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P/P thief needs rework not because it's good...


bladezero.9470

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...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode. I personally don't find it to be overpowered at all. Good teams will shut it down 100% of the time. I actually rejoice when I see a P/P instead of an actual good thief build like S/D.

The problem is that new players can play P/P and think they are doing well (thereby not learning how to PvP) and new players who die to P/P get frustrated and stand no chance because they can't learn to play together and utilize the appropriate defenses.

It's just unhealthy for the game mode. I would even say more so than scourge ever was. Anyway, it doesn't really affect me too much since I don't really enjoy playing at the lower level and I'm mostly interested in tournaments, but it is a shame that Ranked players are getting a very rough deal this season (especially players stuck in Silver and Gold).

TL;DR P/P too E-Z needs nerf! :-P

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@"Ubi.4136" said:The problem with thief, and all of the builds, is initiative. Until they remove initiative and give thief skills proper cooldowns, their are not going to be able to do any real balance, not for the class, or for the game.

I do not agree.

"Initiative

To power their attacks, thieves rely on a resource called initiative, which regenerates over time. Weapon skills cost initiative points, but they have no recharge time, so thieves can use them back-to-back. This allows thieves to stay flexible and responsive in combat and unleash a rapid flurry of powerful attacks. "

Source

Thieves are supposed to be hard to hit. They are supposed to hit hard (a rework of GW1 assassins).

They are in the lowest health pool group without the same kinds of integrated defenses as the other two in the same category.

A removal of initiative and introduction of cooldown would require a huge rework of all their weapons to have more active defense or dramatically increased damage.

The role of the thief is to swoop in as fast as possible and do massive damage and swoop out.

Unfortunately the community has designated them a +1 speedy punching bag. Any issues found to breach these community imposed barriers will result in a cry for nerfs.

Why do people believe that anyone other than a thief should have the highest single target dps? They are the ~~rogue ~~ assassin of the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin_(character_class) (copy and paste the link it is not working correctly otherwise)

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@Daishi.6027 said:

@"bladezero.9470" said:...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode.

I don't like spouting "get good" but these are not the people we should be balancing around.

Fair enough, but my point is that the P/P thief is irrelevant at higher tiers of play and it is only detrimental to lower tiers of play. That being said, a "fix" might harm other more viable builds and so I agree the balance team needs to take care in looking at it.

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@Ubi.4136 said:The problem with thief, and all of the builds, is initiative. Until they remove initiative and give thief skills proper cooldowns, their are not going to be able to do any real balance, not for the class, or for the game.

I like the idea of initiative, but I agree it is the source of the complaints. I don’t personally feel the complaints are justified because they almost always fail to acknowledge the drawbacks of initiative.

People don’t like that thieves can use weapon skills back to back. Doesn’t matter what it is. They think it means thieves don’t have any cooldowns when in fact thy have some of the highest effective cooldown. They choose which powers have cooldowns just like other classes, but in a indirect way.

If thieves were to get normal cooldowns it would require massive rework. I’m inclined to believe that many abilities would likely get damage boost because they are balanced in part with the knowledge that the thief is prioritizing the more powerful abilities. With normal cooldowns they would have to take into consideration that thieves can’t do that anymore and adjust the power of all abilities accordingly. It would also mean that they wouldn’t be limited to a single pool of resources between both weapons.

So instead of using one ability multiple times, they would just switch between the rebalanced abilities that are the most powerful. In rebalancing I doubt they would decrease the overall dps. And the burst would likely remain similar.

So it wouldn’t really change much. People would still complain about being bursted. And it would require intensive resources to rework. I highly doubt it will happen. It is cheaper for Anet for people to learn how to counter pistol pistol, which is quite easy with a little experience.

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@bladezero.9470 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode.

I don't like spouting "get good" but these are not the people we should be balancing around.

Fair enough, but my point is that the P/P thief is irrelevant at higher tiers of play and it is only detrimental to lower tiers of play. That being said, a "fix" might harm other more viable builds and so I agree the balance team needs to take care in looking at it.

So...? The worry here is people will troll with it in lower tiers because players are bad? If stronger players and smirfing to clown on beginners it doesn't matter what they run.

It is very irrelevant, but I think it's healthier to let players learn to overcome it and get better, if people quit because of it how will they tolerate actually good builds?There is no reason to cater to them in this manner. Something that already lacks power in mid to high end shouldn't just be deleted when it's already irrelevant, that just makes it harder to balance later into relevance. Which I'm kind of hoping we can get more builds and playstyles on more classes viable.

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@Daishi.6027 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode.

I don't like spouting "get good" but these are not the people we should be balancing around.

