A war to me :" I am full zerk, it takes skills"....

-NOTE- this peculiar war was met in wvw but from time to time you meet them also in PvP and the sentiment beyond the comment seems to be widespread among the GW2 playerbase so...

It was a core warrior with Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew and I was already....https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif , then being a core warrior , he was running https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength so even more his comment made me feel like...https://media.giphy.com/media/gNDVlLPDlcPok/giphy.gif....finally I remembered what goes inside https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defense that's when I've lost it.....http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m37go7mT0Z1r9rjs4.gif.

I am not whining about warriors really because I simply don't care but...when somebody tell me :" I am full zerk", I would expect something that deal hug dmg but implode if you look at it...but something that has zerk stats with passive 1300 toughness ( toughness no armour ! ), around 1.2k heal per second plus absurd endurance vigor for even more dodge...then 2x endure pain, resistance pulsing etc etc etc etc...doesn't strike me as "full zerk"

OMG WARRIOR HAS DEFENSIVE SKILLS, OPOPOPOPOP

Warrior does have a lot in defense compaired to other classes for sure....way more then most classes with its hp and armor being high af just to start with.

i love the emotional explanation

@bLind.6278 said:OMG WARRIOR HAS DEFENSIVE SKILLS, OPOPOPOPOP

Skills? A lot is just passive facetank ability inbetween an amount of dodges even a daredevil (who at least can't facetank when get hit) would be jealous of and during random dodges and blocking and maybe a bit of kiting (with a great mobility he has ofc too, because why not have all?) when he is 1v3 he is full hp again for another round of facetanking. At least not as braindead as core guard (just to cause another heartattack by some monkeys grin) but for that more usefull in conq.... oh no wait we talk WvW so you can't even argue about conquest roles balance lame shit with uselessness in coordinated team matchups, means in 10% of the games PvP/WvW content its balanced (warrior not even there, poor warrior). Let the l2p shitstorm beginn. Action::astonished:

edit: totally forgot to mention the 2 endure pain, too much to remember here lmao

As someone who main a warrior, i say that the concept of balance is unknow for this profession lol since you are talking about WvW...i am used to roam as Guardian, sometimes core, other DH and even try a little of FB from time to time...but one day I decided to try my old warrior again...the diference is huge, I honestly felt like I was using hacks or something lol my full zerker Spellbreaker could face tank way better then my full Minstrell FB haha was way to easy to fight, 1 v X was easily doable, even 1v7 at some point(Desert BL on south spawn area where you have that tower)...the thing is that warrior is getting carried hard by stances. You dont need defencive stats when you have Stances, Shield, Greatsword and Dagger mobility, Counter and passive healing. Warrior was inicially desingned around the idea of being weak to condis and thanks to his HP pool and High armor lack any form of defencive boons, but the warrior from 2012 its not the same as this monstruosity that we have now.

@Arheundel.6451 said:Shouldnt be in 'wvw' ?

I've seen warriors standing still using the /laugh emote without stances on, and still recovering all health under the effects of posion while being hit by 3 other people.

It gets a little ridiculous some times.

Maybe they should consider changing the Passive of Healing signet to heal when hit instead over time.

as you have seen him in WvW, this is a WvW topic. a warrior is alot stronger in spvp than in WvW.a core warrior in WvW is probably roaming. in an open field were an opponent can endlessly kite a warrior is rather weak with its slow skills, so he needs some time to try hit the enemy, therefor he has these defense stuff. but overall warrior is not among the best roamers. various thief and mesmer builds as well as druids are far better.skill in WvW roaming is not needed, either people run a gimmicky cheese build or they compensate with numbers - if they dont do that they will often use the wp to spawn. you rarely will face a good opponent and gimmick builds are often better in 1 vs X against noobs. the talk about skill is huge among roamers tho, because everyone is the best. and they even feel the need to tell you that they are better than you, after you defeted them in an outnumbered fight.most of the roamers got 1-2 things they dont like in an opponents build and if an opponent utilizes it , he is a noob. for some it is guardians blockspamm, or condis in gernal, mesmers clone spamm, stealth, superior mobility or warriors passive sustain. mostly it is what their favourite toon has issues fighting with. with this mindset they often refuse to learn fighting such builds but rather think themselves superior even if they get defeated by a build using any of those.if you got issues fighting a warrior in WvW you just need to practise a bit more, they dont need to implode as they cant even touch most opponents.

oh and if he really is full zerk, i can backstab onehit him - already did that to some warriors, id say that is squishy enough.

