Please do something about the Renegade

I play all classes, usually I can make something work for pvp or wvw but this... I can't do anything with this.

Not a single person has been able to get this e-spec working in any gamemode outside of pve (which you can win with anything... even a minstrels ele -which what I played PoF with) and in every thread related to the renegade there has been a massive outcry for help.

I have no idea why it takes so long to make renegade a working spec. no fucking viable build is there in pvp. and trust me and other more competent have tried. and the best u have is some yolo zerker hammer jalis/shiro renegade.

We need a rework. either traps or make the effects so that thier cast time and duration is reworked and drastically reduced. maby single hit attacks.

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:I have no idea why it takes so long to make renegade a working spec. no kitten viable build is there in pvp. and trust me and other more competent have tried. and the best u have is some yolo zerker hammer jalis/shiro renegade.

We need a rework. either traps or make the effects so that thier cast time and duration is reworked and drastically reduced. maby single hit attacks.

When rev was on equal footing as the other classes, the people who have been appearing in top 10 for the past few seasons were completely farmed. Like, they wouldn’t even come close to ever winning 1v1. Completely 100-0d

Some of the game’s developers were also farmed in s1-s3 and may have also been trash talked (can’t recall).

This is my only reasoning as to why Renegade is in the state it’s in, along with herald being a good bit behind many of the other specs in game.

Nobody will admit this either but there was quite the crusade against rev because so many feelings were hurt.

I honestly don’t see it being made as good as other specs. It’s been 7 months now and well you are aware of how bad the spec is. Everyone is including the developers. It’s intentional.

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:I have no idea why it takes so long to make renegade a working spec. no kitten viable build is there in pvp. and trust me and other more competent have tried. and the best u have is some yolo zerker hammer jalis/shiro renegade.

We need a rework. either traps or make the effects so that thier cast time and duration is reworked and drastically reduced. maby single hit attacks.

Which answer do you want?

That they are probably criminally understaffed in regards to class balancing/design/reworking? As evident by the usually nice ideas but super-shoddy implementation of elite specs and even Revenant's "role-swapper" system as a whole?Or that their biggest per-class rework today was the Mesmer Phantasm changes, which, comparing what other MMOs do for every class about once every expansion was incredibly tiny and minor in impact, big as it was from our GW2 perspective?Or that their engine is ~13y old by now, and from all we know whenever they talk about technical reasons why something cannot be done is so hacked together and outdated and unusable by now that they cannot do what they'd need to do because the engine doesn't allow it and they cannot find time+people to rewrite it and port GW2 over to a new engine?

Frankly, it's best to consider GW2 "as is". Because from what the past 5,5 years have shown, with how insanely little reworks and significant changes they do compared to other MMORPGs, this is it. It won't ever change significantly.

@lordhelmos.7623 said:

Not a single person has been able to get this e-spec working in any gamemode outside of pve (which you can win with anything... even a minstrels ele -which what I played PoF with) and in every thread related to the renegade there has been a massive outcry for help.

Renegade's DNA is tailored to not be viable in PvP:

• A double hand wielding weapon (short bow) with 0 defensive and 0 mobility skills (which also performs poorly both in terms of damage and usability even against PvE targets).
• A uninspired traitline with nothing but a slight damage buff (oriented towards condition damage, which for long time has performed sub par in Revenat PvP builds).

• A new set of skills as bad (if not worse) than the Spiritual Weapons from Guardian; skills with high energy cost, no burst capability and overall poor utility.

  Can be reworked to be good at PvP/WvW? Well, technically they could tweak the numbers and make that each summon to hit like a truck, or to make the sb AA to crit for 5k, but being realist the answer is no: is like trying to genetically enhance a dachshund to compete in greyhound races. And would be also a waste of time, because at the end isn't a fun spec to play against other players: is a pet build and almost no class runs pet builds in PvP/WvW.

  They could use that time instead to try to enhance the core Rev, which currently is thrash but has some potential. The main sin of the Rev as a class was to be made from the begining as a character unable to perform without the Herald spec.

@JayAction.9056 said:

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:I have no idea why it takes so long to make renegade a working spec. no kitten viable build is there in pvp. and trust me and other more competent have tried. and the best u have is some yolo zerker hammer jalis/shiro renegade.

We need a rework. either traps or make the effects so that thier cast time and duration is reworked and drastically reduced. maby single hit attacks.

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:I have no idea why it takes so long to make renegade a working spec. no kitten viable build is there in pvp. and trust me and other more competent have tried. and the best u have is some yolo zerker hammer jalis/shiro renegade.

We need a rework. either traps or make the effects so that thier cast time and duration is reworked and drastically reduced. maby single hit attacks.

