[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Suggestion] Balancing Condition Damage

Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭

Hi,
I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.
This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with
protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.
Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

Thanks for you attention
(sorry for my english)

<13

Comments

  • EUmad.7645EUmad.7645 Member ✭✭

    why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And yet again someone is angry at necromancers and wants all condition builds gutted across the board because of it...

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not angry about necro and condition damage , but more on the fact that is no fun at all and it rely on 1 attribute instead of at least 2or 3. It's funny to see how a robutness vitality condi will destroy you so easily with random dodge and tanking your dps , because he has 30k hp and more than 3k armor which is more than my frontline gardian. Anet has always explain their change by the reason of «balancing» but do nothing about this ...

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    BG

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

    It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

    Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

    What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    Condies arent op. Take arcdps, set dps to incoming, click individually on players. You'll see how much damage they are taking from which source. Just because you saw 10 condies on you and died 2 seconds after, doesnt mean you got killed by condies. Only 2 of them (torment and burn) are doing some impactful damage, everything else is just movement/utility based.

    There's a reason why scourges who play with cele/grieving have a lot more damage output than viper/tb ones.

    They are not in them self op (all though with in the condi dmg effects they are much definitely not equal) its the means of applying them that are op or the skill that use them as there main dmg type. If your applying many stacks at once of different types of condi and able to hid the condis from clears (that are way UP atm) as well as able to deal with boons that counter such dmg then you have a real balancing problem.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    "I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

    That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:
    why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

    I would be happy with that tbh. I hate playing and fighting against condi builds because it just feels so cheap, poorly balanced, and spam to win.

    I agree. And I don't like playing as condi, either - I only have experience playing condi with 5 builds and none of them were as engaging as power:

    Chill Shout Reaper pre-PoF = no need for a target, spam shouts, marks, shroud4 on cooldown
    Scourge = no need for a target, spam marks, scepter 3, torch 4, f1-f5 on cooldown
    Burn DH pre-staff change = slight need for target if you felt like using LB auto, spam staff auto, CF, and babygates on cooldown
    D/D Thief = 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, dodge, 3, heal, dodge, 3, dodge /sleep
    Mace/Shield/LB Berserker Pre-nerf = Only need target for mace f1, otherwise spam LB skills on cooldown...

    It is ridiculous how much less focused you need to be while playing stuff like this and still be very effective. At least you Hammer Rev's have to aim your stupid CoR's...

    Yea its also really boring to play heh. But I try to adapt and stay up to date so it changes over time as we get new balance updates. I really miss playing Vanilla well Necro :)

    BG

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

    It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

    Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

    What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

    Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

    BG

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    "I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

    That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

    But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

    Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

    It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

    But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

    It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

    Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

    What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

    Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

    Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

    A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

    Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    "I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

    That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

    But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

    Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

    It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

    But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

    Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

    It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

    Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

    What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

    Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

    Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

    A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

    Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    "I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

    That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

    But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

    Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

    It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

    But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

    Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

    It shouldn't be rare. BUT, the table does need tweaks. Stability and swiftness should both go to either cripple or chill. Not immobilize.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Stop adding in counter clears like winds of disenchantment would go a long way. I really do not think anet is at the wheel when it comes to balancing.

    Stop standing in the big bubble before spamming your skills maybe?

    First its not important if your in the bubble or not as an ele its about the other ppl your trying to support. Ele condi clear already lower end and requires a lot of investment of both a GM and many skills to make it viable applicant of reg. Where one class with out any condis of its own that made for power dmg and counter boons not boon application effect for some reason makes condis stronger as a means of counters to condi clears.

    It simply dose not fit the class of a spell braker and realty seems like an over sight on Anet end. That is what all these buffs and nerfs to condis boon healing classes etc.. its like anet just simply throw things at the wall and see what happen after the fact and then balance. The thing is ppl are going out of there way to apologize for the UP effect and OP effects painting a bad pic of what going on.

