Since Monks, Revenants, Norn, and now Dervish don't actually commune, did Ritualist or Ranger?

edit: Since faith, echos, lineage, and Tyrian powers can be used to create the semblance of contact with channel mist entities, were actual spirits ever channeled/bound/summoned to intercede in Tyria? Or were Rangers/Ritualists invoking powers that faked intercession?

could you elaborate?

@derd.6413 said:could you elaborate?

Were specific spirits channeled/bound/summoned to intercede in Tyria? Or were Rangers/Ritualists drawing powers from echos/forces to create the appearance of intercession?

edit: Ex do you call upon Li Ming's soul in the Underworld using her ashes. Or are they properly treated ashes that allow you to invoke purity using a variety of sources?

I would not be very surprised if there wasn't a strong connection between Revenant echoes, Ritualist spirits/ashes, and possibly even dervish Avatars. Perhaps all of these things were channeling echoes, especially since we can see that dervishes are still using the Avatars of the Gods even though they are long gone and no longer available to channel their power to a dervish, but perhaps an echo of them from the Mists can.

Well, we know that ritualists could summon spirits. After all, most of the spirits in Tahnnakai Temple were summoned by ritualists, just as the Envoys controlled by the Oracle of the Mists, a ritualist. But for what the spirit weapons and ashes did, it could honestly go either way. It would make sense if they were just channeling the Mists' echoes of those individuals, as it would explain how a whole team of ritualists could carry the ashes of the same individual if you want to go that deep into "mechanics = lore", or even a single ritualist having both ashes and a spirit weapon channeling a single individual. Plus, the spirit weapons and the ashes were more about what those people represented, which mirrors the revenant legends.

Rangers we were never sure what exactly they communed with, given a lack of clarity over what "nature spirits" are - but if they are tied to the forest spirits and sea spirits the Kurzicks and Luxons (respectively) were interacting with, then these are spirits of the world very similar to the Spirits of the Wild and the spirits kodan talk about (like the spirit of Fire in S3E3).

I would agree with @"Narcemus.1348" that dervish avatars seem similar to revenant legends, and the dervishes are likely "channeling the legend of the gods" more than anything.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, we know that ritualists could summon spirits. After all, most of the spirits in Tahnnakai Temple were summoned by ritualists, just as the Envoys controlled by the Oracle of the Mists, a ritualist. But for what the spirit weapons and ashes did, it could honestly go either way. It would make sense if they were just channeling the Mists' echoes of those individuals...

But the individuals had no powers. Can faith magic empower an echo?

Rangers we were never sure what exactly they communed with, given a lack of clarity over what "nature spirits" are - but if they are tied to the forest spirits and sea spirits the Kurzicks and Luxons (respectively) were interacting with, then these are spirits of the world very similar to the Spirits of the Wild and the spirits kodan talk about (like the spirit of Fire in S3E3).

Seems legit. Does Ele just work with dumb spirits that require nothing?

I would agree with @"Narcemus.1348" that dervish avatars seem similar to revenant legends, and the dervishes are likely "channeling the legend of the gods" more than anything.

Since Amala channeled Joko's power into creating Balthazar's Form, I just assumed avatars were arcane Denial spells. Copying form and abilities was already possible. And Spellbreaker and Mirage accomplish Wind and Earth to a degree. I guess Joko as a Scourge is a good source of fire magic.

I don't see the gods becoming echoes when they aren't of mists.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Well, we know that ritualists could summon spirits. After all, most of the spirits in Tahnnakai Temple were summoned by ritualists, just as the Envoys controlled by the Oracle of the Mists, a ritualist. But for what the spirit weapons and ashes did, it could honestly go either way. It would make sense if they were just channeling the Mists' echoes of those individuals...

Sure they had power, just like Shiro, Ventari, etc. did.

Well, it's less Ventari and more what Ventari represents. And if revenants can channel a person's philosophy and writing to utilize magic, why couldn't they for others?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Seems legit. Does Ele just work with dumb spirits that require nothing?

That's equating all elements to being the work of spirits, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Since Amala channeled Joko's power into creating Balthazar's Form, I just assumed avatars were arcane Denial spells. Copying form and abilities was already possible. And Spellbreaker and Mirage accomplish Wind and Earth to a degree. I guess Joko as a Scourge is a good source of fire magic.

I don't see the gods becoming echoes when they aren't of mists.

The gods are indeed from the Mists, more so than any Tyrian is given they've lived in the Mists for over a thousand years and traveled through them for even longer.

IIRC, the line from the dev was that Amala used her faith in Joko to create those avatar forms, which to me sounds more like she was using faith magic to channel an echo of the Mists. Basically using guardian magic to perform the same effect that revenants manage. But that's just my interpretation of it.