An Eye on the Deadeye - Page 9 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

An Eye on the Deadeye

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  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Cameryn.5310 said:
    Can you explain to me how P/P is stronger in open world? I play P/P + Rifle exclusively and malice is completely useless to me now. I don't see the numbers going up, in fact they seem lower to me on general targets.

    Not to mention, it was a self buff, not put on your marked target. So you could technically mark 1 person and attack another while still having the 21% bonus.

    This is incorrect.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    @GWMO.4785 said:
    R.I.P Deadeye? /Just my 2 cents on it

    Yep. I just checked the German and French boards. In the German ones that I can natively understand, I think just one guy likes it, the other blatantly hates it.

    The Spanish forums have no translation until yesterday (lol?), but the one and only response is, according to Google Translation: "I am disappointed with this company". So that's clear as well.

    The French forum is the same as my position mostly: There is no sniper in this sniper profession anymore, they also brought up to change it by 180° after so many months is terrible, the dodge rolls suck, the malice is a nerf and malice is awful.

    In this thread, several people say they quit and pay WoW. General French and German forum responses: "RIP Deadeye", just as you said.
    The only people who like it either don't use Rifle - that's what Deadeye has been advertized with/as, or play PvP/WvW.
    No real Deadeye likes these joices. In all 4 languages. So it's certainly not me alone. Still on the edge to quit this game, and it's hard to decide. It just sucks so bad it's insane on many layers...

    You need stealth to use DJ, but that reveals you. What is this bullcrap of going and out of stealth, it's so awkward and forced. It makes literally no sense. You read Gaile's intro that she posted for the real designers (that, of course, know it sucks, so they bother to respond on bug reports, but not on this thread...) but nothing makes actually sense during gameplay.

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    @Turk.5460 said:
    This is incorrect.

    Intended or not, this actually worked. I used it often on mobs and players in SPVP. It's not something that's needed.
    But we do need Death Judgement back where it was and Malice to work how it used to for our DPS to be back where it was.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

    You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

    You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

    That's not what anyone is complaining about, mate.
    The problem is that you're missing nearly 11% damage bonus that cannot be made up by taking BQOBK. At best you're gaining around 5+10% from traits if all goes as planned, but chances are you'll only have 3 boons on you without M7; so if you do pick up M7, you then lose the 200 Power/Prescicion bonus from BQOBK.
    Do you see where we're coming from? You're losing DPS regardless of what you do.
    While the new M7 gives you initiative flexibility if you have a Stealth skill to refresh it, you're still losing DPS, not gaining.
    The old Malice system gave you 21% bonus damage w/M7, the new one gives you 10% and the rest is all over the place and situational.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    If you want to maximize return on malice in p/p build take MALI 7 and at least one stealth source. P/P builds to 7 malice fast meaning the refund of 7 INI made quite early and those boons acquired. That 7 Ini is coming in just around when OLD thief used to be low on INI and the enemy low on dodges/evades reflects.

    You then use stealth, dump the malice with a sneak attack and reset MALI 7. When it hits 7 malice you get 7 ini again plus boons. You can boost INI gain significantly using this method meaning more fuel for the Unload.

    That's not what anyone is complaining about, mate.
    The problem is that you're missing nearly 11% damage bonus that cannot be made up by taking BQOBK. At best you're gaining around 5+10% from traits if all goes as planned, but chances are you'll only have 3 boons on you without M7; so if you do pick up M7, you then lose the 200 Power/Prescicion bonus from BQOBK.
    Do you see where we're coming from? You're losing DPS regardless of what you do.
    While the new M7 gives you initiative flexibility if you have a Stealth skill to refresh it, you're still losing DPS, not gaining.
    The old Malice system gave you 21% bonus damage w/M7, the new one gives you 10% and the rest is all over the place and situational.

    Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

    Scenario 1 You took BqoBk prior and you take it in new build. NOTHING is lost due to Premed. Premed is not "all over the place" as it rare to have less then 4 boons running in a p/p build. NO real change. (swiftness/might/fury/ are generally always up and VIGOR/regen/quickness easy to get)

    Scenario 2 you took Mali 7 before and you take Mali 7 now. Mali 7 NOW adds 7 INI. That is enough for one+ full unloads which will add more then 11 percent damage. Reset it with a stealth and you can get another 7 ini in short order.