    Condis are still doing way too much dps and the counters of clears are weak even so much of a problem that though anet work has created more problems with condi by what they added in it means of effects spell winds of disenchantment stopping clears from boon application as well as making boons convent into powerful condis that simply get in the way of cleaning real dmg condi and other counter condis are left weaker as conversion of condis in them self are weaker then clears.

    What we have now is means of countering boons has become more condi dmg burst and means of condi "hard counters" are now more likely to help condi dmg classes.

    Thats like saying we shouldn't have blinds and blocks because of Cleansing Ire's cleanse on hit effect. It's called counterplay. Just because it is bad for your class does not mean there is a problem with the skill itself. WoD is very annoying to get trapped in, but that is the whole point, you are supposed to be vulnerable while inside and take more damage.

    Well no what we are talking about is support effect hitting other ppl that is different then self support or tankly support. There no other counter aoe effect like this in the game and it simply dose not fit the class that has it. If it was on a necro or a mez yes it would fit (maybe null field should stop boons) but on a class that only made to do power dmg it dose not sit right.

    A hard counter to condi is clears and resistances. A lot of ppl would say these are not true hard counters and there realty no hard counter to condis over all in gw2 (that what 3 years ish of buffing with no nerfs would do) but to take away these counters by stopping boon application or even convicting them into condis to cover over the dmg is taking it too far.

    Winds of disenchantment need to let you apply the boon for .1 sec to get the effect of application and nothing else and boon corruption needs to be much harder to get i would go as far as to say only a few skills should be boon corruption and what we have now should be simple boon strip.

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Martimus.6027 said:
    "I don't like something that I have experienced, so therefore I want it removed from existence despite other people's enjoyment of it."

    That is kind of what has happens with the means of countering condi. Condi it self has been getting nothing but buffs for the last 3 years? (i forget when they started to buff it but for the most part it has not stopped.)

    But actually the skill split and recent CL skill changes over the last 4-5 months have been centered on taking longer for condis to ramp up in the amount of damage, and at least one (and I thought 2) of the scourge shade skills was changed to a boon strip from a boon corrupt.

    Now that isn't to say it's enough, but it was a shift to the right direction.

    It also signaled that they were moving away from nerf hammers and towards more tweaks.

    But like most things, even tweaks will be called devastating by some, and huge buffs by others.

    Sadly last update of boon tables of corrupt was a major buff to condi classes over all. So much so that it comply removed a counter to condi from the game. All corrupt from necro but say 2 - 3 skills need to be boon strips. Any thing less then that your going to have significant problems. Boon corruption should be one of the rares effects in the game.

    It shouldn't be rare. BUT, the table does need tweaks. Stability and swiftness should both go to either cripple or chill. Not immobilize.

    It realty should be rare because its a +1 and -1 effect vs a boon strip and realty most skill being just a +1 OR -1 not a double out put effect. Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption should be about all the corruption in the game.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • @Hoodie.1045 said:

    It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

    That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

    That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

    ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality and toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • @Turk.5460 said:

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

    That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

    ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality and toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

    And the other thing doesn't need Vitality or Toughness in many cases because of how much active mitigation, mobility, and other escape methods (Stealth) is at their disposal.

    At this point it's just tribalism. If you aren't going to at least extend an olive branch that Shatter Mes and Power Thief builds can detonate you out of nowhere with minimal effort, then you just aren't interested in actual balance.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @Hoodie.1045 said:

    It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

    That's what players who like conditions say about power builds (Shatter Mes, most Warrior builds, any non-condi Thief build). It's ultra easy to say the other guy doesn't have to try, but that door swings both ways.

    ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ One of these things is not like the other - one of these things can be successful in gear that gives both vitality and toughness ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫

    And the other thing doesn't need Vitality or Toughness in many cases because of how much active mitigation, mobility, and other escape methods (Stealth) is at their disposal.

