25 stacks of might every where — Guild Wars 2 Forums

25 stacks of might every where

Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 15, 2018 in PVP

Everyone having access to 25 stacks of might SOLO, in addition to other damage increasing boons (fury, quickness, too a extent alacrity) is the reason for the power creep. Ever wonder why P/P can kill you in a second? They usually have almost 25 stacks of might, fury etc. Ever wonder why Mesmer is so strong while having a paladin amulet? 25 stacks of might and high durations of every other boon. Why is holosmith so strong? 25 stacks of might and nearly every other boon.

It needs to be changed. There should be no way that one character solo should be able to have access to 25 stacks of might and high up time of other boons. 25 stacks of might should be reserved for team synergy, not one character. I believe if Anet either changed how much power/condi might offers in pvp or significantly lower how much access a single profession has of might and other boons. Then we will see a significant decrease in bursty damage all around.

Nearly every class has access to almost every boon in high duration or intensity at all times. When you journey back to the beginning of the game, it was not like this. A skill like staff #4 on guardian was considered good because it provided the team with so much might at once. Because might wasn't in abundance nor were any other boons really. Not anymore.

Ben, Anet, you guys need to seriously re-examine how much and how often a single class has access to boons. Particularly the damage increasing ones.

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Comments

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Way too much logic man, you need to say something like "Mesmer Blink or portal is OP" if you want to fit in around here.

    Why not both? There is too much of everything in this game since HoT

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agreed. Might is way too easy to access in the game right now. It shouldn't be possible for any one class to provide more than 10 might to themselves. You should have to work together to get high might stacks

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  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thats been obvious long time ago but only now people started to realize that problem...

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Old DD cantrip ele looks pale in comparison. At least it had to work a bit for it.

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:
    If you take away my 25 stacks of might you better kitten buff almost all of Revenant's damage then. Class is completely balanced around having huge might.

    Even Rev had to work for those might stacks before recently Anet decided that gaining fury should give 5 stacks when half the buttons in the build give fury.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    25 might stacks is hardly an issue.

    The issue is POF specs were given stupid extreme base damage to all of their skills both condi and power (with the exception of Renegade which was shipped utterly and completely garbage because some people maining rev still manage to farm all of you guys even with such a handicap)

    Look at holosmith for example. It has multiple skills that chunk of 30-50% of the hp pool of a class with 21k hp and some of the skills have the added effect of having hard CC and do not even require you to be facing your opponent. How stupidly broken is that?

    Holosmith has a 1.6 damage coefficient on the auto attack chain. That’s generally reserved for skills with 15-25 second cool downs lmfao, or some sort of effect that makes the skill generally hard to use.

    I’m not even going to start addressing the ridiculousness of skill like full counter which could crit for 10-12k on an 8 second cool down. (Lmfao? Was that not so game breaking it was funny?). Or mirage, or soulbeast, or 50k single attacks from deadeye or any of the other combat breaking things introduced to the game with POF

    Don’t forget the amount of healing and defences packed into them too, heat therapy for a little extra healing in your example. The way healing is just thrown out in this game now where you pick a trait or two and get what would be considered near invulnerability level of sustain a year after launch. Cast times likewise at HoT we’re quite low on major impact skills and would do multiple things at the same time and the worst part of all of this is that PoF launch (excluding scourge) was considerably less power creeped than HoT launch.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It’s extremely easy with mesmers to get 25 night stacks and if running a build similar to one I run on occasion, near permanent quickness.

    Holos I haven’t quite figured out how to get might on that high reliably but I’ve seen it plenty.

    Warriors are also an issue.

    So many builds right now that are low risk due to passive and active invulns and damage mitigation on top of running tanky amulets but ultimately dish out a lot more damage than they should compared to some other profession with a less favorable build that has to run full glass of full support, like ele for example. (Weaver being an exception if you run sage water build but even then you won’t be dishing out as easy damage as a warrior or spell breaker with demolishes amulet interrupt spamming and standing in everything bad or having seemingly constant immunity to control effects.)

