Engineer's Wishlist for Next Balance Patch

I don't really know when will next balance patch come but I have tried to gather some of the concerns I have read about here, in Reddit and inside my head about things we engi players would like to see addressed. These aren't all of them of course and I am making this post half expecting people to add their own points of view with a couple considerations:

• We don't want a broken class, we want a balanced class and balance often means getting something by giving up something else.
• We want to see things that underperform and aren't used at all to be up to par with popular builds/setups.

So here it goes, in no particular order my top three,

• Engineer Pistol Skills, many of the things that could be done about pistols can be found here: https://reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8chnnq/engineer_pistols_feel_outdated_these_days/ and as a personal note, I think there are very solid pistol skills still (blowtorch) and skills that make no sense and should be completely changed after recent changes to particular conditions (static shot). Auto could be made an explosion, its cast time actually made 0.5s and so on.
• Scrapper's Gyros, most things about them to be honest need some form of addressing, user @"Vagrant.7206" completely nails it with several of his suggestions over here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465210/#Comment_465210.
• Med Kit, there are tons of ideas and posts made about this particular kit, many good suggestions you can find in @"Chaith.8256" 's megathread about engi skills and traits over here:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/15746/how-to-balance-every-single-thing-thats-bad-on-engineer-pvp/p1
• Condition traits and how they could be more spread out between firearms/explosives; this is a personal want and I think a good way to bring condition engi back, IE not have PPD and Thermal Vision battle it out on the same tier, explosives traitline too overloaded with power traits that could be exchanged with more condi friendly ones, you name it.

I wish for:

• scrapper to be completely reworked (get some more traits aiming into tankiness, and rework stupid gyros) ;
• firearms line to get some love (now it's a clusterfuck of condi traits, crit traits and flamethrower);
• change gyros;
• core engi to get some more reliable stability;
• gyros?

I hold no hope for medkit. Sorry.

Even though i like our power horse build (holosmith) i still want to see an condi build. And of course, i would like a rework for scrapper.Even now, in open world or farm spots, like Istan i use FT build with turrets to cover ground. I don't think i will see these changes in the game, but hey...we have our hope right..right?

Here's what I want to see:

• Scrapper should have a place in any game mode. Right now, as an "elite" spec, it's still remarkably underwhelming in every game mode. Its never really seen much use in PvE, and its place in PvP is quite flimsy because it is a weak tank/support . In WvW, at best it is a backliner. Spellbreaker was buffed for PvE, yet scrapper never got the same treatment.
• My suggestions about gyros as listed in the OP.
• Core engineer kits need some serious love. Bomb kit and grenade kit are still staples of engineer DPS, and they're still complete ass to use. The other kits besides those two are weak in PvE, and the only kit I see in PvP on a semi-regular basis is Elixir Gun.
• Core pistol/pistol needs to see some love. #1 should cast at its stated time, pierce targets, and count as an AoE Explosion. #2 should pierce targets and not have any spread. #3 would be ok if confusion wasn't so weak in PvE. #4 is fine. #5 should apply vulnerability and slow, and have longer durations for all conditions applied.
• HOLOSMITH STILL HAS NO HEAT INTERACTIONS WITH CORE WEAPONS. PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS. THERE'S 3 FRIGGING WEAPONS TOTAL, IT SHOULDN'T TAKE THIS LONG.
• Most turrets are still laughably bad. Thumper turret is closing in on being usable in PvP, but the rest are pretty atrocious in every single game mode. Engineer, as a class, was partially marketed on the basis of turrets.
• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

Gonna have to disagree with this one. Part of the reason pistol (and condi builds in general that aren't scourge/mes) are terrible right now is because of that condi rebalance patch where they extended duration but removed stacks. This is a straight-up massive nerf IF you keep the same amount of condi cleanse in the game.

IMO, part of rebalancing condi the way they did needs to be giving that alchemical tinctures treatment to other classes' cleanse traits. Either that, or they need to put a lot more cover condi on the underpowered condi builds' skills. Personally, I don't like adding more random condi as cover. It's clear they want conditions to be DoT. That can't happen if players are getting 'free' condi cleanse every time they throw an elixir or gain regen or use a burst skill or ... dodge. Seriously, break stun (!!!!!) and remove a condi on dodge.. That trait needs to go.

You spend so much effort getting close to your target and tagging them with a nice burn stack .. and then they just dodge and it's gone. That's the problem with condi builds right now. They need to smack the other classes with that Alchemical Tinctures nerf bat.

@coro.3176 said:

@Vagrant.7206 said:

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

But in the same breath as they removed alchemical tinctures, they gave us one of the most OP condi removals in the game -- anticorrosion plating. Comparatively speaking, the condi cleanse from alchemical tinctures was not nearly as overpowered. The difference is that they nerfed core engineer's ability to cleanse, but buffed scrapper and holosmith for some reason. Not that core cleansing needed any nerfing anyway.

