An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • sneakytails.5629sneakytails.5629 Member ✭✭✭

    I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

    Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

    I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @sneakytails.5629 said:
    I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

    Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

    I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

    what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭

    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye (I'm just not high enough in Hero Points to get the profession yet in PvE), I feel like this update is a great thing. First, it will let us have more room for versatility, as I currently see two types of DE (with rifles): ones who ambush and ones who attack continuously. I have been called cheater before as an ambush DE, just to prove that ambushing is counter-productive if you look at it through the game's eyes. As I see this update, it will not only let us still be able to minimally ambush, but also gain more Stealth possibilities, increased survivability and more damage over time. I'm not a great Deadeye, I make a lot of mistakes (it's been two weeks I've been playing my PVP DE so), but as to my slight experience in the class, I believe it is for the best to let us still stealth, making DJ a stealth attack meaning we still get that sniper feel to ambush DEs.

    Although I must say, this update also scares me a lot. I'm kind of contradicting myself. I feel like making us need to attack (which reveals us) to gain malice is more of a nerf to DEs than anything else. First, you have to spend ini to be able to gain malice. As a Perfect-7 (I forgot the trait name but it's the one that gives Perfectionist while hitting 7 stacks of Malice), I feel like I'll have to be unstealthed (decreasing my survivability in unranked PVP) to gain access to Malice. That is totally on the opposite side of what devs want to do, right? And I quote: "Finally, the Deadeye was already leaning towards being a stealth-based character due to its elite skill Shadow Meld and utility skill Shadow Gust, so we felt that having malice slot into the stealth attack was a natural fit." Yeah, we get that DJ stealth attack that will probably be very good, but to what price? Ambush DEs are great at that: ambushing, waiting, killing. So removing that ambushing part because you need to stack malice... it makes me uneasy, but I won't pass a judgment until I see our new rifle skills, our new traits, and our new utilities.

    Well, I feel like this update was much needed anyways, in a gameplay term. Ambush DEs specifically were running a lot (I must say, waiting is my specialty, so making my strategy all changed... salty and bitter in taste, but it may be for the best) on... well waiting and making a lot of damage on single targets, which meant we didn't have the mechanics of DE into ourselves: SR-Kneel-Kneel, SB#5 to move, Signet of Power+F1+(that skill that imobilizes the target for a few seconds if marked)+DJ and the target was dead, which meant that it was a plain, boring and totally unproductive way to win fights XD

    I don't know if the update is a nerf or an upgrade yet, and I hope it won't nerf DEs to be "Oh, Deadeye there, let's focus him, it can't solo us anyways" type of update. But I also see some new strategies being created, and a bit of flexibility as to how DEs (whether using rifles or not) will play, letting us customize our gameplay. I can't wait to see the update and to practice myself ^^

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:
    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye...

    That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from both sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

    Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

    With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

    I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

  • sneakytails.5629sneakytails.5629 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @sneakytails.5629 said:
    I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

    Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

    I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

    what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

    There is no comparison between the current DJ which is fired while revealed and the new DJ which will be fired from stealth. The former allows counter-play, the latter does not because its too late, you dont see the DE until after you take the 20k hit.

    The only real counter to stealth DJ is revealed which as I mentioned before can easily be made worthless with SM.

    That is why I feel the current DJ is better, there is a trade-off when you use it.

  • Almondjoy.8964Almondjoy.8964 Member ✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:
    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye...

    That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from both sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

    Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

    With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

    I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

    THIS ^^^ as a PVE Deadeye I just hope it will good or the same as DPS. I will be trying that D/D build or D/P though. I do have faith in the devs though and im more excited than angry or nervous.

  • cyberwolf.5830cyberwolf.5830 Member ✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    Since you want more stealth gameplay can you please remove/reduce stealth skills cooldown and reduce initiative for CnD?
    Or also give back some initiative if CnD hit the target if you don't want to just reduce it

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:
    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye...

    That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. ...

    Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation

    exactly this. not everyone is a PvP player and for PvE i don't understand the dev claim of making it more simple and easier to understand with the new upcoming system when the system for it as it is now already makes DE the easiest and most simple class to playin PvE imo - they're going to take the one thing we have going for us and from what details they released to us it doesn't sound like they'll up our base damage by a lot to make up for the loss of DJ spamming in PvE.

    tbh, i do hope for any class changes they make in the future for any spec, i wish that the devs would just open a thread and sit down with us and discuss with the community how to fix the less loved specs instead of just popping up and say "oh hey we heard ya'll and we think this is the best way to fix..." or atleast they read all of our comments here and make necessary adjustments.... but that's wishing for too much :(

  • DragonSlayer.1087DragonSlayer.1087 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:
    Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

    OMG This! >.>
    Unless they increase the range and make the projectile faster....