How depressing. Honestly I decided to play rev cause renegade appealed to me. had to settle for herald.(still love herald alot).Also it sucks that pvp team has to fight for influence over the balance team so mostly they can just tweak numbers and shit. somthing we told A-net is not goign to work.

@Buran.3796 said:

@lordhelmos.7623 said:

Not a single person has been able to get this e-spec working in any gamemode outside of pve (which you can win with anything... even a minstrels ele -which what I played PoF with) and in every thread related to the renegade there has been a massive outcry for help.

Renegade's DNA is tailored to not be viable in PvP:

• A double hand wielding weapon (short bow) with 0 defensive and 0 mobility skills (which also performs poorly both in terms of damage and usability even against PvE targets).
• A uninspired traitline with nothing but a slight damage buff (oriented towards condition damage, which for long time has performed sub par in Revenat PvP builds).

• A new set of skills as bad (if not worse) than the Spiritual Weapons from Guardian; skills with high energy cost, no burst capability and overall poor utility.
  Can be reworked to be good at PvP/WvW? Well, technically they could tweak the numbers and make that each summon to hit like a truck, or to make the sb AA to crit for 5k, but being realist the answer is no: is like trying to genetically enhance a dachshund to compete in greyhound races. And would be also a waste of time, because at the end isn't a fun spec to play against other players: is a pet build and almost no class runs pet builds in PvP/WvW.
  They could use that time instead to try to enhance the core Rev, which currently is thrash but has some potential. The main sin of the Rev as a class was to be made from the begining as a character unable to perform without the Herald spec.

You wouldnt need defensive or mobility skills on it if its skills didnt have so much delay and could apply ranged pressure the shortbow can easily be fixed by cutting the cast times by a solid 50% on most of the skills and reworking skill 3 completely. The reason its bad in pvp is because the delay on the skills makes it nearly impossible to actually hit moving players even without swiftness. The only skill you will hit occasionally will be skill 5 and of course the auto attack.

The utility is very situational a best they should at least have been ambush traps, wells, or something that some of them mechanically just do not work depending on your build if you are more power and less focused on condition you dont make use of the bleed spirit.If you are condi you dont make use of raw power dps spirit which does not even scale well with your power.The heal is far too weak although the condi reduction is nice some number adjustments could make this spirit at least ok sih a best.Each spirit aside from the elite should have no more of a cast time of 1/4 of a second. The elite maybe remaining at 3/4 but for every other utility thats far too long.

THE CAST TIME FOR A BREAKSTUN SHOULD NEVER BE THAT LONG ANET BETTER YET STOP MAKING BREAK STUNS WITH CAST TIMES ALL TOGETHER ITS BAD DESIGN.

Fix the bow cast timesFix the utility cast times and effectsMaybe adjust one or 2 traits and this would make a solid dps offensive support spec.

Being a fan of the charr race im pissed that this legend is a charr and its made so poorly. I would love to run this on my charr rev and i cant even bring myself to do it because the weapon skills cant hit a a target moving without swiftnessThe utility takes ages to summon and its extremely lacklusterThe whole base e spec mechanic is very lacking just extra attribute points really.... REALLY! The most uncreative thing that could be done. Why dont kalla fervor stacks improve the spirits summoned or your f skills even more than they already do at a baseline. ughhh

I thought i got heated over necro bs but this particularly e spec really pushes me. A friend got me to play rev and its really fun but far too dependent on glint I would like to use not glint things and feel not handy capped by poor design choices.

Renegade sucks because they designed an entire spec around a political motivation. You can see these design choices throughout the game, but they are probably most obvious when looking at the cliched living world characters, many of whom fit some sort of convenient racial or social stereotype.

Diversity is of course a good thing, but it has to be done right. A plot device or character has to exist for more reasons than to simply check off a box. The Revenant's elite spec is one of these boxes, and it worked out quite poorly.

Remember back during the elite spec previews? Every spec got like a 50 second clip or so, and they all had some cool mechanic to show off... Except the Rev. If I recall, even the person narrating didn't really know what made the Renegade unique, I think they said something like "and you can shoot arrows that teleport behind your target!". Yeeeah.

The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually not a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be fun to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

@Buran.3796 said:A new set of skills as bad (if not worse) than the Spiritual Weapons from Guardian; skills with high energy cost, no burst capability and overall poor utility.

I'll be honest, I don't truly get this part. Yes, for PvP and especially WvW they're 100% certified Useless, but this doesn't extend into PvE or their overall design.

The healing, single-target, interrupt and elite skills are pretty good. Only the AE bleed one is horribly bad. Plus, overall the whole idea of calling the warband in is cool, gives the traitline a lot of flair. And in PvE it's not like you have to worry much about them randomly dying, it's only AE CC moving them aside which is a problem.

