Observations playing Condi in PvP

I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well. On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally can't touch builds with lots of cleanse.
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

I have to agree, pre hot the condi engineer was super strong, only Necro gave it some problems. Holo is and scrapper are boring compared to how the the 3kit engine used to be.

Condi Engi hasn't evolved since Pre-HoT. It's part of a time conditions were cards to play and cleanses weren't abundant in response.

@coro.3176 said:I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well. On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally can't touch builds with lots of cleanse.
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

That's all true ... and it's all good reasons to not play condi in PVP.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people
  and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well
  . On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot
  on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills
  compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility
  (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally
  can't touch builds with lots of cleanse
  .
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow
  and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

well.. it's not good in PvE either - especially considering how complex it is.

It's basically not worth playing at all anywhere. (*maaaaybe wvw roaming but only vs classes with no condi cleanse)

I just got bored of Holo's repetitive rotation.

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people
  and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well
  . On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot
  on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills
  compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility
  (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally
  can't touch builds with lots of cleanse
  .
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow
  and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

Being complex doesn't make it not good in PVE ... besides, we were talking about PVP here. My point is that if you play competitively against people in games, you use the tools that are the best for the job that work for you. If a tool isn't good or doesn't work for you, you shouldn't use it. It's pretty important to realize very fast that something not being good isn't a compelling reason for Anet to change it. It's hasn't been for 6 years. It's not going to start now. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can adjust your play and make choices appropriate for how you like playing the game.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people
  and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well
  . On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot
  on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills
  compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility
  (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally
  can't touch builds with lots of cleanse
  .
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow
  and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

If that's true, then no one should play Engineer at all right now. The objectively best tool for PvP right now is Chrono or Mirage.

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:I've been messing around with pistols/condi builds in PvP recently (much to my teammates' despair, I'm sure). Here are some observations.

• it takes a really long time to kill people
  and that's hard to justify in PvP. If it takes a P/P condi build 30 seconds to down a player on a node, but it takes a holosmith 5 seconds, playing holosmith in that situation is worth ~25 seconds of point ticks more than the condi build.
• a lot of times, a losing opponent can limp back to their team halfway across the map because your conditions take SO LONG to kill them.
• it can't cleave downs very well
  . On holo, all you need to do is spam damage in their general area. On condi, I can't seem to output enough damage to prevent a res or pressure anyone - especially when a support FB starts ressing.
• speaking of support FB, a single one on the other team can almost completely shut down your conditions. You might as well leave the point and go elsewhere.
• reflect sucks a lot
  on P/P. You're left with Blowtorch(long cooldown), Glue Shot(long cooldown, no damage) and .. that's it. If you accidentally Static Shot into a reflect, the self-blind is pretty punishing too.
• buggier skills
  compared to holo: Compare landing Blowtorch (misses with any height difference, misses if the target moves slightly out of the cone) to landing holo shockwave or corona burst (hits far up and down ledges, seems to never miss).
• less mobility
  (gives up Jump Shot and Holo Leap)
• literally
  can't touch builds with lots of cleanse
  .
• surprisingly, some builds are really weak to P/P condi though (certain thieves, bad scourges/reaper)
• huge risk if condi is transferred back by a necro mark or sigil
• static shot doesn't do much when most skill hit multiple times.
• pistol auto is slow
  and doesn't even do enough to out-damage most classes' passive regen/sustain.

Ultimately, it just feels like you're handicapping yourself by playing condi. You give up so much but you get .. nothing.

That really depends. Don't underestimate how important the player is in these game environments. besides, you appear to be assuming that people choose classes just to win ... I think that's a bad assumption to make. If a player defines 'the best for the job' as being the most fun for them ... then Engi can still be a vaild choice that works for them. if your ONLY interest is winning ... you better follow closely what the meta is and be willing to swap classes and builds around quite a bit.

There's a difference between 'not meta' and 'completely and utterly ineffective'. I would say condi engi in pvp is closer to the latter right now than the former. I don't think it needs to be a top tier build. I do think it needs to be playable.