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    So I'm somewhat concerned with my damage output. It seems like all of my damage will now only come from DJs in stealth. So I need to have all of the stealth abilities on my bar (limiting my choice) so that when I do have full malice I can actually use it. If I use my kneel to do higher damage then I wont have access to that stealth right? I'm having a hard time envisioning the rotation for the new rifle deadeye. Any clarification would be amazing!

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:
    Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

    Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:
    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye...

    That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from both sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

    Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

    With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

    I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

    I couldn't agree with you more on the PvP aspect. Although I may want to understand... isn't there also other weapons that cost less initiative when activating their skills? I can't remember precisely, but let's say SB #2 hits multiple times (I know they don't stack malice, but they give better chance at crits), and it costs 3 ini. Thus, it needs 4 critical hits done four times, and 12 ini, then your malice is up and doesn't go down until you hit with a stealth attack. We're talking strategy here, but I get what you mean. Rifles in PvE are tough to play! They are meant for PvP I believe? But it also goes against the "Anyone can be anything" mantra of GW2.

    I guess we just need to wait and see what the devs have made for us. I was commenting because there,s quite a few "Yay, we're getting nerfed when we're already weak" comments, where their commenters didn't seem to understand how the showed mechanics functionned XD.

  • @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:
    Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

    Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

    I don't understand what you mean. What does the auto attack have to do with malice losing the passive dmg buff or with malice requiring you to do dmg with initiative costing skills to build ? Not to mention that apparently deadeyes now has to build around using their stealth attack to maximise malice usage.

    And since you mention spamming how is spamming 3 round burst to build malice to then stealth into DJ any different from spamming autos until malice got full and you used DJ ?

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    So without stealth malice is useless? So we need as much stealth as possible to actually utilize it?

  • Sojourner.4621Sojourner.4621 Member ✭✭✭

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:

    @Sojourner.4621 said:

    @DigiQWill.6378 said:
    As I have seen people react, I wanted to give my two cents on the matter.

    To start with, I must say: why are you players reacting so negatively? You do not know what new traits await, you do not know what new skills await, heck, you don't even know what new utilities we may have!

    As a PvP Deadeye...

    That's mostly why people are reacting negatively. Not everyone is a pvp player. With how bad the matchmaking is, it can actually be inferred that the majority of people are not pvp players. You'll get no argument from me that these changes are probably very good for pvp and wvw. I would in fact make the case that this addresses a lot of the complaints about Deadeye from both sides of the argument, those facing deadeyes and those playing them. This gives more non rifle options, allows the spec to feel more complete and less bound to rifle, and also gives more defensive counter-play to the deadeye itself at first glance. It also removes the Deadeye from perma stealth which is always semi-cancerous in pvp environments.

    Here's the issue... in PvE thief is already barely accepted on either of its elite specs for both raids and fractals. They are considered the bottom of the DPS ladder, with every other "viable" DPS spec out-pacing it in both damage and utility. The only thing Deadeye has going for it is its supremely easy rotation, which makes its actual raid dps vs. its golem dps a much smaller gap than what many classes have. The base damage of the Deadeye rifle is not very impressive, so the DPS rotation heavily relies on casting a roughly 50k Death's Judgement at 7 malice stacks every 6 seconds.

    With the proposed changes as outlined, a) you only gain malice from skills that spend initiative, one for damage, one extra for crits for a max of 2, meaning seven stacks requires 4 initiative cost skills (the cheapest skill currently on rifle that does damage is 3 init, so 12 initiative total to max malice. Obviously they haven't listed the reworked rifle skills with Cursed Bullet being removed and DJ being moved to the stealth attack, so who knows what that will actually look like.) and b) you can only cast DJ from stealth. In order to do the same DPS with only what we've been given so far, we would need to be able to regain 12 initiative, AND have a stealth skill off cool-down every 6 seconds. PvE Deadeyes are understandably concerned.

    I should mention and It is interesting to note, however, that deadeye Dagger Dagger does close (though not quite as much) to the same DPS as the rifle version. If they are taking Backstab and adding a damage bonus based on malice stacks, it could potentially push a D/D Deadeye build to the forefront of the thief's DPS specs depending on how high that damage bonus is.