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

    That's the whole point dude. Already gave you the answer above, but here.
    Malice gave a total of 21% damage bonus with M7. You're saying if we want to make up for the loss 11% damage, we should get BQOBK. That's not gonna cut it. In fact, just go test your DPS on the golem. Several of us have and the results are in: Your damage has been nerfed. Only ones that got a boost in DPS were D/D DE.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Where are you missing 11 percent damage MATE? Did you even play P/P? You can not take both Mali 7 and BqoBK nor could you before.

    That's the whole point dude. Already gave you the answer above, but here.
    Malice gave a total of 21% damage bonus with M7. You're saying if we want to make up for the loss 11% damage, we should get BQOBK. That's not gonna cut it. In fact, just go test your DPS on the golem. Several of us have and the results are in: Your damage has been nerfed. Only ones that got a boost in DPS were D/D DE.

    No you are not reading what I am saying DUDE.

    I am NOT saying we should take BqObk. Where did I ever say that.?

    I said IF YOU TOOK BqobK PRIOR to changes and take the same today there no damage loss due to iron sight plus Premed. Damge bonus is the same and many Thieves did in fact take BqoBk so as to get their shots off faster.

    I said If you took MALI 7 prior there a damage loss of around 6 percent (Not eleven) due to Premed and the fact that most thieves run with around 4 or 5 boons. If you are in a group it even less then that as you can have even more boons. I tend to run solo and it easy to keep 5 boons on. I then pointed out that this 6 percent was NOT a reflection of reality as the added unloads the new Mali 7 provides are not factored in.

    I do not play against Golems. I play against other players. I do not count the start of my damage at the 12 second mark which is about how long it took old style to build up 7 malice. I count the start of my damage when the fight starts and where I am already getting a 10 percent add.

    Now to the INI pool. Mali 7 adds 7 Ini. I get to Mali 7 faster then before. Assume you are already at your 21 percent old style and (I am being generous here) are doing 12000 per unload as opposed to my 10000. In 4 unloads you did 48000 damage and I did 40000. You are out of INI and I have enough for 1+ more unloads. I just gave you a 20 percent per unload damage advantage per unload. I make up for that with one unload which you do not have the INI for.

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Added to that I do not play against Golems.

    Sigh, maybe you should. 'Cause there is plenty of info on how DPS has dropped. I've done my own testing as well.
    Malice gave a bonus of 3% damage per stack; x7 with M7 that was 21% damage bonus. But that's been removed now.
    Instead, you get 10% damage bonus from iron Sight and additional damage bonus from Premeditation, which can range from an extra 3-6% depending on your choice of weapons/traits. That's still 16% in best case scenarios; you're still missing 5-8% damage bonus. You may have gained initiative bonus via the new M7 but if you run a Golem test and compare it to your old DPS, you'll immediately notice that P/P has a 2K DPS loss and Rifle has a 5.5K DPS loss.
    Meanwhile, D/D has gained nearly 9K DPS with this change, due to the changes to Ambush.

    So your perspective is PVP/WVW only. Gotcha.
    I take all game modes into account; Both PVP/WVW are not affected by these changes from my perspective. PVE is what is being hit the hardest.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    Added to that I do not play against Golems.

    Sigh, maybe you should. 'Cause there is plenty of info on how DPS has dropped. I've done my own testing as well.
    Malice gave a bonus of 3% damage per stack; x7 with M7 that was 21% damage bonus. But that's been removed now.
    Instead, you get 10% damage bonus from iron Sight and additional damage bonus from Premeditation, which can range from an extra 3-6% depending on your choice of weapons/traits. That's still 16% in best case scenarios; you're still missing 5-8% damage bonus. You may have gained initiative bonus via the new M7 but if you run a Golem test and compare it to your old DPS, you'll immediately notice that P/P has a 2K DPS loss and Rifle has a 5.5K DPS loss.
    Meanwhile, D/D has gained nearly 9K DPS with this change, due to the changes to Ambush.

