An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 11 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    I'd argue that THE actual problem is that Anet feels it's perfectly fine to just remove parts of their game and replace them on the grounds of "we feel like it". They did this with Guardian Spirit weapons, they did this with Mesmer Phantasms and now they're doing it with Deadeye Malice play-style. Not saying that Anet have no power to change the aspects of their own game, because they have all the power to do so. HOWEVER, to retain good relations with players, the best approach is to make such drastic changes only when absolutely necessary and after exhausting several other options.

    When you set the precedence of change-on-a-whim, no test servers, a mentality to never take feedback into consideration (name the amount of changes that were rolled back or diverted because of player feedback), you set an atmosphere that can be destructive for your product.

    Regardless of if something turns out to be a buff or not, many players don't care about min/max buffs but mostly about aesthetics and "feeling" (take a look at politics and you'll understand that). The ultimate and best solution is to do as much to keep the feel, style and use of the game the same and being creative about how you implement change, in the current and the future. This requires forethought, planning and cooperation (TEST SERVER!).

    This is the sad state of affairs we're in.
    Everything you just wrote is how I am feeling right now about this mess.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

    I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

    Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

    ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

    I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

    Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

    I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

    This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

    I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

    Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

    ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

    I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

    Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

    I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

    This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

    The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

    I'm more interested in the game-related aspects of the change, but I freely acknowledge that the change came out of left field.

    Edit: Checked my posts and I see exactly one thumbs up for both. Mystery fellow, who are you? Enlighten me to your presence O.o

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

    I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

    Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

    ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

    I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

    Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

    I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

    This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

    The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

    What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

    That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

    Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

    I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

    Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

    ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

    I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

    Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

    I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

    This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

    The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

    What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

    That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

    Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

    Eh, fair, if a bit...conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt anet would go through that much trouble just for one setup when they could've done it much, much, muuuuuuch easier. Or maybe they just suck at phrasing. I for one have never seen any complaints on the forums about DE being difficult to understand. The rifle and duel pistol spammers crawling all over the place certainly don't point to that conclusion, either.

    Edit: I'm leaning more and more to just sucky phrasing.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    The current problem would have been circumvented had the devs released the elite specs on a test server to those that pre-ordered PoF, tested the specs for a couple of months and made meaningful observations and changes and then released the DE with the current malice style (or very soon after release if the resources weren't available to change it before the official release). After you set up the profession spec and release it, you only change it if unexpected outcomes arise which usually only happen when less-than-optimal forethought was used in balancing the spec in the first place.

    Even if the result ends up being crappy, boring and bland, that is the kitten-bland-borring flavor of those that pick that spec. The imparative should then be "don't make that mistake again" for the next set released.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:
    Can we give backstab and DJ the Blurred Frenzy treatment and buff the hell out of those two skills in pve? It'd be a nice dps boost and an easy split. Then fix the irritating thing with the stealth on dodge and see where we're at then?

    I get that some people really liked the previous incarnation of Malice - I liked how the dmg increase applied to all my attacks, too. But let's be honest, the whole 'stalking' thing was horribly unfun to play against. YOU may have fun marking someone, then waiting for malice to build or w/e, then smashing your opponent, but it's an awful pvp mechanic.

    Pve wise, they definitely need some love, but I'm not quite sure why there are some people complaining that...they have to use a core profession mechanic? Maybe I am interpreting this incorrectly - I found DE in pve to be utterly, mindnumbingly boring before. Now it's kinda mildly more interesting because I'm rewarded more for making good use of stealth, but you certainly don't see me complaining that I have to use shade skills for scourge to be effective, shroud for a reaper/core necro, or that playing a class involves...playing that class.

    ANet could also stand to sprinkle some more stealth access around tbh. I run dp/rifle in all game modes, but I feel bad for those who wanted to move away from rifle, stealth utilities (could of the stealth utilities could maybe do with some fenangling - lower cooldown, lower stealth duration, yadday adda), etc. There definitely is a difference between being able to easily access stealth and not doing so, and just having to sacrifice far too much to get stealth (say...a sword/SB setup or something)

    I understand your viewpoint but, killing an entire mechanic just to fix one build that could have been easily fixed in another manner without breaking the Malice system to the point it only benefits a select few who are willing to conform to that style of play is ludicrous. Also it's not just some of the players it's a good majority of the Deadeye player base. Or if anything the ones who love and understand the rifle, which again is the majority of the Deadeye player base.

    Simply buffing the stealth skills won't solve the underlying problem of the Specialization itself.

    I wouldn't presume to guess the statistics of the change. All the teefs I know have been loving the changes. That certainly doesn't mean that others who have groups of friends/guilds with teefs hating the change are invalid, but...their exp doesn't invalidate mine, and vice versa.

    This isn't a debate about your experience vs another, it's about the terms and conditions that facilitate change. Because you could very well be on the opposite side of the fence the next time Anet decides to change something drastically, and then where do you argue from? Would you contradict yourself or support the change even at the detriment of yourself and others?

    The paragraph below the one that's showing in your quote is extremely relevant. I never made it about personal experience - it was an example to prove a point when I addressed their usage of 'everyone who loves rifle' and all that jazz. I do disagree with anet's REASON for doing this...but I have very little against the results - malice pre-change was...dare I say it, extremely simple. IIRC they said they changed it because it was too hard to understand, which I found absolutely bamboozling. I found it boring and too easy to understand/work with.

    What I fear is that they didn't change it for the reasons stated (your recollection is correct, they said it was "bland" and traits "conflicted" and malic interaction was too "complex") but rather just to balance an aspect of the game that was out of hand (the stealth camping Deadeye deathsquads in WvW, perhaps).

    That's even worse practice than changing things on a whim.

    Also, I know they have test server publishing capabilities...

    Eh, fair, if a bit...conspiracy theory for my taste. I highly doubt anet would go through that much trouble just for one setup when they could've done it much, much, muuuuuuch easier. Or maybe they just suck at phrasing. I for one have never seen any complaints on the forums about DE being difficult to understand. The rifle and duel pistol spammers crawling all over the place certainly don't point to that conclusion, either.

    I'm willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt (I say it is a fear, not my opinion) but I'm also willing to just live with their mistakes as well. If Deadeye turned out boring and bland, I'll take it and play the spec when I feel like something sniper-ish even it it's boring and bland.