The F2-F4 skills I don't get OTOH. They feel incredibly tacked-on, there shouldn't be a need for them.

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:Renegade sucks because they designed an entire spec around a political motivation. You can see these design choices throughout the game, but they are probably most obvious when looking at the cliched living world characters, many of whom fit some sort of convenient racial or social stereotype.

Diversity is of course a good thing, but it has to be done right. A plot device or character has to exist for more reasons than to simply check off a box. The Revenant's elite spec is one of these boxes, and it worked out quite poorly.

Remember back during the elite spec previews? Every spec got like a 50 second clip or so, and they all had some cool mechanic to show off... Except the Rev. If I recall, even the person narrating didn't really know what made the Renegade unique, I think they said something like "and you can shoot arrows that teleport behind your target!". Yeeeah.

The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually not a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be fun to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

Glint is litterally a girl. she litterally made babies.

A-net simply fucked up.

the complete design of renegade skills is unfair because watch all other legends , utilities are different itself no one doing exact the same thing as the others but renegade ... ALL DOING EXACT SAME THING .... this is easy to counter for all other classes ... if the next legend will get like THIS ... i willnot buy addon.

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:Renegade sucks because they designed an entire spec around a political motivation. You can see these design choices throughout the game, but they are probably most obvious when looking at the cliched living world characters, many of whom fit some sort of convenient racial or social stereotype.

Diversity is of course a good thing, but it has to be done right. A plot device or character has to exist for more reasons than to simply check off a box. The Revenant's elite spec is one of these boxes, and it worked out quite poorly.

Remember back during the elite spec previews? Every spec got like a 50 second clip or so, and they all had some cool mechanic to show off... Except the Rev. If I recall, even the person narrating didn't really know what made the Renegade unique, I think they said something like "and you can shoot arrows that teleport behind your target!". Yeeeah.

The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually

not

a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be

fun

to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

Yes, but all the other legends were male. I'm not kidding they legit said that going with Kalla also brought the male/female ratio more in line.

Kalla's mechanics are driven by her lore first and foremost, and by sensible design as an afterthought. It would have made more sense to make her s-1, 2, 3 skills AoE (or just remove them), and her utility skills to change her physical attacks to embody the war band member she has chosen to channel.

Renegade failure has little to do with it being racially based. It has many significant failures, but it’s greatest failure is inability to add anything to rev as class. It did not add any new builds or functionality. The ranged condi weapon has no place in any game mode.

It is nothing more than power creep on the already existing condi build from HoT. No amount of number massaging can fix that.

I already outlined a lot of problems with renegade and a fix for them, but TL;DR:

-Renegade traits lack utility and more importantly sustain, which is a huge problem considering you give up infused light and dragon stance.-Citadel orders feel non-impactful.-F3 is either bugged or the tooltip is very wrong. It claims it sends a fixed 10 missiles/3 per target but in truth it's totally random between 1-6 missiles regardless of target.-Spirits lack defensive utility-Bow lacks any form of self defense

Link in my signature.

@Arkantos.7460 said:the complete design of renegade skills is unfair because watch all other legends , utilities are different itself no one doing exact the same thing as the others but renegade ... ALL DOING EXACT SAME THING .... this is easy to counter for all other classes ... if the next legend will get like THIS ... i willnot buy addon.

Eh? Herald are all PBAE pulsing boons. Ventari are all skills which manipulate or move the tablet. Did you never leave Shiro/Mallys/Jalis? :tongue:

Plus there's hardly no precedent, because in a way legends are like skill types, and many many skill types have all skills use the same underlying mechanic, e.g. Mantras or Wells.

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said:

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:Renegade sucks because they designed an entire spec around a political motivation. You can see these design choices throughout the game, but they are probably most obvious when looking at the cliched living world characters, many of whom fit some sort of convenient racial or social stereotype.

Diversity is of course a good thing, but it has to be done right. A plot device or character has to exist for more reasons than to simply check off a box. The Revenant's elite spec is one of these boxes, and it worked out quite poorly.

Remember back during the elite spec previews? Every spec got like a 50 second clip or so, and they all had some cool mechanic to show off... Except the Rev. If I recall, even the person narrating didn't really know what made the Renegade unique, I think they said something like "and you can shoot arrows that teleport behind your target!". Yeeeah.

The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually

not

a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be

fun

to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

But you are still not making any sense. here glint is straight up the strongest legend here and she is a girl. all other male legends have comparatively high energy costs and offer way less versatility in a competetive setting. Having another female doesn't automatically fuck up the design or limit it to a lore that is heavily npc driven such Kalla scorchrazor, as proven by glint bieng the outright best pick .What fucked it up a U said is the lore. not wheter the the character is female or male. That decision is going to be made either way. They shouldn't have been so stupid as to make it so lore driven.

just make the warband members unkillable and defiant but reduce the radius

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Buran.3796 said:A new set of skills as bad (if not worse) than the Spiritual Weapons from Guardian; skills with high energy cost, no burst capability and overall poor utility.

