Weapons shouldnt be locked behind elite specs

For the life of the game it would probably be best if elite specs only contained skills and mechanics. Not weapons.

Traits could still give damage buffs and cooldown reductions, but this would open up many options for people to theorycraft and live out there dream characters with.

Wouldnt worry much about balance issues if youl be splitting up abilities per mode in the future either. PvE and WvW being the least of worries.

Do you Ladies and Gents think this would be a good idea? Could it push class depth even more without having much demand for more elite specs in the future? Maybe even open up new patch updates where its just new weapons while we leave expansions for more utility/elite skills and mechanics that could expand on certain weapons and abilities.

No, I think linking the weapons to the traits and overall spec improves the flavour and design of an elite spec. I think Elites would lose a lot of their specialness and uniqueness if the weapons were available to all. Personally, I find that much more important than a wider build variety.

Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

I like the fact we need to do an achievo to get the ascended weapons. It has us playing through the new new content more and in some cases it is cheaper than making an ascended weapon.editOops sorry I miss read what he was saying. I don't think I would like the idea of a scourge using a great sword or any of the other elites being able to use the other elites weapons they get with out Bing in that spec.

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

That would be a subjective view though

@Randulf.7614 said:

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:Even when the weapon for the elite spec blows?

Never seen a soulbeast use a dagger in WvW though. Or holosmith use a sword =/

Also remember, the elite spec is designed around the weapon and the trait. Whether they fail or succeed, they are going for a theme. For example, Deadeye + rifle makes sense thematically and the traits are designed around using that weapon. Without that weapon for them to build around, the traits become horribly unfocussed and generic

But only 1 trait in deadeyes line actually uses a rifle. Thats what I mentioned in my OP, you can still have particular weapons that get bonuses with traits but you could also open up the build diversity way more if you have zero limit to what is being able to be equipped and use a weapon's skills.

Elite specs could still come out that do the same thing as they do now, pick a weapon to expand on and give it extra/new effects with the trait system we have now.

I cannot see how they could make all weapons work toward the same theme within the trait system and still keep the unique vision of the spec. Plus, new weapons still need to be added over time to freshen things up, so they'd have to futureproof towards every weapon too. The current system is just much more efficient in the way it works. Remember, in principle (albei in varying degrees of success), elites are meant to almost like new classes. Specialising in one weapon that no other elite within that profession can do is what makes the elites what they are in the first place. Opening up all possibilities basically kills most of the elite since just traits and mechanics aren;t strong enough to achieve this

What exactly are you suggesting?

1) Weapon skills that come with elite pecs should be available without the elite spec?2) Weapons (the items) unlocked via elite specs should be obtainable in some other way?

I assume it is number 1? In both cases...no. Just no.

Elite specs are the way this game introducing new classes. Each elite spec is designed with certain idea in mind. If the weapons did not require the elite specs to work, this would mean that each new weapon must come with a rework of the core profession skills/talents to make it compatible with them. Otherwise they would be pointless without the elite spec anyway and we will still end up in the same situation.

"New weapons shouldnt be locked behind elite specs"

Yes, they should. We already have far to many skins that are gemstore or Black Lion Chest.

I cannot see how they could make all weapons work toward the same theme within the trait system and still keep the unique vision of the spec.

What do you mean by same theme? Its all pretty much focused around expanding the core class to begin with.

Plus, new weapons still need to be added over time to freshen things up, so they'd have to futureproof towards every weapon too.

I really dont see them bringing in any new weapons in the future since it seems they've been treadmilling with what they currently have in the game after all this time, so future proofing really wouldnt be necessary.

The current system is just much more efficient in the way it works. Remember, in principle (albei in varying degrees of success), elites are meant to almost like new classes. Specialising in one weapon that no other elite within that profession can do is what makes the elites what they are in the first place. Opening up all possibilities basically kills most of the elite since just traits and mechanics aren;t strong enough to achieve this

That would be due more to lazy design which shows the weakness in elite specs. If it cant be defined by mechanics alone then its not ready to hit the game. If these elite specs are supposed to be something special and change up a way a class is played, then just having one weapon thats tied to it isnt enough. It should change how a class plays entirely especially since most classes can use 2 weapons at a time. Added, There are elite specs that do not even perform best with their exclusive weapon and still rely more on core class weapons.

I can agree with both sides.

On one hand I'd love to be able to use the spez weapons while leveling, or with various core builds etc, or just finally have a ranged option on revenant at all etc. And this could be accomplished by effectively slightly nerf the weapon, and make that first trait in the spez line (that now lets you use the weapon) instead give back those bonuses to the weapon so it works at "full power".

