An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 15 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • DragonSlayer.1087DragonSlayer.1087 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Casting Sniper's Cover while a smoke line is already up seems to lose the projectile-block for a moment. A bit frustrating, though using that skill in general seems to be frustrating to many.

    I think it's broken. It doesn't seem to block projectiles. Also the field combos with it is bugged to.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kallist.5917 said:
    Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

    So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Zephyr.5382Zephyr.5382 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Kallist.5917 said:
    Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

    So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

    I have to assume that by "stronger" you're referring to dynamic gameplay and/or fun factor--surely not DPS.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2018

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Oh you're talking about fighting stationary damage sponges where apparently your fun relies solely on how high your number on a chart is. Ok.

    Here's another polite request for PvP / WvW players to get over the fact that some people like to play PvE content (in a game that is primarily built on PvE), where targets are certainly more than damage sponges and relative possible numbers on DPS rankings do impact the ability to even access that content.

    We're in this post-Deadeye rework mess up situation together.

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    This game is not primarily built on Pve, Wow is. Gw2 is not.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 9, 2018

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Zephyr.5382 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Kallist.5917 said:
    Sounds a bit whiny, but Ive basically quit playing with the last patch. Anet has made their position clear with the patches since Pof. Buff and improve Meta, crush anything else that shows any potential. And this? This was just the Icing on the cake.

    So making the DE stronger forced you to quit? I don't get it.

    I have to assume that by "stronger" you're referring to dynamic gameplay and/or fun factor--surely not DPS.

    Oh you're talking about fighting stationary damage sponges where apparently your fun relies solely on how high your number on a chart is. Ok.

    It's still not stronger now though. We had more and better options before with better results. About the damage, of course more damage is better than less damage. When is less damage better? How is less damage better for you? Potential damage does make a difference for builds even in non dps metered content, why be okay with restrictions or nerfs?

    To the raw numbers. Yes a DJ could hit harder old style, but if my target has only 16k hps and I got an unblockable from stealth while standing attack that costs no INI and is cast in 1/2 second while hitting for 17k, how is a 25k shot , blockable 3/4 second cast, usable only while kneeling and expending 6 ini to do so stronger?

    The effectiveness of DE in WvW is greater IMO. You can freely expend INI and #2 and #3 and even #4 while both doing damage and building malice. This can be done at a much higher rate then prior , again as you to had to husband some INI. The ability to do this forces the enemy into utilizing more dodges as they simply can not ignore that incoming damage (Two round and three round hit hard in their own right) whereby that DJ now only does not have to deal with blocks , but the enemy now has used his dodges when you use it.

    NONE of this applicable to the group interested only in DPS because they are fighting against a PVE Boss that has hundreds of thousands of Hitpoints. What needed there is much more limited and focuses primarily on DPS , thus all the "Golem tests" as proofs. This is apples and oranges when discusssing whether a build better then it was before or worse.

  • Seis.4736Seis.4736 Member ✭✭

    Imo rifle DE in WvW is decent. Yes, it is not the best or even better in what it can do compared to other classes but it is not bad. You can engage with a dodge + steal, get nice chair, sit down and drink tea while giving your target a full load of hurt, before finally rolling back to stealth (prefer meld) to serve the main course (full stack DJ). it is a good combo but it really ties the deadeye to a static build with minimum if not no room for tweaks.

    On the other hand, DE rifle in PvE is just weak. No other explanation but the wind up time for a big chunk of dps is just too long and bothersome compared to other classes. Daredevil staff is much better hence why you see them often in PvE. I personally swap to DD staff in pve and DE rifle in wvw.

    Imo utilities are fine as they are. No need to add f3 f4 f5, but sniper's cover is really clunky. Wish they make it an aoe centered on the DE that blocks projectiles 360. Or if it is not too much to ask, combine sniper's cover with kneel when traited with silent scope so that whenever you kneel, you automatically block projectiles until you fire a shot/attack (makes sense being it called sniper's cover).

    It would really be nice if atleast we get like a reply as well just assurance that they are still hearing us out about this rework

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭

    One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

    if you want to put mercy as an F# skill you can aswell put it on F1 while you have a mark.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

  • DragonSlayer.1087DragonSlayer.1087 Member ✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

    They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DragonSlayer.1087 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    As mentioned above, some communication would be really appreciated at this stage. It's been over 5 weeks since the rework was pushed out and the state of Deadeye in PvE continues to be poor.