  • Aistos.5174Aistos.5174 Member ✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

    Boring you say? It was kitten and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

    Boring you say? It was kitten and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

    You said it yourself. Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

  • Wondrouswall.7169Wondrouswall.7169 Member ✭✭✭

    Not sure how Peripheral Vision was esoteric. Description was fine and it fit well with the bottom row of support traits since it added additional boons to allies and damage to nearby enemies.

    Now, it's been replaced with Premeditation. Premeditation is fine as a trait, but doesn't fit the bottom line about using stolen skills. Meanwhile, Collateral Damage was added, which is a weak trait and does AoE like Peripheral Vision but passively activates when killing a foe.

    I Would like to see Peripheral Vision return and Premeditation replace Collateral Damage.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You sound like those world of warcraft developers who overhauled their classes every expansion on the simple reason of "To keep things fun and interesting." While not considering the simplestic, fun, easy to learn and fluid nature of what came before.

    Boring you say? It was kitten and bland? That my friend is your opinion. Why did you play Deadeye at all then if it was boring and bland? Not everyone shares your opinion, neither do they share my opinion collectively. Regardless the old system was simplistic and easy to learn and use.

    You said it yourself. Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

    I never said it was Easy to Master, that perma stealth build wasn't easy to use for everyone. Nor was the learning curve for Deadeye non-existent, like all Thief related builds it takes a certain skill and timing to play effeciently as well as initiative management. It is in no way easy to master right off the bat.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Yeah sorry, but that's not a fact, that's called an opinion.
    I am a DE that uses a rifle and I'm more potent than ever.

    Yeah, in WVW/PVP you are.
    Care to explain why even benchmark submitters are refusing to even spend time on Rifle DE and all the attention is going to D/D DE?
    I don't know, maybe it has to do with the wooping 5.5K DPS loss, which gets even worse when you glitch out of stealth. People are reporting a kitten 9K DPS loss in some cases and you mean to tell me you are somehow more potent now? Lol

    Yes, in WvW, the game mode that I play, I am more potent.

    An incredibly low percentage of people care about benchmarks, and an even lower percentage of those people who care about them actually hit those benchmarks. Thus the word...benchmark. Raid players are a very small minority but for some reason are among the loudest of players, especially right now.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Aistos.5174Aistos.5174 Member ✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

    Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

    And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Yeah sorry, but that's not a fact, that's called an opinion.
    I am a DE that uses a rifle and I'm more potent than ever.

    Yeah, in WVW/PVP you are.
    Care to explain why even benchmark submitters are refusing to even spend time on Rifle DE and all the attention is going to D/D DE?
    I don't know, maybe it has to do with the wooping 5.5K DPS loss, which gets even worse when you glitch out of stealth. People are reporting a kitten 9K DPS loss in some cases and you mean to tell me you are somehow more potent now? Lol

    Yes, in WvW, the game mode that I play, I am more potent.

    An incredibly low percentage of people care about benchmarks, and an even lower percentage of those people who care about them actually hit those benchmarks. Thus the word...benchmark. Raid players are a very small minority but for some reason are among the loudest of players, especially right now.

    If I may clarify I'm not a raider. I've never set foot in a raid at all since their conception, I find raid culture toxic and the elitisim that follows irritating.

    I'm more your general PvE player who likes to duel his friends in his Guild Hall Arena. My moto is:

    "If I'm going to play the game I'm atleast going to be proficient at it. I may not be esports, pro-league or Raid Master good, but I'm going to play to the best of my abilities and have fun doing it."

  • Aistos.5174Aistos.5174 Member ✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

    Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

    And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

    Ok, nice if it works for you:) I just can‘t see the reason for this smoke screen that much because the biggest danger for me as DE always were melee classes (PvP wise).
    And it reminds me just to much at the bad experiences with SWTOR -.-

    But maybe, if they leave it like this (what I seriously fear), I have to stay away for a (long) while and then start all over with it...

    Edit: And the need of stealth for DJ I can‘t comprehend either - DJ spamming is already prevented by the consumption of malice. There is no necessary and decent connection between these two mechanics at all.

  • Zephyr.5382Zephyr.5382 Member ✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    Easy to learn and use and easy to master makes a bland and boring gameplay.

    Please, for the love of The Six, stop putting it so matter-of-factly.

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    Okay I'm finally home, All my messages as of today have been from my phone. Now then I want to give a brief history of the Thief for those players that constantly insist Deadeye needs to be more mobile and active. And a Reminder to the Development team that made these change to what the original goal and purpose of what the Deadeye was suppose to represent and be, I feel that purpose seems to have been lost to the Literal Sands of Time here...

    As everyone here knows This game leans more towards the Action, and constant movement combat than most MMO's. Thief in of itself, since the beginning of the game before the age of Elite Specializations been one of the most if not THE most Mobile class in the game, and was almost always included in Serious SPvP line ups. In WvW it was the literal WoW Rogue of the game from the usage of it's Perma-Stealth builds to pick of lone roamers and zerg stragglers. It's had it's ups and downs but it's always had a place, somewhere.

    Fast Forward to Heart of Thorns, the Evolution of the Thief, the Daredevil, amplified the Thief's already impressive arsenal of mobility and evasion abilities immensely, only rivaled today by Mirage and Mirage Cloak evasion builds. Daredevil dominated in single combat in SPvP and WvW, with it's quick kills and Finishing move Elite skill. Staff, Daggers, Or Pistols, Daredevils were not to be taken lightly.

    Now we Arrive at Path of Fire. The community demand for a Rifle Sniper Thief is in full swing and step only gaining momentum from Heart of Thorns onward. The Developers decided to take a different approach to the new Elite Specialization, the Deadeye. The Elite Spec was designed to have Melee Strength ranged attacks, at the cost of significant mobility loss to compensate for this bonus in attack power. This change can be seen in Deadeyes Mark which replaced the Iconic Steal both Core Thief and Daredevil still use. As well with the Kneel skill which rooted the Deadeye in place and only allowed for Dodges, and movement skills like Retreat, Roll for Imitative, Shadow Step and Shadow Flare, to move the player around with out disrupting the Kneeling position and allowed the Deadeye to keep pressing the attack with out getting up.