@"Arheundel.6451" said:-NOTE- this peculiar war was met in wvw but from time to time you meet them also in PvP and the sentiment beyond the comment seems to be widespread among the GW2 playerbase so...

It was a core warrior with Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew and I was already....https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif , then being a core warrior , he was running https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strength so even more his comment made me feel like...https://media.giphy.com/media/gNDVlLPDlcPok/giphy.gif....finally I remembered what goes inside https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defense that's when I've lost it.....http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m37go7mT0Z1r9rjs4.gif.

I am not whining about warriors really because I simply don't care but...when somebody tell me :" I am full zerk", I would expect something that deal hug dmg but implode if you look at it...but something that has zerk stats with passive 1300 toughness ( toughness no armour ! ), around 1.2k heal per second plus absurd endurance vigor for even more dodge...then 2x endure pain, resistance pulsing etc etc etc etc...doesn't strike me as "full zerk"

I run full berserk no spellbreaker. Warrior has block/reflection, evades,dodges,condition removal, resistance,damage negation. Top all that regeneration from healing signet, Might Makes Right and Adrenal Health. Warrior stacks might really quickly especial with 2-3 people in the area. You get 50% your endurance back from Might Makes Right and you have 25 stacks instantly which is ~2500 healing....ohh Might Makes Right has no cool down so if your getting might your getting heal each time....even my dodges Reckless Dodge hits people aoe with no cool down. I just dodge around and damage people oh by way if your full berserk......I have hit people with a dodge just dodge for 7k wish had screen shot even if your dodging and hitting for 1-3k still adds up quickly....I am by far not the best warrior but come on....

In WvW, warriors are nuts at the moment because of PvP passive nerfs not making it to WvW. They are absolutely carried by Defy Pain and Last Stand in WvW.

I made a thread in the WvW forums about bringing the passive nerfs to WvW as well, Anet responded and said that they will consider it but are concerned about the amount of AoEs in WvW and how having weaker passives will make large fights less fun. Of course the comments responding to that were "nerf AoEs then". I'm more concerned in how utterly different the game modes are because of the passive nerf split, warrior was 20 seconds of power hate if they take Defy Pain, Endure Pain, Last Stand and Balanced Stance (a common setup these days). The uptime in PvP is similar, but the longer cooldowns means the warrior can't consistently rely on Last Stand over and over again during a long fight.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've seen warriors standing still using the /laugh emote without stances on, and still recovering all health under the effects of posion while being hit by 3 other people.

It gets a little ridiculous some times.

Maybe they should consider changing the Passive of Healing signet to heal when hit instead over time.

I think this is beyond an exaggeration, please show me a warrior standing still being attacked properly by 3 decent players recovering health let alone under poison debuff. And it was nerfed already, considerably, it's not even close to ticking enough to nullify attacks. It's more of a soft regen when you are kiting/escaping.

Most warriors in WVW are frontline SBs that don't go full zerk. Besides full zerk doesn't mean you should explode if sneezed on, it just means you have to play a lot more careful and pick your burst moments. Counting dodges, watching their skill animations etc. Also healing signet isn't even always used, under heavy condi pressure there are better options.

I am not denying their massive toolkit for survivability, but people are going overboard. They've been toned down a lot.

A few comments in here...