    They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

    Good! That's far more important than buffing the PvE aspect of one weapon of one profession that already has multiple viable PvE builds. Is anyone championing the DPS of Guardian's Mace? Or Ranger's Sword? How about Necro anything in PvE. There are many things that could use improvements in this game, and Deadeye Rifle DPS in literally the least-seen game content is rightfully at the bottom of their priorities. It's frustrating to see the entitlement shown in various threads demanding the attention of developers when there are far more constructive things the Devs are working on.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    One of the issue I see in Wvw as a Rifle DE is the need for Mercy. If you tag your target, then that target just rolled away and flee inside her zerg, you are screwed. Mercy should be baseline as F3 ability. Dj should be F4 or F5, and maybe some others utility ability as F4.

    if you want to put mercy as an F# skill you can aswell put it on F1 while you have a mark.

    That would mess up the mark reset from swindler's equilibrium, and the lower mark cd from slight of hand. Would be better as an F3.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hello. I would like to make a request for Anet. I have been doing my science on thieves. (Not that kind of science :) ) and i have figured out we could actually get way more out of the class only thing that would be neccesarry is changing traits for core theif. They are all good. But misplaced. Since we are allowed to only have three specializations we need to have the traits propperly placed so we can get the most of a certain build. The following traits are imo placed in wrong specializations and should be put to following trait lines

    Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)
    Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)
    Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)
    Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

    it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)
    thx for view

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2018

    @DragonSlayer.1087
    They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

    If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns and late content.

    I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    Hello. I would like to make a request for Anet. I have been doing my science on thieves. (Not that kind of science :) ) and i have figured out we could actually get way more out of the class only thing that would be neccesarry is changing traits for core theif. They are all good. But misplaced. Since we are allowed to only have three specializations we need to have the traits propperly placed so we can get the most of a certain build. The following traits are imo placed in wrong specializations and should be put to following trait lines

    Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)
    Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)
    Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)
    Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

    it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)
    thx for view

    Swindlers and Rending Shade both fit well where they're at right now. Putting both of those traits which are pretty awesome traits for those two different build styles into Critical Strikes is a waste for anyone who builds more towards utility than maintaining a damage threshold. If Crit Traits is your favorite trait line then I get it, but that still shouldn't happen.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    it isnt my favorite trait line i just know that if someone plays Critical strikes he aims for power build and that gives you currently these options = staff DD, rifle DE (not a good idea) s/d, s/p (both have main point of stealing boons with 3 and stealth attack mostly PVP i saw some in wvw too) p/p (kitten but working in PVE dungeons are paradise with this at least for me not gonna get you to raid or frac tho) and also d/d with DE (it is a nice build i saw it can do pretty dmg) these are those most viable as it comes down to dps
    i dont know what do you mean by keeping utility. But I will explain my point why to put those two traits into Critical stikes
    Rending shade is a useful skill which allows you to steal boons with stealth attacks. if you tho have this skill in shadow arts it forces you to pick a whole traitline which gives you basically no damage increase only stealth improvements Critical strikes on the other hand are comepletely dmg increase based trait line and that is why stripping boons with stealth attacks would be usefull mainly for DE builds = DE has elite which makes you go to stealth 2 and break revealed if you will have any weapon you could use this trait to stealth yourself steal boons from target thx to rending shades when attacking them (with D also backstabing them if possible which is extra dmg) AND DE dps is increased by 1% for each boon you have thx to Premeditation. We would be able to play De with melee weapons and rifle stealth attacks would finally be worth at least those 2boons we would rip.
    Hidden killer. AS i have mentioned Shadow arts are completely useless traitline. You are able to stealth yourself long enough even without it thx to shortbow + smoke field or something. That is why it needs improvement. If you are already using stealth it would be tactical to use traps (thus trappers respite) and stealth attacks from behind to increase dps. This would make shadow arts viable both for condi and power builds and we would actually have raeson to use traps which are completely despised by every thief so far. with power builds on the other hand hidden killer would give you abbility to deal actually some dmg from stealth which you are improving throughout all the traitline
    ALSO thief is DPS class and we currently are not even Meta which is kinda sad. that is why we need MORE DPS

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379

    Rending Shade is highly beneficial to condi builds because of resistance.

    Your change also is not thematically accurate. Stealth Attack bonuses should be in a stealth focused traitline.

    Also, you used the word “science” incorrectly. Science is a methodology for testing a hypothesis. You aren’t testing anything. You are proposing a change but it is based on what you think would be interesting. That’s fine, but it’s not science.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Doctor Hide.6345Doctor Hide.6345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2018

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @DragonSlayer.1087
    They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

    If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns and late content.

    I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

    I agree with you. That is the main reason I don't bother with said poster because that person can only see the PvP/WvW centric view while thinking the PvE for it is meaningless. No point in arguing with people like that because they won't listen to reason. It's best to ignore them and continue on with your day.

