Are humans the most populous race? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Are humans the most populous race?

Avador.8934Avador.8934 Member ✭✭✭

Just wondering... Do you think that humans are the largest race by population? Since we're not aware of the size or status of some territories belonging to major races, like Cantha or charr original homeland somewhere to the east, we can only speculate. But do you think that humans have the biggest potential to be that one?
Personally I think they may be. Though they probably have smaller population than before losing Ascalon and Orr, they still may hold the largest territory among the main races. And the bigger the territory is, the bigger is the potential to expand the population. Well, in central Tyria, they have Kryta and Ebonhawke (I'm not counting shared territories like LA), which still seems kinda inferior in territory compared to what Charr seem to hold, but outside of that, there's Elona and Crystal Desert, where many humans live, and Cantha. We don't know what's going on in Cantha, but it's very likely that the empire there still exists, and when humans there decided to get rid of the other local races, they suddenly got a pretty huge place to expand and thrive. Canthan continent is huge, even bigger than Central Tyria, and if humans conquered it all, then it's possible that there's an even bigger population than in Central Tyria and Elona together. I really wonder what's going on there...

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Comments

  • Martimus.6027Martimus.6027 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    Humans are, historically in games, the most quickly adaptive race, so it would make sense they held the most territory.

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  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    I think Charr hold more territory, humans are stated to be on the decline. If you include Elona even then Joko's rule hasn't done wonders for the population, then there's the forged attacks... Asura seem to be pretty spread out, even popping up in Elona.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2018

    @Avador.8934 said:
    there's Elona and Crystal Desert, where many humans live, and Cantha. We don't know what's going on in Cantha, but it's very likely that the empire there still exists, and when humans there decided to get rid of the other local races, they suddenly got a pretty huge place to expand and thrive. Canthan continent is huge, even bigger than Central Tyria, and if humans conquered it all, then it's possible that there's an even bigger population than in Central Tyria and Elona together. I really wonder what's going on there...

    i hope they dont play the card "theres nothing here because a big cataclismic event turned all into desert many years ago" on Cantha. theres why i have some dislike for elemental themed Elder Dragons as villains. Just a cheap way to turn large pieces of territory in some monolithic theme like purple cristals, or ice or fire.

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  • Avador.8934Avador.8934 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    I think Charr hold more territory, humans are stated to be on the decline. If you include Elona even then Joko's rule hasn't done wonders for the population, then there's the forged attacks... Asura seem to be pretty spread out, even popping up in Elona.

    That's possible, I think it's either human or Charr. The thing is that we still don't know how much land do Charr own (or owned), we've never seen but a simple mention that there's a territory where they came from, somewhere to the east. It may be as big as Ascalon, or bigger than Central Tyria, who knows... I just hope that one day we'll get more info about that place, and possibly travel there...

    And that thing about humans being on the decline, I don't think it actually means that they are slowly becoming extinct, but rather it's the state their territories are in. Cantha is completely isolated, but possibly doing well, Elona is under a dictatorship, but Joko's policy is brainwashing, not extermination, and Kryta faces problems like every other race (bandits and stuff). Sure, there was this major decline in population when Ascalon and Orr were lost, but since then, there has been no significant event like this that would direct specifically humans towards extinction. Other events, like Scarlet or dragons going crazy, influenced all major races pretty much equally.
    The sentence "humans being on the decline", how they as a race are characterized in Tyria, talks predominantly about humans in Central Tyria, since, as I said, we have no idea what's going on in Cantha. There might be a thriving human civilization that Central Tyrians, who just see stuff going on in Cental Tyria and a bit in Elona, have no clue about.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    humans are stated to be on the decline.

    I never got this "humans are on a decline" spiel.
    -In Cantha, the human Empire of the Dragon forced out all non-humans on the continent, meaning human supremacy increased in Cantha.
    -Likewise, in Elona, Palwa Joko, a undead human, rules the land, drove out the Giants into the Crystal desert, seemingly drove off the hylek as well, got several harpy clans under his thumb, and supposedly wiped out the centaurs entirely, meaning, even in Elona, human supremacy has increased since the time of Guild Wars 1.
    -In Tyria proper, Ascalon and Orr are still both destroyed, as they have been since Guild wars 1 began, and Kryta is far more developed then it was back in Guild Wars 1, with its only major problem being a centaur war that only happened because of Caudecus, and hes dead, the centaur leader is dead, and the centaurs have been driven off back into the Woodland Cascade area. So, even in Tyria, there has been a relatively zero gain or loss for human footing,

    The only part of humanity that has been on a decline is the cooperation between the various nations, humanity, as a whole, is actually still on the rise. Across the known world, and are by far the singular most dominant race on Tyria(world), with only the Charr possibly able to match them.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    declining is a vague word when applied to a species. In the case of the Jotun, the decline means that they ceased to be a species with civilizational capabilities, returning to an almost primitive state.