If they had both options available, it would open up opportunities for build diversity. As it stands, inventions is practically required in any competitive game mode for anticorrosion plating. Having both condi cleanse options available would give core some breathing room, and allow engineers some more choice in where their cleanse comes from.

@coro.3176 said:IMO, part of rebalancing condi the way they did needs to be giving that alchemical tinctures treatment to other classes' cleanse traits. Either that, or they need to put a lot more cover condi on the underpowered condi builds' skills. Personally, I don't like adding more random condi as cover. It's clear they want conditions to be DoT. That can't happen if players are getting 'free' condi cleanse every time they throw an elixir or gain regen or use a burst skill or ... dodge. Seriously, break stun (!!!!!) and remove a condi on dodge.. That trait needs to go.

You spend so much effort getting close to your target and tagging them with a nice burn stack .. and then they just dodge and it's gone. That's the problem with condi builds right now. They need to smack the other classes with that Alchemical Tinctures nerf bat.

Well, that's another matter, because engineer condi doesn't exist in a vacuum. Scourge's number and quantity of cover conditions is so overwhelming that people have to design their builds to counter it. Even mirage is capable of similar condi output. If it wasn't for scourge and mirage, I'd absolutely agree with you that other classes should get the alchemical tinctures treatment. But due to both those specs utterly upending everything about conditions... then it would be unreasonable to do so.

@Vagrant.7206 said:Well, that's another matter, because engineer condi doesn't exist in a vacuum. Scourge's number and quantity of cover conditions is so overwhelming that people have to design their builds to counter it. Even mirage is capable of similar condi output. If it wasn't for scourge and mirage, I'd absolutely agree with you that other classes should get the alchemical tinctures treatment. But due to both those specs utterly upending everything about conditions... then it would be unreasonable to do so.

Scourge/Mirage are another issue altogether, and I think the general opinion is that they still need some adjustment.

.. but suppose that happens. I think there's still a fundamental power imbalance after that condi nerf patch. All of the other condi builds are still not viable: Condi Engi, Condi Rev, Condi Ranger, Condi Zerker, Condi Ele (yeah, it was a thing once), Condi Soulbeast, Burn Guard, Condi Thief, etc. Why put in all the effort and time to try and DoT an opponent that is constantly cleansing your skills when you could just play power and land your burst once to 1-combo them?

I don't see any way around that without either

• nerfing condi cleanse on all builds
• buffing condi on underperforming condi builds (but then we're right back where we started before the condi rebalance patch.. so what's the point?)

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Here's what I want to see:

• Scrapper should have a place in any game mode. Right now, as an "elite" spec, it's still remarkably underwhelming in every game mode. Its never really seen much use in PvE, and its place in PvP is quite flimsy because it is a weak tank/support . In WvW, at best it is a backliner. Spellbreaker was buffed for PvE, yet scrapper never got the same treatment.

Why is it underwhelming in every game mode? What are you actually asking for here?

• My suggestions about gyros as listed in the OP.
• Core engineer kits need some serious love. Bomb kit and grenade kit are still staples of engineer DPS, and they're still complete kitten to use. The other kits besides those two are weak in PvE, and the only kit I see in PvP on a semi-regular basis is Elixir Gun.

What do you mean by "they need love"? What makes other kits weak? What would you suggest to bring other kits into play in PvP?

• Core pistol/pistol needs to see some love. #1 should cast at its stated time, pierce targets, and count as an AoE Explosion. #2 should pierce targets and not have any spread. #3 would be ok if confusion wasn't so weak in PvE. #4 is fine. #5 should apply vulnerability and slow, and have longer durations for all conditions applied.

Totally agree. I have always been baffled as to why the pistol piercings we're ever removed.

• HOLOSMITH STILL HAS NO HEAT INTERACTIONS WITH CORE WEAPONS. PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS. THERE'S 3 FRIGGING WEAPONS TOTAL, IT SHOULDN'T TAKE THIS LONG.

Such as? Care to offer reasonable suggestions?

• Most turrets are still laughably bad. Thumper turret is closing in on being usable in PvP, but the rest are pretty atrocious in every single game mode. Engineer, as a class, was partially marketed on the basis of turrets.

It is sad, but if turrets ever have a value in PvP they will just be shouted down until they are needed into Oblivion again.

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

Umm, no. In my opinion you are absolutely wrong and this is an abysmal notion. As I see it we need an actual resolution to core engineer be issues rather than reinstitute a proven bad idea. Core engineer shouldn't need to rely on poorly functioning RnG skills to survive.

@coglin.1496 said:Why is it underwhelming in every game mode? What are you actually asking for here?What do you mean by "they need love"? What makes other kits weak? What would you suggest to bring other kits into play in PvP?

@Vagrant.7206 said;

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

I rather dislike how a significant part of all your posts are just nitpicking syntax & things other than the point sometimes.