    With that out of the way, I don't give two flying carpets if all their focus is on the new living world. They messed up rifle dps bad with these changes, so I expect them to at least put the dps back where it was before they decided to change the spec for no reason. Dropping 6k-7k basically screwed over any rifle pve player, but all their silence on it means one thing. They don't care anymore, so I hope they jack up the damage and fun for rifle in PvP/WvW now making every rifle player on an even playing field of uselessness. Yes, I am that bitter and angry at them for this for DE rifle change.

    If Life gives you lemons, put the lemons in a sack and beat up Life for giving you lemons in the first place.

  • Seis.4736Seis.4736 Member ✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @DragonSlayer.1087
    They're busy prepping for LW S4E3.

    If the balance team is designed such that they need to do work on other content areas, then that is an issue that Anet needs to address because it clearly isn't working for the health of a game. We have bad redesigns and late content.

    I'd respond to the post that spurred this response but I honestly don't have the energy to argue any more with people that only care for a PvP-centric view to the extent that they misrepresent PvE scenarios and balance and misrepresent instanced PvE as one of the least popular game modes (ATs and ranked sPvP would like a word) to try and score points. It is tiring. For anyone that still wants to try and argue the PvE Deadeye in this environment, good luck.

    I was about to, popping my knuckles and all but i decided not to spew the hate train i had in mind lol

    Anyways, anyone noticed the bug with lead attacks (from trickery) generating with the new DJ? New version doesnt consume initiative and yet generates 5 stacks. I think this is not intended and when fixed will nerf our opening burst again (i run shadow arts so i mostly open with a 1 malice DJ from stealth).

  • Seis.4736Seis.4736 Member ✭✭

    @Jack Redline.5379 said:
    Trappers respite - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)

    Debatable. Stealth =/= power build. Ever seen a condi trapper thief?

    Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)

    Invigorating precision is in Critical strikes because it benefits from critical hits. It doesnt necessarily mean you have to run x/x weapon to get a critical hit.

    Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

    Again, debatable. Although Hidden Killer only procs from stealth, it is really leaning towards getting critical hits. (100% crit chance that lingers from stealth). Also, Rending shade boosts stealth attacks so imo it just fits Shadow arts.

  • Been playing DE rifle/pp the past 2 weeks in wvw. It feels really weird and kinda ruins the gameplay of having to roll just to use DJ and pp cant even utilize full malice. For me as a new player if not for my love of gun classes i would have switch to an engineer or ranger. My friends who played the DE before really enjoyed it alot before but now feels it is nerfed bigtime.I hope they bring it back or atleast give it a buff lol. I wanna enjoy this class and I bought this game cause od this class. Still ok on open world. Haven't tried fractals or dungeons yet but wvw it's hard toc tell..anet ruined just the class.

  • ^
    Well most are complaining here the DE with rifles can't do raids/fractals. DE must work with rifles on both pve/pvp or better change it specialization to daggers than rifles and just rename it.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    A specialisation doesn't need to use its weapon in every game mode. I'd also prefer that Rifle was fixed but at this stage, with the lack of communication and updates, I think we want to push for the smallest changes that get us into a good place quickest.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    A specialisation doesn't need to use its weapon in every game mode. I'd also prefer that Rifle was fixed but at this stage, with the lack of communication and updates, I think we want to push for the smallest changes that get us into a good place quickest.

    Not a bad mindset tbh.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 23, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

    Talking PvE...
    I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

    Talking PvE...
    I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

    with staff yes but the dagger already wont deal as much damage in the hand of a daredevil, why increase the gap further? i mean its not like daredevil could cleave better with dagger, is it?

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @TwiceDead.1963 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

    Talking PvE...
    I think the idea was to make Deadeye the king of single-target DPS among the thief elites... Considering how little it brings to the table otherwise. Daredevil has mobility and reliable Cleave with staff, the latter is more important in PvE. You could argue that it already is, though...

    with staff yes but the dagger already wont deal as much damage in the hand of a daredevil, why increase the gap further? i mean its not like daredevil could cleave better with dagger, is it?

    I told you. I think the idea was to make Deadeye king of single-target DPS. That's what I think they were getting at. I could be wrong, it's just a guess.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

    Increasing the base damage runs the risk of removing the small amount of interplay that Malice stacking during particular phases currently has. Dagger/Dagger Thief has a (fair) reputation for being incredibly easy and I think just improving the base damage wouldn't reward finding situations where it isn't a DPS loss to stack some extra Malice with Dancing Dagger before going into the Assassin's Signet buffed Malicious Backstab combo I outlined previously. This keeps the moderately higher skill ceiling of Dagger/Dagger Deadeye intact while a base damage improvement would just enforce straight forward CnD Backstab spam I fear.

