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The Glacial Pace of Balance


Vagrant.7206

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Just played several matches where chronomancers were not only able to tank like crazy, but the damage and CC output was well beyond holosmith levels. I ended up getting stunlocked as soon as my stability or stunbreak was used.

I can't comprehend this. Why does it take this long to balance? I know this has been going on for years. What is going on internally at ArenaNet that is leading to this kind of slow reaction to major changes they made not too long ago?

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Balance has always been slow and methodical. This has arguably worked before, but this time is different. I don’t think a single build has had this level of combined sustain and damage before in the game.

The really bad part is that the build you reference is just so completely not fun to play against. Even when Spell Breaker was totally broken at release, at least it was fun to play against (relatively speaking). This Chrono build is playing 100% defensively and putting up massive damage numbers. It’s an OG Tank-Mage.

Anyways, I am not defending A-Net, and they totally dropped the ball with the decision to buff Mesmers this much. But this is kind of an unprecedented state of OP for this build in particular.

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We have been begging for an AMA with the balance team for years and never gotten one. It's because of one of three reasons, the balance team is actually not existing. There are no set people at ANet that only handles balance.They are ashamed of what the game has become and avoid any kind of confrontation in order to not be embarrassed.The balance team is in reality a single person, which is why any kind of changes takes literal months to get implemented.

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I’m not sure why everyone is surprised at this point. They have gone on record to say they would only do mid season balance patching from now on for some questionable reason I can’t recall offhand.

What irks me is that they asked the community for feedback on the last patch preview, but disregarded all good suggestions as far as I can tell. People warned that mesmers would be too strong and they did nothing to stop it.

At least we have chairs, resource node glyphs, and more ugly mount skins being released weekly. Pretty good resource allocation if you ask me.

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@Exalted Quality.8534 said:I’m not sure why everyone is surprised at this point. They have gone on record to say they would only do mid season balance patching from now on for some questionable reason I can’t recall offhand.

What irks me is that they asked the community for feedback on the last patch preview, but disregarded all good suggestions as far as I can tell. People warned that mesmers would be too strong and they did nothing to stop it.

At least we have chairs, resource node glyphs, and more ugly mount skins being released weekly. Pretty good resource allocation if you ask me.

No chairs in Heart of the Mistsfeelsbadman

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They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

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@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this fucking hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

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@messiah.1908 said:they reduce the dmg output while also give more illusion outputthese two make chrono OP

i think the solution is simple

staff proc 1 illusion bit more dmgshield proc 1 illusion longer block duration

Sure. Instead of actually fixing the problem, lets fundamentally change how chrono shield 4 works because reasons. Mind you, this won't actually solve the problem, at all, but it would make people that don't understand what the problem even is feel better. So clearly its the best possible solution.

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@zoopop.5630 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

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@zoopop.5630 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Mesmers were never doing 42k dps. This is nonsense.

And are Ineptitude mesmers really that nasty? They've died off in favor of bunker Chrono.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

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@"mortrialus.3062" said:

Mesmers were never doing 42k dps. This is nonsense.

And are Ineptitude mesmers really that nasty? They've died off in favor of bunker Chrono.

To be fair, there was a "Bugged Chrono" build that abused Mind Wrack and was, in fact, hitting the aforementioned ludicrous benchmarks, but that has since been patched.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

Phantasms were either something you cast and forgot about, or were ineffective at anything aside from being shatter fodder.

After being reworked to only attack once before becoming a clone, the design and damage on all of our phantasms were radically reweighted.

Now instead of being only worthwhile for damage on long encounte, almost all of our phantasms are heavily impactful in a fight. On it's own this is mostly fine.

