Theorys on the Pale mother

So my current theory is that she was just a high level minnion if mordremoth. Glint has show us that when a minnion is freed from a dragon they can create other minnons free from the dragon. So when the pale tree was freed from mordremoth by ronan and ventari she just kept making more minnons, only to free them by using the dream.

Isn't that very close to what we know already? It seems the Pale Tree was supposed to be closer to one of Mordremoth's Blighting Trees, but something caused her to be free of the Elder Dragon's corruption. The real question is what freed her from Mordremoth in the first place?

We already know that the Blighting Trees are basically the still-corrupted form of what the Pale Tree (and quite possibly the Tower of Nightmares given what we see and know of it) is. They're dragon champions given that they produce a large amount of minions.

That said, Ronan and Ventari couldn't have freed the Pale Tree from Mordremoth's control, they had no magical influence on her at all and all four known ways to "cleanse" dragon corruption requires magic. The four methods being the ritual used on Glint, the cleansing ritual Trahearne used, the many exotic magics fed to Mawdrey, and the rose quartz used for cleansing kralkatite ore.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:We already know that the Blighting Trees are basically the still-corrupted form of what the Pale Tree (and quite possibly the Tower of Nightmares given what we see and know of it) is. They're dragon champions given that they produce a large amount of minions.

That said, Ronan and Ventari couldn't have freed the Pale Tree from Mordremoth's control, they had no magical influence on her at all and all four known ways to "cleanse" dragon corruption requires magic. The four methods being the ritual used on Glint, the cleansing ritual Trahearne used, the many exotic magics fed to Mawdrey, and the rose quartz used for cleansing kralkatite ore.

Unless Venturi knew the cleansing ritual that Trahearne used, but why would Ventari cleanse something that he wouldn’t know was corrupted in the first place.

Another thing, I wished the Heart of Thorns had were avatars for the Blighting Trees, however they just seem mindless, with out thought or identity.

It's likely that they don't know how to do so, or believe it to be a waste - why interact with something who's only view of you is to see your death and your only view of them is as fertilizer after all? The Pale Tree only creates the avatar in order to communicate with non-sylvari with more ease, as it gives the other races a face to put to the tree they're talking to.

Though it certainly would have been neat and further confirmation of the situation.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:It's likely that they don't know how to do so, or believe it to be a waste - why interact with something who's only view of you is to see your death and your only view of them is as fertilizer after all? The Pale Tree only creates the avatar in order to communicate with non-sylvari with more ease, as it gives the other races a face to put to the tree they're talking to.

Though it certainly would have been neat and further confirmation of the situation.

Did they ever explain in Heart of Thorns, why Mordremoth wanted Trahearne? Was it to potentially to gain access to the Pale Tree in her weakened state, break her barrier of protection and take over all Sylvari?

No motive was explicitly stated, but the vision from Aurene('s egg) showed him making an army out of the whole (remaining) Destiny's Edge. Most likely, it'd be that Trahearne and DE were powerful enough that mordrem copies of them (properly made) would be more powerful than other mordrem.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:No motive was explicitly stated, but the vision from Aurene('s egg) showed him making an army out of the whole (remaining) Destiny's Edge. Most likely, it'd be that Trahearne and DE were powerful enough that mordrem copies of them (properly made) would be more powerful than other mordrem.

Seems like a lost opportunity for a climax that has some severe consequence if Mordremoth isn’t stopped there and then.

Maybe the Forgotten did something about it?

It'd fit to their kind of acting, I mean Glint, previously Glaust- the powerful minion of Kralkatorrik was chosen to lead the whole world into the magic balance-- replace the Elder Dragons with another powerful, ready to sacrifice themselves for the greatest good characters.

Glint was chosen to give the births of as many dragons as possible. I guess the first step was to take advantage on Kralkatorrik and defeat him, what after long years of preapring was failed by the Destiny's Edge, because the Forgotten, at least Glint didn't tell them how important it was- we found out the truth in Path of Fire using the vision crystals in one of the chapters.