    Core Thief is so far behind for Power damage that it needs far more to improve it but does hold the advantage of being better than Deadeye for condition damage and can also be played as a very off-meta boonshare option on two bosses. I'm also of the opinion that there is no harm in differentiation between the different elites including differences in weapons, how damage is accessed and how that damage goes out. With this in mind, if Deadeye is turned into a high single target damage spec, then Staff Daredevil needs only a few buffs to either auto attacks or Vault in order it for it be lower single target but higher cleave option. With Condition Daredevil currently in a decent spot, this would promote the use of different builds depending on the boss and group composition and that isn't a bad thing from my point of view.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    To add, Daredevil running a baseline buffed Backstab Dagger/Dagger build would have very similar total modifiers to a low Malice Malicious Backstab Deadeye but would intrinsically come with more cleave due to Bound and higher overall modifiers improving auto attack which Deadeye can't compete with. This could end up favouring Dagger/Dagger Daredevil in all situations which I think is less ideal for build variety.

    I'd much rather see unique identities for Deadeye, Staff Daredevil and Condition Daredevil even if those identities are just different aspects of dealing damage. I don't think there is any harm in certain weapons, skills and damage patterns being notably better with particular builds in PvE and I feel that variety could actually make repeating content more interesting.

    Finally, and as cruel as it is, my post was focused most on raiding. To access that content you need an expansion so have access to at least one elite spec. I think we're in a position where elite specs should be balanced and in a good spot long before considering core Thief. But I am mean and horrible so yeah.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    • Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

    This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

    is there a specific reason you want the damage increase on the modifier of malicious backstab instead of increasing backstab base damage wich would profit every type of dagger thief? or is dagger thief overperforming as core/daredevil in pve?

    Increasing the base damage runs the risk of removing the small amount of interplay that Malice stacking during particular phases currently has. Dagger/Dagger Thief has a (fair) reputation for being incredibly easy and I think just improving the base damage wouldn't reward finding situations where it isn't a DPS loss to stack some extra Malice with Dancing Dagger before going into the Assassin's Signet buffed Malicious Backstab combo I outlined previously. This keeps the moderately higher skill ceiling of Dagger/Dagger Deadeye intact while a base damage improvement would just enforce straight forward CnD Backstab spam I fear.

    i dont mind thief being easy as long as the dps is soo low many raid groups wont consider taking one with them. i mean i dont raid much, but that litle raiding i do in the first 2 full clears i did i was allowed to run thief because it is my main and then was asked to play mesmer as thief damage is too low and well they wanted a premade mesmer. if deadeye is not by a good part top single target dps, considering basically no cleave then i dont see a reason for them being hard to play.
    because if you have a class that is doing okeish damage and is super easy to play then you maybe would prefer a pug playing that as you can expect them to reach those numbers. but if the class is just doing moderate damage and is harder to play, then you do not want a pug on it.
    thats why i would have prefered them improving rifle dps for deadeye as just the fact that you are kneeling and only single target makes it alot harder to play no matter the rotation so they could have given this weapon highest single target DPS, but they didnt..

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    To add, Daredevil running a baseline buffed Backstab Dagger/Dagger build would have very similar total modifiers to a low Malice Malicious Backstab Deadeye but would intrinsically come with more cleave due to Bound and higher overall modifiers improving auto attack which Deadeye can't compete with. This could end up favouring Dagger/Dagger Daredevil in all situations which I think is less ideal for build variety.

    deadeye can have higher modifiers for dagger. daredevil get havoc master 7% + bound 10%. deadeye gets iron sight10% + 1% per boon wich can be more then 7% also you dont need to dodge to keep up the modifier, you dont have to do anything just mark your target for your modifier uptime. so its better for build variety if a weapon is on one elite spec barely usable and trash on the other/core then if it was usable for ~same dps on two elites?

    I'd much rather see unique identities for Deadeye, Staff Daredevil and Condition Daredevil even if those identities are just different aspects of dealing damage. I don't think there is any harm in certain weapons, skills and damage patterns being notably better with particular builds in PvE and I feel that variety could actually make repeating content more interesting.

    staff is a daredevil weapon if you want to buff a clear identity for daredevil, buff staff. rifle is a deadeye weapon, if you want to buff clear identity of the deadeye then buff rifle.
    you tho want to buff a core thief weapon for only 1 elite spec. dagger dagger power is not a deadeye identity. sure it performs best on deadeye atm, thats no reason to increase the efficiency for only this elite spec, cause its simply not a deadeye only weapon and there is no need for it to be so much worse on core/daredevil.

  • @Miatela.5047 said:
    A specialisation doesn't need to use its weapon in every game mode. I'd also prefer that Rifle was fixed but at this stage, with the lack of communication and updates, I think we want to push for the smallest changes that get us into a good place quickest.