    In the case of humans, the question remains, declining in relation to what? economically? militarily? territory? demography?

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  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It refers to their fashion sense. Their designs are more tacky, over-adorned and amorphous every day.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This question is impossible to answer cause of Cantha. Kaineng was the biggest city known in the world and mostly occupied with humans (specially cause the Tengu have moved out). But the regime was very bad when we left it and we have no clue how the city is fairing. It is now like counting all the people in the state of New York without knowing how may people live in New York City!

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would say no for GW2. GW1 began with the start of humanity's decline. While humans still have Cantha, the other four nations had lost a good chunk of their population to charr, Awakened, centaurs, Abaddon, and risen. And sadly, Cantha's state remains unclear and unknown, but when we last saw it, it was just beginning to recover from a massively deadly plague that could have wiped out millions.

    I would say the charr are likely the most populous race, due to not only their successes with Ascalon, but that they hold lands east of the Blazeridge with no known force to oppose any eastward expansion (or southward until reaching Elona as I doubt the harpies and hekets of Dzalana could give them much pause).

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2018

    what bout the Skritts? they are everywhere, even underground... could be Quaggans too since they live in the ocean, and capable of laying multiple eggs at once

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  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    what bout the Skritts? they are everywhere, even underground... could be Quaggans too since they live in the ocean, and capable of laying multiple eggs at once

    Don't forget that Skritt seem to be explosive breeders too. They might be the most populous but they're so spread out it'd be hard to tell. Quaggans actually strike me as somewhat slow breeders given the mission with them makes it seem that they need specific conditions, they don't seem to be as adaptable.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Quaggans actually strike me as somewhat slow breeders given the mission with them makes it seem that they need specific conditions, they don't seem to be as adaptable.

    maybe because most quaggans were originally from unending ocean?

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  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    We can't forget the possibility of their being humans in a different continent. If I recall right Pereceptor Doern does hint at there being yet another human civilization out there. Though it is still speculation.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    We can't forget the possibility of their being humans in a different continent. If I recall right Pereceptor Doern does hint at there being yet another human civilization out there. Though it is still speculation.

    It would make sense for there to be some other human nation or colony out there. The maps used as a floor texture in the Priory show trade routes going to two otherwise unexplored areas, showing that there was trade to the Battle Isles from those areas

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    It would make sense for there to be some other human nation or colony out there. The maps used as a floor texture in the Priory show trade routes going to two otherwise unexplored areas, showing that there was trade to the Battle Isles from those areas

    and the fact that chantry of secrets have a globe version of the world shows humans have travelled across most of the world, and came back alive with the info

    the Zephyrites possibly have outposts around the world for resupply when distance too far from any civilisations open for trade

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  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2018

    According to gw2efficiency, they are.

    However, lorewise, humans are supposed to be on the decline and Kryta is their last real kingdom/domain. The rest is either mixed-race or under control of a non-human entity (IE Joko). The charr have also been steadily expanding outwards (which was part of the origin of problems in GW1) .

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  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    humans are stated to be on the decline.

    I never got this "humans are on a decline" spiel.
    -In Cantha, the human Empire of the Dragon forced out all non-humans on the continent, meaning human supremacy increased in Cantha.
    -Likewise, in Elona, Palwa Joko, a undead human, rules the land, drove out the Giants into the Crystal desert, seemingly drove off the hylek as well, got several harpy clans under his thumb, and supposedly wiped out the centaurs entirely, meaning, even in Elona, human supremacy has increased since the time of Guild Wars 1.
    -In Tyria proper, Ascalon and Orr are still both destroyed, as they have been since Guild wars 1 began, and Kryta is far more developed then it was back in Guild Wars 1, with its only major problem being a centaur war that only happened because of Caudecus, and hes dead, the centaur leader is dead, and the centaurs have been driven off back into the Woodland Cascade area. So, even in Tyria, there has been a relatively zero gain or loss for human footing,

    The only part of humanity that has been on a decline is the cooperation between the various nations, humanity, as a whole, is actually still on the rise. Across the known world, and are by far the singular most dominant race on Tyria(world), with only the Charr possibly able to match them.

    250 years ago there were 3 human nations on continental tyria. Today there is one. That nation is beset by both internal conflict (Cadecaus etc) and external conflict, which are centaurs. Even in the game, Queen Jennah created the Watchknights and had her jubilee celebration to prove humans were still relevant. It was one of her motivations to invite other races to the Jubilee.

    Charr have developed amazing technologies. Asuran have spread their asuran gates and waypoints all over the world. Sylvari and Norn are probably the smallest races, since most of the Asuran race was probably destroyed in Guild Wars 1 and norn have never been particularly numerous and many died in the battle with Jormag before they moved south and found Hoelbrak.

    But the game has definitely stated more than once that humans are on the decline at least in world influence. Remember Lion's Arch isn't a human city. The head of the Captain's Council is a norn. Queen Jennah basically rules Divinity's Reach, Ebonhawk in the middle of Charr lands, and some shires/farmland. Human influence in Tyria has declined.