I guess the Forgotten used their power to cleanse the corruption from the Pale Tree's seed, the seed was found by Ronan and Ventari, but they didn't (I guess) see who left them.

Also Glint was famous of her visions, I guess the Forgotten gave the Pale Tree this ability.

Also look at the Pale Tree vision about the Glint's Egg... Is it a coincidence?

Like the Pale Tree was also meant to be cleansed and take a part in a new balance....

Just as Glint was...

Could this mean that Pale Tree can replace Mordremoth, and Aurene Kralkatorrik?

Also we need somebody that can replace the Death spectrum. It may not seem to be a best way, but what if Joko will replace Zhaitan? He controlls death, he can rise the dead. I don't even know why I'm saying this, but he, if he would work harder on his villainy side and be something much bigger on the picture, but at the cost of his loyalty, I wonder if he would accept this...

Can the villain change into a good one? or at least a better one? That'd be the first time ANet would go this way... And its pretty common in the terms of story writing.

I think this myth of " Ventari's tablet, carved by him prior to his death and placed at the Tree's roots, forms the basis for her own philosophy and that of her sylvari." is just a myth to explain their Dream side, but what denied it was that they aren't mindless, the sylvari aren't following the teachings of Ventari as one. Faolain and the Soundless denied that the tree is perfect because it was feed by the goodness around it...

It sounds like a fairly tale, and Faolain knew it, the Nightmare Court knew it, they wanted to find the freedom, the truth, and I think the truth is that the Pale Tree was cleansed by the Forgotten, and it's destiny was to replace the Elder Dragon.

Mordremoth I guess knew it, so he attacked the Pale Tree, but it survived, and Mordremoth perished. The Dream was just too strong, and the symbol of Trahearne who followed so almost mindlessly the Ventari's teachings showed us something, that this chapter of Sylvari's story is over.

It's time for them to find out why they could resist the creator's voice and why they had a choice, and thanks who the Pale Tree has a will to be so powerful.

The Forgotten is my answer.

I had an Odd Idea.. that Ventari's Tablet was made from a Stone Provided by a Prophet... Say Glint, as a Cleansing Device.. But i Don't know.

We are indirectly shown how to cleanse one of mordremoth's minions without a spell like the one used by the forgotten, by nurturing a seed, resulting in Mawdrey.

We find sources of magic all over the world, and slowly feed them to the mordrem seeds. The combined magics from all over the world create a 'wide spectrum' magic like pure magic, instead the corrupted magic attuned to their own spectrum dragons use. We basically replace "Corrupt Mind & Corrupt Plant" magic with with "Pure All" magic.

This was most definitely a process similar to the one that cleansed the Pale Tree: pure sources of magic slowly replacing the dragon's magic within the minion, feeding it as it grows.

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:We are indirectly shown how to cleanse one of mordremoth's minions without a spell like the one used by the forgotten, by nurturing a seed, resulting in Mawdrey.

Indeed, but...

We find sources of magic all over the world, and slowly feed them to the mordrem seeds.

Ventari never does this.

And importantly, one "source of magic" is Foefire magic, which is directly related to the gods just like the divine torch and forgotten's magic, and another is literally the Mists, similarly related to gods and Forgotten. Not to mention that, just like Trahearne's cleansing ritual comes from another Elder Dragon, one is destroyer magic.

So we have three that hold similarities to two of the methods otherwise used to free dragon minions. But most importantly, all four magics fed to Mawdrey are inaccessible to Ventari and Ronan.

This was most definitely a process similar to the one that cleansed the Pale Tree: pure sources of magic slowly replacing the dragon's magic within the minion, feeding it as it grows.

