An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • @Vegeta.2563 said:

    @Evil Crimson Soul.5784 said:
    To be fair I've always played as a thief and I always wanted more out of dead eye, I think this is the push I need to move from daredevil to dead eye now, good update guys!!!:D

    I think the only thing keeping people on Daredevil at this point is the choice of different dodge skills.. and of course the use of staff.

    you might very well be right but taking things to a long range and getting effective kills would be a what would get me into Dead eye more so for WvW :+1:

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    Oooo... Interesting. Gonna be fun to play around with, already got an armor set focused on Boon Duration on one of my Deadeyes, seems like he's getting a buff.

    Not sure about that Sword stealth-attack though...
    Most who run swords are running Acrobatics in conjunction, and the Vigor boost endurance regen along with the initiative evades would make any more Endurance kind of superfluous. I guess we'll see.

    I'm excited regardless.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As for Malice gain on crit this substantially increases the value of Condi/Vitality/Precision stats.

    But that assumes the per malice bonus is significant enough to justify taking extra crit for condi builds.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    Just sitting here wanting the stealth attack cooldown removed because its clunky as kitten.

  • stone cold.8609stone cold.8609 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    It sounds like the new system will be a bit like warrior adrenaline - spend initiative (i.e. attack) to gain malice (i.e. adrenaline). After it is built up, gain a stealth based more powerful attack (i.e. burst). Did I get this right?

    I wonder how the melee builds will work with this and hope there is a good non-sniper rifle based build that will come out of this.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sarge shot Grif.6450 said:
    Welp... I'm super mixed on this and I think it will all boil down to how much, if at all, they changed BQoBK.

    PS: Since this seems to be a thread that the devs are watching I might as well ask a question I've had for a while now. Whenever you're using a rifle with a unique firing sound and mute them it only plays the rifle 2 sound for all shots instead of their own sounds , is this intended or a bug? I really hope it's a bug that can be fixed because I adore the sound design for the rifle ( both rifle 3 skills for example) and I'd love to have predator shots with all correct sounds.

    Also is there a chance for us to get an option to hide unique projectiles (Hope, dreamer, chuka etc) because the projectile effects for deadeye are really nice.

    I am completely the opposite here, I hate the DE rifle sounds. I'm stuck with using Scarlet's Rainbow just because the gunfire sound effect is much more punchy and brutal. I wish they would change the default DE rifle sounds to something less...laser gunny.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭

    Can't say I'm loving these changes from the get-go :/
    Let's see how they do live. Wishing for the best!

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    HYbrid might become more a thing. I have a build using grieving armor in a p/d spec and this switch can be a win win if I am understanding how it intended to work.

    I am also reading that Malice no longer tied to the mark. I am not clear on this that will change the dynamic of the spec.

    S/d builds I used never relied on stealth and the stealth attack a lot and this might change things up for that spec requiring a change in how one plays. If entering stealth key to maximizing a DE build , S/d and s/p in particular might not be as well suited as they are today. D/p might do better in a DE build then it does now.

    Rather then stack malice while parked in stealth, I have always favored popping in and out to launch attacks. The number one issue as I see it is how the specs that do not have ease of stealth access (s/p , p/p , SB and to a lesser degree s/d) will perform under DE.

    While I reserve final judgement until I see the full roll out and changes and test the builds, at this point I am leaning to the positive side.

  • Delweyn.1309Delweyn.1309 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    Well, I suppose the overall changes turn around some points

    • make spe less bursty. Even if it's the goal of the spe, I suppose too many people (victims) were angry about it
    • remove stealth. Because it makes some people (enemies) angry.
    • make spe less skilled. Because I suppose some average sniper weren't able to survive well with quick reflexes, so it's better to make spe with simple mecanic of tank more.

    I may be wrong but ......

  • Nightmare.1234Nightmare.1234 Member ✭✭

    this sounds more complicated than previous. I got a feeling this all just a massive over the top work around to people camping stealth in pvp, building up high stacks and then bursting people down. because they will need to have to fight their target for a bit first to get the high stack modifiers then go into stealth if they want to hit a stealth burst.

    maybe the changes be healthier will have to see how they work.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    I am also reading that Malice no longer tied to the mark. I am not clear on this that will change the dynamic of the spec.

    malice is still tied to the mark.
    you build malice only by hitting the marked target, you spent malice only by hitting your marked targed according to the dev posts on page1.