    Of course, now that we've come to Elona, that story has changed somewhat.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    The head of the Captain's Council is a norn.

    The head of the Captain's Council is a human. In fact, that's the only hereditary seat of the Council, meaning that barring regime change, the head of the Council will always be human.

    Queen Jennah basically rules Divinity's Reach... and some shires/farmland. Human influence in Tyria has declined.

    The asura basically have a city and a few labs. The charr have a scattering of forts and ranchland. Put like that, any race has little to their name. The humans have certainly declined, but in the sense of going from the unquestioned dominant race to being co-equal with four others. They aren't any particularly worse off than those other four, especially since the cause of the worst of their problems has now been ironed out.

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  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The charr have also been steadily expanding outwards (which was part of the origin of problems in GW1) .

    Ascalon was part of Charr's land human took away from them, so they are just getting them territories back

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  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The charr have also been steadily expanding outwards (which was part of the origin of problems in GW1) .

    Ascalon was part of Charr's land human took away from them, so they are just getting them territories back

    Well, they also had the entire northern section of ascalon to play with. Charr are also the reason Orr was sunk.

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  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The charr have also been steadily expanding outwards (which was part of the origin of problems in GW1) .

    Ascalon was part of Charr's land human took away from them, so they are just getting them territories back

    Well, they also had the entire northern section of ascalon to play with. Charr are also the reason Orr was sunk.

    well... if someone took $5 from your wallet and put it in his wallet, would you not want to take his wallet along with your $5 ? :p

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  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    The head of the Captain's Council is a norn.

    The head of the Captain's Council is a human. In fact, that's the only hereditary seat of the Council, meaning that barring regime change, the head of the Council will always be human.

    Queen Jennah basically rules Divinity's Reach... and some shires/farmland. Human influence in Tyria has declined.

    The asura basically have a city and a few labs. The charr have a scattering of forts and ranchland. Put like that, any race has little to their name. The humans have certainly declined, but in the sense of going from the unquestioned dominant race to being co-equal with four others. They aren't any particularly worse off than those other four, especially since the cause of the worst of their problems has now been ironed out.

    I sit corrected. From playing the Living Story, I had drawn the conclusion that Magnus the Bloodyhanded was head of the Captain's Council. Turns out he's head of the Lion's Guard but the point stands. Lion's Arch is not a human city, since Magnus is a captain and he's norn.

    Humans have declined and I don't believe they've accomplished as much in the 250 years since Guild Wars 2 when compared to Charr and Asurans. You can argue that point if you want, but the point was made by Anet at the Jubilee that Jennah felt that the humans weren't in the forefront of anything and that's why she made the celebration as she did. You may disagree, but she at least felt it.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    250 years ago there were 3 human nations on continental tyria. Today there is one.

    Which is exactly how GW1 started. Orr sunk, Ascalon destroyed, and Kryta left standing.

    That nation is beset by both internal conflict (Cadecaus etc) and external conflict, which are centaurs.

    Well, the centaur war was started by Cadecaus, so its an "external" conflict, that only exists due to the internal one. And every race has some sort of internal conflict going on. Sons of Svanir for Norn, Inquest for Asura, Nightmare Court for Sylvari, Flame Legion for Charr, and White Mantle(Cadecaus) for humans.

    Charr have developed amazing technologies.

    As have humans, both the Watchnights, where are arguably better then most golems, as well as the airships the Pact uses.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    250 years ago there were 3 human nations on continental tyria. Today there is one.

    Which is exactly how GW1 started. Orr sunk, Ascalon destroyed, and Kryta left standing.

    That nation is beset by both internal conflict (Cadecaus etc) and external conflict, which are centaurs.

    Well, the centaur war was started by Cadecaus, so its an "external" conflict, that only exists due to the internal one. And every race has some sort of internal conflict going on. Sons of Svanir for Norn, Inquest for Asura, Nightmare Court for Sylvari, Flame Legion for Charr, and White Mantle(Cadecaus) for humans.

    Charr have developed amazing technologies.

    As have humans, both the Watchnights, where are arguably better then most golems, as well as the airships the Pact uses.

    But Watchknights are not widespread. I don't see them all over the world. I don't see them all over the human zones even. I saw them as a show of how cool are we and I've barely seen them since. I think there are a couple in Lake Doric.

    I see Asuran waypoints, portals and golems all over the place.

    Edit: Also airships were originally charr design and humans and asuran added some touches to make them better, but it's a charr thing initially.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    Decline usually means comparison to your previous self. Not to others. Humans being in decline doesn't mean that other races are suddenly more developed or demographically bigger or that they control larger territories. As a matter of fact humans are the only race in game that actually has towns and cities. Others have outposts and forward bases. Norns essentially have highway bars.