But one Trait, Chronophantasma, and one heal skill, signet of the ether, literally quadruple the damage output of phantasms.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

In the redesign, phantasms were rebalanced around only being able to cast 1 single attack. This means that the vast majority of them were buffed through the roof (which is another issue, when Anet buffs something it feels like most of the time the buff either does nothing, or it buffs something to ridiculously OP levels). Again, this is a problem of its own (for example, why is Disenchanter, which is a utility phantasm, dealing so much damage. Why is defender, a defensive phantasm, dealing so much damage?), but it also means that traits that allow us to get more than 1 phantasm per skill use (CP, IB) are overtuned, and SotE is absolutely broken.

Nerfing the phantasms, while some absolutely need nerfs, won't solve the problem that they are now balanced around getting off 1 attack per skill CD, so any trait or skill which negates that balance is a design problem. IB has a built in nerf to keep it in check, but CP does not, and you can't put such an effect on SotE easily (plus, it should be redesigned anyway).

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@OriOri.8724 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

In the redesign, phantasms were rebalanced around only being able to cast 1 single attack. This means that the vast majority of them were buffed through the roof (which is another issue, when Anet buffs something it feels like most of the time the buff either does nothing, or it buffs something to ridiculously OP levels). Again, this is a problem of its own (for example, why is Disenchanter, which is a utility phantasm, dealing so much damage. Why is defender, a defensive phantasm, dealing so much damage?), but it also means that traits that allow us to get more than 1 phantasm per skill use (CP, IB) are overtuned, and SotE is absolutely broken.

Nerfing the phantasms, while some absolutely need nerfs, won't solve the problem that they are now balanced around getting off 1 attack per skill CD, so any trait or skill which negates that balance is a design problem. IB has a built in nerf to keep it in check, but CP does not, and you can't put such an effect on SotE easily (plus, it should be redesigned anyway).

Defender is no longer a defensive phantasm. The skill it uses is even called Illusion of Defense. Clearly the illusion tricked you.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

In the redesign, phantasms were rebalanced around only being able to cast 1 single attack. This means that the vast majority of them were buffed through the roof (which is another issue, when Anet buffs something it feels like most of the time the buff either does nothing, or it buffs something to ridiculously OP levels). Again, this is a problem of its own (for example, why is Disenchanter, which is a utility phantasm, dealing so much damage. Why is defender, a defensive phantasm, dealing so much damage?), but it also means that traits that allow us to get more than 1 phantasm per skill use (CP, IB) are overtuned, and SotE is absolutely broken.

Nerfing the phantasms, while some absolutely need nerfs, won't solve the problem that they are now balanced around getting off 1 attack per skill CD, so any trait or skill which negates that balance is a design problem. IB has a built in nerf to keep it in check, but CP does not, and you can't put such an effect on SotE easily (plus, it should be redesigned anyway).

Defender is no longer a defensive phantasm. The skill it uses is even called Illusion of Defense. Clearly the illusion tricked you.

Well played ANet

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

Easy explaination.

ANet had to change a lot of stuff with the phantasm rework and there’s a lot of stuff they either would be on the fence about and keep an eye on or didn’t think would be too strong. They perhaps underestimated or I sufficiently tested the impact of it and will change it.

If you use core mesmer without SotE you see that the change was good, likewise on mirage it’s a good change but not too strong (mirage is strong for entirely different reasons) it is only with CP and SotE that phantasms are being disproportionately effective.

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@apharma.3741 said:

@bladezero.9470 said:They just put out a balance patch. The rate of patches is fine, it's just they ignore obvious problems because have no solutions.

The mesmer rework was completely unnecessary and overall a bad change for PvP, but it wasn't designed with PvP in mind, so there we have it.

It's not a pacing issue.

It's a priorities issue.

they didn't need to even do the rework AT ALL, mesmer were COMPETELY fine for PVE how it was. They were already doing 42k DPS in raids before the mesmer over haul, so why did they even make the mesmer change in the first place? They were out dps/supporting a lot of other classes so made 0 sense for it to get buff this kitten hard.

Now for PVP they were ALREADY in a GOOD spot and where they required actually skills to play and not spam.....with the changes redone they made the class a face roll spam center for no reason at all. The class had 1 MAJOR issue during the POF release and it was Confusion mesmer was way to OP and on top of that they were able to break out of CC so easily with no issues.