    I couldn't agree with you more on the PvP aspect. Although I may want to understand... isn't there also other weapons that cost less initiative when activating their skills? I can't remember precisely, but let's say SB #2 hits multiple times (I know they don't stack malice, but they give better chance at crits), and it costs 3 ini. Thus, it needs 4 critical hits done four times, and 12 ini, then your malice is up and doesn't go down until you hit with a stealth attack. We're talking strategy here, but I get what you mean. Rifles in PvE are tough to play! They are meant for PvP I believe? But it also goes against the "Anyone can be anything" mantra of GW2.

    I guess we just need to wait and see what the devs have made for us. I was commenting because there,s quite a few "Yay, we're getting nerfed when we're already weak" comments, where their commenters didn't seem to understand how the showed mechanics functionned XD.

    No, the minimum initiative cost for any skill is 3, and even if it weren't, weapon swap still has a longer cool-down on thief than 6 seconds so it still eliminates the ability to get stacks up on one weapon, then swap to rifle and use DJ at the same rate, which is the source of all the DPS on deadeye in PvE at the moment.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2018

    with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

    They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    @Scud.5067 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

    They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

    I believe in WoW the combo points now stack on the rogue as a qol issue.

  • Asur.9178Asur.9178 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:
    In a previous update we increased the damage of rifle skills to put Deadeye in a good spot from a DPS-perspective, so this update is focused more around improving their gameplay patterns and mechanics.

    Considering the whole change to rifle DPS was done through a single skill, which has now become exclusive to stealth, I hope your overall changes balances this out because otherwise you effectively killed the DPS boost you gave rifle because you decided to do it through a single skill.

    We will find out come Tuesday, but I hope you will not let me down. Time will tell!

  • Scud.5067Scud.5067 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:

    @Scud.5067 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:
    with the new upcoming system there's also the issue of the deadeye not being able to switch targets such as weak adds that may be vital to certain mechanics because he/she has to focus on his mark (boss) to build up malice and do decent (im not expecting for great) DPS since it no longer builds up over time but instead on INI strikes to your mark. also when an add/trash body blocks the boss (2 is our only pierce/aoe attack on rifle) it would deny malice build up. these are things that aren't issues on PvP/WvW but is a concern on PvE

    They should probably go the whole way, after adopting a WoW-esque Combo point system, and have the combo points stick on the target rather than the thief.

    I believe in WoW the combo points now stack on the rogue as a qol issue.

    Ah yes, you're right. Got mixed up.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sneakytails.5629 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @sneakytails.5629 said:
    I thought there was more counter play to the current style of DE, where the hardest hitting attack Deaths Judgement happened out of stealth and had tells.

    Now it seems like it will be the opposite, very little counter-play to the attack you actually need to be aware of.

    I would not have a problem with this if revealed was not so easily removed by DE's Shadow Meld, but since it is this just seems like a really bad idea.

    what has shadow meld got to do with counters to deaths judgement? shadow meld counters reveal not deaths judgement. with new deaths judement sure reveal will be one aditional counter to avoid it being cast, but man you should be able to already avoid most of those oneshots. using shadow meld then to be able to cast DJ altho you revealed the DE before is same as using BV to shoot DJ thorugh reflect. both on elite slot so you got to choose wich counter for DJ you want to ignore, there are allways plenty others left, most importantly evading - works allways.

    There is no comparison between the current DJ which is fired while revealed and the new DJ which will be fired from stealth. The former allows counter-play, the latter does not because its too late, you dont see the DE until after you take the 20k hit.

    The only real counter to stealth DJ is revealed which as I mentioned before can easily be made worthless with SM.

    That is why I feel the current DJ is better, there is a trade-off when you use it.

    they just said the new DJ will be a stealth attack, nothing about a rework to the tells.
    stealth attacks are AA skill that a thief gets while in stealth. so this just means in order to start casting the new DJ you need to be in stealth.
    but it might still reveal you like it does now.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @Arakiel GhostEyes.4598 said:
    Can't wait to do even less dmg and be unable to build malice cause of evade spam, stealth, general mesmeryness or just being out of range and obstructed all the time.

    Well obviously, they'll tack on some kind of buff to your auto attack for 3 shots to super charge your damage after a successful DJ...because spamming autos, that's more compelling gameplay!

    I don't understand what you mean. What does the auto attack have to do with malice losing the passive dmg buff or with malice requiring you to do dmg with initiative costing skills to build ? Not to mention that apparently deadeyes now has to build around using their stealth attack to maximise malice usage.