    If you combine areas of Kryta and Elona alone, humans already have the largest territory in Tyria (at least untill we see the size of Charr homelands). If you add Cantha on top of that its even larger. Its also safe to assume that area north of Divinity's Reach is probably inhabited by humans but I could be wrong about that

    But large territory doesn't mean large population. Also, demographics are not dependant on war alone. As I have said before, humans are only ones that seem to have towns and inhabited municipalities. That means demographic and economic decentralisation, plurality and development. Other races are very close to being city-states. Asura and Sylvari might even be considered such. This might show that human population is bigger than others, but it doesn't have to be necessarily.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    Humans have declined and I don't believe they've accomplished as much in the 250 years since Guild Wars 2 when compared to Charr and Asurans. You can argue that point if you want, but the point was made by Anet at the Jubilee that Jennah felt that the humans weren't in the forefront of anything and that's why she made the celebration as she did. You may disagree, but she at least felt it.

    Oh, agreed on all of that- more or less. Divinity's Reach is more spectacular than anything the Krytans had in GW1, and Ebonhawke is nothing to sneeze at either, but you're right that they haven't made the immense strides that the charr, asura, and sylvari have.

    I don't think those strides were enough for the humans to fall behind, though. It was simply enough for the others to catch up. That, I think, was Jennah's message here- it's a difficult adjustment, going from the clear favourites to a neck-and-neck competition, but the humans are still holding their own despite that.

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  • I think the introduction for a new Human character says something like 'My people once ruled the world. Now we're barely hanging on.'

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Which doesn't necessarily imply greatest population which is the question in the OP. When the British Empire controlled African nations, the african population was probably higher. They were simply outgunned.

  • Merlus.1843Merlus.1843 Member
    edited April 22, 2018

    I've noticed that both Palawa Joko and Shiro are unusually tall for humans. Were they really human?
    Someplace, someone told me within the story, that Asura lived once underground (maybe there are more of them living there).
    Are Norn similar to great humans? ... I think they could be compatible to humans, but I would like to know which races are also compatible in a relationship
    ... and the results ^^ Charsura, Norr, Husura ? :# :p
    (except skritt, centaur, quaggan and hylek)

    edit: I have a picture in mind, what happen, if a norn and a quaggan would have a baby .. Gantu of Lilo & Stitch =)

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Merlus.1843 said:
    I've noticed that both Palawa Joko and Shiro are unusually tall for humans. Were they really human?
    Someplace, someone told me within the story, that Asura lived once underground (maybe there are more of them living there).
    Are Norn similar to great humans? ... I think they could be compatible to humans, but I would like to know which races are also compatible in a relationship
    ... and the results ^^ Charsura, Norr, Husura ? :# :p
    (except skritt, centaur, quaggan and hylek)

    edit: I have a picture in mind, what happen, if a norn and a quaggan would have a baby .. Gantu of Lilo & Stitch =)

    Norns are not merely “great humans” at all, but deep down very different. It would be far more likely that they could reproduce with Jotun than humans given their implied shared origin.

    Plus, y’know, humans are not even biologically native to the friggin planet being literal aliens brought there by their gods so...

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I believe Norn are the most populous race, given their bravado, they would seem like a race of people that would have lots of children, to carry on the legacy, show their marital prowess, and because no doubt they die a lot to their need to prove their self worth in combat and glory. As such they would have a very high reproduction rate among their culture, which would surface in both times of hostility and peace, which would build a huge population very fast, Not to mention their fearlessness to go anywhere, they are no doubt thriving in areas that many others would fear to even tread.

    Charr would be next, given their desire to wage War, as a necessity to survival, they also would be a a very high reproduction race, which would carry on in both times of peace and war, and given their kinship towards Norn, no doubt both are vastly fearless in their willingness to go anywhere and do anything, so they also would be anywhere and everywhere.

    Then Humans, would be next. Because.. well Humans.

    With Asura being next in line, given their willingness to kill each other in the name of "Science" and often hold life in contempt, it is no doubt they have at least to some extent, a self regulated population.

    and Sylvari on the bottom, given they are all born of the Pale Tree.

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  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    @Merlus.1843 said:
    [...] I think they could be compatible to humans, but I would like to know which races are also compatible in a relationship.

    Well, according to the writers, none of the major races are biologically compatible with one another. Biologically speaking, the races are proper species. That means aside from some of the nastiest concievable Inquest research the chances of encountering a half human hybrid are 0%.
    Sylvari are even more specialized, considering they cannot procreate like humans, instead they are grown in pods, as stated by Cydwenn

    As to how populous the different races are, here are my estimates based on the known political entities.

    Humans:
    Kingdom of Kryta
    Depending on the surface area and arable land, the Kingdom of Kryta can hold a pretty large population. The historical kingdom of France was able to sustain 20,000,000 inhabitants. England (1600), on the other hand had a population of four million inhabitants. The difference can be explained by the climate, surface area, availability and quality of the arable land. Looking at a Tyrian globe, Kryta seems to be fairly large, so I wouldn't be surprised if its population was closer to the twenty million mark than the four million.