@coro.3176 said:There's a difference between 'not meta' and 'completely and utterly ineffective'. I would say condi engi in pvp is closer to the latter right now than the former. I don't think it needs to be a top tier build. I do think it needs to be playable.

For sure. At any level higher than gold, core condi engi is virtually unplayable. Even a holosmith burn condi engi is really hard to wield with any effectiveness. You have to catch people who are unaware or who lack any decent condi removal.

Some old footage off mine from the glory days, when it was actually a strong class.

@coro.3176 said:There's a difference between 'not meta' and 'completely and utterly ineffective'. I would say condi engi in pvp is closer to the latter right now than the former. I don't think it needs to be a top tier build. I do think it needs to be playable.

Maybe ... but that's not a problem. I don't see why one particular spec needs to be playable at all and if one does, why this one. Anet hasn't made any attempt EVER of making a whole bunch of highly performing specs for every class, so why condi spec on core Engi?

I recently returned to the game after like a 5 year hiatus, and I rolled an engineer because I love pistols and I love the idea of getting to wield a "lightsaber". I hit level 80 a few nights ago, and I'm already feeling horrible sense of regret playing this profession.

As soon as I unlock my raptor mount I'll probably just shelf this character and/or use him for open world shenanigans only. I really hope they balance things better in the near future. Is it always this bad near the launch of a new expansion and then things get better later on? Or has balance always been so polarizing with distinct meta builds and completely unviable builds?

I guess I'll have to accept what I may find extremely fun may unfortunately also be extremely underpowered. (Had hopes and dreams of playing competitively with either condi p/p, hammer scrapper, or sword holosmith, apparently all 3 are trash compared to the rifle which I can't stand using.)

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"coro.3176" said:There's a difference between 'not meta' and 'completely and utterly ineffective'. I would say condi engi in pvp is closer to the latter right now than the former. I don't think it needs to be a top tier build. I do think it needs to be playable.

a few reasons:

• Condi is a main focus of the engineer class. 2/4 of our base weapons are condition-primary. Rune of the Engineer is a condi rune.
• Core specs should be viable in PvP. This is only fair to free-to-play players. If they are not, then the game is "buy to win" from their perspective. The fact that core specs are not viable undercuts Anet's decision to allow F2P for the base game.
• Making Condi / Pistol viable is the only way (barring a massive class redesign) to buff core engi without making Holosmith or Scrapper overpowered. Holosmith and Scrapper both make poor use of pistols + conditions. Holo is very much a power spec at the moment, and Scrapper plays best with a tanky power setup as well. This makes condi uniquely "safe" to buff without unbalancing the elite specs.
• But if that won't convince you, here it is from Anet themselves in their own words

High Level Goals...Increase build diversity

...we hope to give increased viability to builds that previously were pushed out by these dominant specs. We're also increasing power levels in some targeted areas that previously were underperforming.

... including buffs to pistol (reduced cooldown on a few pistol skills)

So clearly build diversity is something they strive for, and clearly they want to improve pistol, since it is underperforming.

@Eddy Stylez.3259 said:

I guess I'll have to accept what I may find extremely fun may unfortunately also be extremely underpowered. (Had hopes and dreams of playing competitively with either condi p/p, hammer scrapper, or sword holosmith, apparently all 3 are trash compared to the rifle which I can't stand using.)

Someone's been misinforming you as 2 out of the 3 mentioned builds aren't trash. Sword Holo and Hammer Scrapper are rather playable atm, just don't expect to climb very high with them. The main advantage rifle has is being able to poke from range as a holo, then closing in to go ham with Photon Forge. That's very strong against something like Spellbreaker that only melees.Sword/Shield Holo and Hammer Scrapper actually have a very similar playstyle, they rely on almost the same traits from core engi. Scrapper is more tanky but holo can alternate between defense and offense, and make enemies afraid of your burst.

Honestly, I wouldn't listen to high ranked players about what's viable and what's not because from their perspective only the most efficient(meta) builds are viable, and it's mostly true for them. People on lower ranks however don't need the most effective builds because their opponents aren't that great either. No one will be using their build/kit to its prime efficiency so you can be a bit more relaxed about your build. You just need a brain to see whether your build has a decent effect on your opponents, and what fights you can take, and what fights not to take. You might even warm up to rifle at some point when you experience what it delivers.