On the other hand I can see why not. It's a design decision to save themselves from having to deal with potential 10+ extra weapons per class down the line. For example if Thief had 4 weapon choices in core (sb, dagger, pistol, sword), and after 5 expansion packs they would have +5 weapons, that all worked in core, it would become an even bigger nightmare to balance, and design them around not being broken with other weapons etc. By limiting to Elite Spez one per weapon, they only have to consider up against the existing Core weapons (and traits, and skills as well).

So I don't like it, but I understand it. Basically, they're proofing themselves from a logistical nightmare down the road.

@EpicName.4523 said:What exactly are you suggesting?

1) Weapon skills that come with elite pecs should be available without the elite spec?2) Weapons (the items) unlocked via elite specs should be obtainable in some other way?

I assume it is number 1? In both cases...no. Just no.

Elite specs are the way this game introducing new classes. Each elite spec is designed with certain idea in mind. If the weapons did not require the elite specs to work, this would mean that each new weapon must come with a rework of the core profession skills/talents to make it compatible with them. Otherwise they would be pointless without the elite spec anyway and we will still end up in the same situation.

1) Yes.2)No, these are pretty much just skins.

How would a rework be necessary for weapons if a elite spec's mechanics and traits are what should be defining the class?

@"Neural.1824" said:"New weapons shouldnt be locked behind elite specs"

Yes, they should. We already have far to many skins that are gemstore or Black Lion Chest.

What does this really have to do with anything?

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I can agree with both sides.

On one hand I'd love to be able to use the spez weapons while leveling, or with various core builds etc, or just finally have a ranged option on revenant at all etc. And this could be accomplished by effectively slightly nerf the weapon, and make that first trait in the spez line (that now lets you use the weapon) instead give back those bonuses to the weapon so it works at "full power".

On the other hand I can see why not. It's a design decision to save themselves from having to deal with potential 10+ extra weapons per class down the line. For example if Thief had 4 weapon choices in core (sb, dagger, pistol, sword), and after 5 expansion packs they would have +5 weapons, that all worked in core, it would become an even bigger nightmare to balance, and design them around not being broken with other weapons etc. By limiting to Elite Spez one per weapon, they only have to consider up against the existing Core weapons (and traits, and skills as well).

So I don't like it, but I understand it. Basically, they're proofing themselves from a logistical nightmare down the road.

I thought about that to, but its strange how when ever elite specs hit, its more unbalanced due to what traits and utility skills it has more then the weapon being broken itself. Sometimes its a combination of the two, but it lies more on traits used. Not sure it would really break the game, but then again I cant think of a weapon combination that would cause the game to be broken atm if you drop elite spec requirements.

@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:I can agree with both sides.

On one hand I'd love to be able to use the spez weapons while leveling, or with various core builds etc, or just finally have a ranged option on revenant at all etc. And this could be accomplished by effectively slightly nerf the weapon, and make that first trait in the spez line (that now lets you use the weapon) instead give back those bonuses to the weapon so it works at "full power".

On the other hand I can see why not. It's a design decision to save themselves from having to deal with potential 10+ extra weapons per class down the line. For example if Thief had 4 weapon choices in core (sb, dagger, pistol, sword), and after 5 expansion packs they would have +5 weapons, that all worked in core, it would become an even bigger nightmare to balance, and design them around not being broken with other weapons etc. By limiting to Elite Spez one per weapon, they only have to consider up against the existing Core weapons (and traits, and skills as well).

So I don't like it, but I understand it. Basically, they're proofing themselves from a logistical nightmare down the road.

I agree that traits+ class mechanic + new skills is largely more of a problem than most of the weapons.

But lets be fair, they have trouble balancing those as it is, what makes you think they would handle even more balancing issues with another 2-3 weapons down the line ? Or if someone figures out that they can pull zergs full of scourges with the CC from Greatsword or something (no idea, just pulling examples out of a hat).

It just adds more options and possibilities for players to break something, find more broken combos. So I can see it as a good way to save themselves the trouble for all future. Since we don't know what kind of weapons we will get with the next couple of expansions after all. I think it would be better for the game if they focused on balancing all the stuff they got, before starting adding more to that mix.

(Still want to level thief with Staff + Rifle, and still want ANY ranged attacks on Rev other than the sluggish hammer)

If a Scourge is using GS for pulls then it just means they arent using a staff or scepter and losing so much dps potential for one trick lol. I think things like that would be interesting to find out more options for what could be viable strategies or just people doing their own thing like they did in gw1. But while it could possibly cause issues, it also means it could open up solutions as well.

While i cannot think of any solutions, i cant think of any game breaking issues or combos either.

If anything it could just be for PvE and WvW since these are anything goes modes anyways. And leave SPvP for more structured rules to where things are locked behind weapons.

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:How would a rework be necessary for weapons if a elite spec's mechanics and traits are what should be defining the class?