    And since you mention spamming how is spamming 3 round burst to build malice to then stealth into DJ any different from spamming autos until malice got full and you used DJ ?

    Well I say that because there's no rule stating you need full malice (or any malice) to use DJ. To counter your complaint of being unable to hit the target enough, the devs would likely give you some watered down alternative to the previous style with the suggestion that it's more active and compelling than how it used to be. In the perspective of PvP (which I'm not a PvPer), I bet nothing will be done to compensate the projectile hate that Cursed Bullet dealt with but you'll now be forced to use stealth to attain the damage you had before minus the unblockable shot.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @Bazsi.2734 said:
    What I like:
    - taking away passive malice regen. Marking someone from stealth and waiting for Malicious Seven to proc is dumb and it needs to go.

    the passive malice regen did perfectly what this system was designed for, to give the victim enough time and warning before the big hitter. waiting in stealth for M7 is therefor just minimizing those warnings and you pay with having to wait longer. passive regen also allowed malice to be gained while kiting, evading enemy attacks etc or poking with AA, if you did run silent scope you needed 9 ini to kneel + DJ when its up so you were not able to deplete your ini while kiting and poking if you wanted to apply a killing DJ, because base you just have 12 ini.
    the reason behind malice change was also not that this playstyle was dumb as you say but because it was 'confusing' that you as a DE did not know when you will have your next malice as mentioned in the OP :

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    This system was built to allow for very high damage attacks with enough warning to the victim that there would be room for counterplay.
    However while we feel the current system is effective at these goals, it is also confusing. It's difficult to understand how much of a benefit you get from attacking your mark and to calculate when your next malice gain will occur.

    therefor i proposed to give additional to the current proposed malice gain 1 more malice simply for using a skill that costs ini. because then you also get malice if your target evades, blocks, invuln or if you use skills that rarely will hit like death's retreat, infiltrators shot , infiltrators return etc. and it still will not be more 'confusing' for the deadeye as every malice gain is still based on an action and hitting the mark is still rewareded in faster malice gain. ofc in this case kneel has to cost 0 ini to avoid abuse, its already CD based anyway.

    What I dont like:
    - the rifle skill rework sounds awful... nothing screams thief like "defensive barrier". I have no problem with deciding when and where to kneel in pvp matches. Of course you have to learn it, it makes you vulnerable, thats the whole point! It adds a skillcap to an otherwise painfully simplistic spec.

    while i dont mind having a defensive barrier, you know on top - i still would prefer having stealth access on rifle, especially if our malice is used on stealth attacks.
    tho maybe we dont even lose the stealth i am not exactly sure about that. because they said :

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    With these changes, the iconic Deadeye malice skill, Death's Judgment, is also becoming a stealth attack. This gave us room to make some adjustments to the rest of the rifle skills in order to address its somewhat stale gameplay loop. Kneel and the Silent Scope trait have been changed to allow for more flexible kneeling and stealth while Sniper's Cover has been totally reworked into a new defensive skill that fills the slot previously occupied by Death's Judgement. This new skill creates a defensive barrier while kneeling that can combo with other thief abilities. When taken together, these changes help to give each rifle skill a more defined purpose and allow rifle wielders to handle a larger variety of combat situations.

    therefor we probably have a different traited stealth access ( silent scope was changed for that not snipers cover) and a barrier on the freed slot on top( instead of snipers cover).

    • Cursed Bullet is an extremely powerful tool for deadeye, and it gets taken away. Its an unblockable 3-4K damage attack that corrupts 3 boons, every 4 seconds if you force your cooldowns to restealth. I dont expect a support skill with such strenght to become reality. So this is a huge nerf to deadeye in pvp, taking away the best tool it had to deal with blocks/stab/boonspam.

    maybe we get DJ unblockable instead, wich would be kind of a tradeoff because we got now an additional tell by going into stealth. but the boonrip part..i often used it to remove protection or corrupt stability into fear, as i dont use any cantrip aside from shadow meld and rarely shadow gust i think i wont have that boonrip anymore.

    I really like deadeye the way it is right now, it's the most fun I've had since the game released. It's something so simple it borders on dumb, yet you can combine the few tools you have to overcome almost anything with the right judgement(pun intended) and rotations.

    tho we play our deadeye very different, i agree with you on this one :D

    read this, become a better player now.