For example, after a lengthy duel I did manage to take out a bunker chrono(one of the defining meta classes atm) with hammer scrapper. No +1's for either of us, so I won fair and square. Scrapper also heavily counters any class that relies on projectiles, like rangers and deadeyes.

@"Eddy Stylez.3259" said:I recently returned to the game after like a 5 year hiatus, and I rolled an engineer because I love pistols and I love the idea of getting to wield a "lightsaber". I hit level 80 a few nights ago, and I'm already feeling horrible sense of regret playing this profession.

As soon as I unlock my raptor mount I'll probably just shelf this character and/or use him for open world shenanigans only. I really hope they balance things better in the near future. Is it always this bad near the launch of a new expansion and then things get better later on? Or has balance always been so polarizing with distinct meta builds and completely unviable builds?

I guess I'll have to accept what I may find extremely fun may unfortunately also be extremely underpowered. (Had hopes and dreams of playing competitively with either condi p/p, hammer scrapper, or sword holosmith, apparently all 3 are trash compared to the rifle which I can't stand using.)

I wouldn't say scrapper hammer is in a good place, but at lower tiers it is viable. As long as you don't have scourges ruining your day, it is perfectly viable.

Sword is viable at a higher level, but you have to take an extremely defensive build. @zoopop.5630 and I have worked on this build which we both use in platinum PvP, I run the turretless and ECSU version, he runs the Thumper Turret and Thermal Release Valve version. Both versions seem to have a significant amount of sustain, but heavy CC builds (particularly chronomancer) tend to shit on it.

As for polarizing meta builds... there wasn't as great a divide in outcomes if you ran a nonstandard build prior to the launch of HoT. Since that time, the powercreep has truly made nonstandard builds much riskier to take with much lower rewards. The devs need to do a lot to either bring currently overpowered stuff down and older, less viable stuff up.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Eddy Stylez.3259 said:

I guess I'll have to accept what I may find extremely fun may unfortunately also be extremely underpowered. (Had hopes and dreams of playing competitively with either condi p/p, hammer scrapper, or sword holosmith, apparently all 3 are trash compared to the rifle which I can't stand using.)

I played sword/shield holo on all three of my accounts and im sitting in top 20-30 on two accounts , and other my main account im in the 100s but i also play to obtain xx amount of gold instead of grinding for a top spot.

keep in mind all, conditions are supposed to be a damage over time aspect of the game, not a bursting aspect. The argument can be said that scourges are strong and output a lot of condis and can kill quicker than condi engi. This is true, but also remember that a lot of their condi output comes from their frequent boon corrupts. Boon application being as easy as it is, is also a big problem and contributes to some condi specs that can focus on corrupting boons being more effective than others.I am sure there are also other factors that make scourge super strong when it comes to condi application, but the fact of the matter is, condition builds are supposed to take time slowly melting away the opponent, and not supposed to be i apply 8 stacks of burning and everything else on you at one time and burst you down to nothing within 5 seconds.

So the proper balance would be to have high sustain + slow condi dmg v/s low sustain + fast power burst. In an ideal GW2, Condis are slow killers but tanky, Powers do more damage but are squishier. Sounds good to me, but Anet kinda destroyed this...

@Ardid.7203 said:So the proper balance would be to have high sustain + slow condi dmg v/s low sustain + fast power burst. In an ideal GW2, Condis are slow killers but tanky, Powers do more damage but are squishier. Sounds good to me, but Anet kinda destroyed this...

That's a good reason for Anet to not pursue any activity to focus on a specific spec to up it's performance .. the game just isn't built so there is a long-term solution to ensure multiple, high performance specs. Chasing meta will never make any sense here.

Again, see Anet thread from the last balance patch: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Increased build diversity is one of their goals.

@"coro.3176" said:Again, see Anet thread from the last balance patch: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Increased build diversity is one of their goals.