    The problem in most cases isn’t the amulet itself so much as these builds or elite specs designed to use the amulets too efficiently.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Felipe.1807 said:
    been saying this since a long time...back in the day on the cele meta, Warriors and Eles atleast had to work for all that might, blasting fire fields and everything, these days is just equip X trait and get all boons 24/7...honestly i have no idea what happened to the balance devs and how they let the game come at this point that we are now.

    Even now as a sword weaver you have to work pretty hard to get high might stacks, and that’s with two fire fields and multiple blast finishers. But part of that problem is the fact that ele still has to run water for sustain versus an engineer that had traits that grant constant protection and condi cleanse from gaining protection, grant heals from blast finishers, reduce damage with boons, and naturally have a base health way higher than a lot of other classes like thief, guardian, and ele. Holos and warriors not only get sustainable damage that’s comparable to a fresh air scepter ele or thief’s few seconds of burst, but can do so while having a way higher health pool and even running more defensive amulets.

    I guess this is way beside the point, but I agree. Boon spam in general is a little crazy right now and instead of adding scourges to bring boon corruption or spell breakers to boon removal as counter play it might have been better to just tone down boons to begin with.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    25 might stacks is hardly an issue.

    The issue is POF specs were given stupid extreme base damage to all of their skills both condi and power (with the exception of Renegade which was shipped utterly and completely garbage because some people maining rev still manage to farm all of you guys even with such a handicap)

    Look at holosmith for example. It has multiple skills that chunk of 30-50% of the hp pool of a class with 21k hp and some of the skills have the added effect of having hard CC and do not even require you to be facing your opponent. How stupidly broken is that?

    Holosmith has a 1.6 damage coefficient on the auto attack chain. That’s generally reserved for skills with 15-25 second cool downs lmfao, or some sort of effect that makes the skill generally hard to use.

    I’m not even going to start addressing the ridiculousness of skill like full counter which could crit for 10-12k on an 8 second cool down. (Lmfao? Was that not so game breaking it was funny?). Or mirage, or soulbeast, or 50k single attacks from deadeye or any of the other combat breaking things introduced to the game with POF

    Yes, skill and trait design for all the elite specs is horrible in terms of balance. But that doesn't mean that being able to get 25 stacks of might alone is "hardly an issue"

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  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    25 might stacks is hardly an issue.

    The issue is POF specs were given stupid extreme base damage to all of their skills both condi and power (with the exception of Renegade which was shipped utterly and completely garbage because some people maining rev still manage to farm all of you guys even with such a handicap)

    Look at holosmith for example. It has multiple skills that chunk of 30-50% of the hp pool of a class with 21k hp and some of the skills have the added effect of having hard CC and do not even require you to be facing your opponent. How stupidly broken is that?

    Holosmith has a 1.6 damage coefficient on the auto attack chain. That’s generally reserved for skills with 15-25 second cool downs lmfao, or some sort of effect that makes the skill generally hard to use.

    I’m not even going to start addressing the ridiculousness of skill like full counter which could crit for 10-12k on an 8 second cool down. (Lmfao? Was that not so game breaking it was funny?). Or mirage, or soulbeast, or 50k single attacks from deadeye or any of the other combat breaking things introduced to the game with POF

    Yes, skill and trait design for all the elite specs is horrible in terms of balance. But that doesn't mean that being able to get 25 stacks of might alone is "hardly an issue"

    Especially when removing the heavy boon access of builds would severely help the issue of builds being able to do too much of everything. Might and fury allows for insane damage on bunker builds and prot with regen allows for bursty glass builds to be super tanky.