    Duchy of Ebonhawke
    Besieged by the Charr for hundreds of years, the population is likely centered around the city itself. To be able to defend itself, it needs to have a sizeable population to begin with, considering that this is what is left of Ascalon. I'd guess the city's population may be comparable to Munich, or another fairly large city again taking 1600 AD on earth to be roughly equivalent to 1330 AE on Tyria, that is roughly 20,000 people.

    Kingdom of Elona
    The Kingdom of Elona consists of the three states of Vabbi, Istan and Kourna. All of these have arid climate. The Elon river seems to be the main source of arable land. The climate is pretty amazing, though, as the combination of sun soil and water may allow multiple harvests per year. Egypt may be a close match, so we can assume a population between four and eight million.

    Empire of Cantha
    We have no contact to Cantha, but the last time we had, there was a sprawling megacity, good arable land and a government that cleansed the land from both disease and nonhuman intelligent lifeforms. Considering the source material, Ming China may be a good match. That's somewhere between 200,000,000 and 300,000,000 people. This may put humans as the most populous race, with a total population between 220,000,000 (low) and 330,000,000 (high).

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You also have to take lifespan into account. In general, life forms with longer lifespans tend to have much lower birth rates, and of course not reach the reproductive stage of their lives until much later.

    I dunno how long a Charr or Asura (Sylvari are kinda exempt due to not reproducing) live in comparison to humans, but given their magical/mythological nature I would assume that Norns live for far longer than humans.

    As such, even if they are probably widespread around Tyria, they might be a lot less populous than the other races.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    but given their magical/mythological nature I would assume that Norns live for far longer than humans.

    Warmaster Forgal claims to have seen a risen scout of Zhaitan just before Port Stalwart fell, which happened in 1229 AE, which is 96 years before the game began, and he was apparently old enough to not be a kid when it happened, making him well over 100 by the time GW2 begins.

    And while he was obviously old, he didn't appear to be elderly in the sense that was just a few years from dying or w/e.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    but given their magical/mythological nature I would assume that Norns live for far longer than humans.

    Warmaster Forgal claims to have seen a risen scout of Zhaitan just before Port Stalwart fell, which happened in 1229 AE, which is 96 years before the game began, and he was apparently old enough to not be a kid when it happened, making him well over 100 by the time GW2 begins.

    And while he was obviously old, he didn't appear to be elderly in the sense that was just a few years from dying or w/e.

    Aye, he was still very much active as a Warmaster and him seeking to kill himself in the end was (as I recall, many years since my main did his personal story!) due to a nihilistic lack of purpose and a very Norn-y fear of being forgotten due to not forging a memorable Legend. Not that he was “getting too old for this kitten”.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In terms of population in comparison to the charr (which are really the only competition here):

    The charr have a large and undefined territory off-map, but they probably aren't able to maintain the population from that territory that humans would. Their size means they're going to need more food to begin with - for the sake of argument, let's say that twice the size means twice as much food. Worse, the fact that they're mostly carnivorous significantly expands the amount of territory needed to sustain a given population: while it varies with choice of food animal, I think the rule of thumb is that a carnivorous or mostly-carnivorous animal requires about ten times as much territory as a herbivorous or omnivorous animal of similar size in order to sustain itself. So it'd probably take about twenty times the territory for the charr to maintain the same population as humans.

    Once you've included Elona, Cantha, and any other human realms there may be elsewhere in the world, I'd be surprised if the charr have that much territory.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    -In Tyria proper, Ascalon and Orr are still both destroyed, as they have been since Guild wars 1 began, and Kryta is far more developed then it was back in Guild Wars 1, with its only major problem being a centaur war that only happened because of Caudecus, and hes dead, the centaur leader is dead, and the centaurs have been driven off back into the Woodland Cascade area. So, even in Tyria, there has been a relatively zero gain or loss for human footing,

    Kryta's lost about half of its territory since GW1, mostly in the south and west, in exchange for possibly having expanded northwards somewhat. Furthermore, the lost territories included some of the formerly most populated, including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself. Shaemoor and the Ascalon Settlement are probably the largest GW1 Krytan settlements that remain in Krytan hands. Even in more recent times, they've lost parts of Kessex. They've advanced in technology and may be in a position to rebound somewhat, but Kryta has declined since GW1, mostly due to Zhaitan - given that Garrenhoff has been said to be Krytan only on maps in Divinity's Reach, Kryta has basically lost all access to the Sea of Sorrows.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    , including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself.

    I don't know where you got the idea that D'Alessio Seaboard is claimed by the Dominion of Winds, but that it patently false, are you confused with Sanctum Cay?

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    , including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself.

    I don't know where you got the idea that D'Alessio Seaboard is claimed by the Dominion of Winds, but that it patently false, are you confused with Sanctum Cay?