First, more to the title thread of this... As with all classes, there is a difference between a good warrior, and a bad warrior. And that will have an impact on how glassy the warrior can get. I will definitely say, that any warrior running the Defense traitline is under no way shape or form a glass cannon. But the overall damage a full zerker warrior will put out isn't as high as the damage another class might put out in the same gear. (This is better demonstrated in PvE, where its much more about the DPS. But the same holds true for burst damage as well.)So, yes. A warrior running zerker gear isn't a sneeze on and die sort of class. But it also does less damage than most classes running that gear. Don't look only at survival to say whether or not something is balanced when running full zerkers. Look at the damage too, when compared to other classes.The next part, about the skill... I consider myself either an upper average warrior, or a low good warrior. I've helped out new warriors though, and I very much so actively remember back when I was a bad player. Surviving is a huge struggle for the players who aren't very good. The main place this comes in at, is in landing bursts. A good warrior will very rarely miss a burst, giving good Adrenal Health uptime. A bad warrior will be missing them much more, and as such, finds himself dying frequently. Full Counter makes things a lot easier, but for a core warrior, being good at landing the bursts makes a pretty big difference.

Another thing to keep in mind... As people have said, this is WvW warrior you fought, not an SPvP warrior. Balance is very different when it comes to zergs and roaming. WvW's balance is focused on the former, not the latter. And in zergs, warriors do need those survival traits in order to be effective. They need to frequently leap beyond the support of their zerg, and survive for long enough to make it back again. Without those traits, they would explode, and not be particularly effective.There's a reason why SPvP and WvW have difference versions of skills and traits. SPvP balance revolves around the small scale fights, whereas WvW revolves around the large scale fights.

Warrior is currently quite balanced, in SPvP and WvW. In WvW, it's a class with a skill which has a huge impact on the meta, for sure, but high impact doesn't equal unbalanced. It requires good coordination to make truly effective in a zerg. SPvP... It's a solid, versatile class. But by no means OP.

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:A few comments in here...

First, more to the title thread of this... As with all classes, there is a difference between a good warrior, and a bad warrior. And that will have an impact on how glassy the warrior can get. I will definitely say, that any warrior running the Defense traitline is under no way shape or form a glass cannon. But the overall damage a full zerker warrior will put out isn't as high as the damage another class might put out in the same gear. (This is better demonstrated in PvE, where its much more about the DPS. But the same holds true for burst damage as well.)So, yes. A warrior running zerker gear isn't a sneeze on and die sort of class. But it also does less damage than most classes running that gear. Don't look only at survival to say whether or not something is balanced when running full zerkers. Look at the damage too, when compared to other classes.The next part, about the skill... I consider myself either an upper average warrior, or a low good warrior. I've helped out new warriors though, and I very much so actively remember back when I was a bad player. Surviving is a huge struggle for the players who aren't very good. The main place this comes in at, is in landing bursts. A good warrior will very rarely miss a burst, giving good Adrenal Health uptime. A bad warrior will be missing them much more, and as such, finds himself dying frequently. Full Counter makes things a lot easier, but for a core warrior, being good at landing the bursts makes a pretty big difference.

Another thing to keep in mind... As people have said, this is WvW warrior you fought, not an SPvP warrior. Balance is very different when it comes to zergs and roaming. WvW's balance is focused on the former, not the latter. And in zergs, warriors do need those survival traits in order to be effective. They need to frequently leap beyond the support of their zerg, and survive for long enough to make it back again. Without those traits, they would explode, and not be particularly effective.There's a reason why SPvP and WvW have difference versions of skills and traits. SPvP balance revolves around the small scale fights, whereas WvW revolves around the large scale fights.

Warrior is currently quite balanced, in SPvP and WvW. In WvW, it's a class with a skill which has a huge impact on the meta, for sure, but high impact doesn't equal unbalanced. It requires good coordination to make truly effective in a zerg. SPvP... It's a solid, versatile class. But by no means OP.