For example asking for evidence on self-evident concepts like vanilla kits are lacking for PvP or Scrapper not being particularly desired in PvE, WvW or PvP.

Also your comments on Alchemical tinctures, equating it to poorly functioning RnG- that doesn't follow any logic I know of. I could run old Alchemical tinctures with passive Elixirs B & S, slot elixir B, slot elixir C, slot E-gun and have 0 elements of RNG while fully harnessing Alchemical Tinctures condi removal.

Now, I'm not necessarily in support of reverting the trait, but the way you attacked @Vagrant.7206 's point of view as an absolutely wrong abysmal notion is both uncalled for and a bit hypocritical..

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coglin.1496 said:Why is it underwhelming in every game mode? What are you actually asking for here?What do you mean by "they need love"? What makes other kits weak? What would you suggest to bring other kits into play in PvP?

@Vagrant.7206 said;

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

I also think it's unnecessary nitpicking and I agree completely with your assessment in this case.

Btw, anything you truly want for next balance patch?, a top 3 if you will.

@coglin.1496 said:

@"Vagrant.7206" said:Here's what I want to see:

• Scrapper should have a place in
  any
  game mode. Right now, as an "elite" spec, it's still remarkably underwhelming in every game mode. Its never really seen much use in PvE, and its place in PvP is quite flimsy because it is a weak tank/support . In WvW, at best it is a backliner. Spellbreaker was buffed for PvE, yet scrapper never got the same treatment.

• Its weapon is slow and damage is ok. The result is mediocre DPS. The hammer autoattack also makes scrapper the perfect target for the ubiquitous scourge to inflict near-permanent weakness.
• Gyros still have really odd pathing issues and strange design
• Many of the traits in the scrapper line are buggy or poorly designed.

Solutions:

• Improve the damage of the hammer, or speed of the attack for all game modes.
• Provide scrapper some kind of solution to scourge corruption. This could be short, pulsing resistance or better cleansing options.
• Reassess several traits to bring them into the current era.
• Change gyro AI (as suggested)
• For PvE, overall damage or attack speed should be upped SIGNIFICANTLY.

@coglin.1496 said:

• My suggestions about gyros as listed in the OP.
• Core engineer kits need some serious love. Bomb kit and grenade kit are still staples of engineer DPS, and they're still complete kitten to use. The other kits besides those two are weak in PvE, and the only kit I see in PvP on a semi-regular basis is Elixir Gun.

• Flamethrower kit does subpar damage in high end game modes (PvE), regardless of whether you are geared for condi or power. In PvP, its burning damage is tragically low, and the risk/reward for using it is way off. Some of its skills could stand to use the "charges" design as well (IE Vent Smoke).
• Tool kit only ever really saw use in PvP, back when condi engineer was still viable in PvP. There's a lot that could be done to improve its overall utility and damage, especially in PvE, including putting charges on skills, reducing the casting time for a few skills, or upping the damage/duration of some attacks.
• E-Gun never sees use outside of PvE, due to being a lackluster support option there. Improve its support capabilities in PvE.
• Bomb Kit is too impractical to use in PvP, mostly due to how easy it is to avoid. I don't know how to fix that, and I'm not sure it's even possible to make viable in PvP.
• Grenade kit in PvP could use some help in the flight time department. In PvE, you still need to jab your keyboard repeatedly to use it well, which is not fun gameplay, and can start to hurt your fingers if you do it too long.
• Mortar kit is underwhelming damage-wise in PvE. In PvP and WvW... it's not quite where it needs to be yet. It needs shorter flight times there.

@coglin.1496 said:

• HOLOSMITH STILL HAS NO HEAT INTERACTIONS WITH CORE WEAPONS. PLEASE IMPLEMENT THIS. THERE'S 3 FRIGGING WEAPONS TOTAL, IT SHOULDN'T TAKE THIS LONG.

Define reasonable.

Rifle --> Increased crit chance and/or extra bleeds on attacksPistol --> Increased condi durations and/or extra stacks of each condi on any attack.Shield --> Reduced cooldown times and/or greater AoE on both skills.

@coglin.1496 said:

• Please bring back alchemical tinctures. There was nothing overpowered about it, and it gave core engineer some acceptable condition cleanse capability.

Why is it abysmal? It was a viable cleanse option, regardless of your opinion on "RNG" elixirs. Throw Elixirs having random effects is another thing I'd change, but not urgently.

Changes to Holosmith:

Remove the heat mechanic. Remove/change traits involving heat mechanic. Make Photon forge a kit unlocked by taking the Holosmith line.No more heat. No exceed skills. And use of the forge no longer disables the use of other kits.

Sword:

Auto attack chain:

1)Light Strike: Applies a stack of blind to each target hit.

2)Bright Slash: In addition to regular damage applies a stack of burning per target hit.

3)Flash Cutter: In addition to regular damage applies a stack of burning per slice to each target hit.