    At this point it's just tribalism. If you aren't going to at least extend an olive branch that Shatter Mes and Power Thief builds can detonate you out of nowhere with minimal effort, then you just aren't interested in actual balance.

    Sure, the combo's to achieve a burst from power generally require little effort, but still more than condi bursts. On top of that, condi builds generally have FAR more room for error should their burst be mitigated, or if their opponent counter-attacks immediately. There is no contest for who has it easier in terms of survivability and misplays...

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • @Turk.5460 said:

    Sure, the combo's to achieve a burst from power generally require little effort, but still more than condi bursts. On top of that, condi builds generally have FAR more room for error should their burst be mitigated, or if their opponent counter-attacks immediately. There is no contest for who has it easier in terms of survivability and misplays...

    Which condi bursts are you talking about in particular? Like, what buttons are being pressed to result in the burst, and how many stacks of what conditions do you get for landing each button press?

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭

    I dont say nerf all damage condition , it's a way to play different from power damage, but i blame it not on this way to deal damage but on the fact that damage relies on 1 attributes instead of 2 at least or 3 as power build. Actually if u compare a Power , robutness vitality build vs a condi robutness vitality build xD PRV is pretty useless because of it relies on a certain amount of attributes (precision / ferocity) to be really efficient.

    I'm blaming the fact that we have no counter or alternative versus condi tank raids or zergs because of permapressure/permapushing , the only alternative we got is to play the same thing and it's actually no fun at all.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    Sure, the combo's to achieve a burst from power generally require little effort, but still more than condi bursts. On top of that, condi builds generally have FAR more room for error should their burst be mitigated, or if their opponent counter-attacks immediately. There is no contest for who has it easier in terms of survivability and misplays...

    Which condi bursts are you talking about in particular? Like, what buttons are being pressed to result in the burst, and how many stacks of what conditions do you get for landing each button press?

    If you don't already know the answer then your opinion on effort has no place in this conversation.

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  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Condi damage is fine now, it may even have been nerfed too much.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Cogbyrn.7283Cogbyrn.7283 Member ✭✭

    Not to beat a dead horse, but to drive the point about power builds also looking for that easy-mode instant gratification, a Thief did a simple Steal+Backstab combo on me just this evening for a total of 12k damage (2.5k Steal, 9.5k Backstab). I don't recall any stacked Vulnerability or anything, and though I still don't have the gear I want, my overall Defense was at about 2500 to 2600 on my Ele.

    WvW is an absolute circus of burst, so singling out one damage type over another just feels silly to me. When I take 12k damage instantly in the midst of a fight, it doesn't really matter to me that the Thief is full Zerk and would probably die in 2 hits if I ever landed them, and being full Zerk for some classes has a small fraction of the risk of others. Thieves are an extreme example, and I've always thought Thief was the most poorly designed class in the game, but burst is burst. It hasn't changed in the past 5-6 years, it won't change drastically now.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As someone who heavily played condi builds (currently play as DPS), its not 100% the damage itself, but partly some class's condi sustain. Without mentioning any classes by name, some can stack up fast consistently to the point where if you are not 110% smart about your clears (more micromanaging) then its useless.

    One form was nerfed/balanced pretty quick, which strange enough is a newer condi build/class while others should be looked first, however it is what it is and im there to fight regardless.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2018

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @EUmad.7645 said:
    why not delete all condition builds and let only power ones ? it is simpler and faster. remove every condition from games and transmute every weapon on power. Would you be happy with that ?

    ...because it just feels so cheap, poorly balanced, and spam to win.

    You should be playing another game, because that largely applies to the entire combat in this game.

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2018

    Condi is no different from power, i.e - the issue is certain classes/builds are OP, not that condi is OP in itself.