Even ignoring the accessibility part, I don't think this can be considered the case, because otherwise we'd be seeing dragon minions purified left and right due to their absorption of magic. Particularly individuals like the Megadestroyer and the Destroyer Crab that Gorr enlarged during the asura PS, who were both fed a high concentration of magic. Not to mention we get things like the Blighting Trees and Mordrem Ley-line Leecher constantly feeding off of the ley lines.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:We are indirectly shown how to cleanse one of mordremoth's minions without a spell like the one used by the forgotten, by nurturing a seed, resulting in Mawdrey.

We find sources of magic all over the world, and slowly feed them to the mordrem seeds.

This was most definitely a process similar to the one that cleansed the Pale Tree: pure sources of magic slowly replacing the dragon's magic within the minion, feeding it as it grows.

This might have some tie in to Malyck and his tree. We aren’t even given much information on the seeds in the cave guarded by creatures.

The interesting part is what recently was said about Mordremoth being the jungle. People often see a difference between a minion and the actual corporeal dragon. But Zhaithan allready showed us that it is more complecated. some of his minions where his eye and others his mouth. We also know from the theory off all, that by destroying all elder dragons you destroy Tyria itself.So When they say that Mordremoth is litterally the jungle, it is also everything that grows from it. Or atleast an aspect.

But that is the fysical form. Mordremoth is the dragon of plant and mind. This means one doesnt go without the other. It is the corruption caused by him that makes a dragon minion. After his head, his minions and his mind was defeated, Mordremoth was fully destroyed when his final corrupted minion was also destroyed. So those who never listened to the voice and gave in, should not be considered minions. So same goes for the pale tree.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:We are indirectly shown how to cleanse one of mordremoth's minions without a spell like the one used by the forgotten, by nurturing a seed, resulting in Mawdrey.

We find sources of magic all over the world, and slowly feed them to the mordrem seeds.

This was most definitely a process similar to the one that cleansed the Pale Tree: pure sources of magic slowly replacing the dragon's magic within the minion, feeding it as it grows.

When growing mawdrey we are given all sorts of items and make the most of them. That doesn't mean other similar methods with other sources of magic would not work.If we look at the leyline map, the pale tree is sitting on top of one of the largest gatherings of magic. Whether it's magic she gathered or magic that was already there in a leyline hub it doesn't matter for this, because she's still on top of a leyline, and leylines carry one of the most pure forms of raw magic know.

Ronan may have had all the time in the world to sit by the tree and see it grow on top of a leyline, but the commander is always on the move, so we planted the seed in a clay pot, and had to replicate the process with a more 'portable' version.

Chak filter out death magic when hey consume it, but dragon minions do not seem to do that. Most of them appear to corrupt magic absorbed to make it more like their master's and be attracted to sources of magic more similar to their master's. Mouths of Zhaitan gobble up the magic and send it to Zhaitan. The Sovereign Eye sat on top of the Artesian waters attuning the waters and poisoning the land to make it work for Zhaitan.Icebrood catch anything they can and corrupt it to their core, if we can believe kodan, even the soul gets corrupted, leaving nothing, impossible to revert.Kralkatorrik also seems to do something similar to anything that gets branded.And if you see Mordremoth's vines and roots, they have a purplish glow flowing from them even when they ar stuck to leystone sucking magic, showing the magic is being turned into to Mordremoth's juice instead being kept as raw ley magic.

What we seem to see with Mawdrey is that If you grab a dragon minion and keep caring for it and nurturing it, instead changing the magic to be more like the dragon's magic, it will be more likely to keep it pure. So we'd eventually see the minion change color, and more of their magic would look brighter and more rainbowy like Glint's and Aurene's crystals and the Pale Tree's petals, and eventually break free from the dragon's yoke. With Mawdrey, the purplish glow of Mordremoth's magic has turned into a gentle pinkish hue, and most of its glow is a bright white, showing she has been cleansed.

Mawdrey and Aurene are the only dragon minions we've nurtured, and Glint and a Chiken the few we've seen cleansed. So unless we find someone who has managed to cleanse more minions, we need more data.