Holo Leap: Create holographic launch pad, and leap to your foe. Leap affected by Crystal Configuration Zephyr, and pad affected by Refractive placement matrix.

Corona Burst: Strike foes and store energy. After charging trigger a detonation. Changing a limited number of conditions on friends to boons and changing boons on nearby enemies to burning.

Photon Blitz: Fire multiple piercing blasts at your target, in addition to regular damage, inflicts a stack of burning for each hit.

Holographic Shockwave: Launches foes upward, on landing they are crippled.

Utility:

Exceeds removed.

Spectrum shield: No change.

-Flash Spark: No change.

Hard Light Arena: Radius 300, Grants boons to holosmitth and allies(with reduced duration for allies)

-Prismatic Singularity: Radius 300. Explosion applies a stack of burning in addition to whatever conditions come from the explosives traitline.

Laser Disk: Duration 8 seconds. Inflicts burning instead of bleeding.

-Blade Burst: Inflicts burning instead of bleeding.

Photon Wall: Radius 240. Blocks Projectiles by default. Launchable after deployment. Inflicts burning in addition to whatever conditions come from explosive traitlines if traited.

-Partical Accelerator: Allies the bolt passes through are granted four seconds of quickness.

Traits:

Minor Adept -Photon Projector: Photon Forge kit added. No exceed skills.

Maj Ad- Light Density Amplifier: Allows twenty/thirty percent of Photon Forge skills to bleed through barriers, shields, reflection, and other absorption mechanics.

Maj Ad- Prismatic Converter: Deactivating Photon Forge Converts a conditons into a boon. Ten second cooldown. Affectws up to five friendly players including the holosmith.

Maj Ad- Solar Focusing lens: First few attacks after entering photon forge inflict burning and have an additional twenty percent chance of inflicting a critical hit.

Minor Master -Refractive Parity: Converts a percent of damage done to the enemy into healing for the holosmith. Reflects a percent of damage done by enemy to the holosmith.

Maj Mas- Crystal Configuration channel. All projectile based weapon attacks/kits/turrets used by the holosmith, including Photon forge skill one, fire an additional holo projectile which effects barriers, shields, field effects with hit limits in order to bring them down more quickly. Holo projectiles do no extra damage and are able to be dodged/evaded.

Maj Mas- Cystal configuration Ecclipse: Exploded fields grant stability and barrier for each field activated.

Maj Mas- Crystal Configuration Zephyr: Leap skills, including holo leap, jump shot, and rocket boots, remove movement impairing abilities and grant superspeed.

Minor Grandmaster- Pulse Technology: All beam attacks, including orbital strike, are split into three beam bursts with damage divided accordingly. The second and third pulses are unblockable but still avoidable via dodge/evade.

Maj Gra- Holographic Misdirection: Dodge rolling inflicts daze and blindness on nearby foes for a short duration.

Maj Gra- Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit: All gadgets, kits, and other attacks which function via the charge/Ammunition system are granted an additional one to two charges.

Maj Gra- Refractive Placement Matrix: Splits placeable objects, whether turrets, mines, or bombs, Photon walls, or hard light arenas. Split objects have a duplicate placed at random near to the Holosmith and all placeables have their effectiveness halved but their effective radii kept intact. Healing turrets heal for half of a modified turret's value, A refracted healing turret cures one condition rather than two through players caught by both fields during the overcharge will have two cleared if affected by both radii. Damage for each refraction is halved based on the modified value of the base. Conditions/boons(via experimental turrets) are applied as per the base version but at halved duration per pulse. Detonations via turret or bomb explosions are considered a single field burst per refraction exploded. Each field generated by refracted placeables is burstable.

Changes to Certain Firearms Traits:

Sanguine Array: changed to Rupturing Array: Gain might when inflicting burning or bleeding on a foe.

Hematic Focus: changed to Eruptive Focus: Increased chance to critically strike against bleeding and burning foes.

Thermal Vision: Gain expertise. Increase damage to burning and bleeding foes.

Juggernaut: Gain stability and resistance while wielding a flamethrower.

Probably not perfect, but something to consider.

@Iozeph.5617 said:Changes to Holosmith:

Remove the heat mechanic. Remove/change traits involving heat mechanic. Make Photon forge a kit unlocked by taking the Holosmith line.No more heat. No exceed skills. And use of the forge no longer disables the use of other kits.

Sword:

Auto attack chain:

1)Light Strike: Applies a stack of blind to each target hit.

2)Bright Slash: In addition to regular damage applies a stack of burning per target hit.

3)Flash Cutter: In addition to regular damage applies a stack of burning per slice to each target hit.

Holo Leap: Create holographic launch pad, and leap to your foe. Leap affected by Crystal Configuration Zephyr, and pad affected by Refractive placement matrix.

Corona Burst: Strike foes and store energy. After charging trigger a detonation. Changing a limited number of conditions on friends to boons and changing boons on nearby enemies to burning.