WE still have Condi mirage being OP( Almost everyone ran 1 Condi Mirage during ugo), and They are still able to break out of CC fairly stupid easy with damaging players while evading. So noting was even resolved other then Confusion dps was nerf to the ground to an extent to what it was upon release. Why was this not TESTED before releasing it? Why was this Not HOT fix or revert it back to what it was before the release if it's become 10x worse then the confusion mesmer meta?

these are ALL questions that should be answered or AT least looked upon by @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 or any Anet dev in general. How are these balances really happening and why are these changes made so openly without any real Q/A?

P.S I'll rather have have OLD Confusion mesmer back rather then what we have because AT LEAST then we won't have a spam of illusion or clones per match for a node....

Spoken like someone who clearly has no concept of what poor design is.

Phantasm rework was 100% needed because if phantasms did good damage you had PvE rotations that boiled down to summon 3, auto attack and use the singular insane damage skill on the main hand. You literally never even cast the phantasms again, you just stood there auto attacking and pressing 2 off cool down, hardly good design.

In PvP/WvW very few phantasms were actually useful let alone hit players half the time and were relegated to shatter fodder. Likewise bad design as they simply weren’t useful in the slightest outside of being another clone.

Also I think you have your wires crossed or at least very late to the dps rankings, mesmer dps was equal to most classes before the rework, it was only that brief spell where they were doing 42k dps and more. You should not be using the qT website for benchmarks as it is grossly out of date.

@topic the problem is they strictly kept to a skill split balance patch which mesmer needs actual redesigns of the problem traits and skills. I do think balancing the game more or at least scaling back the power creep should be a higher priority, I don’t care if they bring out another expansion if the game has stopped being fun to play.

Bolded the part I'm replying too...

Are you able to explain why Phantasma trait is considered "OP"?

People are currently complaining "its unfair they attack twice" when before the rework, they would attack endlessly.Everyone is screaming for that trait to get nerfed instead of toning down the damage on a few phantasms, it's quite confusing.

Easy explaination.

ANet had to change a lot of stuff with the phantasm rework and there’s a lot of stuff they either would be on the fence about and keep an eye on or didn’t think would be too strong. They perhaps underestimated or I sufficiently tested the impact of it and will change it.

If you use core mesmer without SotE you see that the change was good, likewise on mirage it’s a good change but not too strong (mirage is strong for entirely different reasons) it is only with CP and SotE that phantasms are being disproportionately effective.

I use chrono but never used signet and don't always use the chronophantasma trait, I only mostly use it for Duelist bleed stacking and Mage double disrupts... (depending on build)So when the nerf comes, I hope they remember those 2 phantasms and buff them a little. I won't argue Disenchanter/Defender is broken because they attack way too hard which is why I feel like they just need a damage nerf so I hope Duelists and Mages still have a viability after the nerfs.

You should try a build using scepter/torch and sword/pistol with Phantasma trait, don't use disenchanter, defender or signet you'll see it's a really balanced build, not OP at all.Illusions/Inspiration/Chrono Grivers or Marshalls. Really fun, beats most meta mesmers too, especially the ones running Dom/Duel or Chaos/Illusions.

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@apharma.3741 said:

Easy explaination.

ANet had to change a lot of stuff with the phantasm rework and there’s a lot of stuff they either would be on the fence about and keep an eye on or didn’t think would be too strong. They perhaps underestimated or I sufficiently tested the impact of it and will change it.

If you use core mesmer without SotE you see that the change was good, likewise on mirage it’s a good change but not too strong (mirage is strong for entirely different reasons) it is only with CP and SotE that phantasms are being disproportionately effective.

This a hundred times.SotE gives you 4 freaking blocks, since it reset Echo of memory. With chronophantasma thats a wooping 8 avengers.For any other phantasm (even the utility ones) its still a 4x cast/resummon.

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