    Still it is DE's bread butter. Your request would rather suit to buff core thief. Buff rifle and skills related to it and that's it. They could improve it to be atleast servicable or average for pve not utterly useless.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    i dont mind thief being easy as long as the dps is soo low many raid groups wont consider taking one with them. i mean i dont raid much, but that litle raiding i do in the first 2 full clears i did i was allowed to run thief because it is my main and then was asked to play mesmer as thief damage is too low and well they wanted a premade mesmer. if deadeye is not by a good part top single target dps, considering basically no cleave then i dont see a reason for them being hard to play.

    I've been kicked from multiple groups when trying to join as a Thief despite Voice in the Void and KP out of my ears. I have never been kicked from a group that has had me play Thief and can see what I do during fights. There is currently some stigma that you are up against when joining but if you are playing the class right then DPS shouldn't be an issue - I tried to show that with the logs I posted and you are welcome to check out rankings on gw2raidar. Or put another way, Deadeye would be top single target on quite a few bosses if Weaver wasn't overpowered on every boss. Deadeye performs better in a lot of cases than Holosmith and Spellbreaker and in pretty much every scenario is above Guardian builds.

    If someone is asking you to switch to Mesmer then it sounds like you were playing Condition Daredevil? There are few bosses where you would be playing a power build and then be asked to switch to Mirage. Mirage is currently broken due to Confusion but that is another discussion for a different place.

    because if you have a class that is doing okeish damage and is super easy to play then you maybe would prefer a pug playing that as you can expect them to reach those numbers. but if the class is just doing moderate damage and is harder to play, then you do not want a pug on it.

    Please look at the statistics on gw2raidar. Power Deadeye has a reasonably high damage ceiling (check the gw2raidar rankings - they don't show my 100th percentile logs either so Slothasor is up to 22.2k DPS, Samarog 21.4k, Sabetha 29k and so on) when it is played well. It also has a much more forgiveable simple rotation. It is possible to pull 28.1k benchmark DPS simply by Marking, autoing and using Backstab. No Malice stacking, no active Assassin's Signet, no Spider Venom, no Thieves Guild, no Shadow Flare. No timing of abilities. No overlapping CDs. Correspondingly, 50th percentile Deadeye DPS is again high in the rankings of different professions. You could absolutely take a pug Deadeye (or Condi Daredevil as appropriate) but chances are they are not going to be an experienced player since those people moved to other classes before figuring out the changes.

    thats why i would have prefered them improving rifle dps for deadeye as just the fact that you are kneeling and only single target makes it alot harder to play no matter the rotation so they could have given this weapon highest single target DPS, but they didnt..

    Yeah, they didn't and the rework was messed up massively and so long as dodging is required to access Death's Judgment I doubt Rifle will be back in instanced PvE. Which is why I am advocating for two simple changes that would make Deadeye almost optimal on some bosses and another that would allow off-meta healing / Might compositions. Both are advantageous for the health of the game.

    so its better for build variety if a weapon is on one elite spec barely usable and trash on the other/core then if it was usable for ~same dps on two elites?

    Nope, and you've gone for a bit of a stretch to reach that conclusion. I suggested that Staff deserves buffs on Power Daredevil, dagger/dagger is already used on Condition Daredevil so a different aspect of Dagger/Dagger being used on Deadeye is absolutely fine in my opinion. Your solution is worse for diversity - it could result in dagger/dagger being the superior weapon set for Power Daredevil, Condition Daredevil, Power Deadeye as well as niche specs. That isn't a good situation.

    staff is a daredevil weapon if you want to buff a clear identity for daredevil, buff staff. rifle is a deadeye weapon, if you want to buff clear identity of the deadeye then buff rifle.
    you tho want to buff a core thief weapon for only 1 elite spec. dagger dagger power is not a deadeye identity. sure it performs best on deadeye atm, thats no reason to increase the efficiency for only this elite spec, cause its simply not a deadeye only weapon and there is no need for it to be so much worse on core/daredevil.

    No, it isn't a "Deadeye" weapon - that thinking doesn't work in PvE and hasn't for sometime; Weaver uses Staff, Holosmith uses Rifle, Soulbeast uses Shortbow, Guardian uses Greatsword and so on. However, Marking to allow for Malice stacking, Malice scaling and Malicious attacks are all Deadeye mechanics - which is what I was proposing to be improved.

    I agree that Staff should be buffed and something should be done about Core Thief, but we're getting off tangent here.