    So your perspective is PVP/WVW only. Gotcha.
    I take all game modes into account; Both PVP/WVW are not affected by these changes from my perspective. PVE is what is being hit the hardest.

    I play PVE as well and far far better in PVE with the new pistol/pistol build. I just went into the Desert bordelands to fight mobs and do far better with the new P/P then prior just because there way more INI to do what I need to do. Again I gave YOU a 20 percent advantage in the above example (not 8) and wiped out that advantage with a single unload. I am now including two sources of stealth in my own p/p build as the new MALI 7 THAT effective (you can in essense increase INi gain by around 70 percent)

    I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

  • @Cameryn.5310 said:

    @Astyrah.4015 said:

    P/P BeQuick Deadeye is fun to play in open world PvE (anything sub-veteran rank will usually melt really fast by just opening with DE mark then spamming unload) but suffers from lack of good sustainable DPS on boss fights with high HP pools (basically your opening burst is really good and that's most of where your damage comes from and then you start losing steam on prolonged fights if it drags too long) and you pretty much have no spammable AOE if you don't have a shortbow/dagger+dagger/sword for a swap set, but it is definitely usable. for PvP i think the go-to now after the changes is D/P or D/D but i will leave other people to inform you about the PvP things

    This is all true.

    As a P/P PvE deadeye, MY complaint that I shared earlier in this thread is that we really no longer use Malice in any capacity... there are no weapon skills that grant stealth, and only two cantrips that are pretty much substandard. So all the Malice changes have made that mechanic utterly useless.... but the deadeye trait line is still vital (considering that it changes steals to ranged).

    Uhm so how do you play p/p DE now with these changes? How much dps was lost? I will be going this route juggling it with a rifle build for both pvp/pve. Thanks

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

    You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.
    Numbers don't lie.

  • @Astyrah.4015 said:

    @jenosmaverick.8694 said:
    any chance they roll the old deadeye back with this much negative comments?

    i doubt they will, and if ever they'll probably meet us halfway and just give in to some of the suggestions so yeah a full rollback on the rework is very unlikely

    Everyday we stray further from the hope of smart choices being made. Chance of a fullrollback. 0% to 1% If they actually did that Id be more positively suprised about anything I think I ever have in my life. But sadly thats a fantasy world. (Ironic) That im living in. Anet wont roll it back they dont want to admit this change was a bad one.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

    You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.
    Numbers don't lie.

    You believe wahtever you wish. I will go on playing the game and enjoying my increased effectiveness. Not my problem if you unwilling to adapt to a change. I am detailing as to how a person can increase their effectiveness in DE by understanding the changes and how it translates to gameplay such as changing up rotations to take advantage of stealth mechanics.You are just saying nothing can be done because the "Special forces" Golem said so.

  • Cameryn.5310Cameryn.5310 Member ✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    When you look at this objectively his simply not true. P/P is in a better place since these changes.

    No. We have lost the Malice boost to our damage output. The only way to use Malice now is to take the two cantrips that provide it. The net benefit of using those cantrips to stealth is a slight boost to skill #1 which allows the very same shot except for a VERY small amount of torment. There is no situation in which that is better than a round of Unload. P/P deadeyes lost the Malice damage output and gained nothing in return that we didn't already have.

    This would be a very easy fix for Arenanet if they made the very same deadeye talent that gained you stealth when dodging with a rifle function on other weapons as well.

  • Anyone mind sharing one of these P/P PvE builds? Perhaps a P/P WvW variant as well. Im terrible with builds and still trying to grasp the recent changes.

    I'm sure others would appreciate it as well. Thanks in advance.

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

    You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.
    Numbers don't lie.

    I'd never heard of these SFTGs before you mentioned them and after a quick google I'm gonna weigh in. The following may come from ignorance and is a tad of a rant.