    The Malice system was put in place to help the Deadeye Achieve the Melee strength damage scores. With out it there damage was comparable to an ordinary ranged class. Malice charged over time, but charged faster if the Deadeye was attacking, this system was meant to give the opponent if the situation was PvP centered time to prepare, react, and anticipate when the Deadeye was going to try to strike with it's strongest attacks.

    This setup had the potential for plenty of counter play if the attacked player in question knew what they were getting into to. Yes Many professions have ways to deal with a Deadeye, but Spellbreaker has the best chance of the group with Magebane Tether and Sight Beyond Sight, and Shadow Refuge is easily foiled with a well placed Stomp, Endure pain can negate physical damage to close distance and if they carry a shield to both stop and reflect projectiles back in their face. The Perma-Stealth build is not with out flaw. I personally built a Weaver build that could make a fool out of a Deadeye, And Dragon Hunter has plenty of stealth breaking ability's and immunity's to survive a Deadeye encounter.

    It goes with out saying that the original Deadeye was Easy to start playing but took some effort to master, unless you're a no skill #3 Spamming Pistoleer... Deadeye doesn't need any more Mobility, it had enough to get the job done, and doesn't need to be force focused around Stealth for improvement. Deadeye Damage was indeed sub par before, but that didn't stop me and many others from playing and enjoying the class.

    This new Malice system... I know some praise it, some despise it, myself included. The way it is now only limits the possibility's of what the Deadeye can do going forward, where the old system was flexible enough to be shaped to the users desires within certain constraints... IE: Condition Damage. But as stated before the Condition side could of been fixed with a slight tweak to Malice. Now we have 2 Energy resources to Juggle, and an Endurance gauge being used for Offensive play rather than Defensive as Dodging should be used for, especially on a thief, that already has less mobility than it's Core, and Elite Spec counter parts.

    So I'll end this by asking those who have been on the counter argument of the spectrum of the Deadeye Changes who say they currently enjoy it. Take a closer look at what we had, what the classes was intended for at the start, and tell me. Is it's purpose and general intent still the same now as what it was before? If you still think it does well.. I can't exactly make a case that will convince you otherwise then.

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    So.. after a small update, seems we can get Silent Scope's Stealth without Kneeling? Was that always the case?

    Also seems a lot more reliable. Might be going batty, but still!

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Scud.5067 said:
    So.. after a small update, seems we can get Silent Scope's Stealth without Kneeling?

    Also seems a lot more reliable. Might be going batty, but still!

    That was like that before the patch you can get stealth while standing and holding a rifle if you dodge, but it goes on a 10 second CD, this CD is instantly reset should you go into a Kneel.

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Scud.5067 said:
    So.. after a small update, seems we can get Silent Scope's Stealth without Kneeling?

    Also seems a lot more reliable. Might be going batty, but still!

    That was like that before the patch you can get stealth while standing and holding a rifle if you dodge, but it goes on a 10 second CD, this CD is instantly reset should you go into a Kneel.

    Ah ok thank you. Might just be getting used to it - rather than it having gotten better.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

    Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

    And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

    You're actually defending that smoke wall abomination?... it's literally Smoke Screen that can be spammed infinitely and maintained with no worry of running out of initiative by itself. If you want to make a way for Deadeye to have projectile defense why not take a page out of swtor's book on the smuggler for crying out loud and give the Deadeye permanent cover.... the end result is the same.

    You get a pass for now because that was your phone, but go read who I was responding to. A fellow asked about the new rifle stuff. I explained. It was almost a mechanics only post, except for the little bit where I implied I thought it was a tad too strong - I haven't the faintest idea where you pulled the rest from, but it stinks.

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

    Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

    And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

    You're actually defending that smoke wall abomination?... it's literally Smoke Screen that can be spammed infinitely and maintained with no worry of running out of initiative by itself. If you want to make a way for Deadeye to have projectile defense why not take a page out of swtor's book on the smuggler for crying out loud and give the Deadeye permanent cover.... the end result is the same.

    You get a pass for now because that was your phone, but go read who I was responding to. A fellow asked about the new rifle stuff. I explained. It was almost a mechanics only post, except for the little bit where I implied I thought it was a tad too strong - I haven't the faintest idea where you pulled the rest from, but it stinks.

    I see, well regardless I still hate the Smoke Wall, I was personally hoping they would add a more Deadeye Themed skill, rather than just put an already existing one on an Initiative skill to replace the strongest move the Deadeye had. All of the Deadeyes ability's have this Shadowy Orange tinged to them, Snipers Cover Smoke Wall simply does not fit with the Rifle weapon set in it's current implemented state.

  • Wondrouswall.7169Wondrouswall.7169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    I know I'm in the minority trying to make a boon-share DE work. At first, I posted that I did not like the changes and since then, I have tried to see if I was probably overreacting. My conclusion is that these changes made boon-share DE worse.

    Peripheral Vision and the +20% duration bonus on stolen skills for each Malice the player had were integral into making boon-share work. That potential is now weaker due to the loss of being able to share additional boons from stolen skills with nearby allies around the marked target and the duration extension per-Malice removed from stolen skills. On top of that, Premeditation ends up contributing more towards DPS specs than boon-shares, mostly due in part to the 1% bonus damage per boon portion.

    The last bit is that Fire for Effect gained Fury, but Fury is a common boon is much easier to maintain and is available on many other professions. Boon-share DE could also have fury uptime before if using Thrill of the Crime on Trickery, so this addition did help but only in the most sub-optimal scenarios and party compositions but does not add much with even decent groups.

    If you really want a boon-share spec to have a chance, restore Peripheral Vision. Collateral Damage is a weak trait that does half what Peripheral Vision did and it's weaker in every way while not doing well in encounters dealing with a single target - I suggest Premeditation replaces Collateral Damage since it does have a use for DPS specs, but not for boon-share.

    Finally, bring back the 20% duration bonus per Malice on boons and conditions from stolen skills and place that on Fire For Effect. This would have it so a boon-share DE can still build up Malice, hold out using stolen skills a bit until Malice if full, use stolen skills to share boons, then utilize stealth attacks to consume Malice or refresh stolen skills with cantrips with One in the Chamber.

    However, the one issue that hinders boon-share DE is that it provides boons others can do and stolen skills from NPCs seem random. The other boons that are not so common are quickness and alacrity. Given the two, I believe quickness is a good choice, but rather than placing it on a DE trait, tweak champion and legendary ranked NPCs to always give Steal Time and extend the base durations of quickness and slow from 2s to 3s.