Photon Blitz: Fire multiple piercing blasts at your target, in addition to regular damage, inflicts a stack of burning for each hit.

Holographic Shockwave: Launches foes upward, on landing they are crippled.

Utility:

Exceeds removed.

Spectrum shield: No change.

-Flash Spark: No change.

Hard Light Arena: Radius 300, Grants boons to holosmitth and allies(with reduced duration for allies)

-Prismatic Singularity: Radius 300. Explosion applies a stack of burning in addition to whatever conditions come from the explosives traitline.

Laser Disk: Duration 8 seconds. Inflicts burning instead of bleeding.

-Blade Burst: Inflicts burning instead of bleeding.

Photon Wall: Radius 240. Blocks Projectiles by default. Launchable after deployment. Inflicts burning in addition to whatever conditions come from explosive traitlines if traited.

-Partical Accelerator: Allies the bolt passes through are granted four seconds of quickness.

Traits:

Minor Adept -Photon Projector: Photon Forge kit added. No exceed skills.

Maj Ad- Light Density Amplifier: Allows twenty/thirty percent of Photon Forge skills to bleed through barriers, shields, reflection, and other absorption mechanics.

Maj Ad- Prismatic Converter: Deactivating Photon Forge Converts a conditons into a boon. Ten second cooldown. Affectws up to five friendly players including the holosmith.

Maj Ad- Solar Focusing lens: First few attacks after entering photon forge inflict burning and have an additional twenty percent chance of inflicting a critical hit.

Minor Master -Refractive Parity: Converts a percent of damage done to the enemy into healing for the holosmith. Reflects a percent of damage done by enemy to the holosmith.

Maj Mas- Crystal Configuration channel. All projectile based weapon attacks/kits/turrets used by the holosmith, including Photon forge skill one, fire an additional holo projectile which effects barriers, shields, field effects with hit limits in order to bring them down more quickly. Holo projectiles do no extra damage and are able to be dodged/evaded.

Maj Mas- Cystal configuration Ecclipse: Exploded fields grant stability and barrier for each field activated.

Maj Mas- Crystal Configuration Zephyr: Leap skills, including holo leap, jump shot, and rocket boots, remove movement impairing abilities and grant superspeed.

Minor Grandmaster- Pulse Technology: All beam attacks, including orbital strike, are split into three beam bursts with damage divided accordingly. The second and third pulses are unblockable but still avoidable via dodge/evade.

Maj Gra- Holographic Misdirection: Dodge rolling inflicts daze and blindness on nearby foes for a short duration.

Maj Gra- Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit: All gadgets, kits, and other attacks which function via the charge/Ammunition system are granted an additional one to two charges.

Maj Gra- Refractive Placement Matrix: Splits placeable objects, whether turrets, mines, or bombs, Photon walls, or hard light arenas. Split objects have a duplicate placed at random near to the Holosmith and all placeables have their effectiveness halved but their effective radii kept intact. Healing turrets heal for half of a modified turret's value, A refracted healing turret cures one condition rather than two through players caught by both fields during the overcharge will have two cleared if affected by both radii. Damage for each refraction is halved based on the modified value of the base. Conditions/boons(via experimental turrets) are applied as per the base version but at halved duration per pulse. Detonations via turret or bomb explosions are considered a single field burst per refraction exploded. Each field generated by refracted placeables is burstable.

Changes to Certain Firearms Traits:

Sanguine Array: changed to Rupturing Array: Gain might when inflicting burning or bleeding on a foe.

Hematic Focus: changed to Eruptive Focus: Increased chance to critically strike against bleeding and burning foes.

Thermal Vision: Gain expertise. Increase damage to burning and bleeding foes.

Juggernaut: Gain stability and resistance while wielding a flamethrower.

Probably not perfect, but something to consider.

Full rework to Holosmith? Making many currently fine things busted :astonished:

Holo I hope receives few changes compared to core and Scrapper

@Chaith.8256 said:Full rework to Holosmith? Making many currently fine things busted :astonished:

Holo I hope receives few changes compared to core and Scrapper

'Currently fine' being the operative term here. Fine for you and fine for other Holosmith players(possibly), but not necessarily for the rest of the profession. So yeah, full rework for Holosmith and Scrapper in conjunction with a rebalancing of core to level the playing field.

We aren't playing in a vacuum here. There aren't going to be meaningful changes unless Holosmith and Scrapper are changed to work better as balanced accompaniments to a solid, balanced core. You know- what was initially proposed for elite spec lines- so that they shouldn't outshine the profession but instead be just another facet/flavour of it. Constantly fiddling with elites while leaving the core to rot is the development equivalent to building a house on sand. It's a wasted effort and one which after it's done will be an excuse to leave whatever other glaring problems are present shelved til the game's respective play modea are even more moribund than they are presently.