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how combat is going to be like since we need to adopt in&out playstyle - are there going to be changes on rifle skills to reflect this for mobility purposes and not just the barrier/shield? I can only see big openings for opponents to delete deadeyes, and more so with the iniative that needs to be used just to avoid that. The other things that bother me have already been brought up like non stealth builds and the effect on other weapon sets. I even have a few specific builds that does not rely on trickery, but acro instead, that one is surely going to go away after this seeing how important the initiative will be for malice. It feels like deadeye builds will become very pidgeonholed. I was just getting used to current mechanics as well :open_mouth:
    Need moar info.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    woohoo we fixed an already overpowered kitten useless build..

    instead of putting backstab back to no reuse and looking into Conditions flying around all over the place with no cool downs from other classes, oh wait its anet we work just for pve stuff..

    well then u can just up every1 dmg by 100% and u have it fixed also.. cus pve who cares?

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @dragonkain.3984 said:
    Some COMMON SENSE things deadeye totally needs to stop being garbage in pvp:

    1. Remove ALL sound warnings to enemies, no other class screams into your eardrums like this supposedly-stealth based assassin, which is just ABSURD. No other class in game screams into your ears that he's about to kill you.
    2. Make not-kneel-based rifle into an actually useful weapon, currently its absolute joke when you're not kneeling. Offer players an alternative playstyle with not-kneel based rifle deadeye.
    3. Make kneel have 0 cast-time, it's absurd how much casting needs to be done only to start dealing damage to someone. Mark=cast time, kneel=cast time, all rifle attacks=cast time. It takes around 2 seconds only to start dealing ANY damage, by that time your target already ran a mile away when he noted a mark above his head.
    4. Rangers longbow has 1750 range base (yes, 1750 is the real range and not 1500 as description states in case you didn't know), rifle deadeye has 1200/1500.... and rangers longbow doesnt require you to stand still, can burst up to 40k dmg every 30 seconds with no warnings whatsoever, yeah, 40k burst out of nowhere, pretty funny how bow rangers are so much more op than rifle sniper eh? To make deadeye less garbage buff range to 1750 both kneeling and not kneeling, it's a kitten rifle, rifles are supposed to have longer range than bows.
    5. Retreat on rifle is useless in 80% of situations because terrain still makes it bug in almost all maps that have even a slightest elevation, making you NOT want to use it at all because you know that there's high chance that it will do NOTHING. To fix this just make it a short range targeted teleport, like mirages elite, 450 range anywhere mesmer clicks, it will be balanced because it costs initiative to use it while it costs nothing for mesmer. Mesmer can do it even while using other skills/attacks too.

    READ THIS POST DEVS.

    i dont even kneel, and pretty much wreck most things in WvW.
    you dont need kneel deadeye is already easy and OP enough with the range they have and dmg they poo out.

  • Miatela.5047Miatela.5047 Member ✭✭✭

    We've touched nearly every trait in the Deadeye line in order to better define different types of deadeye playstyles and reduce the conflicts between them. Here's a quick example of a new trait that is aimed at improving Fire for Effect boon-sharing builds while also providing a meaningful damage bonus.

    Premeditation: Gain +180 concentration and increase your strike damage by 1% for each unique boon on you.

    @Robert Gee.9246 I'm quite interested in seeing what the boon-sharing potential of Deadeye will be after this rework - it needs to be massively improved. In PvE, Druids are able to access 25 might on 10 people with only a minor loss of healing output (which is already far more than enough for all raid encounters) by changing to Harrier gear and taking one grandmaster trait over two others which do not benefit healing. Druids also bring unique boons such as Spirits and Glyph of Empowerment. A Druid is not negatively impacted in any meaningful manner by choosing to might share.

    By contrast, Deadeye needs to currently take 3 traits in Deadeye, Improvisation, Trickery instead of Critical Strikes and an almost full Cantrip utility selection in order to might share at a level comparable to druid. Deadeye also does not bring any unique boons compared with the professions (Phalanx Strength Warrior and Harrier Druid) that it is seemingly supposed to compete with for might sharing. This further limits an already low utility and low DPS profession and the pay off of dropping from 33k benchmark DPS (which is already shockingly low for a spec that offers no utility, no cleave or piercing, no burst, lower sustain and no movement to achieve those numbers) to approximately 19k benchmark DPS to gain 25 might on 10 people is not worth it. I really hope that with the rework, the opportunity cost of playing might share Deadeye has been seriously considered or, at least, the might share potential of certain other professions has been reviewed.