@"Arden.7480" said:Maybe the Forgotten did something about it?

It'd fit to their kind of acting, I mean Glint, previously Glaust- the powerful minion of Kralkatorrik was chosen to lead the whole world into the magic balance-- replace the Elder Dragons with another powerful, ready to sacrifice themselves for the greatest good characters.

Glint was chosen to give the births of as many dragons as possible. I guess the first step was to take advantage on Kralkatorrik and defeat him, what after long years of preapring was failed by the Destiny's Edge, because the Forgotten, at least Glint didn't tell them how important it was- we found out the truth in Path of Fire using the vision crystals in one of the chapters.

I guess the Forgotten used their power to cleanse the corruption from the Pale Tree's seed, the seed was found by Ronan and Ventari, but they didn't (I guess) see who left them.

Also Glint was famous of her visions, I guess the Forgotten gave the Pale Tree this ability.

Also look at the Pale Tree vision about the Glint's Egg... Is it a coincidence?

Like the Pale Tree was also meant to be cleansed and take a part in a new balance....

Just as Glint was...

Could this mean that Pale Tree can replace Mordremoth, and Aurene Kralkatorrik?

Also we need somebody that can replace the Death spectrum. It may not seem to be a best way, but what if Joko will replace Zhaitan? He controlls death, he can rise the dead. I don't even know why I'm saying this, but he, if he would work harder on his villainy side and be something much bigger on the picture, but at the cost of his loyalty, I wonder if he would accept this...

Can the villain change into a good one? or at least a better one? That'd be the first time ANet would go this way... And its pretty common in the terms of story writing.

I think this myth of " Ventari's tablet, carved by him prior to his death and placed at the Tree's roots, forms the basis for her own philosophy and that of her sylvari." is just a myth to explain their Dream side, but what denied it was that they aren't mindless, the sylvari aren't following the teachings of Ventari as one. Faolain and the Soundless denied that the tree is perfect because it was feed by the goodness around it...

It sounds like a fairly tale, and Faolain knew it, the Nightmare Court knew it, they wanted to find the freedom, the truth, and I think the truth is that the Pale Tree was cleansed by the Forgotten, and it's destiny was to replace the Elder Dragon.

Mordremoth I guess knew it, so he attacked the Pale Tree, but it survived, and Mordremoth perished. The Dream was just too strong, and the symbol of Trahearne who followed so almost mindlessly the Ventari's teachings showed us something, that this chapter of Sylvari's story is over.

It's time for them to find out why they could resist the creator's voice and why they had a choice, and thanks who the Pale Tree has a will to be so powerful.

The Forgotten is my answer.

Also I wanna add that maybe that's why The Omadd's machine showed the Pale Tree in the center.

@mercury ranique.2170 said:The interesting part is what recently was said about Mordremoth being the jungle. People often see a difference between a minion and the actual corporeal dragon. But Zhaithan allready showed us that it is more complecated. some of his minions where his eye and others his mouth. We also know from the theory off all, that by destroying all elder dragons you destroy Tyria itself.So When they say that Mordremoth is litterally the jungle, it is also everything that grows from it. Or atleast an aspect.

But that is the fysical form. Mordremoth is the dragon of plant and mind. This means one doesnt go without the other. It is the corruption caused by him that makes a dragon minion. After his head, his minions and his mind was defeated, Mordremoth was fully destroyed when his final corrupted minion was also destroyed. So those who never listened to the voice and gave in, should not be considered minions. So same goes for the pale tree.