    Those changes together with Peripheral Vision restored allows a boon-share DE to share might, fury, and quickness, while offering a way to generate 100% boon duration on additional boons but being limited to applying only to boons from stolen skills. It might not be perfect, but it could put boon-share DE on perhaps an acceptable level of viability.

    Edit: Grammar.

    PET PRECISION & DPS DATA (DPS outdated)
    Back in Black... Desert Online.

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Curennos.9307 said:

    @Aistos.5174 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    They did not revamp DE to only fix one build.

    It was because the system was kitten, boring and bland before. Now, you have to be more active while playing DE, especially with Rifle. Though it could need some tweaks, it is better designed now than before.

    You perfectly name the problem: Now we have to play this active playstyle. Imo active players aren’t automatically the better players; the diversity makes it.
    All the other classes are already (hyper)active classes and now they take away the only specialisation which was different.

    If you want to play an active class you have several options in this game. I don’t want to offend anyone but I honestly don’t understand why the „active/dynamic“ players decided for rifle DE.
    For a calm ranged damage dealer there was exactly one possibility - untill this patch, now it is gone.
    And I wasn‘t a DJ spammer before; I loved to change the place while stealthed and chose the right moment for DJ (in PvP, PvE is another thing) - without the need of beeing stealthed. I wouldn‘t have had a problem with a DJ nerf (for PvP/WvW), but I have a problem with seeing this unique specialisation disapear of this great game.

    There are maybe some points for the trait changes you can talk about but I haven‘t seen one good reason for the changes in the rifle skills yet.

    THe entire game was meant to be active. If you want to be a 'calm ranged damage dealer' you can still kneel and just spam rifle 3. Or pistol 3. It's also not horribly difficult to press your elite skill, dodge roll or a stealth utility and then press 1. Rifle also has a smoke field now, which can be comboed with standing 4 for stealth.

    I don‘t like using the same skill over and over again. With the removal of cursed bullet and the unnecessary stealth need of DJ they took away some main mechanics for me. And gave me this useless smoke wall instead. Of course I could arrange with this new skill set but it just doesn‘t make sense to me and takes the fun out of the game. And for me a game like GW 2 has to be fun.

    May I ask if you for yourself see any benefits in the new rifle skills (not malice changes)? I‘m just interested...

    Certainly. Crouching rifle 4 is amazing and would definitely cover, or compensate, for the removable of unbockable from DJ. You can fire away at opponents pretty much freely without fear of ranged retaliation (except for unblockables obv). It's also a smoke field, so 20% to blind people you shoot at with the rifle. And you can use it with rifle 4 standing to get stealth. It's an amazing skill.

    And if you cast it in all four directions, it makes a pound sign xD The new maleficent GM trait thingy gives amazing sustain and pressure + boons such that you don't have to take trickery anymore. I can also fire off DJs more frequently, albeit lower damage (but I odn't need to hit someone for 30k - that's overkill).

    You're actually defending that smoke wall abomination?... it's literally Smoke Screen that can be spammed infinitely and maintained with no worry of running out of initiative by itself. If you want to make a way for Deadeye to have projectile defense why not take a page out of swtor's book on the smuggler for crying out loud and give the Deadeye permanent cover.... the end result is the same.

    You get a pass for now because that was your phone, but go read who I was responding to. A fellow asked about the new rifle stuff. I explained. It was almost a mechanics only post, except for the little bit where I implied I thought it was a tad too strong - I haven't the faintest idea where you pulled the rest from, but it stinks.

    I see, well regardless I still hate the Smoke Wall, I was personally hoping they would add a more Deadeye Themed skill, rather than just put an already existing one on an Initiative skill to replace the strongest move the Deadeye had. All of the Deadeyes ability's have this Shadowy Orange tinged to them, Snipers Cover Smoke Wall simply does not fit with the Rifle weapon set in it's current implemented state.

    It is amusing to use when the target is down and desperately throwing projectiles/attacking. You sit there, casually plinking away, denying them the chance to respawn on the point, behind your shield of smokey win.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @Arlowslol.1974 said:
    This is all i want to say. new malice system is FAR BETTER THAN the previous one .

    Any reasoning for this?

    Healthier game design, most notably from WvW perspective. The new systems forces thieves to actively build their malice and play well in order to build it, rather than just sitting there in permastealth waiting to OHKO someone out of nowhere. It raises the skill floor and makes it feel more fun to fight against as far as the malice stacking process goes in conjunection with DJ. If you want to be a stationary player sitting in stealth waiting to snipe people from a mile away, go play Call of Duty. That's not fun to fight against in GW2 and a number of the most prominent rifle players knew this wasn't a fun mechanic to fight against.

    Thing is, the consequences of the healthier malice acquisition are arguably less healthy than it was previously (extra damage on backstab, free initiative, not addressing play simplicity, still allowing very unhealthy play patterns through malice on heal, unblockable DJ, better rotation pressure), and still are riddled with bad design and implementation (mid-flight attacks during stealth dodge inflicting reveal, mediocre traits, obvious superior weapon choices in the PvP formats, rewarding 3spam even more than previously, not assisting in previously weak kits on the conceptual level and keeping them conceptually weak).

    The intent was super good and the claim that the new malice system (NOT DE AS A WHOLE) is better than it once was is absolutely correct. The issue is they left DE as a whole in a really unhealthy state that promotes just as much or more anti-fun gameplay patterns.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    It was not too long ago that people were claiming the entire DE spec sucked and was garbage and unplayable. Rifle itself saw a small handful of changes but people were claiming it as trash. I always find it interesting as to how something claimed as trash tier suddenly becomes this holy grail that must be defended at all costs.

    Because these people who complained back then are the ones that benefit from that BS that happens right now. They complained rifle sucked and want a gunslinger and some form of stupid Daredevil-With-Guns.
    People - like me - that never complained since beta week 2 of PoF, the "brave" Rifle Deadeyes, now of course defend their holy grail.

    You messed a few things up in your argumentation; I hope I cleared it up for you before spreading more misleading rubbish that sounds like we Rifle Deadeyes were complaining. We were Rifle DEs because we could get used to it, the whiners went Daredevil and kept nagging. Do not mix that up please.

