kitten MULTITUDE of EASILY EXECUTED COUNTERS, and your failure to use any of them is on you, not on the opponent, not on thief mains, and certainly not on anet's balance team for making a build that is easily countered but people are not smart enough to do it.

    Why should the game be balanced around your inability to activate a counter to a build? "BUT AH DON'T WHANT TAH PRESS MAH COUNTA PISTAHLS BUTTON" is not an excuse to nerf a build.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?

    Who have projectile hate rn? Shortly ... firebrand f3 bubble(outside is shield5),druid staff 5.Thats all i could find from** 'metabattle meta builds'** . If you ever see scraper he have personal dome . Not that many or I forgot something ?

    This is a link to all the skills just having REFLECT and it fare more then just Firebrand. There at least 25 skills/traits here

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

    There also a multitude of skills that block projectiles with a multitude restricted to projectiles. While there no skills traits that block only Phyisical attacks while letting projectiles hit, there a number that block only projectiles. (ie winds of disenchantment)

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

    You are blind my friend ? Mentioned only stuff that included in metabattle builds (assuming people playing them,instead of less effective builds)
    Not counting any block because its not projectile hate but blocking all hits thats are not unblockable.
    Why I did that... ? To point that not everyone have them on demand

    Who cares what metta battle details? You suggested that there no projectile hate in the game. Why the heck would you use meta battle as a reference?

    If there few builds on Metabattle that integrate some form of projectile hate into their build it suggests they are really all not that concerned about a p/p thif does it not?

    I can go throigh mettabattle and find a whole pile of builds lacking condition cleanses. It hardly suggests there no condition cleanses available to the various professions.

    Meta battle builds are NOT more effective. If you are dying to a p/p thief cause because you are using builds from Meta battle that do not use blocks or refelcts then it on you.

    You talking nonsense tbh . Read bold text that i gave you or ask anyone who can :)
    Why builds lacking condi cleanse... Because only scourge is condi build and all other condi builds are trash and its meta of power builds ?
    Why would anyone being concerned about P/P thief that considered garbage but as you can see effective on 'average' level of players just by spamming one button (actually thief players known for repeatetive using of one skill lul).
    Because they dont have projectile hate to save you from p/p thief on your 1300 rating doesnt mean they are not most effective (metabattle not always correct tho). If you dont understand that... R I P
    And I never said i'm dying to this kind of thieves .

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Not every build has 9 clones on the map at a given time either, but at least p/p thief DOES have MANY NUMBERS OF COUNTERS, why are people whining about something that is easily countered? Give me one valid reason why your inability to carry and activate a single projectile defensive ability, which would defeat this entire build by itself, makes p/p thief OP?

    I dont have 9 clones up either ?
    I thought thats simple , not everyone have 'projectile defensive ability' on demand ?
    Even if they nerf that 'noob killer' build that wont affect PvP at all or PvE (idk what ppl do in wvw tho).You seems to care a lot ,playing it as well ?
    I'm not even complaining about it ,merely arguing and I get p/p teefs jump on me on forum ,geez xD

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Not every build has 9 clones on the map at a given time either, but at least p/p thief DOES have MANY NUMBERS OF COUNTERS, why are people whining about something that is easily countered? Give me one valid reason why your inability to carry and activate a single projectile defensive ability, which would defeat this entire build by itself, makes p/p thief OP?

    I dont have 9 clones up either ?
    I thought thats simple , not everyone have 'projectile defensive ability' on demand ? If i play then I know i'm not playing against potatoes that trying to spam unload me to death ,even if i would know I wouldnt change anything on build I'm playing .
    Even if they nerf that 'noob killer' build that wont affect PvP at all or PvE (idk what ppl do in wvw tho).You seems to care a lot ,playing it as well ?
    I'm not even complaining about it ,merely arguing and I get p/p teefs jump on me on forum ,geez xD

    Chronomancer DOES have the ability to have 9 clones/phantasms up on the screen. We have screenshots on these forums.