That appears to be the case at least in some way. The dragons would not just their bodies, but the magic within them too. The magic within those corrupted could actually be a part of the dragon taking over them, or at least part of the dragon's own magic. So killing the Mouths and Eyes of Zhaitan may have done more than just cutting sources of sustenance and information, it be like actually cutting bits and pieces off the dragon. Like cutting off the stomach of a starfish when it pops it out of its body to to digest food. If we consider the characters that can feel magic like sylvari mentioning that the land feels dead as an actual feeling rather than a personal feeling, it could be that the dragon actually spread its own power through the land. So when we cleanse the artesian waters, we did not just cut off a source of magic, we may have actually 'poisoned' for him all that magic spread through the land, damaging him.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:When growing mawdrey we are given all sorts of items and make the most of them. That doesn't mean other similar methods with other sources of magic would not work.If we look at the leyline map, the pale tree is sitting on top of one of the largest gatherings of magic. Whether it's magic she gathered or magic that was already there in a leyline hub it doesn't matter for this, because she's still on top of a leyline, and leylines carry one of the most pure forms of raw magic know.

Which ley line map do you refer to because there's only two afaik, and neither reach as far east as The Grove.

But "pure raw magic" has shown that it has no cleansing effect on minion. It needs a catalyst, such as rose quarts as proven in Daybreak's Branded Research achievement chain. It's the catalysts which are important, by all appearances, and we don't know what we used as such with Mawdrey since we basically played trial and error with that.

But again, I must stress that nothing we do, or parallels to, is ever even remotely hinted about with Ronan and Ventari. All they did was plant the tree and talk to it. By the very fact that it was passive during Eye of the North indicates that whatever cleansing happened to the Pale Tree, happened before that time as even hatchling Mordrem would be mobile and hostile.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Chak filter out death magic when hey consume it, but dragon minions do not seem to do that. Most of them appear to corrupt magic absorbed to make it more like their master's and be attracted to sources of magic more similar to their master's. Mouths of Zhaitan gobble up the magic and send it to Zhaitan. The Sovereign Eye sat on top of the Artesian waters attuning the waters and poisoning the land to make it work for Zhaitan.Icebrood catch anything they can and corrupt it to their core, if we can believe kodan, even the soul gets corrupted, leaving nothing, impossible to revert.Kralkatorrik also seems to do something similar to anything that gets branded.And if you see Mordremoth's vines and roots, they have a purplish glow flowing from them even when they ar stuck to leystone sucking magic, showing the magic is being turned into to Mordremoth's juice instead being kept as raw ley magic.

By your very argument here, the Pale Tree should have been corrupting that ley line magic, not being purified by it.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:What we seem to see with Mawdrey is that If you grab a dragon minion and keep caring for it and nurturing it, instead changing the magic to be more like the dragon's magic, it will be more likely to keep it pure.

No, what we see with Mawdrey is that there's more than one way to cleanse dragon corruption. It's a long established plot point that dragon minions have no free will, they are literally incapable of having their own wants and dreams. This is the horror behind being corrupted. When one speaks of "cleansing" or "purifying" dragon corruption, it is primarily about giving that minion a will of its own.

The power of love and friendship, literal or metaphorical, would have zero effect on dragon minions. Even mordrem, as shown in the conversations between Faolain and Caithe, or the other mordrem guard - and they weren't even corrupted but rather coerced.

It wasn't "simply magic" that purified Mawdrey, but either the specific sources used for that magic, or the combination of magic, the combination of any magic and specific artifact, or specific magic and specific artifact (likely one of the latter two given Branded Research).

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"mercury ranique.2170" said:The interesting part is what recently was said about Mordremoth being the jungle. People often see a difference between a minion and the actual corporeal dragon. But Zhaithan allready showed us that it is more complecated. some of his minions where his eye and others his mouth. We also know from the theory off all, that by destroying all elder dragons you destroy Tyria itself.So When they say that Mordremoth is litterally the jungle, it is also everything that grows from it. Or atleast an aspect.

But that is the fysical form. Mordremoth is the dragon of plant and mind. This means one doesnt go without the other. It is the corruption caused by him that makes a dragon minion. After his head, his minions and his mind was defeated, Mordremoth was fully destroyed when his final corrupted minion was also destroyed. So those who never listened to the voice and gave in, should not be considered minions. So same goes for the pale tree.