    Which has nothing to do with what I said. The fact remains people were complaining DE as a garbo-spec. I did not single you out so you had no need to come in and defend yourself.

    The point being there a whole lot of "woe is me kitten" posted on these boards after every change with people no sooner READING the changes before rushing off to post how terrible everything is and how "Classs XXX is being picked on again'.

    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    for the PvE side of things, at it's current state right now, it has already been tested to the bone on benchmark tests. it doesn't take a month to create or revise a PvE build if they started formulating one when the patch landed.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    for the PvE side of things, at it's current state right now, it has already been tested to the bone on benchmark tests. it doesn't take a month to create or revise a PvE build if they started formulating one when the patch landed.

    I really do not care about Benchmark tests against Golems and What exactly is "IT".? It as in DE with Rifle? It as in DE with d/p? It as in DE with d/d?

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    It was not too long ago that people were claiming the entire DE spec sucked and was garbage and unplayable. Rifle itself saw a small handful of changes but people were claiming it as trash. I always find it interesting as to how something claimed as trash tier suddenly becomes this holy grail that must be defended at all costs.

    Because these people who complained back then are the ones that benefit from that BS that happens right now. They complained rifle sucked and want a gunslinger and some form of stupid Daredevil-With-Guns.
    People - like me - that never complained since beta week 2 of PoF, the "brave" Rifle Deadeyes, now of course defend their holy grail.

    You messed a few things up in your argumentation; I hope I cleared it up for you before spreading more misleading rubbish that sounds like we Rifle Deadeyes were complaining. We were Rifle DEs because we could get used to it, the whiners went Daredevil and kept nagging. Do not mix that up please.

    Which has nothing to do with what I said. The fact remains people were complaining DE as a garbo-spec. I did not single you out so you had no need to come in and defend yourself.

    The point being there a whole lot of "woe is me kitten" posted on these boards after every change with people no sooner READING the changes before rushing off to post how terrible everything is and how "Classs XXX is being picked on again'.

    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    A lot of it is PvE players because rifle lost damage. Which is undeniably true.

    Generally speaking, the only kit that did not see some kind of direct benefit here was D/D in the PvP environments, just because there's absolutely no advantage to running it in comparison to D/P because DE only exacerbates D/D's conceptual weaknesses. Rifle received some changes which made it more awkward, sure, but a number of changes help make it less one-dimensional. My complaints don't lie in viability so much as I think the intent to remove unhealthy play patterns was wildly unsuccessful; anti-fun gameplay just moved from one build with rifle to another (several) and a few skills that feel less fun to play into (unblockable DJ, Unload spam).

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    for the PvE side of things, at it's current state right now, it has already been tested to the bone on benchmark tests. it doesn't take a month to create or revise a PvE build if they started formulating one when the patch landed.

    I really do not care about Benchmark tests against Golems and What exactly is "IT".? It as in DE with Rifle? It as in DE with d/p? It as in DE with d/d?

    all power builds at the very least. it's fine if you don't care about benchmark tests but with those tests people can roughly estimate how much potential output a certain build can dish out in an actual PvE encounter (it will definitely be lower than the benchmark but with it you can gauge of how much a certain build can possibly do) and whether you like it or not that's how most PvE builds are made nowadays.

    let me give you a short simple example analogy to explain why people use golems: in the pharmaceutical/medical industry, people do not test new drugs or treatments immediately on people, they will do it first in a controlled environment - in a lab and not on people.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    It was not too long ago that people were claiming the entire DE spec sucked and was garbage and unplayable. Rifle itself saw a small handful of changes but people were claiming it as trash. I always find it interesting as to how something claimed as trash tier suddenly becomes this holy grail that must be defended at all costs.

    Because these people who complained back then are the ones that benefit from that BS that happens right now. They complained rifle sucked and want a gunslinger and some form of stupid Daredevil-With-Guns.
    People - like me - that never complained since beta week 2 of PoF, the "brave" Rifle Deadeyes, now of course defend their holy grail.

    You messed a few things up in your argumentation; I hope I cleared it up for you before spreading more misleading rubbish that sounds like we Rifle Deadeyes were complaining. We were Rifle DEs because we could get used to it, the whiners went Daredevil and kept nagging. Do not mix that up please.

    Which has nothing to do with what I said. The fact remains people were complaining DE as a garbo-spec. I did not single you out so you had no need to come in and defend yourself.

    The point being there a whole lot of "woe is me kitten" posted on these boards after every change with people no sooner READING the changes before rushing off to post how terrible everything is and how "Classs XXX is being picked on again'.

    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    A lot of it is PvE players because rifle lost damage. Which is undeniably true.

    Generally speaking, the only kit that did not see some kind of direct benefit here was D/D in the PvP environments, just because there's absolutely no advantage to running it in comparison to D/P because DE only exacerbates D/D's conceptual weaknesses. Rifle received some changes which made it more awkward, sure, but a number of changes help make it less one-dimensional. My complaints don't lie in viability so much as I think the intent to remove unhealthy play patterns was wildly unsuccessful; anti-fun gameplay just moved from one build with rifle to another (several) and a few skills that feel less fun to play into (unblockable DJ, Unload spam).

    While I may not always agree with your conclusions on a given issue, you do at least make solid arguments. The unhealthy gameplay argument is one that is seperate from whether a build viable or not or whether the changes resulted in buffs or nerfs. Now I am not certain as to which gameplay styles you see as unhealthy. The P/d condition build IMO is more active and has plenty of ways to counter . S/d and S/p are also in a better place as far as healthy gameplay goes. D/X might be an outlier due to all the damage loaded into the backstab but I have not tried that build yet . I also fully expect a learning curve when it comes to learning how to counter the new DE. The fact that malice is now tied to making a successful attack is much healthier as it puts some sort of control over how fast a thief can gain malice in the hands of the target.

    That said .If a target is just going to eat all attacks as so many do when the face a P/P build using unload and then complain about the end result , this not due to unhealthy gameplay, it due to bad gameplay.

    I will likely get around to testing the Rifle itself this weekend. The early "feel" of it was less a sniper feel but having "more to do" on the part of the Rifle user, which I do not have a problem with.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    Likewise, baba. We may not agree on everything but I can respect facts as they are and sometimes what feels strong can be a bit subjective based on past experiences and counters to the builds and classes we play and make/what's in the meta.