    And to avoid this turning into a big quote-off which is boring and tiresome to reply to, just throw any points down as statements and I'll be happy to discuss ^_^.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    And to avoid this turning into a big quote-off which is boring and tiresome to reply to, just throw any points down as statements and I'll be happy to discuss ^_^.

    wow should have read this last one before making a long quotelist..
    the not so important points aside, i simply do not fully understand why you want an improvement that is tied to both deadeye and dagger/dagger and not to only one of those. because dagger dagger is as a core weapon set used by different builds aswell and deadeye might aswell choose other weapons, by tying it to both you limit the builds that would profit from this buff. for example you could aswell ask for iron sight to be 20 or 25% damage increase in PvE ( not exactly sure how much more overall damage you aim at) this would buff deadeye damage towards their target no matter how they play and therefor leave room for a little more variety.
    i understand that improving only dagger you fear staff would be too weak an option on daredevil, that means then staff needs a little more buff i guess if that is the case. but still not a reason to restrict a dps increase to both a weapon and an elite choice.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    Actually, I'd rather Anet did a full rework and got Rifle back into a better position, reviewed Malicious skills (for example Pistol mainhand is in a strange spot) and considered Stealth access and how that impacts usability of these skills and, as a result, PvP and PvE viability. At the same time, I'd hope for Daredevil to be given the buffs that it lacked during raid-wide DPS nerfs (Grace of the Land, food, Spirits) and a second parse done on Stolen Skills to allow Core Thief Explode Plasma support to be viable on more bosses.

    However, I am not hopeful of that happening any time soon which is why I'm trying to go for the low hanging fruit needed to sort Deadeye in PvE and afford it a proper niche (since Condition Daredevil is already okay). Improving Malicious Backstab's Malice modifiers and Fire for Effect are small changes that can be split from PvP/WvW but have a large positive impact on PvE beyond one class. That the changes needed are small hopefully means they come quickly and that Staff Daredevil's weaknesses can be addressed too.

    The issue with a straight buff to Backstab is that it could wipe out the little diversity that we have in PvE by resulting in every build being Dagger/Dagger while a straightforward buff to, for example, Iron Sight (though also baseline Backstab) diminishes the already slim difference between a lazy Deadeye and one that plays well with Initiative / Malice juggling, cooldown aligning and good positioning.

  • Akeno.4962Akeno.4962 Member ✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    One thing I think I haven't seen mentioned and that irks me a lot is how standing rifle is just meant to be a bad kneeled rifle. I kind of understand that it "can't be as powerful since there's no trade-off" (even if there are lots of more powerful builds with less conditioning disadvantages), but it could have some purpose.

    But it doesn't. In a pvp/wvw scenario where you play "snipping", if an enemy reaches melee range you're either going to change weapons (and therefore remove kneel) or cancel kneel, disappear by using stealth and reposition yourself. In a pve scenario, when rifle was somewhat viable, you didn't use it either because it lowered your dps too much, it was preferable to change to daggers.

    So basically, standing rifle are filler skills not meant to be used ever since they hold no purpose as they're just weaker versions of kneeling skills. Something should be done to give them purpose. They don't even need to be skills centered around power damage. Utility packed skills, support oriented skills centered around debuffs...

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    @Akeno.4962 said:
    One thing I think I haven't seen mentioned and that irks me a lot is how standing rifle is just meant to be a bad kneeled rifle. I kind of understand that it "can't be as powerful since there's no trade-off" (even if there are lots of more powerful builds with less conditioning disadvantages), but it could have some purpose.

    But it doesn't. In a pvp/wvw scenario where you play "snipping", if an enemy reaches melee range you're either going to change weapons (and therefore remove kneel) or cancel kneel, disappear by using stealth and reposition yourself. In a pve scenario, when rifle was somewhat viable, you didn't use it either because it lowered your dps too much, it was preferable to change to daggers.

    So basically, standing rifle are filler skills not meant to be used ever since they hold no purpose as they're just weaker versions of kneeling skills. Something should be done to give them purpose. They don't even need to be skills centered around power damage. Utility packed skills, support oriented skills centered around debuffs...

    well i like skirmishers shot to build up malice as it is faster then all the other rifle options.
    the question here is if standing skills are too much like kneeling skills or kneeling ones to much like standing? because staning offers good options to kite while keeping pressure. kneeling has a hard time to keep the distance and it has as stronger damage skill TRB wich is not really sniperlike to spamm shots, i mean you would expect single big hitting projectiles instead.

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    while a straightforward buff to, for example, Iron Sight (though also baseline Backstab) diminishes the already slim difference between a lazy Deadeye and one that plays well with Initiative / Malice juggling, cooldown aligning and good positioning.

    as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

  • JonnyForgotten.4276JonnyForgotten.4276 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2018

    I would like to see a percentage damage increase per malice come back, although maybe only 1% or 1.5% (on top of the current buff from Iron Sights). That would give us back some PvE damage along with addressing that whole thing where sets that don't have easy stealth access or bad malicious stealth attacks are locked out of interacting with the malice system.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

    The low-end of Deadeye skill already rewards disproportionate DPS against the low-end of other professions.