    THEY DON'T FIGHT BACK. You cannot in pve expect to stand nonchalantly and churn out a perfect dps rotation against, say a hydra or a forged raiding party. Same goes for rifle. Dps would have you spam 3 for both weapons, but enemies block, pull, stun, reflect etc. The fight doesn't start after 11 seconds when you have accumulated your maximum malice 21% while the mob has a cuppa (unless you're a ghillie sniper taking 21 seconds to kill a target you could drop in half that time). Now you come in and boom you're doing a potential 15% off the bat. You're average dude isn't gonna last 11 seconds, hell you can drop a veteran in that time. And like babazhook says you can now do more unload due to initiative regain. Sure against a boss you maybe lose overall dps after a while. Maybe. A while. But you can't solo a group event. The only thing i can see this being an issue with is raids, where thief was already bottom of the pile and redundant anyway.

    Sorry for going off on a rant. I may be wrong but I just don't understand how fighting a stationary target can be compared to fighting an enemy. Hell while testing out rifle for pvp I used a sweet rotation that would take out the npc professions flawlessly. Guess what, not so easy in an actual match. I don't mean this with a hint of malice (pun intended) but I'd be much obliged if you could explain how fighting a Golem reflects real pve. Because as far as i can make out the numbers DO LIE. They leave out the whole fighting part...

    tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭

    Here's more numbers, courtesy of Kitty from this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39218/so-i-was-skeptical-about-the-de-changes

    Kitty now tested rest of pure DPS deadeye builds and she got this kind of results (don't mind the %s, Kitty's using 34k as fixed point to compare her results to):
    Power Deadeye 28255 (Dagger+Dagger)83%
    Power Deadeye 26941 (Dagger+Dagger Auto-attack+HS+SF+Mark)79%
    Power Thief 25611 (Dagger+Dagger)75%
    Power Deadeye 25168 (Rifle)74%
    Power Deadeye 24426 (Sword/X Auto-Attack+SF+Mark)72%
    Power Deadeye 23555 (Sword/Dagger Rotation)69%
    Power Deadeye 21541 (Pistol/Pistol)63%
    Power Thief 21468 (Pistol/Pistol)63%
    Power Deadeye 20843 (Sword/Pistol Pistol Whips)61%
    Power Thief 19942 (Sword/X Auto-Attack)59%
    Power Deadeye 17611 (Pistol/Dagger)51%

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Asphelt.6802 said:
    tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp


    It's this simple.

    You measure DPS on stationary target with prior traits.
    You measure DPS on same target with new traits.

    Result: Old traits/system offered greater DPS gains to both P/P and Rifle. New system offers equal DPS to old Rifle if you use D/D.
    I don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
    You can add your variables afterwards, but the bottom line is this: You lost DPS and a significant amount if you use P/P or Rifle and you gain a LOT of DPS if you use D/D.

    Old Rifle DPS:
    New Rifle DPS has not been parsed (Might do a video of it later but here's a screenshot in the meantime) https://image.ibb.co/hfueJy/DEpost5_8patch.png

    Old D/D DPS: was abysmal, around 18-19K DPS, I don't have logged screenshots or parses of it 'cause I almost never used it in raids.
    New D/D DPS:

    Does this help you understand?

    No not really. Look at the first video. He is just sitting there while the Golem takes it. You try that against a hydra and you're toast. Hydras first attack is a considerable knockdown that hits hard, then it charges which launches. Before you had to wait 11 seconds at the least to fire off a max DJ. Now you can do it in 3, plus it is faster and unblockable. Now whether it should be a stealth skill is another matter, most seem to argue not. My point is the benchmark being lower over time is irrelevant if the benchmark is nonviable in a fight. My experience in pve against things that actual try to stop you killing them, is that I can now drop the vast majority of enemies faster. WITH RIFLE. Babazhook says the same for P/P and honestly I believe him. What you are showing me would never work in pve.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Asphelt.6802 said:

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

    You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.
    Numbers don't lie.

    I'd never heard of these SFTGs before you mentioned them and after a quick google I'm gonna weigh in. The following may come from ignorance and is a tad of a rant.