    S/d builds I used never relied on stealth and the stealth attack a lot and this might change things up for that spec requiring a change in how one plays. If entering stealth key to maximizing a DE build , S/d and s/p in particular might not be as well suited as they are today. D/p might do better in a DE build then it does now.

    problem is that you need to use alot of ini to build up malice and then still need stealth to use that. at least with rifle many wont even survive to the point that i am at full malice.

    Rather then stack malice while parked in stealth, I have always favored popping in and out to launch attacks. The number one issue as I see it is how the specs that do not have ease of stealth access (s/p , p/p , SB and to a lesser degree s/d) will perform under DE.

    the problem i see here is that you will use all your malice on stealth attacks but the build up is too slow and costs too many resources - poping in and out of stealth costs alot of resources, but you will spamm them into malice gain, so you wont pop in and out or wont reach close to max malice

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    Hello to all the sneaky thieves out there! I'm unstealthing today to reveal details of the upcoming changes to the Deadeye profession. In a previous update we increased the damage of rifle skills to put Deadeye in a good spot from a DPS-perspective

    @Robert Gee.9246 While I appreciate the considerable amount of work you and the team have put into redesigning Deadeye (and I sincerely wish that it pays off), I do want to point out that Deadeye is not in a good spot from a DPS-perspective. While it can benchmark almost 33k currently, Deadeye gives up all WASD based mobility, all CC, any additional utility and all cleave to achieve this - and it is still 3k benchmark DPS behind Spellbreaker which offers cleave, the ability to move and CC. Furthermore, Deadeye DPS is incredibly vulnerable to adds body blocking the Malice target since our heavy hitting abilities do not cleave. The current DPS pattern of Deadeye, whether being played with rifle, dagger/dagger or switching between the two offers lower burst damage and lower sustained damage than the accepted power classes of Dragonhunter, Holosmith and Weaver. This is backed up by even a casual glance at relative PvE performance on GW2raidar - I shouldn't be hitting 99th percentile as a Deadeye on a fight such as Samarog and seeing a substantially lower ranked Weaver almost 3k DPS above me (though admittedly, this is the hitbox issue at play and statistical significance and what not).

    I hope Deadeye suffering from poor DPS and heavy handed restrictions is being considered with the redesign since Deadeye can easily end up with engaging and fun mechanics but a lack a reason to be taken to high end PvE content. That would be a shame for something that appears to have had a good degree of thought and effort going into and has some thieves excited and talking for the first time in a long time. I'd personally suggest a single target DPS closer to 37k due to the lack of cleave but I'm sure other opinions on that will vary.

    Anyway, thank you. As anyone that knows me will attest, I've been a vocal complainer about the state of thief, both in general and relative to others. The role and position of Deadeye has been paramount to that so I am really happy that at least Anet seems aware of some of the problems facing thieves and that you are actively trying to make this profession better. For someone like myself, with 4k+ hours on thief but needing to main support in raids because I can rarely justify my DPS slot, the attention and communication means a lot. Thanks!

    Can you elaborate what you do in raids with those permanent revealed on you? You are just saying you can't play deadeye in raids?

    Permanent reveal is only an issue on Deimos and even without clearing it, Deadeye functions fine currently if you are doing the ranged strategy. Other bosses where you get long duration reveal (such as Samarog fixate), you switch to dagger/dagger and simply auto while keeping up Deadeye's Mark and Shadow Flare, taking advantage of the Revealed Training trait. On other bosses, the reveals are not an issue.

    However, I'd hope that the Deimos reveal is reconsidered since it is currently out of line with other bosses and would negatively impact Deadeye after these changes.

    I guess we have to see the benefits of those new stealth attacks, but is it really better than 21% dmg ?

    It sounds like that is being baked into a trait. I hope it is!

  • Spurnshadow.3678Spurnshadow.3678 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    Sounds like this is making sense.

    The only issue I see is having malace spending tied to stealth. There are lots of thieves who don't use a lot of stealth and lots of builds that have 0 stealth. This would ensure that we trait into SA which is unfair trait wise, but also forces us into a certain play style. Perhaps tying malace spending to the Deadeye utilites as well would be good as well for the less stealthy theives.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @stone cold.8609 said:
    It sounds like the new system will be a bit like warrior adrenaline - spend initiative (i.e. attack) to gain malice (i.e. adrenaline). After it is built up, gain a stealth based more powerful attack (i.e. burst). Did I get this right?