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  • BikeIsGone.8675BikeIsGone.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

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  • agreed. This is what happens when you get rid of unique boons/hexes (GW1) and use a universal system that eventually differentiates itself by allowing specs to stack a condi or boon more effectively than previous builds, and then whenever they need to differentiate more they just add new, better ways to stack these effects. Eventually you get maxed out on how far you can go and anything that can't stack boons as such is considered weak. It also makes 25 stacks the norm so everything is balanced around such, and in the end they could just do away with might or whatever because everything becomes normalized around having full stacks of the boon and it doesn't require skill to get there.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would honestly like it if might was something simple like "increase damage and condition damage by 5-10%" flat and non-stackable. I feel like a lot of the reason might is thrown around so flippantly is because of raids and the expectation to have perma 25 might stacks. I mean really, 750 of 2 stats is absolutely ridiculous. Changing the way the boon works would require a ton of adjustments for skills for all classes, but I would like to see the way might currently exists in the game completely gone.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

    Well, ideally we would see a balance patch that addresses all of:

    • boon spam
    • condi spam
    • boon rip spam
    • boon convert spam
    • condi clear spam

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

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  • Kiroshima.8497Kiroshima.8497 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

    That's actually an interesting idea, and I would like to see that on both boons and conditions. In fact, conditions could be nerfed burst wise if they didnt have such a hard counter. Then we can adjust resistance to reduce potency by 33% (even on non-damage conditions) so it isn't a stupidly hard counter with limited class access.

    Then we could have a select few skills that are "complete" removal with long cooldowns, as a panic button or last line of defense. Things like Corrupt Boon would destroy all stacks of every boon but with a longer cooldown, or Contemplation of Purity would get rid of all stacks of conditions with a longer cooldown.

    You'd have to reduce the damage of all conditions and increase their durations by a similar amount.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    25 might stacks is hardly an issue.

    The issue is POF specs were given stupid extreme base damage to all of their skills both condi and power (with the exception of Renegade which was shipped utterly and completely garbage because some people maining rev still manage to farm all of you guys even with such a handicap)

    Look at holosmith for example. It has multiple skills that chunk of 30-50% of the hp pool of a class with 21k hp and some of the skills have the added effect of having hard CC and do not even require you to be facing your opponent. How stupidly broken is that?

    Holosmith has a 1.6 damage coefficient on the auto attack chain. That’s generally reserved for skills with 15-25 second cool downs lmfao, or some sort of effect that makes the skill generally hard to use.

    I’m not even going to start addressing the ridiculousness of skill like full counter which could crit for 10-12k on an 8 second cool down. (Lmfao? Was that not so game breaking it was funny?). Or mirage, or soulbeast, or 50k single attacks from deadeye or any of the other combat breaking things introduced to the game with POF

    Yes, skill and trait design for all the elite specs is horrible in terms of balance. But that doesn't mean that being able to get 25 stacks of might alone is "hardly an issue"

    Many things have been nerfed over the years and now 25 might is just how specialists hulk out, and generalists maintain overall potential. Relative strength matters so much more than intensity that max stacks are hardly an issue.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm surprised nobody brought up Vulnerability yet, it's almost as big of a problem as Might is.
    I agree with others here that the potency/frequency of some of the offensive boons and their application is way too high in the game at the moment.

    Fury just needs a straight up nerf to give 10% crit chance in all game modes. With capped crit chances in raids, the Precision based stat types/runes/sigils are made completely useless because there's no point in bringing them when crit chance is already capped. It would be nice for those to have some meaning again.
    Might should be split into 2 separate boons, 1 for power(Might) and 1 for condition damage(Potency). The same goes for Vulnerability, 1 for power(Sundered) and 1 for condition damage(Vulnerability).

    The application frequency discussion should happen on a class-by-class basis so I won't go into that here.

    Why I want these changes is that while it reduces damage potential and powercreep on professions, it would also bring more interesting build craft into the game. The only reason to not do it, is that it is a lot of work.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

    Well, ideally we would see a balance patch that addresses all of:

    • boon spam
    • condi spam
    • boon rip spam
    • boon convert spam
    • condi clear spam

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

    On the other hand how would it be fair for a boon rip to take all your protection but only take a single or only a few stacks of a stacking boon?

    As someone that does use boon strip I generally have to spike it through shatters to get rid of stab so I can interrupt, if all I would do is remove a single stack at a time I’d not bother traiting or investing in boon rip. I’d also probably not bother with interrupt builds unless stab was massively reduced in duration which would cause even more problems. The current stab and strip relationship isn’t perfect but it is far better than the alternatives and I do not agree that it is a problem even with might.