    As before, thank you for the communication and the effort being put into thief - the profession badly needs attention. I am tentatively hopeful for Tuesday!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    its obvious you dont like deadeye reddie, so i doubt you played it alot - have you actually fought good players with it or just the rather noobish majority in WvW ? because sometimes you might even run into players that do have dodge keybinded or play with sound. DE has clear issues, not many play that spec in current form altho some here argue that it is because too cheesy, but that alone has never stopped people from playing builds.
    conditions are fine, dont get whats your issue with them. you can avoid them on application and clear them on top!i

    read this, become a better player now.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    • Cursed Bullet is an extremely powerful tool for deadeye, and it gets taken away. Its an unblockable 3-4K damage attack that corrupts 3 boons, every 4 seconds if you force your cooldowns to restealth. I dont expect a support skill with such strenght to become reality. So this is a huge nerf to deadeye in pvp, taking away the best tool it had to deal with blocks/stab/boonspam.

    maybe we get DJ unblockable instead, wich would be kind of a tradeoff because we got now an additional tell by going into stealth. but the boonrip part..i often used it to remove protection or corrupt stability into fear, as i dont use any cantrip aside from shadow meld and rarely shadow gust i think i wont have that boonrip anymore.

    The way Cursed Bullet traveled even if it was slow still made it another of my go to skills. It's like sending a small drone to hit someones back or side while you go the other way or as a half decent answer to the crazy line of site/obstruction breaks in a map like EB. I could also pick a range to decide if I wanted CB or Mug to open or land on Revealed. It is slow and if I'm not focused on my movement it can be dealt with pretty easily but it gave me choices to play around with. I really hope the skill it'self will carry over somehow, there's no reason to scrap that kind of creativity with a class for anything generic.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    @kash.9213 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    • Cursed Bullet is an extremely powerful tool for deadeye, and it gets taken away. Its an unblockable 3-4K damage attack that corrupts 3 boons, every 4 seconds if you force your cooldowns to restealth. I dont expect a support skill with such strenght to become reality. So this is a huge nerf to deadeye in pvp, taking away the best tool it had to deal with blocks/stab/boonspam.

    maybe we get DJ unblockable instead, wich would be kind of a tradeoff because we got now an additional tell by going into stealth. but the boonrip part..i often used it to remove protection or corrupt stability into fear, as i dont use any cantrip aside from shadow meld and rarely shadow gust i think i wont have that boonrip anymore.

    The way Cursed Bullet traveled even if it was slow still made it another of my go to skills. It's like sending a small drone to hit someones back or side while you go the other way or as a half decent answer to the crazy line of site/obstruction breaks in a map like EB. I could also pick a range to decide if I wanted CB or Mug to open or land on Revealed. It is slow and if I'm not focused on my movement it can be dealt with pretty easily but it gave me choices to play around with. I really hope the skill it'self will carry over somehow, there's no reason to scrap that kind of creativity with a class for anything generic.

    i am not sure if i was more often able to hit around a corner or i wasnt able to hit my target because i was trying to shoot to a higher ground.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not that he malice is great mechanic, but if the highlight of this patch is this and under water skills this is a clear indication that the priorities are so kitten backwards.

  • Each stealth attack has a different bonus based on the type of skill it is. Skills primarily focused around damage, such as Backstab, will consume malice for bonus damage whereas skills focused around condition damage, such as Sneak Attack, will consume malice for bonus condition effects. Tactical Strike on the other hand consumes malice to grant an advantage over your enemy via endurance gain.

    I am wondering about the Sneak Attack one, considering p/p is used way more than p/d. Considering p/p is power, it would be pretty useless if it gives a condition increase. Although I wonder if p/d might finally be somewhat viable in any gamemode, maybe something to consider is changing the 1 skill to power if its p/p, condi when it's p/d?

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    P/D is viable right now. But it isn’t as powerful as condi mirage or scourge without being played well so it has less presence at this time.

    As a P/D Deadeye I’m actually quite interested in this update.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Zelulose.8695Zelulose.8695 Member ✭✭
    edited May 6, 2018

    Make it so that if you play a thief without vitality you die in two shots rather than one vs dead-eye please.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zelulose.8695 said:
    Make it so that if you play a thief without vitality you die in two shots rather than one vs dead-eye please.

    most professions can onehit or rather instant multihit a thief down that doesnt invest in defensive attributes - what is so special about deadeyes that you do not want them to be able to do the same?