    My guess would be that he is talking about the Tengu gate in the southwest corner of Lion's arch leading to what was D'Alessio Seaboard, which means that at least some of the area has been claimed by the dominion.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    My guess would be that he is talking about the Tengu gate in the southwest corner of Lion's arch leading to what was D'Alessio Seaboard, which means that at least some of the area has been claimed by the dominion.

    It always looked more like it lead to the coast where they presumably have some sort of dock and a boat to take them back to the Dominion of Winds.

    Look at the old WoodenPotatos video of the unused Seaboard area also seems to confirm that, or something close, as there is a Tengu wall not far behind where the wall in LA is, creating a small enclave there separate from the rest of the seaboard area

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Narcemus.1348 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    , including d'Alessio Seaboard (apparently now claimed by the Dominion of Winds) and Riverside Province (part of what is now Caledon) in addition to Lion's Arch itself.

    I don't know where you got the idea that D'Alessio Seaboard is claimed by the Dominion of Winds, but that it patently false, are you confused with Sanctum Cay?

    My guess would be that he is talking about the Tengu gate in the southwest corner of Lion's arch leading to what was D'Alessio Seaboard, which means that at least some of the area has been claimed by the dominion.

    Yes, this. You'll note that I said "apparently", as I don't believe it's been confirmed - however, they certainly have claimed the gate leading to the Seaboard from Lion's Arch. There is also, incidentally, little evidence of Krytan forces holding anything closer to the Seaboard than Nebo Terrace or Uzolan's Estate.

    The presence of the Tenguwall along the southern border of Kessex is additional evidence of the DoW having claimed more than Sanctum Cay, although that section of mainland Tengu territory doesn't connect to the Seaboard.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2018

    @crepuscular.9047 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    The charr have also been steadily expanding outwards (which was part of the origin of problems in GW1) .

    Ascalon was part of Charr's land human took away from them, so they are just getting them territories back

    They originally took it from someone else though (likely dwarves and grawl - former based on the dwarven town/city depicted in Edge of Destiny and this guy, the latter being mentioned in this), they didn't originate in Ascalon, or the "Charr Homelands" (GW1)/"Blood Legion Homelands" (GW2) marked section of the world map, but instead originated east of the Blazeridge Mountains. They only held what would become Ascalon for less than a generation before humans conquered it, in fact, based on the notion that there seems to have only been one Khan-Ur. That's less than a century.

    Honestly, charr held no proper claim to Ascalon's lands prior to their conquering of it in 1090 AE.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Well, the centaur war was started by Cadecaus, so its an "external" conflict, that only exists due to the internal one.

    What? No it wasn't. Caudecus assisted the centaurs and incited more hostilities, but he didn't start them. The Centaur War began in 300 AE. It had died down a bit around GW1's time (likely due to the undead from Orr, and then the Modniir's decline), but Ulgoth had resparked the conflict 50 years ago in revenge for the GW1 events.

    Caudecus isn't 1,000 years old. Nor did he begin the conflicts anew 50 years ago. He just took advantage of Ulgoth's desires to wage war.

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    Edit: Also airships were originally charr design and humans and asuran added some touches to make them better, but it's a charr thing initially.

    We were never told who made the originals, if any singular race, technically, just that it was a combination of charr, human, and asuran design (with norn and sylvari adding in for the design of the flag ship variant). You might be thinking of the choppers, of which the prototypes are indeed of charr origins.

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    You also have to take lifespan into account. In general, life forms with longer lifespans tend to have much lower birth rates, and of course not reach the reproductive stage of their lives until much later.

    I dunno how long a Charr or Asura (Sylvari are kinda exempt due to not reproducing) live in comparison to humans, but given their magical/mythological nature I would assume that Norns live for far longer than humans.

    As such, even if they are probably widespread around Tyria, they might be a lot less populous than the other races.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Warmaster Forgal claims to have seen a risen scout of Zhaitan just before Port Stalwart fell, which happened in 1229 AE, which is 96 years before the game began, and he was apparently old enough to not be a kid when it happened, making him well over 100 by the time GW2 begins.

    And while he was obviously old, he didn't appear to be elderly in the sense that was just a few years from dying or w/e.

    From what we were told by devs:

    • Norn who live past 120 exist, and they're still very physically fit while being the elders of the race, but few do live that long due to their lifestyles.
    • Charr mature at the same rate as humans. Similar to norn, old charr are very uncommon due to their lifestyle. I do recall a mention of a dialogue about a very old charr of 90 though.
    • Asura live "5-10% longer" than humans, with exceptional lifespans at 120.
    • This would place humans (and charr) typically being 90-100 at natural lifespans.