Just: Who cares about zergfights? Op talked about smallscale roaming/duels where indiviual skill rly starts to count

@bravan.3876 said:

Just: Who cares about zergfights? Op talked about smallscale roaming/duels where indiviual skill rly starts to count

Hmm, I suppose I didn't make my point particularly clear in that bit, did I? I was mostly trying to say that WvW warriors don't require a nerf, since they're about where they need to be at for large scale combat, even if it bumps them up a few notches for small sided combat. Because WvW balance needs to be focused on large fights. As opposed to being balanced for small fights--which is what SPvP does. (Not saying that WvW should completely ignore small fights, but where there's a conflict in what's needed for balance changes, large fights should be a higher priority than small fights.)

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:

@bravan.3876 said:

Just: Who cares about zergfights? Op talked about smallscale roaming/duels where indiviual skill rly starts to count

Would be nice if all warriors stay in the large fights only then in WvW ;D

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've seen warriors standing still using the /laugh emote without stances on, and still recovering all health under the effects of posion while being hit by 3 other people.

It gets a little ridiculous some times.

Maybe they should consider changing the Passive of Healing signet to heal when hit instead over time.

3 people hitting one warrior using emotes and still not doing damage?

You really think healing signet should be changed because of 3 bad players?

Super top secret strat to kill warriors 1v1: Don't let them land burst skills on you.

Move to wvw forums, wars a joke in pvp

@bravan.3876 said:

@"The Not so Evil Overlord.6305" said:A few comments in here...

First, more to the title thread of this... As with all classes, there is a difference between a good warrior, and a bad warrior. And that will have an impact on how glassy the warrior can get. I will definitely say, that any warrior running the Defense traitline is under no way shape or form a glass cannon. But the overall damage a full zerker warrior will put out isn't as high as the damage another class might put out in the same gear. (This is better demonstrated in PvE, where its much more about the DPS. But the same holds true for burst damage as well.)So, yes. A warrior running zerker gear isn't a sneeze on and die sort of class. But it also does less damage than most classes running that gear. Don't look only at survival to say whether or not something is balanced when running full zerkers. Look at the damage too, when compared to other classes.The next part, about the skill... I consider myself either an upper average warrior, or a low good warrior. I've helped out new warriors though, and I very much so actively remember back when I was a bad player. Surviving is a huge struggle for the players who aren't very good. The main place this comes in at, is in landing bursts. A good warrior will very rarely miss a burst, giving good Adrenal Health uptime. A bad warrior will be missing them much more, and as such, finds himself dying frequently. Full Counter makes things a lot easier, but for a core warrior, being good at landing the bursts makes a pretty big difference.

Another thing to keep in mind... As people have said, this is WvW warrior you fought, not an SPvP warrior. Balance is very different when it comes to zergs and roaming. WvW's balance is focused on the former, not the latter. And in zergs, warriors do need those survival traits in order to be effective. They need to frequently leap beyond the support of their zerg, and survive for long enough to make it back again. Without those traits, they would explode, and not be particularly effective.There's a reason why SPvP and WvW have difference versions of skills and traits. SPvP balance revolves around the small scale fights, whereas WvW revolves around the large scale fights.

Warrior is currently quite balanced, in SPvP and WvW. In WvW, it's a class with a skill which has a huge impact on the meta, for sure, but high impact doesn't equal unbalanced. It requires good coordination to make truly effective in a zerg. SPvP... It's a solid, versatile class. But by no means OP.

Then he needs to get more personal skill and stop bursting into EP or block. This isn't an issue where warrior is OP, this is an issue where bad players continue to ignore what's happening around them and expect to win because they used skills in some random order.

OP wants PvP to be about as difficult as PvE. That's all. That's it.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've seen warriors standing still using the /laugh emote without stances on, and still recovering all health under the effects of posion while being hit by 3 other people.

It gets a little ridiculous some times.

Maybe they should consider changing the Passive of Healing signet to heal when hit instead over time.

No. Because no one player should not be able to stand still down nothing and still outheal any 3 other players with passive effects without even having to use the defensive stances.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:I've seen warriors standing still using the /laugh emote without stances on, and still recovering all health under the effects of posion while being hit by 3 other people.

It gets a little ridiculous some times.

Maybe they should consider changing the Passive of Healing signet to heal when hit instead over time.