    For example if you are having trouble against a p/p condi engy then the problem is between your seat and the keyboard, to kill pretty much anything they have to hit you at least a couple of times with pistol 4 skill (blowtorch) which is one of the harder skills in the game to land (contrary to this delusion that condi classes can simply spam, as opposed to holosmith where virtually everything does good damage and the range of "melee" is so big it is difficult to miss)

    If you think that 3k armour gives them super defences, then think again, go play power mirage, power warrior/spellbreaker, etc and see classes that are far stronger defensively, far more mobile, etc, whilst doing far more damage.

    So what you should learn is that it is not a "condi" issue, it is a class design/balance issue, where certain classes/builds are OP e.g condi mirage, so no different from power builds.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2018

    @Sylosi.6503 class design is made towards players that are less than casuals... they need strong builds to make then feel they are acompleshing somehitng in this game.

    It is a bad class and some awfull skills design from the developers, but that is what gw2 is made for, if u take that unbalance or bad design game wont offer nothing for casuals or bad players to thrive trough the game.

  • Emerz.5913Emerz.5913 Member ✭✭

    Condition damage is strong partly because the only ways to deal with it are to reduce condition duration and have condi clears (which can be worthless if someone can just sneeze on you again and give you more conditions with your condi clear on cd). Toughness increases armor, which reduces direct/power damage but not condition damage... which is something they should consider trying. If toughness can can offset some condition damage, it will give players more freedom with their builds as they won't need to focus so much on condi clear/sustain.

    Been there. Done that.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    OP: The word you are searching I guess is called TOUGHNESS, not robutness xD

    Aside of that ..

    Condition/Boons need to be completely rebalanced, and reworked, thats the only real way to solve the whole problem.

    Reduce the Effect Spam by bringing down these 28 Effects of Condtions and Boons together DOWN TO 16 by reducing the effectzs from both sides from 14 to 8 and we will be a HUGE STEP closer to combat balance in this game and removal gameplay mechanics for conditions and boons becoming able again to handle all this effect spam mess that Anet fabricated with this game since HoT.

    After that remove finalyl buff food from WvW, this stuff has nothign to search in WvW, Buff Food is PVE content!!! and should be also PvE only content, because as pve only content would make that also possible to give the game much better, more interesting, more fun and more diversive Buff Food effects, without having automaticalyl to fear and worry about those effects making WvW literally unplayable ...

    Resistance needs to get removed a boon and turned instead into a new own defensive DUAL EFFECT ATTRIBUTE with the effect of decreasing the Condition Damager you suffer on and improving the player's Break Bar Efficiency, so that you become signicantly harder to CC, to give this game also finally an end to its obnoxious cc spam fest gameplay in WvW!! so that players have with this attrtibute finally a way to make themself become more immune to Condition Damage, which Toughness doesn't reduce amd become more immune to CC effects, so that they dont last on you so long and you also cant become so easily perma stunned, like it is possible right now, due to resistance increasing basically with a more powerful becoming Player Break Bar your chances, that you cant get immediately stunned again ,after you have been cc'ed.
    This way becomes Resitance a much more meaningful and inmpactful defensive attribute that will be important for players to have in competitive play like PvP or WvW, forcing players to put points into there, if they want to increase their survivability, leaind this way automatically in less points beign used into DPS attributes, so that players will deal automaticalyl lesser damage, if they have then to put more points into their defensive attributes, if they want to survive longer.

    This game needs finally for better class balancing dual effect attribute, to give this game more defensive and suportive attribute effects,m which can also help in reducing some obsolete boons, like Quickness, like Vigor, if those get rather reworked to become instead secondary attribute effects, which affect a character's attack speed or, endurance regeneration efficiency.

    rebalance finalyl better the efficiency of Vitalitys, increasign the amount of HP each Vitality Point gives, would also drasticalyl help on balanmcign this game, making finalyl Vitality more important and impactful, if finally 1000 Vitality wouldnt be only lousy loughable 10000 HP, but instead 25000 HP !!!
    This way would finally last battles also longer ridiculous 1 hit kills would become sigificantly less likely so that battles make again more fun for all!!