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Kalan.9705Kalan.9705 Member

    I hope the new deadeye will support condi builds also for more variety e.g. malice currently offers no dps increase to conditions only power attacks.

  • Urejt.5648Urejt.5648 Member ✭✭✭

    I prey deadeye gets really good unblockable atack every 10 seconds like old cursed bullet was.

    rifle is garbage since stealth on dodge nerf
    ~~* SEASON XII - TOP 12 EU RIFLE GOD! updated

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the idea of these changes but one thing that will hinder them is a long time problem that has never been fixed and that is all the traits tied into trickery for utility like the initiative bonus, damage from lead attacks, etc. When using elite specs these should just be carried over but not stack with the trickery line so that possible builds like say a Critical Strikes, Shadow Arts, Deadeye setup could be used making more versatile builds where as the trickery line causes more damage to build diversity than it helps. So if you do that we could possibly see some nice builds like the ones from before the elite spec system where you aren't throwing things to the side just because of a few traits on one line. Same goes for classes like guardian for example has the same problem.

  • MakubeC.3026MakubeC.3026 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018

    I thought of this change last night. A lot. And came to the conclusion it could be great, after all. The main reason why DJ is not used in PvP is because the huge ini investment that can many times be in vain. Having it placed in the stealth attack will see a lot more play, which will in turn translate to more hits and more damage. But we will also lose the ability to continuously spam it, which gives the receiving end more chance to counter play. We are also keeping the 3% dmg bonus though I'm not convinced of the trait thing. So we can choose to keep the bonus or make a big attack. I'm feeling a lot more positive about this change than when I first read it. Let's see what happens.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018

    This smells like an unnecessary nerf to a class spec that was already borderline useless outside of a handful of situations.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suspect it won’t be a damage nerf if you weren’t camping stealth before. The changes also make non-rifle versions more competitive but we will have to see how malice generation works out in practice.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do appreciate all the work you do devs but seriously just so out of control.

    No one asked for this why would you waste your time on this when you have other specs and professions in much more of fix than deadeye.
    You have had complaints about scourge and its mechanics from day 1 and how its mechanics obviously need re working.
    Rengade is in shambles and no one can make it work with 100% satisfaction across multiple game modes Rev in general by far has the most complaints of things not living up to their standards yet its out right ignored.
    Core necro is still running with a lot of gw2 launch material (skills and traits with absolutely 0 QoL changes) which most defiantly should not be happening in 2018
    Core engi even needs help.

    And looking at these changes I cant tell if this was a shadowed nerf or a real attempt to fix what I dont think most people had a problem with.

    You have so many other things you could have touched up on with the community about the upcoming patch and you guys pulled this out I have to say im dissapointed
    I was hoping to hear more about under water skills if anything.

    If we were going to talk any kind of changes lets talk about the problematic one, aka mesmer and thats not even here.

  • NeroBoron.7285NeroBoron.7285 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:
    We designed malice as a gating mechanic that would act as a way for a Deadeye to gain increasing damage threat the longer they were in combat with their mark. This system was built to allow for very high damage attacks with enough warning to the victim that there would be room for counterplay.

    So perma invis oneshot deadeye has conterplay?

    Three things you should really watch:
    a) perma invis, hopefully you remove the reveal remove. its the only thing that conters the perma invis a littl bit. even with revealed there are still a lot of ports to gain range and evades.
    b) litterally one shot skills, in wvw Death's Judgement deals currently up to 30~40k damage currently, backstab up to 16~21k. a damage buff to backstab is just ridiclous and death's judgement hopefully is a bit nerfed due to malice is only gain on attacking and not while camping stealth.
    c) I still dont get why it is okay for the thief that he can spam skills, specially while it was broken for the revenant as well and he got nerfed already in the hot beta. give those skills some charges. so that stuff like always mashing one button wont be that successfull and gets a longer cd then just the regeneration of initiative. Same goes for spammable oneshot skills from invis like backstab. oh hey i was lucky and dodged or blocked it, but no reveal and it can still be spammed, due to 0 sec cd when screwing the burst.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @NeroBoron.7285 said:

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:
    We designed malice as a gating mechanic that would act as a way for a Deadeye to gain increasing damage threat the longer they were in combat with their mark. This system was built to allow for very high damage attacks with enough warning to the victim that there would be room for counterplay.

    So perma invis oneshot deadeye has conterplay?