    So, pending sylvari, norn are the longest living of the playable races, followed by asura, then due to common lifestyles, humans then charr.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    We were never told who made the originals, if any singular race, technically, just that it was a combination of charr, human, and asuran design (with norn and sylvari adding in for the design of the flag ship variant). You might be thinking of the choppers, of which the prototypes are indeed of charr origins.

    Well the wiki says otherwise, if you look up airship.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Airship

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    We were never told who made the originals, if any singular race, technically, just that it was a combination of charr, human, and asuran design (with norn and sylvari adding in for the design of the flag ship variant). You might be thinking of the choppers, of which the prototypes are indeed of charr origins.

    Well the wiki says otherwise, if you look up airship.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Airship

    The anyone-can-edit nature of wikis makes them incredibly unreliable when not backed up by citations - it's easy for people to put in something that they think is true but which isn't actually confirmed, deliberately or otherwise. If there isn't an in-game source or otherwise official source to refer to, don't trust it.

    The ingame source - Trahearne specifically - says that airships were a combination of charr, asura, and human technologies, and we've seen no evidence that I know of that the charr even had prototypes before the Pact formed. If anything, the use of balloons by Kryta (even if season 1 is after the fact), and the fact that Charr experiments in flight in Ascalon were all heavier-than-air models, suggests that the idea of lighter-than-air flight might have originated with humans, with charr and asura providing the mechanical and technomagical components. But unless there's something we've missed, we don't know where the original idea came from.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What? No it wasn't. Caudecus assisted the centaurs and incited more hostilities, but he didn't start them. The Centaur War began in 300 AE. It had died down a bit around GW1's time (likely due to the undead from Orr, and then the Modniir's decline), but Ulgoth had resparked the conflict 50 years ago in revenge for the GW1 events.

    The Centaur War as it exists today is because Caudecus ordered Captain Tervelan to burn Ulhoth's family's camp to the ground, killing them in the process, which incited them into their current round of hostilities. I was speaking of the current war, not the ones of the past, or the overall conflict.

    Had Caudecus not ordered Tervelan to do so, everything we see in-game wouldn't have happened, the Centaurs would still be on the fringes like they were previously.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    We were never told who made the originals, if any singular race, technically, just that it was a combination of charr, human, and asuran design (with norn and sylvari adding in for the design of the flag ship variant). You might be thinking of the choppers, of which the prototypes are indeed of charr origins.

    Well the wiki says otherwise, if you look up airship.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Airship

    The anyone-can-edit nature of wikis makes them incredibly unreliable when not backed up by citations - it's easy for people to put in something that they think is true but which isn't actually confirmed, deliberately or otherwise. If there isn't an in-game source or otherwise official source to refer to, don't trust it.

    The ingame source - Trahearne specifically - says that airships were a combination of charr, asura, and human technologies, and we've seen no evidence that I know of that the charr even had prototypes before the Pact formed. If anything, the use of balloons by Kryta (even if season 1 is after the fact), and the fact that Charr experiments in flight in Ascalon were all heavier-than-air models, suggests that the idea of lighter-than-air flight might have originated with humans, with charr and asura providing the mechanical and technomagical components. But unless there's something we've missed, we don't know where the original idea came from.

    It's nice that you remember 1 line from the living story but this isn't the only place in the wiki that backs up what I'm saying. I'm not sure where this all comes from but the wiki is right far more than it's wrong.

    From this page

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charr

    Relevant passage

    "The charr are highly industrious, their forging superior to even the dwarves, and are renowned and feared for their military technology – weapon development, war machines and mass production, having pioneered the creation of airships and submarines."

    Charr are the most warlike of the races and as such it's more likely to me anyway that they were the first to create stuff like submarines and airships. Not sure where that original info comes from but that doesn't mean it's not accurate.
    '
    Edit: This from an interview with Jeff Grubb further supports humans were at least less likely to come up with it:

    Q: What are the major import and export items of each race?
    Jeff Grubb: All the major races are self-sufficient, though some items are more common and of a higher quality. Norn bring in pelts from the Shiverpeaks. The charr excel at clockwork technology, while the asura do best at magical devices. The sylvari have, pardon the pun, a green thumb and are strong in plant-based exports. Humans have both the best organized agricultural system and, more importantly, have the historical scholarly knowledge that other races lack. Lion’s Arch, where the races come together, is best known for salvage and uncovering ancient artifacts of the past.

    Link to whole interview: http://archive.li/wp6OO#selection-459.0-463.583

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    Using an uncited passage in the wiki to back up using uncited passages in the wiki is a bit of circular reasoning, don't you think?

    Here's what we're told from primary sources:

    Trahearne: These airships are the Pact's crowning achievement: a combination of asura, charr, and human technology.
    Trahearne: The Pact developed these airships so that we might fight Zhaitan from every possible angle: land, sea, and now air.

    From the "What the Eye Beholds" instance.

    That's what we've got. There's nothing to indicate that the concept of lighter-than-air airships (as opposed to the Zephyrite crystal-powered airships) had even been conceived until the Pact brought engineers of those three races together, let alone that the charr came up with the idea first.