It's more effective to give better advice and knowledge to those 3 players then to just say warrior Healing Signet is OP because he stood still and emoted. For instance tell those 3 players to switch to some damage gear instead of rolling Minstrels, Nomads, Magi, Clerics, etc. If this is Spvp setting (which it should be considering the sub-forum) they really need to just improve.

@bravan.3876 said:

@bLind.6278 said:OMG WARRIOR HAS DEFENSIVE SKILLS, OPOPOPOPOP

It's funny you anticipate being told that you got outplayed. I mean, what else do you expect people to say? You lost a fight when it was three against one. At that point it doesn't matter how OP the class is. No class is or ever has been so OP that they can win 1v3 against equally skilled competition playing at a similar level. Congratulations on all of your success, but you must have gone in overconfident if you allowed a warrior to beat you when there were three of you and only one of him!

Healing Signet is not OP. There is hardly ever any skill that is OP on its own. There's sometimes a skill that is a key element to an OP build, and the build can be toned down by altering just that one skill, but that would not do for this case, because Healing Signet is not the problem, and it's not a key skill in a problematic build. It just happens to add up to other effects stack creating too much passive sustain.The passive healing from Healing Signet just happens to be something that could be changed to reduce the overall healing for the least impact to other builds that do not rely on overstacking passive healings. If it healed when hit instead over time, a warrior would not able to stand still and heal too much by doing nothing, as people could switch tactics to drop conditions and hit less often, use strong attacks instead many small hits.Passive effects that can be active at all times are just not good.

It's just doesn't make any sense that someone can go around alone permanently going back from 80% health to 100% in one tick just from passive healing without having to bring any Healing Power at all. Have you ever seen a warrior consider bringing Mender or Avatar stats? Of course not.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

No. Because no one player should not be able to stand still down nothing and still outheal any 3 other players with passive effects without even having to use the defensive stances.

Don't try to normalize abnormal situations. I just ran the math, and quite frankly, if what you're saying happened, it's such a bizarre situation that it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. I've shown my work, but I'll put a TL;DR at the end here.

In order to find if this was even possible, I went to the skill tool, and maximized the amount of armor and healing power a warrior could have. I went with full Cleric's gear, since the focus of what you said was healing. It's possible Minstrel's gear would be a better roadmark, but, eh, I didn't feel like calculating whether or not the extra armor from Minstrel's made up for the less healing power. So, here's what I've got the Warrior in: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAseRgMdEAAAIA-jVxNwAtV/hrSwXK/gqPAw+DAA-wI used Rune of Dwayna in order to make it possible for the warrior to have Regeneration going on at the same time as he has three stacks of Adrenal Health, and Healing Signet, while still maximizing the healing power. One stack of Adrenal Health does 2942 healing in 15 seconds. So, 2942 3, and then divided by 15 gives healing per second. So, 587 healing per second. Healing Signet heals 460 per second with this build, and Regeneration does another 325. This comes out to the Warrior regenerating 1372 health per second. The Warrior's total armor is 3411.Now, hitting it, I figured a decent crap damage benchmark would be a Minstrel's Firebrand with a mace. I assumed the random damage from the mace would always be 1000, which is the average. The Firebrand's power would also be 1000, so our equation will be the individual skill's damage co-efficient1000*1000, which will then be divided by the Warrior's armor of 3411. The mace autoattack takes two seconds, so, I calculated the damage of the entire chain hitting this warrior, and divided by 2.

Looking up the co-efficient for each skill on the Wiki gives us this: (100010000.8/3411)+(100010001/3411) + (100010001.4/3411) = 938 damage in one chain. Dividing by 2 to get the average damage per second gives 469 damage. Multiplied by 3 Firebrands gives us 1407. Which is more than the Warrior's healing. And this isn't even factoring in the burning that the Firebrands would be doing from Justice.

TL;DR

A Warrior specced into doing nothing but passively regenerating isn't able to out heal even three Minstrel's Firebrands autoattacking with maces, without Justice triggering every five attacks. Mithran's claims to this being a plausible situation are completely without merit.