    I don't really think the changes create unhealthy gameplay scenarios in most kits. Particularly the ones which are off-meta for the DE like you mentioned.

    P/P is more or less unhealthy just because of the initiative recovery in it right now and how low of a skill floor it has. It's not that it can't be played well. It's just very much like SA D/P, it can be played poorly with good results. In this case, it only really needs to press one or two different buttons, as well, which feels pretty bad. I've posted on the P/P thread that it's dominant right now mostly just because it counters the meta pretty harshly. Projectile reflection isn't a part of a lot of builds that used to run it with substantially higher uptime, which massively shut down P/P. And they still do. It's why I think P/P is unhealthy; it's extremely binary, just like D/D is, but with a very low skill floor and it counters a lot of the current meta.

    Free Backstab damage and the unblockable DJ with such a short rotation of cooldowns isn't healthy, either. Malicious attacks should have been handled to provide a small reward based on each equipped weapon or simply done on a per-weapon-combination basis. What's fair for D/D is not fair for D/P. Similarly, what's fair for P/P is not fair for P/D. The rifle needs to be more risk-prone but more rewarding. Right now it feels safe and flat to play with limited opportunity for enemies to really shut it down. It actually feels a lot like warrior's rifle, if the warrior had stealth.

    The changes to malice and how it's acquired were fantastic. The changes to a lot of the traits and methods of play surrounding the DE were pretty horrendous. Overall I'd probably go as far as saying the whole thing is just a net negative as far as gameplay integrity goes. The PvE community obviously only cares about optimal numbers, but I'm inclined to agree that in my experiences thus far I'd rather face the old iteration of the class rather than the new one. It feels like the matchup of playing into a DE is less about what I can do to actively fight it and that the cards are entirely in the DE's hand; if they screw up I can perhaps win, but outplaying them lacks any sense of real reward for me.

    It pretty much just moved a lot of the negatives of one build - SA + D/P rifle DE - into more builds and the class in general overall. It also seemed to trivialize a lot of the decision-making process when playing as the DE.

    And of course, speaking from the thief perspective, it still feels bad that yet again, every favorable gain to the kit I run is offset by limitations of the spec/my kit or simply just massively favors the counterpart kit with the better offhand weapon choice.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I am suggesting tha people take some time to TEST builds before claiming they now unviable and I am going to suggest that those that DO NOT do more harm then good as the legimate issues are drowned out by the "woe is me" crowd.

    for the PvE side of things, at it's current state right now, it has already been tested to the bone on benchmark tests. it doesn't take a month to create or revise a PvE build if they started formulating one when the patch landed.

    I really do not care about Benchmark tests against Golems and What exactly is "IT".? It as in DE with Rifle? It as in DE with d/p? It as in DE with d/d?

    all power builds at the very least. it's fine if you don't care about benchmark tests but with those tests people can roughly estimate how much potential output a certain build can dish out in an actual PvE encounter (it will definitely be lower than the benchmark but with it you can gauge of how much a certain build can possibly do) and whether you like it or not that's how most PvE builds are made nowadays.

    let me give you a short simple example analogy to explain why people use golems: in the pharmaceutical/medical industry, people do not test new drugs or treatments immediately on people, they will do it first in a controlled environment - in a lab and not on people.

    Well if you claim ALL power builds lost out then I question the methodology. This suggests to me they were SEEKING a desired outcome .Nuff said.

    As to your Golem thing, this is an online game. This is not the drug indusrty. When I test a new SKILL on a person playing another toon no one is being hurt and no ones life at risk. The only accurate way to test the efiicacy of a given skill, trait or utility is against another player and or an AI with SOME ability to make it competitve. Shooting my rifle against a Gate that has 500000 Hitpoints demonstrates nothing. It creates ARTIFICIAL rotations meant only to maximize damage and ignores far too many variables that occur in gameplay. Any Scientist will tell you that an experiment not worth a heck of a lot if all variables that might affect the outcome are removed. One can "prove" almost everything they wish if they start removing or manipulating the variables.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Well if you claim ALL power builds lost out then I question the methodology. This suggests to me they were SEEKING a desired outcome .Nuff said.

    don't put words in my mouth, i never once said all power builds lost out with the update. in fact the benchmarks now say that D/D DE is the go-to power build now at the moment which, due to the malice and stealth rework, can reach the previous numbers only Rifle DE was able to hit. and yes, people test because people want to find out which is the strongest build simple. enough said.

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    As to your Golem thing, this is an online game. This is not the drug indusrty. When I test a new SKILL on a person playing another toon no one is being hurt and no ones life at risk.

    again i never said people were hurting other people in real life. i only merely gave the example analogy to better explain it that's why it's called an analogy.

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The only accurate way to test the efiicacy of a given skill, trait or utility is against another player and or an AI with SOME ability to make it competitve. Shooting my rifle against a Gate that has 500000 Hitpoints demonstrates nothing.

    the only purpose of testing on a golem is to measure how much actual output a build can put out.

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    It creates ARTIFICIAL rotations meant only to maximize damage and ignores far too many variables that occur in gameplay. Any Scientist will tell you that an experiment not worth a heck of a lot if all variables that might affect the outcome are removed. One can "prove" almost everything they wish if they start removing or manipulating the variables.

    don't get me started on science. going back, people who make PvE builds test in on the golem first to benchmark it. then they test it in a real, actual encounter in PvE. doing this they can check how much a build can possibly dish out. and then on the real test, a real fight, they can see how effective it is. and people have already done that with the new DE.

    here's another analogy (more complex) that might be easier to relate to:
    when people buy a car to race with: they buy it (pick the class) → modify/tune them (make the build) → test it on a dyno (golem) → retune it for any errors in tuning/modifications (adjusting the build) → test it again on a dyno (golem) [repeat until satisfactory] → and then finally if ready, put laps on it on the race track (fighting real enemies) → back to retuning for improvements (golem and rebuild phase)

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    You're trying to educate a wall.
    I'd give up if I were you. He is probably like the rest of WVW/PVP only players who think having quick access to burst equals high substained DPS.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tashigi.3159 said:
    @Astyrah.4015
    You're trying to educate a wall.
    I'd give up if I were you. He is probably like the rest of WVW/PVP only players who think having quick access to burst equals high substained DPS.