    Remove attributes from gear, so that the attributes aren't bonded anymore to endless gear grind just to receive your optimal wished attribute setting, makign battles in WvW also more balanced, if players dont have to grind for gear and get upscaled their to max level like in pvp, so that everyone has there maximum stats, without the need to grind for any gear just to be able to play the build you want

    Rebalance the base health values of all classes insividually, instead of still used the 2012er outdated 3 class type health system, which pigenonholes the health values of the classes way too much ,than is good actualyl for the class balance, where individually balanced health values for all classes would make much more sense.
    Under the current balance for example makes it absolute no sense at all, that mesmers, especialyl Mirages, have significantly much more health than thieves, thousands of endless spammable clones, can become also stealth, dodgy as like thieves ect and all this only, because threy have lesser armor values, but can completely negate this out by having tons of boons permanently, whiel the thief has no own access to many of the defensive boons, like stability, protection, resistance ect.

    Conditions in and of itself alone are absolutely not the ROOT PROBLEN.
    The real root problem of this game is its 6 years long ignored completely outdated combat system mechanics, which aren't at all anymore in harmony with the taste of the game, and its added content that anet implmented over time to the game, which are all not part of these outdated gameplay mechancis and the overall initial game balance state that the game had at the begin for which thoser new added effects, e-specs ect were all not designed for around..

    Anet follows sadly the thinking a it seems, that they can permanently add new mechanics, new conditions, new boons ect. to the game, without ever thinking about it, that they need also to change and adapt and to rebalance the old initial gameplay mechanics they are using from the games combat system...

    You cant add permanently new mechanics to a combat system and expect from the old mechanics of dsaid combat system, that they keep on running always perfectly fine and balanced together with all the new added mechanics, as if nothing has been changed or added at all.
    When combat effects get too much and everythign gets to spammy, then its wiser to REDUCE the amount of effects to compress the amount of effect spam to the lessest number possible, to help this way making balancign the game again easier, than to continue addign always only new things to the problem...

    This is like somebody making himself a coffee who keeps on adding then after that permanetly more and more sugar to the coffee, that knows not when the point is reached, where you should better stop adding more sugar to the coffee.
    Somewhen is simply the point reached, where you have no drinkable coffee anymore, but just only a cup full of sugar that you can't drink anymore ...


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
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  • Oozo.7856Oozo.7856 Member ✭✭✭

    "Either way, this has been a GW2 topic since the game released."

    When the game was released poison and burning didn't stack, there was no such thing as torment and dire/trailblazers gear didn't exist. ;)

  • Oozo.7856Oozo.7856 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    Best way to "balance" condition damage:

    Step 1: Nerf condition damage in PvP/WvW by 80-90%. Problem solved.

    Now I can already hear the whines of the losers that can't be bothered to learn how to play their professions and rely too much on conditions. They'll go out of their way to defend it, saying that it requires skill when we all know just how BS that it.

    Using conditions as utilities, like poison to reduce healing, weakness to reduce incoming damage, blind to not waste a dodge, chill to kite enemies, those kinds of conditions are fine. It's just sad that most players are just a bunch of spoiled brats that want instant gratification, they just want things to be given to them immediately so they can feel good about themselves without working hard to accomplish anything.

    People that want instant gratification should play power thief or power mesmer and oneshot people coming out of stealth. I really don't think I'm working that hard when I steal for 3K damage into vault for 16K and instantly down someone coming out stealth.

    Condition and power damage (from certain classes) are both broken in this game.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oozo.7856 said:
    "Either way, this has been a GW2 topic since the game released."

    When the game was released poison and burning didn't stack, there was no such thing as torment and dire/trailblazers gear didn't exist. ;)

    Conditions were also completely irrelevant in almost every facet of the game.