    Suppose we go with a straight Iron Sights buff - it would need to be close to an additional 20% to get Rifle (or other weapon sets) anywhere close to being okay DPS but that would push Dagger/Dagger far above what it can do currently resulting in it being high single target and decent cleave. We've seen how unhealthy that is for the game with Weaver which is why I'd rather propose that Deadeye finds a niche as high single target and low cleave. The other issue is that whatever buff is given to Iron Sight to fix Rifle applies to Dagger/Dagger auto too. Dagger/Dagger auto with Mark only is similar DPS to Rifle currently so if the two end up the same, why take Rifle and a more complex rotation especially when you lose dodges and movement to deal that DPS?

    A flat buff to Iron Sight ingrains Dagger/Dagger further but does so by encouraging poor play that has the opportunity to ignore all additional Deadeye mechanics beyond refreshing Mark. With what I am proposing, you at least need a modicum of active play to deal good DPS. I don't think this is a bad thing. Of course, I'd ideally want improvements to Malicious Backstab coupled with improvements to Malice scaling of Death's Judgment and a review of the damage of Three Round Burst but Rifle requires a lot more attention before it is in a good place due to how cumbersome the rotation is.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    @Miatela.5047 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    as we wont get back our malice based damage modifier i assume, thats the only option to buff deadeye single target damage without pushing them more into using dagger dagger. you would be rewarded for positioning and initative/malice juggling by the same % you do now. buffing iron sight would profit deadeyes of any skill level the same it doesnt diminish anything, so i dont really see your issue with it :3

    The low-end of Deadeye skill already rewards disproportionate DPS against the low-end of other professions.

    Suppose we go with a straight Iron Sights buff - it would need to be close to an additional 20% to get Rifle (or other weapon sets) anywhere close to being okay DPS but that would push Dagger/Dagger far above what it can do currently resulting in it being high single target and decent cleave. We've seen how unhealthy that is for the game with Weaver which is why I'd rather propose that Deadeye finds a niche as high single target and low cleave. The other issue is that whatever buff is given to Iron Sight to fix Rifle applies to Dagger/Dagger auto too. Dagger/Dagger auto with Mark only is similar DPS to Rifle currently so if the two end up the same, why take Rifle and a more complex rotation especially when you lose dodges and movement to deal that DPS?

    A flat buff to Iron Sight ingrains Dagger/Dagger further but does so by encouraging poor play that has the opportunity to ignore all additional Deadeye mechanics beyond refreshing Mark. With what I am proposing, you at least need a modicum of active play to deal good DPS. I don't think this is a bad thing. Of course, I'd ideally want improvements to Malicious Backstab coupled with improvements to Malice scaling of Death's Judgment and a review of the damage of Three Round Burst but Rifle requires a lot more attention before it is in a good place due to how cumbersome the rotation is.

    ok first of all i didnt say buff iron sight to a level rifle gets relevant. its just if you buff only daggers then to get rifles up you need to buff only rifle by alot later because you would now increase the gap between dagger and rifle.
    iron sight only increases damage against marked target, how is that improving your cleave damage?
    so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play and only when managing your resources properly so that you get buffed and the deadeyes that in your eyes that dont deserve it remain at their current power, so that you still get kicked right away out of groups, cool.
    if you now deal 20% more damage then a bad deadeye, then after an ironsight buff you would still deal 20% more damage then a bad deadeye.
    you gave reasons why deadeye needs more damage. but why are you so dead set on your skill being rewarded more, or bad deadeyes being punished more?
    a bad deadeye might have good single target dps compared to other classes when they are played bad, but brings absolutly nothing else. no support and no cleave so thats pretty fair IMO. why does a buff encourge you to play even worse? thats just if the buff is not needed and you already are doing well then you can ease your rotation for the same results after a buff..

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    True, I hadn't considered that it was a buff for single target only - apologies! That's what I get for posting early in the morning! And I know you didn't say buff Iron Sight - that is what "Suppose we go with" represents.

    so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play and only when managing your resources properly so that you get buffed and the deadeyes that in your eyes that dont deserve it remain at their current power, so that you still get kicked right away out of groups, cool.

    Yes - because people can learn to play a profession? It isn't asking much that people who actively play should do better? That DPS should be accessed by knowing what to do? That's a matter of preference - if you want to make changes that raise the skill floor to a point where you can get by spamming auto, fine, but it isn't one I agree with especially when Deadeye can do decent damage already without much input. Again, check gw2raidar and compare 50th percentile performances.

    Anyway, we're getting down the route of setting up straw arguments which are needless when I make so many mistakes when I put ideas forward! :pensive:
    To be clear, "so you want a buff to deadeye that you only can utilize in a specific type of play" is not true when I've already stated I'd like to see Rifle reworked to be viable and improvements to Staff Daredevil.