    You do not NEED to run projectile hate to defeat pistols thief, any combination of 2 of dodge, block, invuln, cc or reflect will BREAK this build. Reflect doesn't just "beat" the build, will actually KILL this build. Focus fire will KILL this build without using a single defensive ability.

    There's a difference between a build having counters and a counter actually killing a build in a single activation - as reflect does here. This again separates pistols thief apart as a terrible kitten build.

    Again answer my question: why should the game be balanced around your inability to execute any number of obvious counters to a build? I personally couldn't give a kitten less about them nerfing unload, but I sure as kitten won't sit around listening to a bunch of crybabies on forums asking for nerfs to a build that ISN'T GOOD.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Not every build has 9 clones on the map at a given time either, but at least p/p thief DOES have MANY NUMBERS OF COUNTERS, why are people whining about something that is easily countered? Give me one valid reason why your inability to carry and activate a single projectile defensive ability, which would defeat this entire build by itself, makes p/p thief OP?

    I dont have 9 clones up either ?
    I thought thats simple , not everyone have 'projectile defensive ability' on demand ? If i play then I know i'm not playing against potatoes that trying to spam unload me to death ,even if i would know I wouldnt change anything on build I'm playing .
    Even if they nerf that 'noob killer' build that wont affect PvP at all or PvE (idk what ppl do in wvw tho).You seems to care a lot ,playing it as well ?
    I'm not even complaining about it ,merely arguing and I get p/p teefs jump on me on forum ,geez xD

    Chronomancer DOES have the ability to have 9 clones/phantasms up on the screen. We have screenshots on these forums.

    You do not NEED to run projectile hate to defeat pistols thief, any combination of 2 of dodge, block, invuln, cc or reflect will BREAK this build. Reflect will actually KILL this build. Focus fire will KILL this build without using a single defensive ability.

    Again answer my question: why should the game be balanced around your inability to execute any number of obvious counters to a build?

    I'm not playing chrono ? You care too much defending that build, is that what you play?:DDDDDDDDD
    If we speak about p/p DE you wont go away that easy because stun trait.Thats next level thieves that have 1 or few brain cells.
    Why you keep insisting that I cant ? I havent seen p/p thieves at all ,except few french hackers.
    At start i just pointed out if people running meta builds ,they lack said projectile hate . Why so much hate xD

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect .

    So you either reflect or get 100 -0 in a second? Is this what it comes down to? This is the problem with the gw2 community, that you have people who defend this type of game play. I don't care what class it is, you should not be able to 100 - 0 a player within in a second, let alone just pressing ONE button. Its not just a "thief" thing. Damage across the board needs to be toned down significantly and firebrand needs to NOT be a healer.

    Implying that reflect is the only way to defeat the build now? We listed the number of ways to defeat the build, THEY ARE QUITE NUMEROUS, and the build itself is trash tier. I'm getting really kitten tired of people whining because they failed to press one of the 16+ buttons on their skill bar to prevent death. THE ONLY reason I even brought up reflect is because reflect outright DEFEATS the build by using a defensive ability.

    Name one other build in gw2 that LITERALLY dies instantly from full hp because it attacked into a defensive ability?

    I'm sorry but this isn't a case of defending a build like chronomancer which is obviously op and has no real counter, this is a build with A kitten MULTITUDE of EASILY EXECUTED COUNTERS, and your failure to use any of them is on you, not on the opponent, not on thief mains, and certainly not on anet's balance team for making a build that is easily countered but people are not smart enough to do it.

    Why should the game be balanced around your inability to activate a counter to a build? "BUT AH DON'T WHANT TAH PRESS MAH COUNTA PISTAHLS BUTTON" is not an excuse to nerf a build.

    You totally miss the point.

  • Bossun.2046Bossun.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    This is a funny thing tbh. Whenever I use this build and play against a FB/Scourge comp for pretty much every fight the FB NEVER uses bubble reflect. Ez kills when that happens.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    I'm missing the point? People are calling for nerfs to a build that is actually trash, what is the point if that isn't it?