    I wonder how the melee builds will work with this and hope there is a good non-sniper rifle based build that will come out of this.

    That's probably the reason I'm not all that interested in this change. If I want to play that type of gameplay, I can play one of my warriors. If they initially released DE as a war inspired thf spec, that would be different. Instead they are taking away one play style to give me another I can already play.

  • Samug.6512Samug.6512 Member ✭✭✭

    Awesome!

    Can we get similar, solid rework for Scrapper too, pretty please? :(

    [NUKE]

  • Kallist.5917Kallist.5917 Member ✭✭✭

    From the sounds of this, can we expect DE rifle to lose a good amount of its DPS? I was able to do just under 1M damage to Teq during a burn phase, Will the damage be comparable now that we have to rebuild Malice every DJ?

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

    1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.
    2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
    3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
    4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
    5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.

    READ THIS POST DEVS.

    Absolutely bloody nailed it. Non of these changes conflict with the core reworks they seem to be making and would make rifle far more fun. I don't mind sacrificing mobility for range and stealth, it gives the class another option and if you don't like it, don't play it. But kneel needs to be quicker, and honestly I'd also remove all damage from retreat so it doesn't break stealth meaning you can re-position a short distance away. It already costs 5 in pvp so you cannot spam it, if it was done right they could make it cost 6 and it would still be viable, while not replacing shortbow which had a much greater range. Also maybe instead of removing cursed bullet just remove the extra kneel damage and make it the standing stealth attack, the new DJ the kneeling one.

  • The rework sounds interesting, always good to get a breath of fresh air. Although I worry it's going to break my interrupt based build but hey! My only question is if this has been confirmed to come out with the underwater skills balance patch?

    Thanks

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MicROpart.7905 said:
    am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

    Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

    We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MicROpart.7905 said:
    am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

    Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

    We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

    Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MicROpart.7905 said:
    am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

    Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

    We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

    Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

    and especially it would be nice to know if we do get options to gain malice aside from the 'hit your marked target with a skill that costs initative'. because that is the main reason that is going against stealth play on DE. you need resources to play with stealth be it in and out or camping, but having to use tons of ini to build malice through attacks - not repositioning / stealthing, will simply leave little room to utilize stealth and is pushing too much into a fixed playstyle.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭

    I think DE appeal's was to have sustained good damage. This build up then release approach is not only lacking originality, but I feel is going to be clunky if locked behind stealth. There so many good suggestions in some threads about how to improve DE. I can't believe Anet went for this.

  • AegisFLCL.7623AegisFLCL.7623 Member ✭✭

    Thieves need a class wide stealth skill built into an F# skill. Certain weapon sets have poor access to stealth forcing all utility skills to be spent on stealth alone if you can even afford to do so with all the condi spam (PvP). For a class to revolve around stealth it shouldn't be shoe horned into taking stealth based utility skills on 2-3 slots to interact with a mechanic the class is supposed to be based around.

    3-4 Second stealth on 30s CD on a new F# skill

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    @AegisFLCL.7623 said:
    Thieves need a class wide stealth skill built into an F# skill. Certain weapon sets have poor access to stealth forcing all utility skills to be spent on stealth alone if you can even afford to do so with all the condi spam (PvP). For a class to revolve around stealth it shouldn't be shoe horned into taking stealth based utility skills on 2-3 slots to interact with a mechanic the class is supposed to be based around.

    3-4 Second stealth on 30s CD on a new F# skill

    wouldnt help much unless got some special DE trait like reset CD of that F skill on successful hitting your marked target with your stealth skill. because for pve 30s is still way too much IMO.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • eldrjth.7384eldrjth.7384 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018

    So with the stealth attacks im guessing you need to activate stealth after getting to full malice? Since you auto attack a lot and would use your stealth attack automatically chaining AA otherwise, losing the ability to accurately time it? The downside is theres really not that much built in access to stealth currently that would make using stealth attacks that frequent outside of offhand dagger/rifle unless there are new traits that assist in getting stealth. If the current DJ is any indication of the dmg output we can expect, then the other reworked stealth attacks need an extreme dmg boost. Also DJ can be used every 6s right now but you cant stealth that frequently, so I wonder where the extra dmg would come from to balance this out?

    Losing the innate 3% dmg from malice is a concern if its not put back into traits somewhere. What if a build doesnt use any sneak attacks at all (i.e. has no stealth utils) would they do less dmg after rework? Id like it if there was a trait atleast that gave a dmg boost based on malice.