    THEY DON'T FIGHT BACK. You cannot in pve expect to stand nonchalantly and churn out a perfect dps rotation against, say a hydra or a forged raiding party. Same goes for rifle. Dps would have you spam 3 for both weapons, but enemies block, pull, stun, reflect etc. The fight doesn't start after 11 seconds when you have accumulated your maximum malice 21% while the mob has a cuppa (unless you're a ghillie sniper taking 21 seconds to kill a target you could drop in half that time). Now you come in and boom you're doing a potential 15% off the bat. You're average dude isn't gonna last 11 seconds, hell you can drop a veteran in that time. And like babazhook says you can now do more unload due to initiative regain. Sure against a boss you maybe lose overall dps after a while. Maybe. A while. But you can't solo a group event. The only thing i can see this being an issue with is raids, where thief was already bottom of the pile and redundant anyway.

    Sorry for going off on a rant. I may be wrong but I just don't understand how fighting a stationary target can be compared to fighting an enemy. Hell while testing out rifle for pvp I used a sweet rotation that would take out the npc professions flawlessly. Guess what, not so easy in an actual match. I don't mean this with a hint of malice (pun intended) but I'd be much obliged if you could explain how fighting a Golem reflects real pve. Because as far as i can make out the numbers DO LIE. They leave out the whole fighting part...

    tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

    The test is on golems to control stats and you get a potential number, that flat dps loss translates into other games modes regardless of how far you're pushing to into those numbers. Running a tanky build and trolling trash or squad tails where you're not hitting a threshold doesn't mean it's fine it just means you're not building to hit that potential. It seems like the main argument is, thief sucks anyway so use a different weapon and clean up trash. I only play WvW so I guess I can't really weight in on most of this but it's a big change and there's clearly a major difference in numbers that regardless of our thoughts on it shouldn't be outright dismissed because it's working out fine for some themed builds.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Asphelt.6802 said:
    No not really. Look at the first video. He is just sitting there while the Golem takes it. You try that against a hydra and you're toast. Hydras first attack is a considerable knockdown that hits hard, then it charges which launches. Before you had to wait 11 seconds at the least to fire off a max DJ. Now you can do it in 3, plus it is faster and unblockable. Now whether it should be a stealth skill is another matter, most seem to argue not. My point is the benchmark being lower over time is irrelevant if the benchmark is nonviable in a fight. My experience in pve against things that actual try to stop you killing them, is that I can now drop the vast majority of enemies faster. WITH RIFLE. Babazhook says the same for P/P and honestly I believe him. What you are showing me would never work in pve.

    That's a variable.
    If you add that to old Deadeye system and new Deadeye system, the old one will kill it first regardless of what variables you throw at it.
    It does more damage no matter what variables you throw at both. In the end, one of the two DOES MORE DAMAGE.
    How... how do you not understand this?
    No one expects you to hit 31K DPS in a raid boss consistently (Outside of maybe MO).
    The idea is that this measures your MAXIMUM output and the results are in, new Malice/Rework of Deadeye is inferior to old one in damage output.

    What variables are these? How can you know that? I can now fire DJ at max malice while on the move to avoid any stuns within 4 seconds. How can you possibly know from hitting an inanimate object how you perform in a fight?

    "No matter what variables..." Explain this to me I don't get it. How can you know this from an inanimate object? It doesn't account for that awkward FIGHTING BACK variable. Give me one more chance, and if I still don't get it then I'll call it a night, or a morning...

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Asphelt.6802 said:

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said: I do not play against Golems. Golems are a poor test of a weapons usefulness for obvious reasons. They do not do things like block or dodge or reflect or go Invuln. You do not have to save INI for a blind or interrupt because a Golem never attacks.

    You've clearly never used the special forces training golem, based on those statements. So I'll leave you with whatever you want to believe.
    Numbers don't lie.

    I'd never heard of these SFTGs before you mentioned them and after a quick google I'm gonna weigh in. The following may come from ignorance and is a tad of a rant.