    yeah true lol, i pretty much intended that to be my last reply to him regarding that argument. i initially only wanted to point out that Power DE PvE builds have already been tested enough.... whatever he says after that last reply of mine, i pretty much would give 0 kittens for :D

  • Barzah.8019Barzah.8019 Member ✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    Welp beating dead horse ain't gonna get us anywhere at this point. Instead ,let's address what does current DE lack so dev might be able to fix it for us

    • Inconsistent malice generate system, the need of hitting marked target to gain malice can be frustrating on hectic situation which most likely happend
      Solution Either giving malice when using initiative skill on other target, or adding malice regeneration system (which re-encourage stalking tactic just like previous patch)

    • Low Death's Judgement Damage, yep i also notice that our "perfect shot" skill is not "perfect enough" especially on PvE content
      Solution Increase DJ damage damage (30% per malice on PvE), maybe ignore -% toughness on PvP so it could hit hard without being OP whatsoever

    • Malice dump alternative, many of you already know that Malicious stealth attack on several weapon are not worth spamming.
      Solution adding extra skill to F1/F2 that consume every initiative to give boon to self or condition to marked target

    • Im still insist that initiative gain when reaching maximum stack should become a standard for DE trait to give a unique gameplay for DeadEye trait
      Solution add 4 or 3 initiative att full malice stack, 7 with M7 trait

  • Faxi.3059Faxi.3059 Member ✭✭

    Finaly all Thief 's trait broken !! well done ANET /Clap /Clap

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hello anet, can you let malice generate over time as well as generated like it currently is at same time? If not maybe consider adding a malice autogain somewhere in the traits like in payback [because that trait is lacking], and make payback 20%++ or something that would make it at least more interesting to consider from the other 2 options. I still find resetting silent scope with kneeling very disjointed, if not for the fact that the act of kneeling/standing can be unreliable especially when we are doing a more frantic in&out playstyle [I am sure people with stellar pings aren't going to have much issue]. Kneeling rifle 4 is also an issue because of this, with the smoke screen either not being put down, or being put down double [not that the ini cost is much of an issue], but it's just messy and rather not smooth. I'd settle for rifle4 kneel making 2 randomly placed deadeyes kneeling to confuse enemies in place of the smoke screen with a reasonable ini cost.

  • eldrjth.7384eldrjth.7384 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Barzah.8019 said:
    Welp beating dead horse ain't gonna get us anywhere at this point. Instead ,let's address what does current DE lack so dev might be able to fix it for us

    • Im still insist that initiative gain when reaching maximum stack should become a standard for DE trait to give a unique gameplay for DeadEye trait
      Solution add 4 or 3 initiative att full malice stack, 7 with M7 trait

    I like this suggestion. Make initiative refund mechanic baseline (pretty much a espec defining feature) and vary the malice required to top out and add a twist to it with the grandmaster trait. Those who trait M7 need 7 malice while others require 5. M7 would return say 7 ini while bqobk returns 5. The M7 trait also allows malicious attacks to hit harder after a longer build up (maybe even include bonus malicious strike dmg to this trait, like 20% increase or something), and bqobk requires shorter build up, hits more frequently, but is more focused on ini spending attacks. Should the 3rd trait still be boonshare in this case? I suppose it could be but another take on this would be nice. This change would make taking the trickery line truly optional even opening up the use of shadow arts.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:
    You're trying to educate a wall.
    I'd give up if I were you. He is probably like the rest of WVW/PVP only players who think having quick access to burst equals high substained DPS.

    On the converse, it's often the optimizations of the PvE community which get the most attention and cause a number of kits to be forced to non-viable states in the competitive modes, because fixing their design problems would make them overpowered in PvE which people, as seen in this thread, would get very, very upset by.

    This is the plight the PvP-mode players have had literally since the start of the game. There have been entire weapon sets and trait lines that have never been good - if not even reasonably viable. Never. Not once.

    In the case of your car-tuning example, it's only a valid test for straightaways and is largely used to check if things are okay with the engine and internals. It's ignoring air resistance and everything that affects handling and its ability to corner, gear change speeds, and the likes.

    On-demand damage (often referred to as "Burst") is ALL that matters in PvP and WvW. Sustained damage is literally pointless if your opponent can outplay or just outright negate a majority of it, and totally meaningless most of the time because you need to be doing way more way more often than just dealing damage. The ability to penetrate defenses or bolster yours and make trades when necessary is how PvP matches are won. It's the ability to get performance when required and perform acutely and make play adaptations on the fly.

    The reason why the divide is so stark is because the overarching design from a holistic perspective matters so much more in the PvP environments than it does in PvE. So many rotations, especially on the thief, are one or two buttons over and over again. Most of the abilities and interactions and nuances of the class are ignored. What's good in PvE is almost never good in PvP/WvW just because of the way of the design of where that damage is sourced from. PvE can only ever be balanced if the AI is set up to reflect that of players. GW2's AI is painfully simple and predictable, so the notion of "PvE balance" is just a result of math and optimization around the bare minimum of defenses. It's easily solvable by running numbers and does not change unless the encounters themselves do. There is no such thing as a metagame (the real definition) in PvE. Enemies do not adapt and as such players need not adapt their styles of play let alone their builds.

    So when we see entire specs, weaponsets, and the likes balanced explicitly for this formula, it upsets people. It's the same argument people have in PvE with rifle right now: They don't like the style. The rifle as it was was strictly unhealthy for the game's PvP formats. It was actively unfun to play against. The primary strategy was to just ignore people playing around it and run away because it wasn't winnable if they were good, even if you are too. At best, it basically became a stalemate.

    Thing is, it's even more than that in PvP and WvW. It's not that it's not just sub-optimal to play using one's preferred set, it can actually be the reason for failure. To such extreme, it'd be like if there was a mechanic on a boss which randomly gave it immunity to either power or condition damage at the start of a fight with no tell and no way to swap gear. What becomes viable? Only hybrids. Imagine the backlash and how much the game would change. It really is that punishing in the PvP modes.