Fair enough, but my point is that the P/P thief is irrelevant at higher tiers of play and it is only detrimental to lower tiers of play. That being said, a "fix" might harm other more viable builds and so I agree the balance team needs to take care in looking at it.

So...? The worry here is people will troll with it in lower tiers because players are bad? If stronger players and smirfing to clown on beginners it doesn't matter what they run.

It is very irrelevant, but I think it's healthier to let players learn to overcome it and get better, if people quit because of it how will they tolerate actually good builds?There is no reason to cater to them in this manner. Something that already lacks power in mid to high end shouldn't just be deleted when it's already irrelevant, that just makes it harder to balance later into relevance. Which I'm kind of hoping we can get more builds and playstyles on more classes viable.

You're missing my point. I'm arguing that other weak players are using it against weak players, not that strong players are using it. I'm just concerned that there are tiny few competitive players left in GW2 and how are we going to get more if the new ppl are running P/P?

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@bladezero.9470 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode.

I don't like spouting "get good" but these are not the people we should be balancing around.

Fair enough, but my point is that the P/P thief is irrelevant at higher tiers of play and it is only detrimental to lower tiers of play. That being said, a "fix" might harm other more viable builds and so I agree the balance team needs to take care in looking at it.

So...? The worry here is people will troll with it in lower tiers because players are bad? If stronger players and smirfing to clown on beginners it doesn't matter what they run.

It is very irrelevant, but I think it's healthier to let players learn to overcome it and get better, if people quit because of it how will they tolerate actually good builds?There is no reason to cater to them in this manner. Something that already lacks power in mid to high end shouldn't just be deleted when it's already irrelevant, that just makes it harder to balance later into relevance. Which I'm kind of hoping we can get more builds and playstyles on more classes viable.

You're missing my point. I'm arguing that other weak players are using it against weak players, not that strong players are using it. I'm just concerned that there are tiny few competitive players left in GW2 and how are we going to get more if the new ppl are running P/P?

Because again our actually good builds are much stronger than p/p.If weak players are killing weak players and winning because of it, they will get kicked to the higher tiers and then learn their tactics don't work and be sent back down if they refuse to change.If weak players go against this and leave, they have proven their inability to adapt and will struggle against actually good builds.

We have a neat little natural selection filter here, under the presumption those p/p players refuse to change when failing to make it into higher tiers.Which I doubt is the case for anyone who actually wants to get better.

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I'm ok with a pistols rework ONLY with the understanding that the changes not be nerfs. You correctly identified this so I am ok with it sort of.

What I don't see a point to is the people saying to give ammo to p/p 3. This is exactly the same way it already works now. Just because its called ammo doesn't mean the system functions different fundamentally from initiative.

Think about it. Ammo recharges at a set rate, say 10s per charge. Initiative recharges at roughly 6 per 10 seconds, and it costs 5 to use unload. If it costed 6 to use unload it would be functionally identical to having a 10s ammo recharge (Or vice versa if the ammo recharge time was matched to 5 initiative).

I find it very interesting that people are asking for it to be changed to ammo since that won't actually change anything.

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I don't think tweaking Unload to suits beginner's whim will render any benefit in long-term to the game.The crux of the problem was the ancient nemesis aka Beginners vs Veteran Players, awful matchups.To the new players :"Oh, you just started playing the game huh? Then please put in some effort and L E A R N T O P L A Y~~~"

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People don't like P/P or Deadeye because it actually gives the majority of Thief players the chance to be lethal against the majority of other players.

People also complain about FS/LS on S/D Thieves because it's spammy... though they are the hardest hitting, most efficient, most effective skills on that set.People even complain about Backstab that can only be done once every 4+ seconds.

It seems that people will complain against anything the Thief can do that actually makes it a threat in a 1v1.If a Thief had to perform a combo of pressing 3-2-4-5-1, and it hit like Backstab or Unload, people would complain about it also.

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@Kageseigi.2150 said:People don't like P/P or Deadeye because it actually gives the majority of Thief players the chance to be lethal against the majority of other players.

People also complain about FS/LS on S/D Thieves because it's spammy... though they are the hardest hitting, most efficient, most effective skills on that set.People even complain about Backstab that can only be done once every 4+ seconds.

It seems that people will complain against anything the Thief can do that actually makes it a threat in a 1v1.If a Thief had to perform a combo of pressing 3-2-4-5-1, and it hit like Backstab or Unload, people would complain about it also.

People are not compaining because thieves have 1v1 potential. They are complaining because the gameplay is braindead easy. Spamming one skill until initiative runs out is not engaging gameplay.

The reason people are compaining about FS / LS is because it's an (or at least was) an overloaded skill. Huge damage, evade frames, unblockable and boonrip. It had nothing to do with thieves 1v1 potential.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

People are not compaining because thieves have 1v1 potential. They are complaining because the gameplay is braindead easy. Spamming one skill until initiative runs out is not engaging gameplay.