    THEY DON'T FIGHT BACK. You cannot in pve expect to stand nonchalantly and churn out a perfect dps rotation against, say a hydra or a forged raiding party. Same goes for rifle. Dps would have you spam 3 for both weapons, but enemies block, pull, stun, reflect etc. The fight doesn't start after 11 seconds when you have accumulated your maximum malice 21% while the mob has a cuppa (unless you're a ghillie sniper taking 21 seconds to kill a target you could drop in half that time). Now you come in and boom you're doing a potential 15% off the bat. You're average dude isn't gonna last 11 seconds, hell you can drop a veteran in that time. And like babazhook says you can now do more unload due to initiative regain. Sure against a boss you maybe lose overall dps after a while. Maybe. A while. But you can't solo a group event. The only thing i can see this being an issue with is raids, where thief was already bottom of the pile and redundant anyway.

    Sorry for going off on a rant. I may be wrong but I just don't understand how fighting a stationary target can be compared to fighting an enemy. Hell while testing out rifle for pvp I used a sweet rotation that would take out the npc professions flawlessly. Guess what, not so easy in an actual match. I don't mean this with a hint of malice (pun intended) but I'd be much obliged if you could explain how fighting a Golem reflects real pve. Because as far as i can make out the numbers DO LIE. They leave out the whole fighting part...

    tl;dr Stationary targets reflect neither pve nor pvp

    The test is on golems to control stats and you get a potential number, that flat dps loss translates into other games modes regardless of how far you're pushing to into those numbers. Running a tanky build and trolling trash or squad tails where you're not hitting a threshold doesn't mean it's fine it just means you're not building to hit that potential. It seems like the main argument is, thief sucks anyway so use a different weapon and clean up trash. I only play WvW so I guess I can't really weight in on most of this but it's a big change and there's clearly a major difference in numbers that regardless of our thoughts on it shouldn't be outright dismissed because it's working out fine for some themed builds.

    In the video i was shown you could not possibly hit that benchmark in pve. You can't just squat in one place for a fight against anything Vet or above, or a group of weaker enemies. That is my point. If you do that, you die, simple as. It has nothing to do with buildcraft and everything to do with how the game actually plays.

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Asphelt.6802 said:
    "No matter what variables..." Explain this to me I don't get it. How can you know this from an inanimate object? It doesn't account for that awkward FIGHTING BACK variable. Give me one more chance, and if I still don't get it then I'll call it a night, or a morning...

    Use your own hydra variable for example.
    Hydra uses their blast to push/knock you back. Both old and new Deadeye react to it the same by dodging. Both are still doing the same damage.
    Old Deadeye DPS is higher, so obviously he'll kill it first, even if he has to dodge or relocate, etc. Because the new Deadeye will have to do the same.
    You can keep adding more variables if you want, but the results will always be the same.

    @Asphelt.6802 said:
    In the video i was shown you could not possibly hit that benchmark in pve. You can't just squat in one place for a fight against anything Vet or above, or a group of weaker enemies. That is my point. If you do that, you die, simple as. It has nothing to do with buildcraft and everything to do with how the game actually plays.

    No kitten. These are benchmarks, they're called that for a reason.
    There is no variables being added. It's all about measuring your maximum damage output capacity in an ideal scenario (Which BTW it IS possible to reach those numbers in some specific scenarios. But I don't believe you're a raider or T4 goer from these comments you're making, but if you are, Mursaat Overseer ring a bell?).

  • Tashigi.3159Tashigi.3159 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:
    The Fact you guys are Arguing over Damage output at this point is ridiculous. Just face it, Rifle does less now, Dagger does more. P/P isn't much different if anything a small dip in damage from last patch... There I solved it, lets move on to getting the Devs to actually fix this Injustice.

    Agreed.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:
    The Fact you guys are Arguing over Damage output at this point is ridiculous. Just face it, Rifle does less now, Dagger does more. P/P isn't much different if anything a small dip in damage from last patch... There I solved it, lets move on to getting the Devs to actually fix this Injustice.