    I don’t see many people complaining about SB removing boons except for WoD and I don’t often see people complaining about a mesmer, they complain mostly about necro. I think most of that comes from the amount of auto trigger corrupts/removal it has while also having huge amounts in scourge.

    It goes without saying that addressing the spam would be ideal though.

  • bigo.9037bigo.9037 Member ✭✭✭

    If you want to nerf might stacking.. and you think specs/classes have too much dps in general..... I must ask: are you playing a bunker and are you upset you cant tank a point 1v2 just by running in circles?

    Im kidding. but seriously. some specs do need dmg nerfs such as chronomancer and maybe mirage too. but other than that... if you nerf the DPS of specs... we will just see bunker meta all over again. and no one will die. bunker meta is for scrubs. its never as much of an accomplishment to "not die" as it is to defeat someone. playing just defensively is easy. but balancing your strategy to go both defensive when needed and offensive when needed takes more skill.

    Revs dont need dmg nerf imo. I dont think the dps is too high as is atm on most specs. only individual specs need a nerf but its not necessarily dmg that needs to be nerfed.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

    Well, ideally we would see a balance patch that addresses all of:

    • boon spam
    • condi spam
    • boon rip spam
    • boon convert spam
    • condi clear spam

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

    On the other hand how would it be fair for a boon rip to take all your protection but only take a single or only a few stacks of a stacking boon?

    As someone that does use boon strip I generally have to spike it through shatters to get rid of stab so I can interrupt, if all I would do is remove a single stack at a time I’d not bother traiting or investing in boon rip. I’d also probably not bother with interrupt builds unless stab was massively reduced in duration which would cause even more problems. The current stab and strip relationship isn’t perfect but it is far better than the alternatives and I do not agree that it is a problem even with might.

    I don’t see many people complaining about SB removing boons except for WoD and I don’t often see people complaining about a mesmer, they complain mostly about necro. I think most of that comes from the amount of auto trigger corrupts/removal it has while also having huge amounts in scourge.

    It goes without saying that addressing the spam would be ideal though.

    This wasn't targetted at mesmer, we just had a ver convenient example of a boon strip on an auto chain. I really don't agree with something that has no CD being able to strip 25 stacks of any boon, as its far too easy to access. Similarly, I don't agree with other boon strips on low CDs being able to do the same. This is a problem gamewide, I just used us as a general, easy to access example.

    I do see where you are coming from. Especially with stuff like protection, where under this system strips would have a disproportionate impact on protection vs might/stab.

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  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe Might-stripping should be a completely separate thing from boon stripping... I dunno, jk maybe. Kappa.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

    Well, ideally we would see a balance patch that addresses all of:

    • boon spam
    • condi spam
    • boon rip spam
    • boon convert spam
    • condi clear spam

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

    On the other hand how would it be fair for a boon rip to take all your protection but only take a single or only a few stacks of a stacking boon?

    As someone that does use boon strip I generally have to spike it through shatters to get rid of stab so I can interrupt, if all I would do is remove a single stack at a time I’d not bother traiting or investing in boon rip. I’d also probably not bother with interrupt builds unless stab was massively reduced in duration which would cause even more problems. The current stab and strip relationship isn’t perfect but it is far better than the alternatives and I do not agree that it is a problem even with might.

    I don’t see many people complaining about SB removing boons except for WoD and I don’t often see people complaining about a mesmer, they complain mostly about necro. I think most of that comes from the amount of auto trigger corrupts/removal it has while also having huge amounts in scourge.

    It goes without saying that addressing the spam would be ideal though.

    This wasn't targetted at mesmer, we just had a ver convenient example of a boon strip on an auto chain. I really don't agree with something that has no CD being able to strip 25 stacks of any boon, as its far too easy to access. Similarly, I don't agree with other boon strips on low CDs being able to do the same. This is a problem gamewide, I just used us as a general, easy to access example.

    I do see where you are coming from. Especially with stuff like protection, where under this system strips would have a disproportionate impact on protection vs might/stab.

