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Multiple balance modes.


apharma.3741

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This is about the current implementation of skill splits.

First off I do believe skill splits are healthy for the game, it can help with balancing out stronger PvP classes in PvE and vice versa where their strengths are directly related to how the class is designed. However the implementation of this means we have....

3 different states.PvE balance where skills do a lot more damage a lot of the time.PvP balance where some skills are reduced in duration and cool down or have longer cool downs.WvW balance which is closer to PvP but we still have things like endure pain, auto proc defences and other things like celestial avatar cool down differences and they aren’t small differences.

In my opinion PvP and WvW balance should be almost identical. If something is too strong in one game mode then it is usually too strong in the other or at least a change can be implemented without negatively affecting the other.

Another issue is that I tend to use guild halls for duels within my guild and friends however guild halls have PvE balance where everything is so completely bonkers in terms of being overtuned it’s become harder and harder to have genuine practise especially when we are all on the same server and will not move. An example is blurred frenzy will do double damage in PvE and mental anguish (mind wrack shatter damage trait) instead of being 10%/20% damage increase is 25%/50%.

This can’t be good for the game and will end up being confusing to a lot of new players and even veteran players. It also can’t be good for the balance team to have to consider 3 different game modes when making balance changes.

Is there any plans to simplify the skill splits down to PvE and competitive balance where PvP and WvW use the same balance?

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@Uncle Dalty.8327 said:Have to disagree... a better fix to your problem would probably be to include a Guild Arena split that uses the sPvP skills.

It isn’t just that though, you fight a Druid in PvP and it has 20s CD on celestial avatar, fight it in WvW and it’s the same trolltastic build it was before the recent skill split with 15s on celestial avatar and in PvE it’s even lower at 10s.

What I’m drawing attention to is we have 3 different balance iterations with distinct differences between both competitive modes where in reality there shouldn’t be a difference.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@Uncle Dalty.8327 said:Have to disagree... a better fix to your problem would probably be to include a Guild Arena split that uses the sPvP skills.

It isn’t just that though, you fight a Druid in PvP and it has 20s CD on celestial avatar, fight it in WvW and it’s the same trolltastic build it was before the recent skill split with 15s on celestial avatar and in PvE it’s even lower at 10s.

What I’m drawing attention to is we have 3 different balance iterations with distinct differences between both competitive modes where in reality there shouldn’t be a difference.

unfortunately if the skills were not split the way they are, balance in at least on of the game modes would be a complete dumpster fire.... not saying it's not anyway atm... but imagine it being worse lol.

Edit: I get 3 types of the same skill can get confusing for new players.... but 9/10 times its just a CD/Dmg modifier ... which isn't changing the skill's functionality. so its not like they have to learn a new skill altogether.... you play gw1? now that game had a lot of skills to learn and they were split as well.... good old days.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@Uncle Dalty.8327 said:Have to disagree... a better fix to your problem would probably be to include a Guild Arena split that uses the sPvP skills.

It isn’t just that though, you fight a Druid in PvP and it has 20s CD on celestial avatar, fight it in WvW and it’s the same trolltastic build it was before the recent skill split with 15s on celestial avatar and in PvE it’s even lower at 10s.

What I’m drawing attention to is we have 3 different balance iterations with distinct differences between both competitive modes where in reality there shouldn’t be a difference.

considering that pvp & wvw dont use the same gear system (amulets vs armour, plus different sigil/rune selections) why would you expect them to have the same skill balance?

because they certainly dont have the same stat or gear balance.

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@apharma.3741 said:Is there any plans to simplify the skill splits down to PvE and competitive balance where PvP and WvW use the same balance?

This would require that skills and most traits are fundamentally redesigned to be less spammy, and to do fewer things. Along with that, it may require HoT to be nerfed again, and possibly some enemies in PoF, because its very obvious that those mobs were made stronger specifically because of the ridiculous power creep of the elite specs in each expansion (more noticeable in HoT, but there are still a small amount of PoF mobs that I think are the same way), and the last thing Anet wants to do from a business perspective, is make the only 2 paid parts of the game significantly harder for new players by bring all classes in line with where they should be for a healthy competitive scene.

This is, unfortunately, the only way to get better competitive balance while simplifying the skill splits, since Anet doesn't want to ever split functionality, just numbers. But when something is fundamentally broken in its design, you will never be able to balance it in PvE and competitive modes with just number differences.

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PvP is balanced around running to and around (usually) white circles against 5 opponents.WvW is balanced around something along the lines of 20v20 encounters, and while the sometimes white circles (or rectangles) play a part, they aren't as oppressive cornerstones of the game mode.How do you propose these be un-split?I rate a semblance of balance higher than new player confusion in my list of priorities. SO no thanks!

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PvP is balanced around running to and around (usually) white circles against 5 opponents.WvW is balanced around something along the lines of 20v20 encounters

Sadly WvWvW is not balanced at all. Only 5 out of professions are part of the 20vs20 zerg meta. Look at any big squad or enemy blob and you can see that most are playing scourge or firebrand. The other common choices are weaver, spellbreaker and hammer revenant. And few mesmers are needed for utilities, like portal. Rangers and thieves, mesmers and warriors are common in roaming. Engis are the least played profession. Scourges (necro) and firebrands (guardian) are the most played professions.

WvWvW is really different from spvp. It is not just gear. It is all the structural buffs, much bigger open maps, consumables, possibility to mix runes etc. When the maps are really big mobility plays a bigger role. A lot of the fights are very uneven e.g. 1 vs 3-20, so "get out of jail" card traits and skills e.g. teleports and stealth are much more needed. In big group fights the amount of boons and conditions flying is just crazy and often causes lag.

I can very well understand that hammer revenant won't do well in spvp as most players aren't dumb to just stand in line to get all the hammer hits in, but it is still part of WvWvW zerg backline as it can hit really hard from 1200 range (and you can be behind your own zerg and still wear zerker armor). Stealth is not that super powerful in spvp, because you cannot contest or capture a point, while being in stealth. But in WvWvW stealth is so good it is broken. Yet for some reason, revealed in shorter in WvWvW than in spvp. In WvWvW revealed should be longer than spvp, about 5 seconds. Permanent stealth should not be possible, yet it is currently.

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@apharma.3741 said:In my opinion PvP and WvW balance should be almost identical. If something is too strong in one game mode then it is usually too strong in the other...

Not really, the balance between the two modes is completely different, as you would expect when one game mode is 10 people fighting over 3 points, whilst the other mainly consists of zergs of varying sizes (be it guilds or blobs) (and to top it off with access to every stat/rune/sigil in the game.)

So to an example for years in this game you had the GWEN meta in WvW, where over that period if you take engy as an example it was basically surplus to requirements for blobs/guilds and considered pretty useless, meanwhile over that period in PvP it was generally at least pretty good and at times broken OP with things like cele engy, 100 nades, etc.

So basically the complete opposite to what you claim, PvP balance did not reflect WvW balance in any meaningful way.

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