  • Oozo.7856Oozo.7856 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Oozo.7856 said:
    "Either way, this has been a GW2 topic since the game released."

    When the game was released poison and burning didn't stack, there was no such thing as torment and dire/trailblazers gear didn't exist. ;)

    Conditions were also completely irrelevant in almost every facet of the game.

    And then dire gear was introduced and several condition builds suddenly became top roamer and group builds. ;)

    The dumbest thing though was letting burning stack (along with poison and torment). Dots should not be ticking for over 4K+ damage regardless of how much condition damage you have. It's stupid.

    Actually, my memory was off a bit. Here is footage of a condition warrior before poison and burning stacked without dire gear. Looks pretty strong to me. That needed to be buffed? ;)

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Clipped montages are anecdotal. Could find a video of anyone doing something similar on a power build its not really proof of anything.

    You can use the winky face all you want doesn't change the reasons why those conditions were changed to stack.

    Also if you get hit by several strong abilities why shouldn't you take large amounts of damage? Why is getting hit by 3 power attacks and taking 12k fine but getting hit with 3 strong conditions attacks and taking similar damage over 4-6 seconds , regardless of how high the ticks go, an issue ?

  • Oozo.7856Oozo.7856 Member ✭✭✭

    They were changed to stacks because of PvE, not PvP. Condition classes were more balanced back then than they are now. Power damage is also too high.

    The main reason why conditions should be doing less damage is that power has to sacrifice a lot of survivability to do that kind of damage, while condition can build very tanky and still to lethal damage. Basically, condition builds are good for people who are bad at using their active defensive skills to avoid attacks. The big problem is when you have a good player running a high vitality and high toughness condition build that is good at using active skills to avoid attacks. That type of player is nearly unkillable 1v1 against most opponents.

  • Oozo.7856Oozo.7856 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Clipped montages are anecdotal.

    Here is nearly 13 unedited minutes of a condition necro and condition healing support engineer

    Again, this was before poison and burning stacked. Condition builds were fine in PvP before Anet went full r-kitten with stacking conditions (which seriously broke PvP balance for the sake of PvE.

  • Hyper Cutter.9376Hyper Cutter.9376 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oozo.7856 said:
    "Either way, this has been a GW2 topic since the game released."

    When the game was released poison and burning didn't stack, there was no such thing as torment and dire/trailblazers gear didn't exist. ;)

    Dire was introduced about a year after the game launched (to replace one of the stats using Magic Find after that stopped being a gear stat), almost two years before they removed the stacking limits on conditions.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Redponey.8352 said:
    Hi,
    I'll just bring some ideas to try balancing condition damage especially in WvW but even in PvP and maybe PvE

    I want to be clear as possible. Actually condition is not the issue itself but the fact that Condition damage is based itself on 1 attributes (condition damage) and it doesnt really need other attributes to be efficient, so people are running robutness vitality and xx.

    Ah... Another thread filled with misconceptions...

    The Conditions damages a profession can dish out depend on 3 stats:

    • Condition damage (which is obvious)
    • Crit chance (because quite a few conditions are applyed on crit)
    • Expertise (because the lenght of these condition need to be extended to reach a proper level of over time damage, else they disappear to quickly to even build some pressure)

    The last condition balance patch clearly took these fact into account reducing intensity of damage by tinkering with the number of stacks applied by each stack and compensating this loss by a lengthen duration of each stack.

    This way to play condition damage is breaking the balance between power and condition, because when you want to play power based build , you have to increase sufficiently precision and ferocity to be efficient, whereas condition damage doesnt need 3 attributes to be efficient. As we all know, robutness and vitality totally counter damage based on power coupled with

    Playing soldier stat give you the same level of damage and protection than a dire condi build, the damages are just applied differently.

    protection (buff) and food whereas robutness vitality and condition doesnt have real counter and playing condition doesn't need to be risky.