If we don't have the balance shifted then the arguments made against any meaningful changes to core will be that making core stronger risks overpowering the elites. This, in turn, is going to make it even more of a nightmare to make needed changes to the elite lines. Or it won't and we'll just continue getting more of the same. But at that point you might as well delete the rest of the profession, separate the elites into discrete, new professions branded as Scrapper and Holosmith, and then have done.

Players aren't to blame here. And this isn't an unreasonable request to make of Anet. The mess we find the Engineer in is one of their making. It's their fault for denigrating core professions, then overhyping and exalting 'elite' spec lines on launch in order to generate expansion sales. Once they've turned around and nerfed the elites what we've ended up with is a doubly weakened profession. That's what we've seen/are seeing in Engineer.

Building the new spec lines with an eye toward balance from the start should have done well toward keeping players pursuing their respective game modes. Better than than the constant hemorrhaging of players we've witnessed over the last four years. Believe it or not but players, those who don't have the time or inclination to keep chasing metas or whatever grass-is-greener profession of the moment happens to be, leave when they feel their chosen profession no longer has a fair chance. We're only just above Revenants in terms of numbers played and what players believe is the weakest profession. But that's only owing to the larger perception that Revs aren't even a complete profession. A low bar for them and not much of a silver lining for us.

It's well enough, adapting and overcoming the mechanics and environmental features brought on with newer contents. After the initial grumblings it's even fun after a fashion. It's another matter, though, to have functionality once-enjoyed stripped away, only to have to pay for the dubious privilege of 'earning' it back in another form which is awkward and never truly gives back what was lost. And here we are.

The heat mechanic was/is stupid and ill-conceived. Exceed mechanics, however flashy, stand in the way of balance or inclusive synergies with other spec lines - things you've pushed for in the past such as Photon Forge being considered a kit. That currently won;t happen due to the potential for abuses by those able to make it work, especially not when laid over a stronger core. This, because unfortunately we're balanced around 'what could be' rather than 'what is' in the majority of circumstances.

Neither Holosmith, Scrapper, or any other 'elite' professions, need baked-in negatives. The negative inherent to any spec line should be the necessity to choose it, and two other core lines, in lieu of the remaining choices. 'Hard choices,' as Anet has often said. Anything more than that is just dickwiffle for those who believe that undervaluing their time should somehow be considered a badge of honour.

@Iozeph.5617 said:

'Currently fine' being the operative term here. Fine for you and fine for other Holosmith players(possibly), but not necessarily for the rest of the profession. So yeah, full rework for Holosmith and Scrapper in conjunction with a rebalancing of core to level the playing field.

Ok, well, that's a completely different tune than just a post detailing how to buff every Holosmith mechanic into oblivion, then buff a few Firearms traits. I agree with reworking core. Reworking every single profession's specs could be argued, but what's actually going to get re-worked, probably just those specs on life support. Certainly not Holosmith.

We aren't playing in a vacuum here. There aren't going to be meaningful changes unless Holosmith and Scrapper are changed to work better as balanced accompaniments to a solid, balanced core. You know- what was initially proposed for elite spec lines- so that they shouldn't outshine the profession but instead be just another facet/flavour of it. Constantly fiddling with elites while leaving the core to rot is the development equivalent to building a house on sand. It's a wasted effort and one which after it's done will be an excuse to leave whatever other glaring problems are present shelved til the game's respective play modea are even more moribund than they are presently.

I completely agree... your post which I replied to was exactly as you describe, constant fiddling with Holosmith while leaving core Engineer to rot.

Simple logic here, if you're assuming the core Engi will increase in power and be balanced from some other suggestions which you did not include, then you need to nerf the Holosmith equally for any power gain from a better core Engineer, that's what makes your suggestions even more bizarre. You just suggested to buff nearly every Holosmith mechanic and the result would be an even more pointless core Engi.

If we don't have the balance shifted then the arguments made against any meaningful changes to core will be that making core stronger risks overpowering the elites. This, in turn, is going to make it even more of a nightmare to make needed changes to the elite lines. Or it won't and we'll just continue getting more of the same. But at that point you might as well delete the rest of the profession, separate the elites into discrete, new professions branded as Scrapper and Holosmith, and then have done.

Your suggestions to 'shift balance' are overpowering the Holosmith and seems to have nothing to do with the issues you're describing. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills :anguished:

And this, if -as you say- they are only going to touch lines that are seen as on life support, is going to be why we'll never get out from under. The elites do need to be nerfed. There's no way around it. The core of every profession needs to be the foundation for the elites. If it isn't then the problem's only going to get worse when the next elite is dropped on top of the two we have for every profession right now. It's a bitter pill to swallow, yes, but if it isn't done now, then it will never be done later on when there's yet another layer to the onion to contend with.

There has to be a strong control/identity on which all the other, newer, spec lines build which doesn't change so that as gw2 goes forward they're better able to balance Scrapper versus Holosmith versus 'insert name of new elite here' to keep all competitive Instead of balancing them against core. It doesn't and shouldn't have to be antagonistic that way. Core being competitive should be the first 'no-brainer' to Anet in every situation. And once that's cemented it shouldn't have to be touched.