    Mercy seems to suit classes that like to reserve malice rather than spend it, but maybe its simply a timing issue given how easy malice can be generated now, maxing out in 3-5 attacks. Also if you were condi based with low precision that might affect how quickly you can generate malice with the additional one generated on crit.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I hope this isn't one of those "good intentions, bad judgement" moments...

  • Elxdark.9702Elxdark.9702 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Are you guys trying to tank this elite to get ready for next expansion? I'm going to have to drop power for precision to kitten around with trying to land as many fire and forget hits as possible so that kitten up my kind of build and stealth setup players are going to have to play more like I currently do or they get no malice at all.

    I don't want to be discouraged from using my Stealth skills. Now stealth skills consume and reset my malice stacks? As it is right now apart from some skills or traits being a bit jankey, a patch fix or two can smooth that out but most play styles can currently operate with Deadeye. This change would favor my build and play style, but it sounds like it would totally dismantle and shelve other playstyles and builds.

    You're basically creating the same feedback loop of skill/initiative to trait modifiers that makes Staff daredevil/acro so fluid as a melee frontline build but with Malice and range because why?

    Try reading the post, hello? Yes, they consume your malice but youa lso gain it WAY faster

    Maybe, but what does that ultimately mean for DPS... old rotation was ofc auto-attack and then DJ as soon as you have initiative for it which is admittedly boring, yes. New DJ being a stealth attack means it won't cost init, and you'll have to spend init to boost its DPS by adding malice stacks, and it only did competitive DPS if it was getting the bonus from 7 stacks of malice... basically if it isn't casting a 7 stack DJ at the same speed as before, it will be a DPS loss period, unless some other things are getting major major reworks... that's not even mentioning cool-downs for entering stealth in the first place and we also don't know if DJ is a kneeling stealth attack only or if it's a standing one too... and if it's both what benefit does the kneel give? It wouldn't be the first time a rework gutted a class, and if not done VERY carefully this one (with limited information being released) might VERY likely do exactly that.

    Any skill that spends initiative and deals strike damage to your mark will generate 1 malice.
    If that skill critical hits you will gain 1 additional malice.

    These are two points from the OP... it's important to note they are not separate. You will not gain malice from auto-attack crits, only from crits that occur during skills that spend initiative. Not only will we have to build malice fast enough to get DJ off at the same rate, we'll have to do it on an initiative cost, so we'll need our init to regen at a rate that gets us the same DJ rate, or we will lose DPS. To get a full seven stacks you need 4 initiative spending attacks, they need to be cheap, they need to be fast, and they need to be able to fill init quickly or this spec WILL be dead in pve, completely. There won't be a viable build. It's already bottom of the barrel, and that will kill it.

    what? you're saying that I actually need to play the game now to get my burst and damage??? instead of waiting in stealth for 5 minutes while taking my coffee??? wow i quit.

    Trash NA thief HITZER
    twitch

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @Elxdark.9702 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @kash.9213 said:
    Are you guys trying to tank this elite to get ready for next expansion? I'm going to have to drop power for precision to kitten around with trying to land as many fire and forget hits as possible so that kitten up my kind of build and stealth setup players are going to have to play more like I currently do or they get no malice at all.

    I don't want to be discouraged from using my Stealth skills. Now stealth skills consume and reset my malice stacks? As it is right now apart from some skills or traits being a bit jankey, a patch fix or two can smooth that out but most play styles can currently operate with Deadeye. This change would favor my build and play style, but it sounds like it would totally dismantle and shelve other playstyles and builds.

    You're basically creating the same feedback loop of skill/initiative to trait modifiers that makes Staff daredevil/acro so fluid as a melee frontline build but with Malice and range because why?

    Try reading the post, hello? Yes, they consume your malice but youa lso gain it WAY faster

    Maybe, but what does that ultimately mean for DPS... old rotation was ofc auto-attack and then DJ as soon as you have initiative for it which is admittedly boring, yes. New DJ being a stealth attack means it won't cost init, and you'll have to spend init to boost its DPS by adding malice stacks, and it only did competitive DPS if it was getting the bonus from 7 stacks of malice... basically if it isn't casting a 7 stack DJ at the same speed as before, it will be a DPS loss period, unless some other things are getting major major reworks... that's not even mentioning cool-downs for entering stealth in the first place and we also don't know if DJ is a kneeling stealth attack only or if it's a standing one too... and if it's both what benefit does the kneel give? It wouldn't be the first time a rework gutted a class, and if not done VERY carefully this one (with limited information being released) might VERY likely do exactly that.