    You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!

    thats probably true :3

    the issue is you want 2 things in 1 change :
    buff deadeye single target dps.
    increse the gap between good and bad deadeyes.

    while i am fine with buffing deadeye single target damage with a minor change, if we want to increase the gap between good and bad thieves i think a greater rework is needed. i dont think skill would make such a difference with the change you want and mostly just limit it to daggers, but we need complexity to thief PvE rotatiosn to actually make skill matter. for this i think the ini system will need a rework so we need to use both weapon sets and have actually weaponskills in our rotation for their damage not utility to build malice or grant stealth.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Miatela.5047 said:
    You are very welcome to your opinions but I don't think we're going to agree!

    thats probably true :3

    the issue is you want 2 things in 1 change :
    buff deadeye single target dps.
    increse the gap between good and bad deadeyes.

    while i am fine with buffing deadeye single target damage with a minor change, if we want to increase the gap between good and bad thieves i think a greater rework is needed. i dont think skill would make such a difference with the change you want and mostly just limit it to daggers, but we need complexity to thief PvE rotatiosn to actually make skill matter. for this i think the ini system will need a rework so we need to use both weapon sets and have actually weaponskills in our rotation for their damage not utility to build malice or grant stealth.

    I've proposed multiple changes including modifiers on weapon swaps and procs but, in this forum, that gets shot down because "what about the PvP" even when suggesting it as skill splits. Similarly, making the skill floor too high while having a relatively low skill ceiling (base line passive buffs that push auto attack only) is a "what about my PvE" issue in exactly the same way - such changes are detrimental to the game mode. Just as you don't want a Deadeye easily one shotting people with no build up, trade off and counterplay, you don't want a profession that can excel in raid encounters by spamming 1 and pressing F1 every 25 seconds. It trivialises the content.

    Deadeye is not hard to play in PvE. I've already shown that in my logs with the caveat those are by someone who does not have good or even average mechanical skill. There are some tricks that you can do with increased encounter knowledge to build extra Malice but that is no different from learning your match ups and opponents' animations in PvP. That rewards people with a better understanding of the game mode - PvE isn't any different in this respect.

  • Akeno.4962Akeno.4962 Member ✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    the question here is if standing skills are too much like kneeling skills or kneeling ones to much like standing? because staning offers good options to kite while keeping pressure. kneeling has a hard time to keep the distance and it has as stronger damage skill TRB wich is not really sniperlike to spamm shots, i mean you would expect single big hitting projectiles instead.

    Personally, i don't find standing rifle exceptionally good at kiting, it simply adds "hitting at range" and "death retreat" to thief's already good kiting options, but standing rifle is no sword in terms of being in control of the space between the target and you or in terms of providing evades. But since pvp/wvw aren't my main game modes I guess i could be wrong.

    My issue is the following: kneeled rifle deadeye isn't ever going to be a thing in high-level pve (it's based around bursting but weaver/dh/holo have better burst, you give up mobility for mediocre damage) and my feeling is that it is going to swing from extremely obnoxious to extremely disappointing in pvp/wvw/open world pve. But standing rifle could be a completely different thing, and it could make deadeye a more varied spec like firebrand or chronomancer are. You just need a F skill (thief in general severly lacks these skills) to choose which you'll use when changing weapon to rifle, or to change from one to another.

    And regarding the current conversation about d/d deadeye in pve. It find the combo with assassin's signet uninteresting (basically another skill to use for another damage modifier to use with backstab, how original) and the build still has no depth: malice is never sought after (and therefore, you never achieve a full stack) because you can gain and spend malice without much afterthought. It still is a two skill + auto rotation. A flat increase in damage modifiers won't change that, it will give it acceptable dps but the gameplay will still feel boring. Only an increase in any of daggers damage/initiative cost ratio could make a change to a three skill + auto rotation. And I'm still not sure that would be fun to play.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018

    @Akeno.4962 said:
    It find the combo with assassin's signet uninteresting (basically another skill to use for another damage modifier to use with backstab, how original) and the build still has no depth: malice is never sought after (and therefore, you never achieve a full stack) because you can gain and spend malice without much afterthought.

    For what it is worth, that isn't entirely true if you are trying to maximise DPS in PvE. There will be points in the vast majority of encounters where it is a damage increase to use Dancing Dagger to build Malice (Slothasor and Samarog immune phases, VG movements, KC orb collecting, Deimos before the debuff, Dhuum Death Marks to name a few). It then becomes a question of whether or not to hold Assassin's Signet and renewing Deadeye's Mark to build more Malice and aim for a higher modifier Backstab.

    Deadeye has a very simple basic rotation but actually maximising the DPS is trickier due to how Assassin's Signet should be used in conjunction with other skills and Dancing Dagger for building Malice. DPS is already acceptable and some additional modifiers could push it to the strongest single target which would be nice.

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