    Yes, you take it as a personal attack on the thief class. So I will make it very clear and simple:

    Nothing should exist in a competitive gaming environment that can 100 - 0 in around a second. This can apply to ANY class. I do not want to hear about reflect, that is irrelevant. Because I will still tell you that skills, builds that can kill a player in a second SHOULD NOT exist. Period.

    Do you understand why health exists and why each player doesn't have 1 health? Health represents the amount of chances you have to win. Design wise, higher health and natural sturdiness illustrates that this class/build has many chances to win at the cost of something else. However, when you have a skill or build that can kill anything in a second, regardless of the amount of health or toughness this this negates the whole point of having health bar. Since it doesn't matter if you have 100 health or 20,000 health. The result is the same. That is my point.

  • Airdive.2613Airdive.2613 Member ✭✭✭

    Unload is actually the easiest to counter since it creates a 1.5-second window of vulnerability during which you know the thief doesn't want to dodge. That's more than enough time to down him.

  • Legatus.3608Legatus.3608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2018

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    I'm missing the point? People are calling for nerfs to a build that is actually trash, what is the point if that isn't it?

    Yes, you take it as a personal attack on the thief class. So I will make it very clear and simple:

    Nothing should exist in a competitive gaming environment that can 100 - 0 in around a second. This can apply to ANY class. I do not want to hear about reflect, that is irrelevant. Because I will still tell you that skills, builds that can kill a player in a second SHOULD NOT exist. Period.

    Do you understand why health exists and why each player doesn't have 1 health? Health represents the amount of chances you have to win. Design wise, higher health and natural sturdiness illustrates that this class/build has many chances to win at the cost of something else. However, when you have a skill or build that can kill anything in a second, regardless of the amount of health or toughness this this negates the whole point of having health bar. Since it doesn't matter if you have 100 health or 20,000 health. The result is the same. That is my point.

    Well by your logic pretty much every build in the game should be nerfed then. I don't think there are any damage-oriented builds in gw2 that cannot do 20k or more damage within a second if the other player is just standing there afk. Why should pistols thief get nerfed when all these other builds can do it as well?

    You did not come here to complain about the time to kill of gw2, you came here to complain about pistols thief. And you have no justification to that end so far in this thread.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    Well by your logic pretty much every build in the game should be nerfed then. I don't think there are any damage-oriented builds in gw2 that cannot do 20k or more damage within a second if the other player is just standing there afk. Why should pistols thief get nerfed when all these other builds can do it as well?

    Correct, thats why I told you do not look at it as a direct attack on the thief profession. Because its not. Ultimately the only thing this type of damage does is push the game into a direction were only long durations of block, evade and invul are the only things that keep you from dying. This is wrong, it creates a highly polarized game play where skill is absent.

    Health needs to matter, natural defense needs to matter.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:
    Oh look everyone, it's our daily qq thread about how thief is broken because "3 spam is op" even though the build is bad and easily defeated by pressing any reflect .

    So you either reflect or get 100 -0 in a second? Is this what it comes down to? This is the problem with the gw2 community, that you have people who defend this type of game play. I don't care what class it is, you should not be able to 100 - 0 a player within in a second, let alone just pressing ONE button. Its not just a "thief" thing. Damage across the board needs to be toned down significantly and firebrand needs to NOT be a healer.

    Implying that reflect is the only way to defeat the build now? We listed the number of ways to defeat the build, THEY ARE QUITE NUMEROUS, and the build itself is trash tier. I'm getting really kitten tired of people whining because they failed to press one of the 16+ buttons on their skill bar to prevent death. THE ONLY reason I even brought up reflect is because reflect outright DEFEATS the build by using a defensive ability.

    Name one other build in gw2 that LITERALLY dies instantly from full hp because it attacked into a defensive ability?

    I'm sorry but this isn't a case of defending a build like chronomancer which is obviously op and has no real counter, this is a build with A kitten MULTITUDE of EASILY EXECUTED COUNTERS, and your failure to use any of them is on you, not on the opponent, not on thief mains, and certainly not on anet's balance team for making a build that is easily countered but people are not smart enough to do it.