    Doesn’t matter if it’s mesmer, SB, engy mine, necro or some future spec, I think the whole stack should be removed/corrupted. The only boon removal on auto I think is an issue is ranged boon removal where you essentially can always hit it at the end of the auto attack. Melee auto attacks are easily strafed or you can walk through the player to avoid the attack most of the time.

    As I say almost no one is complaining about mesmer boon rips or SB outside of the elite, the biggest issue is certainly necro where it not only rips but converts them which is a lot stronger.

  • Sandzibar.5134Sandzibar.5134 Member ✭✭✭

    Didnt the last patch make changes to reduce the might uptime on rangers?

    Odd that they felt that the might uptime and generation on holo and mesmer (who have a much even easier time doing it) didnt warrant similar changes at the same time.

  • Kraitan.8476Kraitan.8476 Member ✭✭✭

    Saw a mesmer the other day, we were waiting for the match to start and he had basicly perm boons on him including 18s alacrity. this was out of combat. in base. HOW WAS THAT A GOOD DESIGN CHOICE ANET. Where did we go wrong?

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    boon spam, damage, defenses and healing are all over tuned. but you can't work on one without fixing the others.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    When you look at the state of the game and what has happened over the course of the last 5 years. Its that Anet has continued to casually give boons to all traits and skills. I'm not surprised that they haven't made traits that give boons just by running. One thing I noticed is that defense hasn't gotten the same treatment as offense. Health values are the same as they were at launch, so are max toughness values. Mean while damage has went up and up by allowing classes to run around with 25 stacks of might solo as well as all the damage increase modifiers they continue to add.

    Defense in comparison hasn't gotten much of anything. Rarely do we get traits that just reduce damage by a flat amount. There are some such as: Signet of Judgement, A minor trait in the rev retribution line, kalla grandmaster trait, I believe engi has a few too. Actually out of every profession, rev has the best raw mitigation in the game. Yet it doesn't really help them against condi onslaught as well as burst damage. I believe the reason is that they have requirements to activate them or they simply don't last long.

    A good example is the kalla heal, no one talks about it really. It reduces condi dmg by 50% for all allies in range. It lasts around 10 secs but the heal can be CCed, causing the effect to vanish. When its stacked with the kalla GM trait, dwarf hammers and even rite of the great dwarf. It provides great defense against condi damage. But it doesn't last long enough to counter high condition damage. Design wise, what defenses we have are mostly on a restriction compared to the high damage output which generally has a long duration. Maybe what they could do is simply limit the damage output similar to how most defenses are designed.

    This could introduce some problems though, like someone mentioned...the bunker meta. Bunkers would need to be nerfed accordingly. I believe that impactful offense and defensive skills that have restrictions (specific requirements, duration, cooldown) would be better for the game. Since it would require conscious decision if it will be a good or bad thing to blow it. Right now, offense like might stacking can be used with impunity. Which causes many issues.

    Just my thoughts.

  • Atmaweapon.7345Atmaweapon.7345 Member ✭✭✭

    A quarter of these posts are hating on holo for things they already nerfed.

    -Damage nerfed. Holo auto-chain deals less damage than 3 Bomb kit autos. Also, Firebrand has a 2.4 power coefficient on an axe auto and Core warrior has a 3.1 total coefficient on an axe auto (though it's slow). Double standards?

    -Might generation on Corona was nerfed.

    -The only particularlly hardhitting CC attack holo has is its elite.

    -Complaining about Engineer having mid-tier health.

    The holo nerfs reduced their Might stacking and the only way Holo can get a full bar of Boons is by converting a full bar of Conditions which both Engi and Guardian could do since launch.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Personally I dont mind multiple classes having access to a broader spectrum of boons.
    The problem is the number of stacks applied and the time investment in particular.
    Old D/D cele ele (in vanilla) had a very slow but steady way of building up might. The longer the fight was, the more dangerous the spec became. That "race against time"-scenario had a very nice feel to it, especially since there were various counterplay options to it (chill for instance screwed them over pretty hard).
    Now people really only have press 1 or 2 skills and are capped out on might, if they dont even do so with mere passive procs alone. 25 might right off the bat is really stupid imo......but then again, with scourge and spellbreaker and all other forms of boonstrip around, the devs really brought this upon themselves....shame really.