That doesn't really seem to be the case, based on the fact that Zhaitan and Mordremoth are now dead despite hundreds of risen and mordrem still being alive.

The Mouths and Eyes of Zhaitan are unique cases and minions (and the lack of seeing one in Siren's Landing may be related to this), and though there may be more such special cases, other minions do not show any signs of being "part" of the Elder Dragon.

Besides we know that "Mordremoth is the jungle" is false, given Matthew Medina's statement in the AFC which basically stated he was the Mouth, the vines, and maybe a bit more, but not "all of his minions" or "all of the jungle".

Besides, based on this arguement of yours, wouldn't the Pale Tree and all sylvari be part of Mordremoth, and Glint, Vlast, and Aurene be part of Kralkatorrik? Yet we know this is not the case. They're all separate entities that utilize the same domain of magic.

I thought the pale tree was just too far away to be influenced by Mordremoth. This was because Ronan carried her seed outside of his AoE.

@DarcShriek.5829 said:I thought the pale tree was just too far away to be influenced by Mordremoth. This was because Ronan carried her seed outside of his AoE.

Zhaitan corrupted Mazdak from his tomb in central Kryta (northern Gendarran Fields). Svanir was corrupted over Drakkar Lake despite Jormag being far to the north, while Jormag and Drakkar were sleeping.

We've seen minions be very, very far away from their Elder Dragon and show no sign of being less controlled. Whether they're icebrood in The Funhouse of Metrica Province, risen in Fireheart Rise and Plains of Ashford, or mordrem in Iron Marches.

Mordremoth did seem to have a distance requirement for sending out his call to sylvari, but sylvari are a unique case due to their state of being born with free will and their connection to the Dream (which based on Malyck and the White Stag, is not only not limited to Mordremoth's minions, but not all of Mordremoth's minions are connected to it).

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@DarcShriek.5829 said:I thought the pale tree was just too far away to be influenced by Mordremoth. This was because Ronan carried her seed outside of his AoE.

I also believe that the devs have stated that Mordremoth's corruption worked differently than the other dragons. One thing that was different is that he couldn't corrupt sentient races other than sylvari which were especially bred to be his minions.

Finally unless I misunderstand you, you seem to imply that Malyck was part of the dream. He wasn't.

@"DarcShriek.5829" said:Your examples are all well and good, except we're discussing Mordremoth, not Zhaitan nor Jormag.

To quote myself "or mordrem in Iron Marches."

Every Elder Dragon takes a different preference for how to corrupt, and it does seem there are some actual restrictions for what an Elder Dragon can corrupt (based solely from the confirmation in the recent AFC that Elder Dragons couldn't, for some illogical reason, corrupt corpses until they got Zhaitan's sphere of death), but having a distance for the enslavement of will is not one, especially for Mordremoth.

As I said, the only thing that distance seems to influence with Mordremoth is how far his call goes to sylvari specifically - not

@"DarcShriek.5829" said:One thing that was different is that he couldn't corrupt sentient races other than sylvari which were especially bred to be his minions.

To quote the Pact Commander during Eir's memorial: "No. Everyone was vulnerable. Anyone, sylvari or not, could be attached to one of their blighting trees. The trees created duplicates of people to serve Mordremoth. It was awful."

And to use more specific examples, both Mordrem Trolls and Mordrem Wolves are corrupted animals. This was even reaffirmed by Scott McGough in regards to the trolls.

@"DarcShriek.5829" said:Finally unless I misunderstand you, you seem to imply that Malyck was part of the dream. He wasn't.

Him not being part of the Dream was my point, actually. Malyck's lack of connection proved that it isn't something innate for sylvari and mordrem, while the White Stag's connection proves that things not tied to Mordremoth could be connected to it. At the same time, we are told that it was through the Dream that Mordremoth sent out his call to sylvari (the only thing apparently hindered by distance).