    Any skill that spends initiative and deals strike damage to your mark will generate 1 malice.
    If that skill critical hits you will gain 1 additional malice.

    These are two points from the OP... it's important to note they are not separate. You will not gain malice from auto-attack crits, only from crits that occur during skills that spend initiative. Not only will we have to build malice fast enough to get DJ off at the same rate, we'll have to do it on an initiative cost, so we'll need our init to regen at a rate that gets us the same DJ rate, or we will lose DPS. To get a full seven stacks you need 4 initiative spending attacks, they need to be cheap, they need to be fast, and they need to be able to fill init quickly or this spec WILL be dead in pve, completely. There won't be a viable build. It's already bottom of the barrel, and that will kill it.

    what? you're saying that I actually need to play the game now to get my burst and damage??? instead of waiting in stealth for 5 minutes while taking my coffee??? wow i quit.

    I'm saying that, while this may be good for PvP and WvW... in fact it almost certainly is... it will likely destroy deadeye for PvE once and for all (it's already at the bottom of the DPS race charts with Daredevil). Are we back in the habit of sacrificing one game mode for another? Last I checked this was considered terrible design. It's especially egregious because the post makes a point of going "We finally got Deadeye DPS in an okay place so now we want to make the mechanics more interesting" directly before highlighting changes that will almost definitely make the DPS even worse that it was before the rifle damage increases.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I hope this isn't one of those "good intentions, bad judgement" moments...

    Good intentions, death's judgement?

    But seriously, if you guys want to make this change, does it not work to make this malice-powered sneak attack style a trait to opt into? I'm sure someone can make such a style work with specific build conditions...but there's other builds that become obsolete if its mandatory.

  • Almondjoy.8964Almondjoy.8964 Member ✭✭

    @eldrjth.7384 said:
    So with the stealth attacks im guessing you need to activate stealth after getting to full malice? Since you auto attack a lot and would use your stealth attack automatically chaining AA otherwise, losing the ability to accurately time it? The downside is theres really not that much built in access to stealth currently that would make using stealth attacks that frequent outside of offhand dagger/rifle unless there are new traits that assist in getting stealth. If the current DJ is any indication of the dmg output we can expect, then the other reworked stealth attacks need an extreme dmg boost. Also DJ can be used every 6s right now but you cant stealth that frequently, so I wonder where the extra dmg would come from to balance this out?

    Losing the innate 3% dmg from malice is a concern if its not put back into traits somewhere. What if a build doesnt use any sneak attacks at all (i.e. has no stealth utils) would they do less dmg after rework? Id like it if there was a trait atleast that gave a dmg boost based on malice.

    Mercy seems to suit classes that like to reserve malice rather than spend it, but maybe its simply a timing issue given how easy malice can be generated now, maxing out in 3-5 attacks. Also if you were condi based with low precision that might affect how quickly you can generate malice with the additional one generated on crit.

    This is my primary concern as a Deadeye who actually uses the rifle. Overall I like, or actually love the concept that they are going for with the rework but I feel there is gonna be a huge damage drop off if we don't get to keep using DJ at max malice. Even if we do get max faster spending to get it and getting stealth to use it in longer encounters like bosses is an issue. DE does have ample stealth options. Between the the elite skill (thats 2 because charges), Gust, the new kneel 4 I assume is gonna grant stealth via traits. But idk if we can up keep up the initive expenditure between using triple shot to get malice and new kneel 4 using initive to get stealth unless both DJ and kneel 4 dont use initive or just stack utility bar with stealth skills that all have 30 sec CD getting rid of any utility you can provide. Its a head scratcher, im almost willing to bet perfectionist is gonna refund some initiative thats the only way I see this working in a regular rotation without stealth stack. I am excited to hear them adding malice to work with stealth attacks opening other avenues for other weapon builds. Which is pretty cool. All in all, Im unfortunately more excited for other weapon builds rather than my ascended zerker rifle I just made... but we will see. This is all based off a post that was cleary hiding some info to not spoil the surprise, I can't wait!