    Unfortunately that's a really good point, how would one build up might in the current situation with the amount of boon strip going on at the moment.. I guess you couldn't tone down might stacking skills without toning down the corruption and stripping.

    Well, ideally we would see a balance patch that addresses all of:

    • boon spam
    • condi spam
    • boon rip spam
    • boon convert spam
    • condi clear spam

    at the same time. However, that aside, it might be time for strips to be redesigned. Even though its mostly trivial to get 25 might now, is it really ok for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? Or if you have 25 stacks of stab, is it acceptable for a single strip to strip all 25 stacks? In cases like mind spike where the strip is on an auto chain, I don't think this is appropriate. I really want to see strips be updated to have a maximum stack stripped detail. Strips that are supposed to be very powerful could keep this limit at 25 stacks, while strips that are easier to access could maybe have a cap of 10 or so.

    On the other hand how would it be fair for a boon rip to take all your protection but only take a single or only a few stacks of a stacking boon?

    As someone that does use boon strip I generally have to spike it through shatters to get rid of stab so I can interrupt, if all I would do is remove a single stack at a time I’d not bother traiting or investing in boon rip. I’d also probably not bother with interrupt builds unless stab was massively reduced in duration which would cause even more problems. The current stab and strip relationship isn’t perfect but it is far better than the alternatives and I do not agree that it is a problem even with might.

    I don’t see many people complaining about SB removing boons except for WoD and I don’t often see people complaining about a mesmer, they complain mostly about necro. I think most of that comes from the amount of auto trigger corrupts/removal it has while also having huge amounts in scourge.

    It goes without saying that addressing the spam would be ideal though.

    This wasn't targetted at mesmer, we just had a ver convenient example of a boon strip on an auto chain. I really don't agree with something that has no CD being able to strip 25 stacks of any boon, as its far too easy to access. Similarly, I don't agree with other boon strips on low CDs being able to do the same. This is a problem gamewide, I just used us as a general, easy to access example.

    It's the only example of boon strip on auto. Maybe stop making general statements about what you agree with, and talk about professions individually .Striping and stacking boons is different across professions and builds.

  • HadrianBlackwater.5736HadrianBlackwater.5736 Member ✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    I dont know that might stacking is the problem. There are some abilities with broken coefficients. Even after the nerfs it took Full Counter is still a garbage ability that does way too much damage on a low CD. I honestly dont know how a spell breaker ever loses to another melee build unless they are brain dead. Holo as pointed out too high damage coefficient for the types of abilities/skills that have them. Its the usual expansion fraud cram in a bunch of op stuff in to lure people into buying the expansion and then nerf it extremly slowly over time afterwards.

  • @HadrianBlackwater.5736 said:
    I dont know that might stacking is the problem. There are some abilities with broken coefficients. Even after the nerfs it took Full Counter is still a garbage ability that does way too much damage on a low CD. I honestly dont know how a spell breaker ever loses to another melee build unless they are brain dead. Holo as pointed out too high damage coefficient for the types of abilities/skills that have them. Its the usual expansion fraud cram in a bunch of op stuff in to lure people into buying the expansion and then nerf it extremly slowly over time afterwards.

    You wont be happy until FC hits like a wet noodle, will you?

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    I think we could do with some trait revamping. Figure out what exactly they want a traitline to do and how they want to do it (offensive, defensive, support, utility, etc) then split into offensive: condi, power, hybrid, etc. Just have some purity of purpose. It's ridiculous that I can go Chaos/Inspiration/Chrono and easily maintain permanent protection and 25 stacks of might in addition to the ridiculously high tooltip damage of all of my phantasms (+all the other boons I got xD).

    Boons need to be something to work for again, something to build for (or not to build for). Nearly everything you do vomits boons now. There's just no way to avoid it. It really feels like Anet has backed themselves into a corner with the boon system.

    Mind, I pick on Mesmer but nearly all the meta classes/setups have similar issues. And the non-meta classes/setups...Well, guess what they all have in common?