Elite spec talent trees offer much more compared to the core ones. What is more, many of them are designed to work with the new weapons. The new utility abilities added as part of the elite specs alone add more than anything you get from the core trees. Tell me, if you could use a longbow on a core guardian, would you give up your traps in order to have a core skill tree there? No? Neither would I.

Therefore, even if you have the ability to wield certain weapons "for free", without elite spec to unlock them, you will always have the elite spec as part of your build because it is simply better. So, in order not to have that, the core talent tree must be improved/ reworked or you end up with your old build anyway.

Too much work, too much balance issues, just a bad idea in general.

@EpicName.4523 said:

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:How would a rework be necessary for weapons if a elite spec's mechanics and traits are what should be defining the class?

Wait what? What utility skills are designed to be used with weapons? Usually its one trait within an entire tree of the elite spec that actually gives you bonuses for using a weapon and that itself is a choice. And yes, I would use a longbow regardless of how viable it was with or without the traps. Its more about build diversity in what feels right over trying to min-max combinations at times.

Can you give me a example of what combination of weapons with a specific elite/core spec would be broken?

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

I cannot see how they could make all weapons work toward the same theme within the trait system and still keep the unique vision of the spec.

Heart of Thorns Epsecs filled a weakness inherent to each classes's core spec. But Path of Fire Especs reinvents them in a big way. You'd have to go out of your way, or grossly overgeneralize a specific mechanic to make the claim that PoF specs are just trying to copy other classes. However, what was being argued in that quote is that the weapons would have to be power balanced, as well as being cross compatible with other Especs, without breaking in the process. Since its non-exclusionary, "breaking" in this case means "OP as fuck". Holosmith with the Hammer, for instance, gives them access to a powerful stun lock combo, without interfering with their insane burst potential from PF mode. Deadeyes insane stealth access combined with DareDevil's staff. In fact, any class with 2 offensive Especs automatically has high potential for power stacking in all 3 modes. POF specs also have a lot of sustain options in their trait lines or mechanics, where Hot Specs were more focused on offensive/defensive trade offs for the sake of Raid comps.

I dont really see that as broken though. Hammer Holosmith would be more aggressive but at the same time it wouldnt really have the stability gains that scrapper gives it. In the end it would still have a trade off and not be to overpowered. Also with how many stunbreaks we have ingame currently I dont really see there being a stun combo with having to micromanage 2 CCs.

Deadeyes with staff would lose out on more evasions in exchange for more stealth and damage.

@Randulf.7614 said:Also remember, the elite spec is designed around the weapon and the trait. Whether they fail or succeed, they are going for a theme. For example, Deadeye + rifle makes sense thematically and the traits are designed around using that weapon. Without that weapon for them to build around, the traits become horribly unfocussed and generic

That just means the class was poorly designed, and DE is a good example... I mean Malice is useless without the Rifle, the utilities aren't even that great, so basically without Rifle, it's just there.And even with rifle it's not great.About half the elite specs don't use their elite weapons at all even.So it's not the best approach, and i do believe it would make the game much better if Weapons were separated from the traits, in fact i think most people do, given the frequency this subject pops up.

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Also remember, the elite spec is designed around the weapon and the trait. Whether they fail or succeed, they are going for a theme. For example, Deadeye + rifle makes sense thematically and the traits are designed around using that weapon. Without that weapon for them to build around, the traits become horribly unfocussed and generic

That just means the class was poorly designed, and DE is a good example... I mean Malice is useless without the Rifle, the utilities aren't even that great, so basically without Rifle, it's just there.And even with rifle it's not great.About half the elite specs don't use their elite weapons at all even.So it's not the best approach, and i do believe it would make the game much better if Weapons were separated from the traits, in fact i think most people do, given the frequency this subject pops up.

Malice is pretty crappy. A class all about quickly finishing your foe is countered by a mechanic that makes them wait to ramp up their damage. It sort of works with p/p though but thats about all I used with the class, miss back when ricochet was a thing.

I dont mind this idea. Its a different suggestion than having 2 elite specs active at the same time. The weapon for which the espec was designed for is already optimised for that spec with dmg mod and synergies so that the off elite spec doesnt make it OP at all. I rather have the option to use off spec weapons than for it to be rigidly bound the way it is now of artificial flavour. More build diversity is better imo.

Consider the theme of Engineer Sword. It is distinctly Holosmith in form and function, no different in that aspect to the Holo-exclusive utility skills.

As such it would be really weird to see non-Holo Engineers be able to use them. Same thing with Warrior’s Dagger - it very much looks Spellbreaker to the point it’d be silly to use it outside of the spec.

So Anet would have to entirely design a second set of weapon skills (ie one set for when you use them with the specialization and another without) and I don’t think it would be worth that in the end.