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:When growing mawdrey we are given all sorts of items and make the most of them. That doesn't mean other similar methods with other sources of magic would not work.If we look at the leyline map, the pale tree is sitting on top of one of the largest gatherings of magic. Whether it's magic she gathered or magic that was already there in a leyline hub it doesn't matter for this, because she's still on top of a leyline, and leylines carry one of the most pure forms of raw magic know.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Chak filter out death magic when hey consume it, but dragon minions do not seem to do that. Most of them appear to corrupt magic absorbed to make it more like their master's and be attracted to sources of magic more similar to their master's. Mouths of Zhaitan gobble up the magic and send it to Zhaitan. The Sovereign Eye sat on top of the Artesian waters attuning the waters and poisoning the land to make it work for Zhaitan.Icebrood catch anything they can and corrupt it to their core, if we can believe kodan, even the soul gets corrupted, leaving nothing, impossible to revert.Kralkatorrik also seems to do something similar to anything that gets branded.And if you see Mordremoth's vines and roots, they have a purplish glow flowing from them even when they ar stuck to leystone sucking magic, showing the magic is being turned into to Mordremoth's juice instead being kept as raw ley magic.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:What we seem to see with Mawdrey is that If you grab a dragon minion and keep caring for it and nurturing it, instead changing the magic to be more like the dragon's magic, it will be more likely to keep it pure.

My argument says that while there seems to be several ways to cleanse minions, they likely boil down to one key factor: replacing the dragon magic within the minion with non-corrupt magic, while keeping them from corrupting the magic.

The methods to do either thing would vary, but it would be basically the same two things.

Nurture the pale tree, let it absorb pure magic naturally, you get a non-corrupt mordrem tree.The ritual that cleansed Glint was used as a base to replicate the process to cleanse a risen chiken, and it used a Bloodstone, a battery that stores raw magic. Just enough to jolt Zhaitan's magic out of the chiken and allow the spell from keeping it from going back to that.And with mawedrey we keep feeding it lots of magical stuff. Of course while cleansing the pale tree they could not have access to all those sources of magic, but the pale tree didn't produce also magical offshoot called "Pale Tree II" that creates random loot when you feed it magic.Different methods may have different results, but they have something in common: Turning or replacing the dragon-attuned magic to a non-corrupt magic.

Dragon minions would usually corrupt the magic they absorb, but the nurturing process kept The Pale Tree and Mawdrey from following their 'programming', while the forgotten spell seemed to directly free Glint's mind much faster.

So yeah. "talking to it" could have done just that.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@"mercury ranique.2170" said:The interesting part is what recently was said about Mordremoth being the jungle. People often see a difference between a minion and the actual corporeal dragon. But Zhaithan allready showed us that it is more complecated. some of his minions where his eye and others his mouth. We also know from the theory off all, that by destroying all elder dragons you destroy Tyria itself.So When they say that Mordremoth is litterally the jungle, it is also everything that grows from it. Or atleast an aspect.

But that is the fysical form. Mordremoth is the dragon of plant and mind. This means one doesnt go without the other. It is the corruption caused by him that makes a dragon minion. After his head, his minions and his mind was defeated, Mordremoth was fully destroyed when his final corrupted minion was also destroyed. So those who never listened to the voice and gave in, should not be considered minions. So same goes for the pale tree.

That changes nothing. The relation between dragons and minions change for each dragon. When Primordus was under the effects of Taimi's machine, all destroyers got knocked out, but all risen and mordrem were still active no matter what happened to their masters. We haven't seen destroyers and icebrood after they went to sleep, so we don't know what they are doing. We heard about mordrem, but we've only seen risen.With remaining mordrem and risen we have two behaviors: Scatterd and confused, then still following the dragon's will.

There's still something all minions have in common: they are pumped full of the dragon's magic.We know this thanks to the Inquest experiments on them. We also see that minions forcibly injected with different dragon magics stop behaving like dragon minions and go wild.