    Any game that wants to support PvP should prioritize its balance over that of PvE unless they make the AI in PvE reflect that of other players. Randomized combos. Coordination to force players down no matter what people in the party do. Focusing priority targets. If this doesn't happen, there's no way to balance kits. People advocating splits to fix this don't seem to understand that may as well just ask for nine new professions exclusive to the PvP modes. The level of work needed for the PvP modes is tremendous and so much needs to be changed on concept level, not numbers.

    It's why scourge is totally overpowered right now in PvP and WvW. It's the design of the kit. The numbers are trash in PvE-style DPS races, but scourge as a concept is wildly out of control and beyond anything ever released.

    The changes to DE are a concession to the ideology that to balance PvP by changing design, things may change in PvE. People pursuing the optimal path in PvE will not care. If optimality is all that matters, which is all people discuss when talking about DPS, then it shouldn't make a difference if the kit is D/D or rifle or P/P or whatever.

    Like PvP and WvW, it should only be an issue when it becomes physically impossible or overly-taxing to succeed on a given kit. But by that point, it probably isn't viable in the PvP modes for a number of reasons, either.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @Tashigi.3159 said:
    You're trying to educate a wall.
    I'd give up if I were you. He is probably like the rest of WVW/PVP only players who think having quick access to burst equals high substained DPS.

    On the converse, it's often the optimizations of the PvE community which get the most attention and cause a number of kits to be forced to non-viable states in the competitive modes, because fixing their design problems would make them overpowered in PvE which people, as seen in this thread, would get very, very upset by.

    This is the plight the PvP-mode players have had literally since the start of the game. There have been entire weapon sets and trait lines that have never been good - if not even reasonably viable. Never. Not once.

    In the case of your car-tuning example, it's only a valid test for straightaways and is largely used to check if things are okay with the engine and internals. It's ignoring air resistance and everything that affects handling and its ability to corner, gear change speeds, and the likes.

    On-demand damage (often referred to as "Burst") is ALL that matters in PvP and WvW. Sustained damage is literally pointless if your opponent can outplay or just outright negate a majority of it, and totally meaningless most of the time because you need to be doing way more way more often than just dealing damage. The ability to penetrate defenses or bolster yours and make trades when necessary is how PvP matches are won. It's the ability to get performance when required and perform acutely and make play adaptations on the fly.

    The reason why the divide is so stark is because the overarching design from a holistic perspective matters so much more in the PvP environments than it does in PvE. So many rotations, especially on the thief, are one or two buttons over and over again. Most of the abilities and interactions and nuances of the class are ignored. What's good in PvE is almost never good in PvP/WvW just because of the way of the design of where that damage is sourced from. PvE can only ever be balanced if the AI is set up to reflect that of players. GW2's AI is painfully simple and predictable, so the notion of "PvE balance" is just a result of math and optimization around the bare minimum of defenses. It's easily solvable by running numbers and does not change unless the encounters themselves do. There is no such thing as a metagame (the real definition) in PvE. Enemies do not adapt and as such players need not adapt their styles of play let alone their builds.

    So when we see entire specs, weaponsets, and the likes balanced explicitly for this formula, it upsets people. It's the same argument people have in PvE with rifle right now: They don't like the style. The rifle as it was was strictly unhealthy for the game's PvP formats. It was actively unfun to play against. The primary strategy was to just ignore people playing around it and run away because it wasn't winnable if they were good, even if you are too. At best, it basically became a stalemate.

    Thing is, it's even more than that in PvP and WvW. It's not that it's not just sub-optimal to play using one's preferred set, it can actually be the reason for failure. To such extreme, it'd be like if there was a mechanic on a boss which randomly gave it immunity to either power or condition damage at the start of a fight with no tell and no way to swap gear. What becomes viable? Only hybrids. Imagine the backlash and how much the game would change. It really is that punishing in the PvP modes.

    Any game that wants to support PvP should prioritize its balance over that of PvE unless they make the AI in PvE reflect that of other players. Randomized combos. Coordination to force players down no matter what people in the party do. Focusing priority targets. If this doesn't happen, there's no way to balance kits. People advocating splits to fix this don't seem to understand that may as well just ask for nine new professions exclusive to the PvP modes. The level of work needed for the PvP modes is tremendous and so much needs to be changed on concept level, not numbers.

    It's why scourge is totally overpowered right now in PvP and WvW. It's the design of the kit. The numbers are trash in PvE-style DPS races, but scourge as a concept is wildly out of control and beyond anything ever released.

    The changes to DE are a concession to the ideology that to balance PvP by changing design, things may change in PvE. People pursuing the optimal path in PvE will not care. If optimality is all that matters, which is all people discuss when talking about DPS, then it shouldn't make a difference if the kit is D/D or rifle or P/P or whatever.

    Like PvP and WvW, it should only be an issue when it becomes physically impossible or overly-taxing to succeed on a given kit. But by that point, it probably isn't viable in the PvP modes for a number of reasons, either.

    The level of work needed for the PvP modes is tremendous and so much needs to be changed on concept level, not numbers.

    Yes, exactly this. We are not dealing with 500000 HP objects in WvW and Pvp where the entire goal is to get it to 0 as quickly as possible and added to that in PvE there needs to be NO consideration given to that 500000 hp object as to whether it is having FUN or enjoying the gameplay.

  • DragonSlayer.1087DragonSlayer.1087 Member ✭✭✭
    1. Give back Malice passive 3% extra damage per point.
    2. Rifle #4 Kneel Skill Sniper's Cover - Change to: Shadowstep to target location. Range 900
    3. Silent Scope - Add: Sniper's Cover now grants stealth (3 seconds) and stops you from auto attacking.
    4. Increase rifle range to 2000 when kneeling and have bullets pierce (just like the kitten longbow).
  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DragonSlayer.1087 said:
    1. Give back Malice passive 3% extra damage per point.
    2. Rifle #4 Kneel Skill Sniper's Cover - Change to: Shadowstep to target location. Range 900
    3. Silent Scope - Add: Sniper's Cover now grants stealth (3 seconds) and stops you from auto attacking.
    4. Increase rifle range to 2000 when kneeling and have bullets pierce (just like the kitten longbow).

    Wouldn't #2 not be a great idea for a ranged weapon to go in melee range? #3 I can think of by manually turning off the AA, but it could be a qol. #4 I am sure everyone would like/agree for the range, not so sure about piercing but that would be a bonus if put somewhere on a trait.

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