    +1

    let me add on the golem vs real fights matter:

    the thing is, the very same people who formulate the meta, the current meta now of chrono/druid/warrior holy trinity + -insert meta dps specs- for PvE, used the same methods, they test the synergy against a golem for raidwide dps and eventually found what constitutes the meta as it is now. and then they tested it on the real fights and confirmed and validated their tests. and these work, that's why those specs are "Most Effective Tactic Available".

    people who make builds for each class and post them on websites such as snow crow's or meta battle do the same. people test on golem and then test in realtime scenarios and see if it's viable. almost everyone who plays this game that has a personal build has atleast based their build off of someone who's already done extensive testing and just tailored it to their playstyle be it in PvE, PvP, WvW.

    the tests done on a golem were never meant to imply that you can pull off the same DPS in a real encounter but is a measure of your maximum potential. so while the current benchmark for the reworked DE rifle (with the unreliable silentscope atm) at 25k dps is what it is, in an actual fight, factoring in all the mechanics and things you need to do to survive, you'll pull off a lower number anywhere from 5% to 40% lower dps from your benchmark and that doesnt even include downtime during a phase when a boss goes invulnerable.

    now compare that 25k potential DPS to the 30k pre-reworked rifle DE, that's almost certainly a 5k dps loss regardless of whether it's the golem or a real fight and on top of the added layer of stealthing before DJ-ing (with the clunky at the moment dodge rolls for stealth), it'll definitely be waaaay lower unless they make adjustments or tweaks.

    and that's what a lot of us were complaining about: fix the stealthing, fix the lost 11% dmg from full malice M7 (because you just can't anymore with premedi fighting over a slot with silent scope), and maybe up the damage a lil bit with the ini skills for PvE.

    then we'll shut up and adapt.

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Tashigi.3159 said:

    @Asphelt.6802 said:
    "No matter what variables..." Explain this to me I don't get it. How can you know this from an inanimate object? It doesn't account for that awkward FIGHTING BACK variable. Give me one more chance, and if I still don't get it then I'll call it a night, or a morning...

    Use your own hydra variable for example.
    Hydra uses their blast to push/knock you back. Both old and new Deadeye react to it the same by dodging. Both are still doing the same damage.
    Old Deadeye DPS is higher, so obviously he'll kill it first, even if he has to dodge or relocate, etc. Because the new Deadeye will have to do the same.
    You can keep adding more variables if you want, but the results will always be the same.

    Ok I think i'm getting there, still not sure I fully agree though! On the hydra example for old DE to do anywhere near benchmark dps they have to be knelt for the majority of the time, which is difficult as Hydra is constantly closing gap and stunning. New Deadeye can achieve high damage by rotating between standing and kneeling, higher than old could without question as only difference is you can DJ while standing. Also new kneeling has no cool down. So say you initially dodge. The hydra then charges, you have to dodge again, and now you have to get up if it closes the distance, do this twice and now you cannot kneel for 10 seconds tanking your dps. New deadeye can stand up, use retreat not having to worry as much about initiative because DJ costs non, and instantly kneel for no cost and no cooldown keeping up more consistent pressure. It's things like this I don't see how this test can measure. I'm sure someone can argue a scenario where old Deadeye is better off, but in my personal experience it works better on the whole. But thank you for being patient with me.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:
    Our focus right now needs to be on getting Mr. Gee and his team to realize the barrel of rotten toxic fish from Viathan lake they've shipped to us is absolutely unacceptable and down right cruel. Just cause they make good weapons long as you hold your nose when you swing it doesn't make the stench any less tolerable on the one using it. The State Rifle is in right now is shameful, sad and absolutely shameful, a literal disrespect to the class as a whole. Thats where our focus as a community should lie. Now Fellow Deadeye loving comrades lets show them just how on point our aim really is! (I just love motivational speeches, they're just to die for aren't they?)

    putting everyone's differences aside, i wish we could. like everyone who is active on the thief/DE threads to just get the devs attention and make them talk... we can always save the arguing for later once we get a concrete word from the devs

  • Asphelt.6802Asphelt.6802 Member ✭✭

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:
    Our focus right now needs to be on getting Mr. Gee and his team to realize the barrel of rotten toxic fish from Viathan lake they've shipped to us is absolutely unacceptable and down right cruel. Just cause they make good weapons long as you hold your nose when you swing it doesn't make the stench any less tolerable on the one using it. The State Rifle is in right now is shameful, sad and absolutely shameful, a literal disrespect to the class as a whole. Thats where our focus as a community should lie. Now Fellow Deadeye loving comrades lets show them just how on point our aim really is! (I just love motivational speeches, they're just to die for aren't they?)