    Why should the game be balanced around your inability to activate a counter to a build? "BUT AH DON'T WHANT TAH PRESS MAH COUNTA PISTAHLS BUTTON" is not an excuse to nerf a build.

    You totally miss the point.

    I'm missing the point? People are calling for nerfs to a build that is actually trash, what is the point if that isn't it?

    And Odik I am sorry but your english isn't good enough for me to understand you. I cannot understand your last 2 posts.

    What I do understand is that OP builds force the meta. During scourge+mesmer condi meta for example, EVERY BUILD needed to have condi cleanse. Here we are in a meta where none of the meta builds are running projectile reflect and everyone is whining about p/p thief. Justified? The meta says no.

    Too bad for you , my friends dont have problems with it , if you cant understand anything thats problem with you xD

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    Well by your logic pretty much every build in the game should be nerfed then. I don't think there are any damage-oriented builds in gw2 that cannot do 20k or more damage within a second if the other player is just standing there afk. Why should pistols thief get nerfed when all these other builds can do it as well?

    Correct, thats why I told you do not look at it as a direct attack on the thief profession. Because its not. Ultimately the only thing this type of damage does is push the game into a direction were only long durations of block, evade and invul are the only things that keep you from dying. This is wrong, it creates a highly polarized game play where skill is absent.

    Health needs to matter, natural defense needs to matter.

    HEALTH does matter. A warrior in zerker gear has an 8k health advantage out of the gate compared to a zerker thief. You can one shot kill a zerker thief with a warrior. If you are suggesting this not be possible then all of those warrior attacks have to drop significantly in damage. Now look at the perspective of thief. If his damage is not supposed to be anough to one shot another class in zerker gear then all of his damage has to be gutted significantly.

    How does that thief now make up for the 8k health advantage warrior gets out of the gate?

    Now assume all that damage gutted across the board in power attacks so no build can be killed in your one second. This means a maximum damage attack against a zerker type build would have to be around 10k . That damage then plummets against persons with higher armor and things like protection running which leads to more tank builds and fights that never end. This then leads to more condition builds to counter.

    There is no skill argument here. There more skill involved in dodging those big attacks, or blocking them or reflecting them then there is just eating the damage and relying on health , armor and advantages in heals to self correct all your mistakes and when those health/armor and other things like easier access to protection or better heals give you a significant advantage over classes that do not rely on such then SKILL removed entirely.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    HEALTH does matter.

    It does not matter. If these high damage builds melt 20k health + in a second, then it melts 10k health in a second as well. What does a extra 10k health provide? A millisecond more? Thats not even a human reaction time.

    I've tested thoroughly. I tried barbarian amulet with warrior, I melted in a second to high damage builds. I tried barbarian amulet with rev, (who has the highest raw condi mitigation in the game) and I melted in a second. It does NOT matter. You can go try yourself. If it mattered adding extra vitality would be a talked about way to counter the high damage builds going around. But its not, because you know why? Health means nothing.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭

    All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+....its a great start or finisher to a dps rotation but i guess the devs just arnt as smart as we all thought. They make classes like ele that require 3-6 actions to accomplish the same goals but say f it when ever they feel like it....this game is in the decline for sure....at least it is for me.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+....its a great start or finisher to a dps rotation but i guess the devs just arnt as smart as we all thought. They make classes like ele that require 3-6 actions to accomplish the same goals but say f it when ever they feel like it....this game is in the decline for sure....at least it is for me.

    why no class should be able to do it?
    i mean can steal > cloak and dagger > backstab prolly same effect with faster dmg out put and u most likely wont even be able to react at all.

    good old D/D thief core build is actually pretty darn fun in WvW, i sPvP its not much of a use i guess cus of CD on steal (not really needed but handy)
    theres many ways for thief to diss out more dmg within 1.5 second frame just because i have to press more buttons its okay? ;)
    look at mesmer blowing ur kitten to the moon within a second, just because they press few buttons its okay? while any kitten keyboard could turn this into 1 button also.