    Three things you should really watch:
    a) perma invis, hopefully you remove the reveal remove. its the only thing that conters the perma invis a littl bit. even with revealed there are still a lot of ports to gain range and evades.
    b) litterally one shot skills, in wvw Death's Judgement deals currently up to 30~40k damage currently, backstab up to 16~21k. a damage buff to backstab is just ridiclous and death's judgement hopefully is a bit nerfed due to malice is only gain on attacking and not while camping stealth.
    c) I still dont get why it is okay for the thief that he can spam skills, specially while it was broken for the revenant as well and he got nerfed already in the hot beta. give those skills some charges. so that stuff like always mashing one button wont be that successfull and gets a longer cd then just the regeneration of initiative. Same goes for spammable oneshot skills from invis like backstab. oh hey i was lucky and dodged or blocked it, but no reveal and it can still be spammed, due to 0 sec cd when screwing the burst.

    You’re mistaken. The backstabs and Death Judgment are currently malice assisted. Due to the current malice system once a DE reaches max malice (which can be achieved while perma stealthed) the DE can continue to spam multiple hard hits. This is especially true of DJ because it doesn’t require stealth to fire (unlike backstab).

    The change makes it into a single hard hitting ability (still possibly 15-25k). It won’t hit that hard if the DE is camping stealth. It will hit once before needing to recharge malice. This opens up counterplay because an invisible thief won’t generate malice.

    Now whether the thief is better than you/your build is another issue entirely.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2018

    @NeroBoron.7285 said:

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    A message from Robert Gee, Guild Wars 2 Systems Team:
    We designed malice as a gating mechanic that would act as a way for a Deadeye to gain increasing damage threat the longer they were in combat with their mark. This system was built to allow for very high damage attacks with enough warning to the victim that there would be room for counterplay.

    So perma invis oneshot deadeye has conterplay?

    Three things you should really watch:
    a) perma invis, hopefully you remove the reveal remove. its the only thing that conters the perma invis a littl bit. even with revealed there are still a lot of ports to gain range and evades.
    b) litterally one shot skills, in wvw Death's Judgement deals currently up to 30~40k damage currently, backstab up to 16~21k. a damage buff to backstab is just ridiclous and death's judgement hopefully is a bit nerfed due to malice is only gain on attacking and not while camping stealth.
    c) I still dont get why it is okay for the thief that he can spam skills, specially while it was broken for the revenant as well and he got nerfed already in the hot beta. give those skills some charges. so that stuff like always mashing one button wont be that successfull and gets a longer cd then just the regeneration of initiative. Same goes for spammable oneshot skills from invis like backstab. oh hey i was lucky and dodged or blocked it, but no reveal and it can still be spammed, due to 0 sec cd when screwing the burst.

    a) as we are talking WvW and removing revealed. first of all those funny stealth disrupting traps need to be made dodgeable. they are the reason i started playin DE over DD. sure you can overwrite the 20s reveal with 3s using a DJ- but that only works if your not jumped by 10 people when you trigger the trap.

    b)with daredevil and burst of agility i could still burst people down within a second out of permastealth. if i do know mark people 20 seconds before i attack - they can atleast prepare for it and might be able to avoid it. yes deaths judjement will be nerfed because by needing stealth to cast it, they add another tell. as if it wasnt already the skill with the most tells.

    c) spamming is not really clever as a thief.
    backstab has an awfully long cast and then a cooldown so if you screw it up, that already means you got to stack some more stealth or fall out of it unless ofc you overstacked your stealth expecting to miss your backstab. you have to run rather offensive stats to get backstab onehited and a ton of people in WvW still run durability runes wich gives them a 25% chance at surviving backstab by proc. most people i run into currently run way to defensive to be oneshot by a backstab.

    @saerni.2584 said:
    This opens up counterplay because an invisible thief won’t generate malice.

    we dont know about that yet. their official reasoning for the change has nothing to do stealth camping playstyle, but only that the DE needs more control over the malice generation. with those changes they actually want to emphesize playing with stealth as DE and also will give 'more flexible stealth' what ever that is. therefor till we see all the changes, i still hope for other ways of malice gen than the ones in the opening post becuse it would else be a huge PvE nerf and would push for only one playstyle in PvP.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    So once again, to reiterate. It seems like 100% of our malice will require stealth to utilize. So let's say we gain malice much faster than we do now. Our dps will require a lot of uptime on stealth to take advantage of the damage multiplier right? It seems like I'll need to take every bit of stealth I can just to use my class mechanic. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

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