I think you're version of build diversity and Anet's differ ... significantly; this isn't a new thing for them to claim build diversity is a goal ... yet 6 years later here we are. Anet doesn't measure builds by performance only or if they do, they have shown great levels of incompetence in doing so ... as your observations related to condi builds on core engi demonstrates. Anet is not foolish enough to think that any work they do to target a specific build for high performance isn't easily undone quickly by a change in meta ... a not-infrequent occurring thing not in their control. While I won't claim to know what they mean exactly by diversity, I have seen no evidence from them to think it's related to having a whole bunch of builds that work at a similar level performance-wise. That's simply not a worthwhile thing for them to spend their time doing, taking lots of effort, resulting in little returns and quickly undone by other game changes.

I think the big step here isn't just to identify condi engi isn't good at PVP. That's the easy part. It's not even really important why. Frankly, I'm doubtful that if Anet does target something, it's core engi. Seems that their efforts are aligned to making Scrapper the go-to PVP/WVW spec, just by it's very design and by the recent changes towards barriers.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"coro.3176" said:Again, see Anet thread from the last balance patch:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Increased build diversity is one of their goals.I think the big step here isn't just to identify condi engi isn't good at PVP. That's the easy part. It's not even really important why. Frankly, I'm doubtful that if Anet does target something, it's core engi. Seems that their efforts are aligned to making Scrapper the go-to PVP/WVW spec, just by it's very design and by the recent changes towards barriers.

Yeah, but their behavior towards other classes suggests they want to make core classes viable, if not meta. You can see it in their treatment of spellbreaker to make it viable in PvE, or core thief and core guardian's continued persistence in PvP.

@"Ardid.7203" said:So the proper balance would be to have high sustain + slow condi dmg v/s low sustain + fast power burst. In an ideal GW2, Condis are slow killers but tanky, Powers do more damage but are squishier. Sounds good to me, but Anet kinda destroyed this...I think the ideal balance would be to have condition damage counter its respectful build types. Bunkers. Bunkers should be able to tank physical damage like a boss, but should lack condition removal, thus being countered by heavy condition pressures. Supports should be able to trump condition damage pressure through heals and clears, but should also be vulnerable to physical damage. Burst damagers should be glass cannons, being able to output heavy physical damage at the expense of survivability/sustainability. Spikers should have great sustained damage, borderline burst damage, and AT MOST decent tanking capabilities (nothing better than decent, else it's broken). Bruisers should have great defensive capabilities, decent damage, and SOME condi clear, but not enough to trump a sustained condi build. Glassy condi builds should be able to "burst" ramp up many conditions, but not to a point that it's not able to be outplayed. Also, burst condition applicators should be teamfight orientated (much like scourge), and should be heavily punished for trying to act as a solo tanky condition user. Sustained condition applicators should be able take 1v1s as a condition style bruiser, but not be able to apply as many conditions as its burst counterpart, and much more able to survive physical damage. (i think glass condi applicators, as well, should be able to clear conditions a bit better than sustained condition applicators.)

The issue right now, is that roles are blurred. Too many builds can perform extremely well in more than one role, sometimes even more than two roles. This is why we're not seeing proper balance.

EDIT: Also, physical spikers should be able to clear condis better than bruisers, but unable to take as much damage as a full on bruiser.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"coro.3176" said:Again, see Anet thread from the last balance patch:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29690/pvp-wvw-skill-split-release/p1

Increased build diversity is one of their goals.I think the big step here isn't just to identify condi engi isn't good at PVP. That's the easy part. It's not even really important why. Frankly, I'm doubtful that if Anet does target something, it's core engi. Seems that their efforts are aligned to making Scrapper the go-to PVP/WVW spec, just by it's very design and by the recent changes towards barriers.

That's a very subjective assessment ... I've never seen Anet use terms like 'viable' and 'meta', yet people throw them around like they are agreed upon levels of performance by everyone. That's not the case.

Yes, Anet does things to class balance that change how desirable a class might be in a given game element, but I see nothing that convinces me that we are going all the sudden have all these 'viable' (whatever that means) builds for every spec in every class in every game mode. That's a monumental amount of work ... Anet can't even do one spec on one class for one game mode in a single patch ... think reality here.

if condi engi is SO bad ... how much work woudl it need to make it 'viable', compared to other engi builds that are much better than it is that are already almost there? It doesn't make sense to nominate the WORST spec as the one that needs to become 'viable'.