    The wikis are full of speculation and assumptions being dressed up as fact. Without further evidence from better sources (and the interview you cite doesn't count, since it's only speaking in generalities: yes, we know that the charr are best at nonmagical technology in general, but that doesn't mean they came up with everything), I'm inclined to think that the passages from the wiki you're citing to back up your position are exactly that.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    What? No it wasn't. Caudecus assisted the centaurs and incited more hostilities, but he didn't start them. The Centaur War began in 300 AE. It had died down a bit around GW1's time (likely due to the undead from Orr, and then the Modniir's decline), but Ulgoth had resparked the conflict 50 years ago in revenge for the GW1 events.

    The Centaur War as it exists today is because Caudecus ordered Captain Tervelan to burn Ulhoth's family's camp to the ground, killing them in the process, which incited them into their current round of hostilities. I was speaking of the current war, not the ones of the past, or the overall conflict.

    Had Caudecus not ordered Tervelan to do so, everything we see in-game wouldn't have happened, the Centaurs would still be on the fringes like they were previously.

    That's pretty kitten assumptuous. Ulgoth started the wars well before Ulgoth's family was killed. Given the age of Deborah, it couldn't have been more than 5-10 years ago that the company was captured, and Falcon Company's "next patrol" was left in the same mission that killed Ulogth's family.

    Caudecus made it worse for Kryta, but the war would have been going on regardless, and aside from specific events (fall of Falcon Company, some slavery in Harathi Hinterlands, and the assault on Shaemoor) we have no indication of how the war would have fared without, or where it was before, Caudecus' involvements. For example, there is zero hint of involvement of bandits in Gendarran Fields, indicating that the situation there would be unchanged had Caudecus not worsened things.

    Caudecus was not the end all be all of humanity's problems that you keep making him out to be. He took advantage of pre-existing problems and made them worse.

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    We were never told who made the originals, if any singular race, technically, just that it was a combination of charr, human, and asuran design (with norn and sylvari adding in for the design of the flag ship variant). You might be thinking of the choppers, of which the prototypes are indeed of charr origins.

    Well the wiki says otherwise, if you look up airship.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Airship

    The anyone-can-edit nature of wikis makes them incredibly unreliable when not backed up by citations - it's easy for people to put in something that they think is true but which isn't actually confirmed, deliberately or otherwise. If there isn't an in-game source or otherwise official source to refer to, don't trust it.

    The ingame source - Trahearne specifically - says that airships were a combination of charr, asura, and human technologies, and we've seen no evidence that I know of that the charr even had prototypes before the Pact formed. If anything, the use of balloons by Kryta (even if season 1 is after the fact), and the fact that Charr experiments in flight in Ascalon were all heavier-than-air models, suggests that the idea of lighter-than-air flight might have originated with humans, with charr and asura providing the mechanical and technomagical components. But unless there's something we've missed, we don't know where the original idea came from.

    It's nice that you remember 1 line from the living story but this isn't the only place in the wiki that backs up what I'm saying. I'm not sure where this all comes from but the wiki is right far more than it's wrong.

    I dug a bit, and found it in a bit of irony that I was the one who added that charr made the airships.

    But like Drax, the only line I can recall in the game about airship's origins would be that line during What the Eye Beholds. That interview you quoted, while a good source (and likely the source I was thinking of when rewriting that though it's strange I didn't cite it), is also not solid as there was a lot changed in development and Bobby Stein, the lead writer, had personally stated that comments made in interviews are subject to be changed.

    The only "charr-original airship" we see is the prototype helicopter in Fields of Ruins. It's possible that is where the idea came from and humans and asura came in and changed things completely, but it's not a proven thing.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    “Blimps” in a setting where helicopters exist have always struck me as odd. Not to change the topic or anything, but yeah. Always seemed weird. Just like how there are bows and firearms yet no crossbows (the evolutionary mid-step).

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oglaf.1074 said:
    “Blimps” in a setting where helicopters exist have always struck me as odd. Not to change the topic or anything, but yeah. Always seemed weird. Just like how there are bows and firearms yet no crossbows (the evolutionary mid-step).

    Not so much, actually. There are people who still make them today and, furthermore, advocate them as a 'middle ground' between ships and cargo aeroplanes as a means of transport (cheaper per tonne than shipping by aeroplane, faster than ships).

    Heck, I think they've even been reconsidered for military applications, albeit never taken up (probably because, honestly, they are too vulnerable in a modern battlespace).

    In the Tyrian context - while we don't know what powers a charrcopter, it's possible that airships are used for a similar reason that blimps occasionally get reconsidered in the real world: because they're a lot cheaper to keep in the air for the cargo capacity they have. Charrcopters seem to only be able to fly for relatively short periods at a time - airships seem to be the only aircraft available to Tyrians capable of travelling long distances or to remain 'on station' for an extended period.

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