The reason people are compaining about FS / LS is because it's an (or at least was) an overloaded skill. Huge damage, evade frames, unblockable and boonrip. It had nothing to do with thieves 1v1 potential.

The issue is that Anet made it that way. Unload is literally the only skill worth using other than the occasional Headshot.Yes, FS/LS is/was overloaded. That's how Anet made it. Nothing else could compare. But at least S/D 2 and 5 are worth using when needed.But neither P/P or S/D 3-spam are anything like D/x 2-spam. Heartseeker spam is absolutely foolish unless the target is low on health. Shadow Shot is much more effective.

As for FS, evades are needed because the Thief is fragile. CnD is what should really have the unblockable trait instead... just for the Stealth access.

But really, if these skills didn't make the Thief more lethal, then there wouldn't be such hatred. None of these can compare with the Mesmer's Moa skill, though.

As for braindead gameplay, that's generalizing way too much. It may be "braindead" combat, but not gameplay. In Conquest, combat is a Thief's secondary responsibility. What Unload does is to allow the Thief to perform its primary responsibility much easier. It can engage on the move without having to enter into a suicidal melee (AoE-spam). It can focus more on rotating from point to point and fight to fight. That's where the Thief's true gameplay is. I wish it were not the case, but it is... at least in Conquest.

I don't even like playing P/P. I prefer glass D/P. But the Dagger and Sword got their lethality nerfed too much, and ever since HoT, everyone's defenses and damage output skyrocketed. So I'm currently playing Core P/P in nearly the exact manner I played D/P and S/D. Same utilities and nearly the same traits. For me, the gameplay is the same, except now, I counter Scourges instead of them countering me. It's all about rotating around the map... that's what it's always about for a Thief. It would be the same if I were only allowed a Shortbow... I'd just have to avoid combat more than I already do.

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@"bladezero.9470" said:...but because it kills noobs before they have a chance to learn the game mode. I personally don't find it to be overpowered at all. Good teams will shut it down 100% of the time. I actually rejoice when I see a P/P instead of an actual good thief build like S/D.

The problem is that new players can play P/P and think they are doing well (thereby not learning how to PvP) and new players who die to P/P get frustrated and stand no chance because they can't learn to play together and utilize the appropriate defenses.

It's just unhealthy for the game mode. I would even say more so than scourge ever was. Anyway, it doesn't really affect me too much since I don't really enjoy playing at the lower level and I'm mostly interested in tournaments, but it is a shame that Ranked players are getting a very rough deal this season (especially players stuck in Silver and Gold).

TL;DR P/P too E-Z needs nerf! :-P

New players should learn through experience what classes are capable of and how to counter builds like this. Removing/changing it isn't necessary.I believe this is the same learning process for P/P as well as other "cheese" builds and I've gone through this as a new players as I suspect many other have too:1 - You start to pvp and encounter a build like p/p which destroys you, seemingly giving you no chance to counter or beat them. Maybe you can't touch them for a whole match and watch as they decimate your team flawlessly.2 - This gives you the idea that this build has got to be superior if 1 player can control so much of a match with it.3 - You find out what the set-up is and try it yourself. Since you are in the newbie bracket, you have great success for a while (perhaps).4 - After a while, you rise out of the lower tier brackets using your cheese build, melting people and loving life. However you start coming up against players who seem to take no damage from you, or spike you down in seconds.5 - That's when you get a reality check - you realize the build is cheese and isn't going to be widely viable unless you adapt and change your strategy. You also now understand how to counter yourself(?) and are no longer vulnerable when against this type of build.

The same cycle can repeat at a higher level.

@Ubi.4136 said:The problem with thief, and all of the builds, is initiative. Until they remove initiative and give thief skills proper cooldowns, their are not going to be able to do any real balance, not for the class, or for the game.

Initiative is a fantastic unique mechanic which gives you two things -1 - the ability to chain skills quickly to burst enemies2 - encourages you to carefully consider how you use the resource

Removing this mechanic would make Thief far more bland IMO.

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if you lose to p/p it's because of either of two reasons:

  1. it was a surprise (understandable, happens to all of us)

  2. you can't punish ranged builds

if the p/p thief can outkite you, while keeping up pressure I think the loss is deserved. the thief while a pitiful spammer in one respect, is better at mobility and positioning than you are- the thief is more skilled.

so L2Punish. it's not bloody hard. the thief has 1-2 stunbreaks (step and perhaps roll) so land a CC while mitigating damage. pressure and punish.

if p/p thief makes you cry, and you're at a loss- just play core guard and learn now to JI burst. it's stupid easy and really effective, plus actually getting better at the game is going to help you when you play your main next time.

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