If we look at Siren's Landing, weaker risen are more passive and easy to deal with, but the stronger or higher ranking the minion was while Zhaitan was alive, the more it keeps at it, particularly Kingpings. If all risen were the same, merely under the control of the dragon, they would all act the same when the dragon is dead. But they do not.We can talk with one of the Kingpings during one of the collections, and he says "I am free. Free to continue dispensing Zhaitan's wrath to the world".The more powerful or high ranking a minion is, the more of their master's magic is in them.And here's the kicker: magic isn't just 'energy' filling a body like liquid filling a bottle. Magic can be arranged in structures or configurations of some sort. Magical effects and spells are result of these.The more of Zhaitan's magic a minion had, the more they keep acting for Zhaitan's will ever after their death. So this magic could not be just like a 'radio' connecting to the dragon and letting him take over minions. It can't just be something forcing the minion to act or some sort of reprogramming, that would also affect all minions equally. Orders end, control fades. Even if the kingpings were acting on Zhaitan's last order, that should have affected other risen too. Yet not all unchained risen act the same.The mordrem guard in Rata Novus says "My strings were tugged and my body acted while I watched. A passenger to the dragon's breath, its whispers." and later when talking with Faolain we learn this wasn't just the dragon mind-controlling them, but taking over them, making them part of him, like one hive mind, mordrem guard considere themselves to be Mordremoth too.This shows that the one thing all dragon magic has in coming is that it isn't just controlling minions. When it corrupts, it changes its victims to become something more like an actual part of the dragon.

But destroyers and icebrood that had plant and death powers were not going wild like inquest experiments.What could be the difference? The original dragon being dead? That could not be it, or there would be no risen still following the will.So something must have been done to the magic before putting them on the minions.We know thanks to Spencer that magic can be converted.Just like we break down nutrients when we digest it, magic consumed from artifacts, living things, or other dragons would be unraveled and turned into raw power. Mouths of Zhaitan likely did this with magical artifacts to supply Zhaitan with power without also sending the effects.

So when Mordremoth took in Zhaitan's magic, and then when Jormag and Primordus took in Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic, either the magic leaked lost the will of the dragon and this will can only exist contained within minions, or the other dragons had their own means to distill the magic for their own use.

As for "my argument". Not at all. My argument is based on that cleansing a minion is likely done by getting rid of the corrupt magic inside of them by means such as replacing it or converting it, then keeping them from corrupting the magic again or replenish themselves with more corrupt magic, so they take in and hold only non-corrupt magic.If you do that, the magic inside the dragon is no longer the dragon's, and can't control the minion, the minion can no longer be part of the dragon.At most, a cleansed minion could feel the dragon or hear their commands, or be at risk of being 'reconverted' back into a minion if they are not protected, but the magic inside them should no longer be the dragon's.

That is the similarity I see between all methods we've seen so far.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:That doesn't really seem to be the case, based on the fact that Zhaitan and Mordremoth are now dead despite hundreds of risen and mordrem still being alive.

I disagree on the term of hundreds. We see in s3 a lot of dragon minions corrupted by dragon energy. They are imbued by he energy of several dragons. Both living and death. This is something unique and part of the instability. Keep in mind that maps are frozen in time. In ember bay we see destroyers (while primordus is awake and rising nearby) who took unbound magic and turned into destroyers with undead or mordrem abilities. So they where alive minions for a then existing elder dragon with abilities of undead dragons, possible gained by consuming unbound magic. In siren’s landing we find the same unbound magic, but less Risen. Those who are there are not effected by unbound magic at all. This supports the theory that those risen are no longer minions and are not affected by unbound energy like corrupted minions. They actually seem to imuun to it like we are. So it seems these risen, like the silvari who are left over, are no longer corrupted and given the number, might have escaped corruption.

There might even be a similarity to a certain sunspear in a cave who is awakened, but still Joko had no power over him.