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2018

    Boon strip priority.

    Boom! Counter play.

  • Icy.2186Icy.2186 Member ✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Boon strip priority.

    Boom! Counter play.

    Honestly with how boons seem to appear nowdays I ( as a thief ) struggle to really strip as much as i think is necessary, only option for me right now seems to be a sigil that removes boons but the sigil is absolutely worthless compared to how fast boons seem to pop out out of nowhere.

    Every class seems to just instantly kitten out at least 6 different boons you steal 3 and they have the rest already there and the 3 you stole are back within 5 seconds. Even spamming sword / dagger 3, which most people tell you to not do, stripping boons is nearly impossible compared to how fast they go, especially with another class paired up.

    A single character now probably has a very comparable amount of boon stacks ( of all boons ) than the entire spvp team couple of years back.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2018

    @Icy.2186 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Boon strip priority.

    Boom! Counter play.

    Honestly with how boons seem to appear nowdays I ( as a thief ) struggle to really strip as much as i think is necessary, only option for me right now seems to be a sigil that removes boons but the sigil is absolutely worthless compared to how fast boons seem to pop out out of nowhere.

    Every class seems to just instantly kitten out at least 6 different boons you steal 3 and they have the rest already there and the 3 you stole are back within 5 seconds. Even spamming sword / dagger 3, which most people tell you to not do, stripping boons is nearly impossible compared to how fast they go, especially with another class paired up.

    A single character now probably has a very comparable amount of boon stacks ( of all boons ) than the entire spvp team couple of years back.

    This is exactly why I want priority, you go to 25 stacks of might, that should be the first thing removed.

    I don't think this should be the case for boon stealing though.

    But knowing A-net they'd be like "well we have to standardize it so people don't get confused" regardless of the health of the balance.

    The only other side of this is that without high boon stacked burst some builds may live to long even after the survivability nerfs.
    But the response to that should just be to not let those more tanky builds be able to strip.

  • it be easier to nerf boons and condi's effects than go through every skill and trait and gut stuff. if boons where less effective people wouldn't focus their build design around gaining them on a perma basis.

    put might to 10 points a stack
    protection to 10 points a stack (25 stacks) toughness and healing power (skill and trait changes need)
    fury to 10%
    quickness to 25% skill speed
    vigor to 25% regen
    resistance made so it only effects Damaging conditions (burning, poison, bleed, torment and confusion) (also spread out more to other professions)

  • Icy.2186Icy.2186 Member ✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Icy.2186 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Boon strip priority.

    Boom! Counter play.

    Honestly with how boons seem to appear nowdays I ( as a thief ) struggle to really strip as much as i think is necessary, only option for me right now seems to be a sigil that removes boons but the sigil is absolutely worthless compared to how fast boons seem to pop out out of nowhere.

    Every class seems to just instantly kitten out at least 6 different boons you steal 3 and they have the rest already there and the 3 you stole are back within 5 seconds. Even spamming sword / dagger 3, which most people tell you to not do, stripping boons is nearly impossible compared to how fast they go, especially with another class paired up.

    A single character now probably has a very comparable amount of boon stacks ( of all boons ) than the entire spvp team couple of years back.

    This is exactly why I want priority, you go to 25 stacks of might, that should be the first thing removed.

    I don't think this should be the case for boon stealing though.

    But knowing A-net they'd be like "well we have to standardize it so people don't get confused" regardless of the health of the balance.

    The only other side of this is that without high boon stacked burst some builds may live to long even after the survivability nerfs.
    But the response to that should just be to not let those more tanky builds be able to strip.

    Problem with a standardised boon strip priorty is that it would probably get you kitten over a lot of the times. If you prioritise 25 might all the time ( for example ) or a highly stacked boon ( lets say thieves 1 minute of swiftness ) youll sometimes end up missing out on stealing stability or with s/d you wont strip block specifically. Even if a necro has 25 stacks of might id more so prefer stealing stability first.
    I find it silly that were even brainstorming this idea, considering the fact that the boon strip priority even starts being a topic of discussion when everyone has so many boons of ridiculous stacks that you cannot even strip them all with an ability that has a 20 second cooldown ( with most builds ) and if you fail you get hit for 10k.
    Against holosmiths for example, ive noticed that if i dont have steal up when they transform i have immediately lost the fight.