Happens that this thread is about the PvP part of the spec (if you read the first line of the first post). I guess that nothing is wrong with Renenegade in PvE, but is only an educated guess from mine due the expansion was released in September 22 and two weeks later I have already leaved the spec to play the same power Herald as ever.

From the first leaks in January of 2017 my only interest in the spec was to known if the short bow would made viable a condi build for PvP and roaming; once in the open beta testing the weapon and spec was proved utterly useless for that task I lost any interest in (Renegade is just plain the worst class in the game from my point of view, which is the one of a person that plays mostly PvP/WvW). Revenant related, Path of Fire bring me mounts (which are fine for gathering/map completion) and a huge amount of Revenant nerfs (Equilibrium, Mutilate Defenses, Impossible Odds...) plus a huge power creep in all the other classes thanx to the arrive of new, competitive specs which are viable in PVp/WvW.

@otto.5684 said:The ranged condi weapon has no place in any game mode.

Mostly, but Thieves, Mesmers and Necros can do well roaming fighting at range with condi stats.

@Buran.3796 said:

@otto.5684 said:The ranged condi weapon has no place in any game mode.

I will rephrase, renegade SB has no place currently in any game mode ?

@Buran.3796 said:or to make the sb AA to crit for 5k

They tried that with Deadeye, didn't work :/

@witcher.3197 said:

They tried that with Deadeye, didn't work :/

True. DE has no place at high level play, but at least is playable in PvP up to gold and platinum, and I must say that in some maps as Skyhammer fightim them can be a pain. That's a whole level ahead of anything that the Renegade is able to perform in PvP.

@JayAction.9056 said:

This is my only reasoning as to why Renegade is in the state it’s in, along with herald being a good bit behind many of the other specs in game.

Nobody will admit this either but there was quite the crusade against rev because so many feelings were hurt.

I honestly don’t see it being made as good as other specs. It’s been 7 months now and well you are aware of how bad the spec is. Everyone is including the developers. It’s intentional.

Also here, there is some truth to this but I believe you are giving Anet too much slack. The reality is the mistakes they are making now are really the same mistakes they have been making since Guild Wars: Nightfall - release. Add a bunch of new content that breaks PvP, and then devote less than 20% of the dev time necessary towards fixing it since the PvP community is deemed too small to be worth the effort. It becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy: PvP is a smaller community, so less attention is given to it, which results in the PvP community shrinking even more because players get tired of the problems and just quit.

At least I sure hope this is the case. If things like the Mutilate Defenses nerf was actually an intentional trolling of the Rev community then that's pretty sad. I seriously doubt the balance team would be that childish though. They probably just don't see the value in PvP enough to devote the attention needed to understand why the change was bad and why it should be reverted. In PvE it was a buff. That satisfies 90% of the community, and in the statisticians book that's a job well done.

Class favoritism has a pretty high chance of being present in the balance team for sure, but a lot of it is really just a genuine lack of resources being given to the PvP scene.

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually not a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be fun to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

I'm still mad they didn't take Varesh Ossa instead of that dumb gorilla Mallyx. Perfect opportunity for a really good female character, and it got wasted.

I still prefer Kalla to Pyre, but yeah, it was handled pretty poorly as a legend, and feels completely out of place in Elona. Some legendary sunspear would have been a far better choice, like Queen Nadijeh, but I guess spellbreaker already took those themes for himself.

Anyway, few revenant and renegade redesign ideas here for those interested.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"nosleepdemon.1368" said:The Renegade is the victim of a politically correct design philosophy - they wanted a female legend who beat sexual stereotypes and won the day. Unfortunately, they designed her kit and everything else about Renegade to match this ideal - Kalla's skills all call in members of the Warband she led to help her. This causes all sorts of monstrous problems, from high skill cost due to the unique and "impactful" nature of each member of her Warband, to the fact that they are physical manifestations that can be cc'd and/or killed. Even worse Kalla herself is just frigging boring. Sure, she is an important figure from Charr history, but she's actually

not

a fun or exciting legend to "play as".

The most important consideration of game design, is to make sure your "hook" is compelling. Before story, before theme, before anything like that, the mechanics have to be

fun

to interact with. The Renegade fails this basic design principle.

But hey, Kalla sure does diversify the Revenant's selection of legends.

Mallyx is dopey, and his random vocal lines don't do him any favours. "I shall consume you from within!" "yeah, whatevs buddy".