    Pistol on thief has already been nerfed to point that its quite useless, if u die to this troll build ur doing something wrong even if he bangs out 50k dmg in 1,5second if u just face tank a complete unload

  • ezd.6359ezd.6359 Member ✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @Legatus.3608 said:

    Well by your logic pretty much every build in the game should be nerfed then. I don't think there are any damage-oriented builds in gw2 that cannot do 20k or more damage within a second if the other player is just standing there afk. Why should pistols thief get nerfed when all these other builds can do it as well?

    Correct, thats why I told you do not look at it as a direct attack on the thief profession. Because its not. Ultimately the only thing this type of damage does is push the game into a direction were only long durations of block, evade and invul are the only things that keep you from dying. This is wrong, it creates a highly polarized game play where skill is absent.

    Health needs to matter, natural defense needs to matter.

    Free tip: try to wear something tanky.

    Ultimately the only thing this type of damage does is push the game into a direction were only long durations of block, evade and invul are the only things that keep you from dying.
    No. Since main pvp maps are "conquest" opposite moves will force everyone to play even more tanky builds. We will have 0-0 matches.

    Try to adapt, know your weak sides, abuse your class strong sides, play around it.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+

    The problem with P/P for Thief is there is no other button worth mashing instead of 3 other than the occasional Headshot. Literally.

    I tried a Wizard P/P build based around Poison. I was thinking to use Body Shot to apply lots of Poison and Headshot for Torment/Boon steal... and after doing so, quickly found out that I can do more damage with a pure power/crit build using only Unload. Not only is it faster, but it frees my utilities and traits up to give a lot more sustainability.

    I wish it were not like that, but that's the truth. Because the Thief suffers from being built around damage multipliers, and hybrid builds have always been outclassed by pure builds in that respect.

    Trust me, I wish that the Dagger and Sword had the hitting power of P/P... melee is how the Thief should be played (it's how I've played outside the last two days). Unfortuantely, Anet has given us the old switcharoo.

    But going back to the P/P skill set, Unload is the only skill worth using. AA is fine when out of initiative, but it's not effective like the Dagger or Sword was. Body Shot is a tactical skill, but why waste 4 initiative when you can Unload with 5 and proc Panic Strike? Headshot is great when you need to deny a stomp, but again, why waste 4 initiative on delaying an attack when you may be able to kill or scare a target away with Unload's 5? Black Powder is a defensive skill, but it's extremely weak after the nerf to its pulsing... definitely not worth the initiative cost to a P/P Thief.

    I can only speak for Core Thief, so elites may have different reasoning. And again, I would much prefer the Dagger or Sword to hit hard instead of the Pistol or Rifle. Anet digress with me, however.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    HEALTH does matter.

    It does not matter. If these high damage builds melt 20k health + in a second, then it melts 10k health in a second as well. What does a extra 10k health provide? A millisecond more? Thats not even a human reaction time.

    I've tested thoroughly. I tried barbarian amulet with warrior, I melted in a second to high damage builds. I tried barbarian amulet with rev, (who has the highest raw condi mitigation in the game) and I melted in a second. It does NOT matter. You can go try yourself. If it mattered adding extra vitality would be a talked about way to counter the high damage builds going around. But its not, because you know why? Health means nothing.

    Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds. Most skills take 3/4 a second and more to activate. You do not have to react in a millisecond.. Were health to make no difference everyone would be in zerker, everywhere and were it as bad as you say it is every single fight would be over in a second. I will tell you what, instead of a warrior with 18k health plus base roll up a thief with 11k. If a warrior with 18k can not last more then a second then you should be having no problems with any thief in game as they should all be dead.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds.

    Light armor targets die in maybe half the channel time. Heavy armor targets need a full unload 1/2. Medium armor targets die with a full unload, or 1.5secs.

  • Majirah.5089Majirah.5089 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds.