    Here you touch the real issue which is the condition counterplay even if somehow you seem still full of misconceptions. There is counterplay to conditions. Be it resistance, food/runes that reduce condition duration on self, condi cleanse or even traits that reduce cndition damage received. There is undeniably counterplay to condition damages.

    The issue would be more that it's not obviously built in your gear stats like it is for power damage. Initially, I believe that anet thougth that vitality was the counter to condition, however, this was something that might have been relevant pre HoT but it's no longer the case.

    Ideally, the solution would be to give a condition damage resilience to toughness which would make power and condition damage even in regard of stats.

    To try to change that without implementing new attributes (that would be a lot of work), condition damage may be decrease a lot on basic damage output and duration, and it would be increase a lot with ferocity and expertise (can be increase more than now). As ferocity apply as multiplicator of critical damage, it could be apply on condition damage.

    That would be the worst possible solution because if you let conditions damage deal twice or more their initial effect it would be hundred time worse than the current situation, not for the condi build but for everyone on the receiving end.

    Implementing that should change all the way, people are playing condition damage and running condition damage build will need more attentio^n but would be more rewardfull.

    Another way to balance this it to re-update all runes or foods base on reduction of condition duration and double their reduction of condition, as they were before. because actually the maximum that we could have is -45% condition duration and i have tested it in WvW and PvP, that not enought to be efficient in thoses game modes. Because of the increase of this reduction, player that are running condition based build would but some expertise in their build to be efficient and decrease their defensive attributes as robutness and vitality.

    Removing boon duration and condition duration foods from WvW might be a good solution, still condition damage seem to bother quite a lot of player in PvP as well without food so, I still think that rewrking toughness a bit to also reduce condition damages would be the "better" solution.

    Thanks for you attention
    (sorry for my english)

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    @Oozo.7856 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Clipped montages are anecdotal.

    Here is nearly 13 unedited minutes of a condition necro and condition healing support engineer

    Again, this was before poison and burning stacked. Condition builds were fine in PvP before Anet went full r-kitten with stacking conditions (which seriously broke PvP balance for the sake of PvE.

    Game is not balance when people cant be carried, and gets amazingly balanced and fun when people start to be carried.
    Reason every body wants to nerfs other's classes w/o wanting to nerf some broken gameplay on theirs.
    Anet increased the spam rate of condis and made some skill stacking, but also made some classes to cleanse, imo balance here is not that condis are OP but the awfull skill design on some classes to complete carry casual players with it.

    And when u want to make bad players look like good or top players while they are beign carried with some class, the real good players actually will be on AFK mode while playing that class.

    Real problem are ANet dev's.. and who is doing the crappy balance iterations if they really have any.

  • Redponey.8352Redponey.8352 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    All i remember that before we got great fight with stress and some strategy instead of pushing pushing and zerging

    Some footage from Hardcore guilds but with casual guild we got the same stress's fight !! and it's was fun!! it was a great time :'(

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    @Redponey.8352 said:
    I'm not angry about necro and condition damage , but more on the fact that is no fun at all and it rely on 1 attribute instead of at least 2or 3. It's funny to see how a robutness vitality condi will destroy you so easily with random dodge and tanking your dps , because he has 30k hp and more than 3k armor which is more than my frontline gardian. Anet has always explain their change by the reason of «balancing» but do nothing about this ...

    1 attribute is a fallacy, and I believe you are being disingenuous by saying that. A frontline guard with less than 3K armor is NOT a frontline guard, and you want to talk about a class facetanking damage? SB can facetank a single condi Scourge all day.

    A condi build has to have toughness and vitality as well as condition damage to even hope to compete with a power build. Without toughness and vitality the condi build dies before they have half a chance to ramp their damage. Power builds do NOT NEED to ramp damage as they hit hard with every attack. Therefore a power build stacks power/crit/ferocity to do max damage.

    Power build: Power/crit/ferocity
    Condi build: Condi/Tough/Vit

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