    Whether it be reducing effectiveness of boons or limiting how fast specs can get them and how easily it is to stack, limiting stacks and whatever other option may be. I agree with Nightmare.1234 that it would be better to standardise and tone down boons all together than go through every specific ability and balance everything separately. Its more work, and its harder work all together.

  • Kraitan.8476Kraitan.8476 Member ✭✭✭

    I hope scaling this down is somewhere on the table

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Nightmare.1234 said:
    it be easier to nerf boons and condi's effects than go through every skill and trait and gut stuff. if boons where less effective people wouldn't focus their build design around gaining them on a perma basis.

    put might to 10 points a stack
    protection to 10 points a stack (25 stacks) toughness and healing power (skill and trait changes need)
    fury to 10%
    quickness to 25% skill speed
    vigor to 25% regen
    resistance made so it only effects Damaging conditions (burning, poison, bleed, torment and confusion) (also spread out more to other professions)

    No thanks. As broken and unbalanced as the current system is it is far better than what you have put here.

    Sometimes solutions are easy and might not take too long. Sometimes the solution is tedious, boring and takes a long time.

    This is one of the times where they need to have the stones to admit when they were wrong, remove concentration and expertise and keep them only on runes and in certain traits to keep a handle on them. Then they need to systematically go through all the traits and skills and reduce how much they do, how many boons they give and how much conditions are being spat out.

    Edit:

    I’ll nip this in the bud.
    Vigor being 15% would regenerate 0.75 endurance a second which means you gain back 1 extra dodge would take over 60s, that’s not a boon, that’s fluff.
    Quickness becoming 25% would likewise make it almost meaningless, quickness is not a 50% damage increase it is closer to half that.
    Might being at 10 power is hilarious and almost requires stacking 10-20 to be worth anything at all, even almost any %damage mod would be better.
    I’d go on but it’s basically a huge nerf to every single boon where boons are useless unless at almost max at all times.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Nightmare.1234 said:
    it be easier to nerf boons and condi's effects than go through every skill and trait and gut stuff. if boons where less effective people wouldn't focus their build design around gaining them on a perma basis.

    put might to 10 points a stack
    protection to 10 points a stack (25 stacks) toughness and healing power (skill and trait changes need)
    fury to 10%
    quickness to 25% skill speed
    vigor to 25% regen
    resistance made so it only effects Damaging conditions (burning, poison, bleed, torment and confusion) (also spread out more to other professions)

    No thanks. As broken and unbalanced as the current system is it is far better than what you have put here.

    Sometimes solutions are easy and might not take too long. Sometimes the solution is tedious, boring and takes a long time.

    This is one of the times where they need to have the stones to admit when they were wrong, remove concentration and expertise and keep them only on runes and in certain traits to keep a handle on them. Then they need to systematically go through all the traits and skills and reduce how much they do, how many boons they give and how much conditions are being spat out.

    Edit:

    I’ll nip this in the bud.
    Vigor being 15% would regenerate 0.75 endurance a second which means you gain back 1 extra dodge would take over 60s, that’s not a boon, that’s fluff.
    Quickness becoming 25% would likewise make it almost meaningless, quickness is not a 50% damage increase it is closer to half that.
    Might being at 10 power is hilarious and almost requires stacking 10-20 to be worth anything at all, even almost any %damage mod would be better.
    I’d go on but it’s basically a huge nerf to every single boon where boons are useless unless at almost max at all times.

    I agree with you. The boon system is significantly more fun, and well designed, if boons are powerful, but limited in supply. If boon spam weren't so kitten prevalent, it would be quite rewarding to build up high might on yourself in preparation for a burst, and it would feel rewarding to the other player if they stripped/corrupted it when you had actually worked to get that might. But the current amount of boon spam renders that meaningless. Much healthier to restrict access to boons, but keep them powerful

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

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