I suggested the changes to Holosmith abilities to free them from the heat/exceed mechanics, which currently prevent the line from being balanced with core in mind. Why? Because the heat and exceed mechanics are some-of-the-time wildcards which the spec line is being balanced around full-time, as though it's constantly in perfect use. This is unfair. It's why, however effective initially that the Scrapper was, I felt we were given the short straw- even more so after the nerfs because I'd expected something better. Having it happen twice with Holosmith only rankled even more. Probably because Anet didn't fail to live down to my expectations the second time around.

I agree that bolstering core values while keeping exceed there would absolutely make Holosmith head and shoulders above all other damage specs. And that said, the respective suggestions numbers/etc. aren't set in stone beyond the need to remove the heat/exceed mechanic. As it is, the Holosmith has been nerfed in some areas and a removal of the exceed mechanic would nerf it significantly further beyond that in preparations for potential changes to core. Hence the suggestions for the firearms traits.

The suggestions made to the Firearms tree below that were to illustrate that you could potentially have traits from the core/ the Firearms tree in this example, to bring the Holo line back up after heat/exceed removal by enhancing its damage via the addition of fire to bleeding/explosive traits. And also the addition of the burning condition was made as fire damage in addition to or instead of bleeding just makes better thematic sense for a weapon/kit skill set based on heat and cauterising abilities. This, while at the same time making firearms useful to someone running say, Firearms, Alchemy, and Inventions, or even Scrapper, Firearms, whatever else. The changes to Firearms would make a flamethrower build more viable, a rifle build, a pistol, hammer, a tool kit etc. and yes a Photon Forge build more viable/flexible whether gearing with power or with condition damage in mind.

Would it be perfect? Nothing is. Would it be overpowered? Stronger, I would say, but still probably nowhere near as dominant as the professions on top of the heap as we speak. At the end the point of my posts was that no choice should be relegated to the useless heap. It's not about being a snowflake, or winning a participation trophy. It's about having choices for however you want to play your Engineer and not being bottom of the list for desirability to a group -whether that's for competitive play, fractals or raiding.

Beyond any of that If I'm wrong in someone's eyes, if I haven't properly illustrated the thrust of a certain message, or I'm just misunderstood then so be it. That's why we have discussions on message boards. These back and forths don't have to carry on with the gravitas of a challenge to pistols at high noon. Even if it happens to be more fun than playing my favourite profession right now. /shrug

I feel like Engineer needs a full balance pass on its kits. Our class mechanic, for which we forgo weaponswap completely, has not kept up with the power-creep in the game.

There is a very specific reason that Holosmith is our only viable build— this elite spec effectively offers us the only “kit” at 2018 power levels. If this causes concern for Holo becoming even more powerful, then bump up the kit lock-out period to 10 seconds for Holo. Our kits are really hindering Core and Scrapper IMO.

@Julius Seizure.4985 said:I feel like Engineer needs a full balance pass on its kits. Our class mechanic, for which we forgo weaponswap completely, has not kept up with the power-creep in the game.

There is a very specific reason that Holosmith is our only viable build— this elite spec effectively offers us the only “kit” at 2018 power levels. If this causes concern for Holo becoming even more powerful, then bump up the kit lock-out period to 10 seconds for Holo. Our kits are really hindering Core and Scrapper IMO.

More than just that. We only have 3 core weapons, and all of them are woefully underpowered. The only one that has seen some reasonable improvements is rifle, which is still pretty flimsy compared to most other classes with a ranged power weapon. Pistols and shield have some laughably outdated mechanics (180 range knockback on magnetic shield? LUL) and these outdated mechanics become even more pronounced when compared against new e-specs. Guardians and warriors have plenty of perfectly adequate weapons to play with when a new e-spec comes out. Engineer has 3, two of which are underwhelming.

If our design was supposed to have kits more powerful than our core weapons, then ArenaNet needs to stick to their promise and bring up our kits to current levels. But that hasn't happened.

I would imagine we have a rework in store for Engineer the same way mesmers got theirs, I am just hoping this rework doesn't cut engineer's complexity.

@Lunateric.3708 said:I would imagine we have a rework in store for Engineer the same way mesmers got theirs, I am just hoping this rework doesn't cut engineer's complexity.

I'm not so hopeful. I haven't seen any indication that they plan to do that, especially given how long core engineer has been left to languish, and the throwaway buffs they seem to toss at us to try and appease people.

1: Shueld radius on 4 increase / duration on shield 5.

2: rework on how Sword 2 works / tweak the damage a bit more

3: increase AA speed on Sword a bit , currently it’s as slow as scrapper hammer .... it’s horribly painful to even want to AA with it.