    Light armor targets die in maybe half the channel time. Heavy armor targets need a full unload 1/2. Medium armor targets die with a full unload, or 1.5secs.

    This is hyperbole. I haven’t died to a single unload, or even 2 unloads, on any armor rating. Mainly because I’m not afk. It’s quite easy to not eat a full unload. Dodge, block, use a skill with evade, interrupt, reflect...the list goes on. Then they also don’t get the initiative refund. Without the refund the skill is expensive.

    Also for this to even be possible when the thief is targeting an afk player the thief has to be full glass in zerker. Zerker thieves die very fast. I’m never worried about going up against a team with a pp thief. They are usually just a liability. Only thing they are good against is scourges. Even then a proper thief will do just fine.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Majirah.5089 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    Oh come on enough of the hyperbole. A millisecond? Are you kidding me? The channel of the Unload is 1.5 seconds.

    Light armor targets die in maybe half the channel time. Heavy armor targets need a full unload 1/2. Medium armor targets die with a full unload, or 1.5secs.

    This is hyperbole. I haven’t died to a single unload, or even 2 unloads, on any armor rating. Mainly because I’m not afk. It’s quite easy to not eat a full unload. Dodge, block, use a skill with evade, interrupt, reflect...the list goes on. Then they also don’t get the initiative refund. Without the refund the skill is expensive.

    Also for this to even be possible when the thief is targeting an afk player the thief has to be full glass in zerker. Zerker thieves die very fast. I’m never worried about going up against a team with a pp thief. They are usually just a liability. Only thing they are good against is scourges. Even then a proper thief will do just fine.

    So your argument is that you dodged or blocked. Ok. But what does this have to do with a build that has 4k power, 75% crit rate and 240% crit damage chewing through armor? I'm not even sure why you mentioned armor rating, like you are magically exempt from it. You aren't, you just "avoided" a one second death. That isn't a very good argument you know. Since its a 5v5 game what does this mean? Its not a 1v1 game. Which means you aren't going to save your cooldowns, dodges etc for that one encounter with thief. Its not a realistic scenario and you should know this.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Eddbopkins.2630 said:
    All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+....its a great start or finisher to a dps rotation but i guess the devs just arnt as smart as we all thought. They make classes like ele that require 3-6 actions to accomplish the same goals but say f it when ever they feel like it....this game is in the decline for sure....at least it is for me.

    why no class should be able to do it?
    i mean can steal > cloak and dagger > backstab prolly same effect with faster dmg out put and u most likely wont even be able to react at all.

    good old D/D thief core build is actually pretty darn fun in WvW, i sPvP its not much of a use i guess cus of CD on steal (not really needed but handy)
    theres many ways for thief to diss out more dmg within 1.5 second frame just because i have to press more buttons its okay? ;)
    look at mesmer blowing ur kitten to the moon within a second, just because they press few buttons its okay? while any kitten keyboard could turn this into 1 button also.

    Pistol on thief has already been nerfed to point that its quite useless, if u die to this troll build ur doing something wrong even if he bangs out 50k dmg in 1,5second if u just face tank a complete unload

    Steal cloak and dagger and backstab are all still 3 moves that can be dodged even one of them can be be punished because they are all close ranged attacks the long range advange in a team fight that happens with spamming 3 continuously within less then 1.5 secs doing 15k+ damage is kinda unfair, but i see how it can be seen as not op if you got the right team comp to counter it.....all you really need is a focus ele with wind 4 or a tempest shareing magnetic aura to team mates but those build are just so countered by other classes thar it makes a team fight weak if that particular class isnt in the enemys comp.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Aza.2105 said:

    Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.

    4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.

    And 11k health

    Also show all the boons and trait lines and utilities

    The picture combined with what you say is rather misleading

    Yes its a conspiracy theory to get thief nerfed.

    I know you play and enjoy the class, but gez man. You are doing the samething players who are emotionally tied to mesmer do. Aka what ever criticism about the class is a exaggeration and misleading.

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