  • @Will.9785 said:

    @Comprissent.3856 said:
    So +180 Concentration and then deadeye gives no unique boons that chrono doesn't, so you need a chrono to give you boons to make this trait effective, but then you have no reason to have that concentration cuz chrono is just doing it all???? This is almost even worse

    You aren't wrong. The boon duration is completely wasted in a group situation and next-to-worthless solo (12% is basically nothing).

    You can run a boon share thief already, Trickery/acro/deadeye. you wont max your damage out but if boon share is something you want to do you can absolutely do it. Ive ran it a few times to fill in gaps.

  • Not sure how I feel about this. I don't mind that they're changing how you get malice, but I DON'T like how their changing malice overall. I for one love how we get increased damage with each stack of it, because for me, I can kill things a bit faster with the way it currently is. I don't mind them getting rid of CB, but if the utility skill that get its effect isn't unblockable, I'm gonna be pretty pissed. Also not liking the fact that malice is being used to power up stealth attack skills. I feel like they could have kept the increased damage per stack of malice, while still having it be used to power up stealth attacks. That way it would involve a bit of strategy in terms of when to remove the malice.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭

    @Guardian Summoner.5931 said:

    @Will.9785 said:

    @Comprissent.3856 said:
    So +180 Concentration and then deadeye gives no unique boons that chrono doesn't, so you need a chrono to give you boons to make this trait effective, but then you have no reason to have that concentration cuz chrono is just doing it all???? This is almost even worse

    You aren't wrong. The boon duration is completely wasted in a group situation and next-to-worthless solo (12% is basically nothing).

    You can run a boon share thief already, Trickery/acro/deadeye. you wont max your damage out but if boon share is something you want to do you can absolutely do it. Ive ran it a few times to fill in gaps.

    Acrobatics doesn't do anything for the people you're trying to share boons to, so I think it's better to go with Deadly Arts with Improvisation instead of Acrobatics if you want to run a boonshare thief. That single mark can turn into a 10 seconds of 1 might, vigor, fury and swiftness, and 16 stacks of might at 12 seconds, plus a double-cast of whatever you roll on your Stolen Skill. Run Mercy, and you'll double those numbers.

    If you need boon-duration, could just use foods or Leadership runes instead.

  • Interesting changes although I'm somewhat worried about the changes to be honest. I'm probably in the very small minority here but I rather enjoy playing condi Deadeye. I do hope that the traits like Peripheral Vision and One in the Chambers aren't changed around in such a way that it makes condi deadeye unviable.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MicROpart.7905 said:
    am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

    Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

    We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

    Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

    and especially it would be nice to know if we do get options to gain malice aside from the 'hit your marked target with a skill that costs initative'. because that is the main reason that is going against stealth play on DE. you need resources to play with stealth be it in and out or camping, but having to use tons of ini to build malice through attacks - not repositioning / stealthing, will simply leave little room to utilize stealth and is pushing too much into a fixed playstyle.

    I mean Skirmisher's Shot only costs 3 initiative and if you crit you get 2 per cast. Maxing default malice only requires 3 casts which is nearly just a BP+HS, or would only require 4 casts or 12 init for M7 maxed out which is the same as doing an aggressive BP+HS+SShot+Backstab.

    Using this in conjunction with Meld for just one application of stealth for a stealth burst combo is basically the same as anything else.

    The difference is just you have to apply some continuous pressure beforehand instead of just autokilling someone by eventually landing a DJ and using Meld as a free reset if you fail to land the combo the first two tries.

    It really comes down to the full details of the changes, though. The concern about the goal being accomplished or not is absolutely valid, but the intent being there is a start. Frankly, I think if ANet really wanted feedback to make the best changes, they'd have asked for it and/or given us full details of what's changing to discuss more thoroughly than just a few notes as to what's happening for the sake of giving people a heads up.

    Which is kind of a shame because I think that back-and-forth as far as discussion goes is necessary for a lot of things in the game right now, but I digress.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @MicROpart.7905 said:
    am I the only one think that this change is make deadeye alot useless now? the class called deadeye, using rifle as sniper rifle, whic the point is to "kill fast as posible, without drawing to much attention" now they change the malice to only generate if u hit them, whic taking much more more more time to kill.. dahell? better scrap the name "deadeye" and change it to something else like, "I'll poke u first so I can kill u", I'm sorry but i have to say this is ridiculous..

    Not everyone wanted the Deadeye to be something that camped stealth. Permastealth + Nuke is unhealthy design and makes for horrendously boring gameplay for a majority of people.