4: Nerf Invention traitline a bit, I hate the fact that WE need that traitline as a source to really clear condi. Focus it more toward Shield , Sword and maybe pistol with special traits towards. Over Shield is really great trait , I’ll like to see more traits that focus on shield or at least sword in a positive way for us to want to use it over rifle.

5: Rework Core engi , it’s horrible as hell. Everyone above me gave detail post as to why it isn’t worth playing. Rework core engi if torrents and kits are useable anymore to a degree kinda defeats the point of playing engi as well at this point....

Mainly like to see more sword and shield traitline that helps them with duration , damage increase , or more supportive ways instead of just giving out protection within its small radius. Maybe possibly give ageis , or allow us to have an Aoe dome that reflects projects. Overall buff and tweak how some of our only weapons work, maybe have weapons change overall when playing HoLo and you have XX amount of heat stored up.

This class imo is in a poor state at the moment , it’s completelt confused class on weather it’s bunker holo or static discharge dps HoLo.... and the dps isn’t all that good anymore on the class so I don’t see it being that great with current meta you need a solid amount of condi cleansing and protecting at all times before melting off easily.

@zoopop.5630 said:This class imo is in a poor state at the moment , it’s completelt confused class on weather it’s bunker holo or static discharge dps HoLo.... and the dps isn’t all that good anymore on the class so I don’t see it being that great with current meta you need a solid amount of condi cleansing and protecting at all times before melting off easily.

Honestly, holo in pvp is basically what scrapper used to be, only brought up to the current powercreep.

I have a wishlist too.

Subgoal 1, Hammer:

1. Increase the AA chain damage by 20% on all parts.
2. Extend Electro-whirls radius from 180 to 240.
3. Add functionality to Thunderclap and allow it to briefly Daze opponents going in and out of the field. This effect would be blockable and evade-able unlike eles Static Field.

Subgoal 2, Gyros:

1. Purge Gyro would remove 2 additional conditions on it's first pulse.
2. Bulwark Gyro is Invulnerable for 3 seconds upon deployment.
3. Extend the duration of Reconstruction Field by 1 second.
4. Replace Chemical Field with something more useful. A Light Field with Vigor or something.
5. Increase/improve the speed and responsiveness of Sneak Gyro. Or make it completely stationary with an increased radius.
6. Make Function Gyro a visible skill so we can actually see its cooldown.

Subgoal 3, Med Kit (Oh boy...):

1. Extend the range of skills 2-5 to 900 instead of the 600 currently.
2. Make Throw Antidote(skill 5) shatter on impact, leaving behind a 180 radius Water Field for 4 seconds. Also extend its effects to 5 targets, not 1.
3. Throw Stimulant(skill 3) now affects 5 targets. Shatters on impact, creating an Explosion(as an explosion I suppose it should get a damage proc as well..) and a Blast Finisher. 180 radius.
4. Throw Bandages(skill 2) now creates 3 items instead of 1. They spread randomly in a 180 radius. Base healing per Bandage is increased by 100%.
5. Throw Accelerant(skill 4) now counts as an Elixir, shatters on impact and affects 5 targets.
6. (F. Remove specific condi type removals, and just have the skills remove 1 condition regardless of type although I'm not sure if this is completely necessary with the other changes. Has a nice flavor and you might actually want them to remove Weakness, for example, specifically.)

Subgoal 4, Miscellaneous:

1. Add the former Alchemical Tinctures function into HGH, allowing it to remove a condition upon elixir consumption.
2. All 3 mainhand pistol skills need improvements, a bit out of my expertise so I'll not get into that. Glue Shot as well.

I made a post on some possible changes to core traits and some scrapper traits. I can provide a link for some insight.But yes, core itself needs some buffing here, maybe some nerfing there (unsure about the nerfs, some things were already nerfed hard i.g. minesweeper and aim assisted rocket). I also made some interesting (i hope) points on specific roles and how those roles should perform vs other roles etc in other posts. There is a lot of work to be done in terms of balancing the entirety of the game in all game modes.

As far as alchemical tinctures goes, I am on the fence about whether to bring it back, or just nerf the condi cleansing aspects of other professions (especially some passive ones). Then again, part of the problem is, the builds out there that have a lot of condi cleanse and can also perform well in other roles is rooted into the traits taken, and nerfing said traits too hard could have a negative impact on actual builds they were PROBABLY (keyword probably) intended for.

I think I need to make a post somewhere in the forums describing roles and what they SHOULD do, and how builds SHOULD reflect those said roles....anyone else would like to see something like this?

@Ghos.1326 said:

I think I need to make a post somewhere in the forums describing roles and what they SHOULD do, and how builds SHOULD reflect those said roles....anyone else would like to see something like this?

I would like them to be more clear on the way they want things to move forward balance wise, sort of a roadmap.

Recent change to confusion comes to mind, it killed several skills for several classes and many (myself included) don't really get the change outside PvP/WvW. So why did it have to happen?

Just a recent example on things that happened and made no sense without context.