    We agree on this, and can’t be said enough! Great post!

    Micropart is right though as well as MUDse, why are we calling this a Deadeye then and what are we trying to make this elite into? This proposed change sounds more like an old 80's action movie, spray shooting from the hip running at full speed to try to land as many crits as we can. As it is we can build our DE's for multiple play styles, that doesn't sound like the case post change. DE's look likely to be funneled into an optimal sequence, optimal weapon set, and likely traits unless there's more fleshed out details they haven't shared yet about how fluid stealthing with rifle, pistol, etc will be and how many build choices traits will allow to limit any favoring of one stealth attack over others and what kind of damage increases we can get.

    and especially it would be nice to know if we do get options to gain malice aside from the 'hit your marked target with a skill that costs initative'. because that is the main reason that is going against stealth play on DE. you need resources to play with stealth be it in and out or camping, but having to use tons of ini to build malice through attacks - not repositioning / stealthing, will simply leave little room to utilize stealth and is pushing too much into a fixed playstyle.

    I mean Skirmisher's Shot only costs 3 initiative and if you crit you get 2 per cast. Maxing default malice only requires 3 casts which is nearly just a BP+HS, or would only require 4 casts or 12 init for M7 maxed out which is the same as doing an aggressive BP+HS+SShot+Backstab.

    BP+ HS if both hit so done in melee or with shadow step / infiltrators signet will give 4 malice not 5 and only if both crit. BP+HS +SS into backstab means your SS didnt hit the opponent again only 4 malice if BS+HS both hit and both crit.

    Using this in conjunction with Meld for just one application of stealth for a stealth burst combo is basically the same as anything else.

    trying to use meld in interrupt range will get interrupted by most half decent opponents. currently if i have to use it, i will do so on range or with shadow step unless i know my surrounding opponents are terrible. if i dont do that i pretty much ask to get killed.

    The difference is just you have to apply some continuous pressure beforehand instead of just autokilling someone by eventually landing a DJ and using Meld as a free reset if you fail to land the combo the first two tries.

    the problem is that you have to attack the mark with an ini costing skill. if you would get it for AA or even attacking someone else , then you still couldnt stealth camp but you wouldnt be forced throw all your ini on your target to get malice up.

    It really comes down to the full details of the changes, though. The concern about the goal being accomplished or not is absolutely valid, but the intent being there is a start. Frankly, I think if ANet really wanted feedback to make the best changes, they'd have asked for it and/or given us full details of what's changing to discuss more thoroughly than just a few notes as to what's happening for the sake of giving people a heads up.

    Which is kind of a shame because I think that back-and-forth as far as discussion goes is necessary for a lot of things in the game right now, but I digress.

    that is correct. i fear they are going to miss their own goals with that change. mainly because of the malice build up or you can improve it by alot with traits.

    they wanted malice to not be just passive ticking but they also removed another thing from malice, it didnt cost resources so far and i dont see how we get those back now. on top of being pushed to a specific playstyle because of malice. if you were already constantly attacking only your marked target, with mainly ini costing skills then you wont be affected much by that change. in fights were i wasnt forced to stealth camp i still did mainly attack with AA / CB and only sometimes skirmishers shot for cripple while mainly using ini for DR and short stealth for targetbreak + CB. with the new system it will take ages to fill up malice that way and i cant use stealth attack like before as it would reset malice. so before malice is up i will then break stealth with skirmishers shot to be able to AA again without losing malice. very few opponents will be able to tank all that damage that i would have to trow against them to even build malice up . skirmishers shot deals like 4-8k dmg and AA just a little lower, therefor i will rarely be able to use that malice at max stacks.
    remember: i didnt run trickery 3x skirmishers shot = 3/4 of my ini. i could use 3x skirmishers into slient scope (wich will be removed as well) and DJ and at this point be on 2-3 ini at most. then DJ would have to be alot faster with less tells, because you would be pretty much dead after failing to hit a skill with one of the biggest tells in game , when hitting DJ i dont expect it to hit against good opponents its just forcing evades. if i compare that with my mesmer, mesmer would still be easier to escape with then on a DE with 0 ini and mesmer burst is alot faster with not soo obvious tells as DJ.
    but who knows maybe i am just panicing and there will be traits who will give us the cheap stealth access needed to use the malice or the ini gain needed to build the malice.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Any reduction in overall damage done in isolation to the DE spec will risk making it unviable. The fact of the matter is contrary to claims made there a number of classes that can pump out 10k and more on single attacks , these other specs not having to worry about having only 11k health. Thief needs to be bursty and needs to hit very hard when it does hit because they that flimsy.

    The risk that occurs when trying to build malice via INI type attacks is that the thief will not survive counter attacks long enough to get off that Malice enhanced shot. If Malice building type attacks are doing 5k and some soulbeast or warrior can hit that thief in turn for 10k , it game over for the thief before he even gets to that maximized malice.

    Obviously a lot depends on what other changes made , but if there not enough utility and survival in the rest of the Rifle spec , along with an ability to make kills without having to rely on that sneak attack the "Build up Malice via INI expenditure so as to get the big attack in" will not work.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    My biggest problem with DE one shot was how easy it is to escape if you mess up. Shadowmeld was just a plain bad idea. If your going to be able to one shot someone there needs to be some massive penalties if you mess up. But then again, low risk gameplay has always been a problem with the thief.

    if you mess up, it is too late for shadow meld because if you try to use shadow meld while pressured you will most probably get interrupted or die.
    you are really messed up only if you get pressured while instant stealth (blinding powder) and shadow step are on cooldown. those 2 are the ones getting you out of every situation, shadow meld is only usefull in group fights were there is not much attention to you and with that you can reduce the reveal time to keep it like that.
    and most thief buiild rely on exactly those utilities to get out of bad situations , DD maybe uses bandits defense aswell and steal as it is also instant so a DD has alot more stuff that needs to be on CD to mess up then DE. but with range advantage in case of a rifle DE you dont get into bad situations as often as on DD.

    aside from that agree with your post.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

    1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.
    2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
    3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
    4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
    5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.

    READ THIS POST DEVS.

    you are my hero.

    THANK YOU. READ IT DEVS.

  • I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

  • Almondjoy.8964Almondjoy.8964 Member ✭✭

    @MudkipLover.3792 said:
    Not sure how I feel about this. I don't mind that they're changing how you get malice, but I DON'T like how their changing malice overall. I for one love how we get increased damage with each stack of it, because for me, I can kill things a bit faster with the way it currently is. I don't mind them getting rid of CB, but if the utility skill that get its effect isn't unblockable, I'm gonna be pretty pissed. Also not liking the fact that malice is being used to power up stealth attack skills. I feel like they could have kept the increased damage per stack of malice, while still having it be used to power up stealth attacks. That way it would involve a bit of strategy in terms of when to remove the malice.

    They already confirmed that you will still be able to get the 3% damage per malice, just via traits. Cursed Bullet being gone sucks but im sure they have given us some traits that will help make this play style work. We cannot freak out over a post like this. We just gotta see what the update brings.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    hi this is my first post and i felt the need to chime in after reading the dev post.

    i play deadeye and tempest (dps and support+dps respectively) but i try to main deadeye and am sad i can't take it to higher end pve content compared to my elem. while the balance changes would be a response to all the complaints about DJ snipers in WvW, i feel they should keep these new changes for WvW and PvP only if they must. For PvE, in my opinion, the class is already so simple and easy to understand there's no complexity at all in how to play deadeye in PvE and yet despite this we aren't loved in groups because not only do we not give supportive buffs to the party/squad but we also do not have the dps to make up for the loss of support so they'd rather take other classes for the dps role. i feel a straight up damage buff for PvE DE and DD should be done instead of these malice mechanic changes

    @FreundHein.2739 said:
    I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

    i feel the same way and feel like it will be clunky (stealthing in and out to DJ and then rebuilding your malice).

    @keramatzmode.1906 said:

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

    1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.
    2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
    3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
    4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
    5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.

    READ THIS POST DEVS.

    you are my hero.

    THANK YOU. READ IT DEVS.

    THIS. SO. MUCH.

    though it is for pvp, i feel like some changes like the rifle range and alternatives to kneel rifle would be good for pve

  • Akeno.4962Akeno.4962 Member ✭✭

    @FreundHein.2739 said:
    I have a strong feeling that it's not the best changes for PvE players.

    DE's position in pve has always been feeble. In open world you can use one-trick-pony "be quick or be killed" or use rifle at max range. In raids, you either give up all movement with rifle for mediocre damage or you go back to backstab d/d for even less damage. Let's say that DE wasn't very thought-out for pve, and hope the rework comes with better solutions.

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