    I won't be joining you because I disagree, however i'm all for democracy and if the majority are with you then they should change it back. The needs of the many... I loved old deadeye, I love new deadeye. It's clear most are not satisfied and the devs are obliged to address that.

  • Astyrah.4015Astyrah.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    i would be fine eitherway if the devs say they wont change it or say they would revert it, atleast i would stop hoping and shut up if they said they wouldn't. it's better than them staying silent despite all the complaints and praises.

  • Vulcaruss.9567Vulcaruss.9567 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asphelt.6802 said:

    @Vulcaruss.9567 said:
    Our focus right now needs to be on getting Mr. Gee and his team to realize the barrel of rotten toxic fish from Viathan lake they've shipped to us is absolutely unacceptable and down right cruel. Just cause they make good weapons long as you hold your nose when you swing it doesn't make the stench any less tolerable on the one using it. The State Rifle is in right now is shameful, sad and absolutely shameful, a literal disrespect to the class as a whole. Thats where our focus as a community should lie. Now Fellow Deadeye loving comrades lets show them just how on point our aim really is! (I just love motivational speeches, they're just to die for aren't they?)

    I won't be joining you

    And that is your right to enact here, I'm well aware some people are happy with the changes, I personally feel we can find a middle ground on where both the best of the new and the best of the old can be melded together to make Deadeye even better than the two are separately. But that can only happen if we can invoke a response from the Team that manufactured these changes, and can find common ground within the mechanics. As Developers it's there job to listen to the community to make informed, responsible and fun decisions on the matter of Profession game play.

    As Many have said, this change was not asked for in any regard, and evidence points to it taking aim at the Perma-Stealth Deadeye build used in WvW and SPvP. There are so many other routes they could of taken to curb this practice but they seemed to attempt a more complex and unneeded route to accomplish this. Sadly the results of the change have made Rifle less of a weapon than it use to be and harmed PvE for the Sake of PvP...

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cameryn.5310 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    When you look at this objectively his simply not true. P/P is in a better place since these changes.

    No. We have lost the Malice boost to our damage output. The only way to use Malice now is to take the two cantrips that provide it. The net benefit of using those cantrips to stealth is a slight boost to skill #1 which allows the very same shot except for a VERY small amount of torment. There is no situation in which that is better than a round of Unload. P/P deadeyes lost the Malice damage output and gained nothing in return that we didn't already have.

    This would be a very easy fix for Arenanet if they made the very same deadeye talent that gained you stealth when dodging with a rifle function on other weapons as well.

    I have already rebutted that claim in detail.

    Did you already have 10 percent damage from Iron sight without the need of Malice?
    Did you already have 1 percent added damage per boon?
    Did you already have a 7 INI refund of INI on reaching 7 malice?
    Did you already have 5 stacks torment with Sneak Attack? (In a p/p power build this some 2500 damage against a moving target)
    Did you already have the ability to reset Mali 7 using Sneak attack thus garnering another source of 7 ini + boons?

    You get MORE Unloads now because you get More INI. The simple act of stealthing and attacking to flush your Malice will set you up for yet more unloads. Unload and build malice to seven. You get those boons and 7 ini. SMELD for stealth and sneak attack thus dumping your malice. You get the Torment damage and Mali recharges again and within less then 10 seconds you get another 7 ini plus those boons. You could not do that before.

  • @Turk.5460 said:

    @Anesco.8310 said:
    I think you notice two player types crystallizing out of here. Most people who don't play with rifles love the changes. Most people who play with a rifle don't like the changes. I don't want to take sides, but here ArenaNet would have to listen more to the players who play with a rifle. It's about sniper specialization. This is an elite specialization praised by the rifle. The advertisements of this specialization clearly showed the thief with a rifle. If these changes now make the gunplayers dissatisfied, Anet has done a bad job. Personally, I liked the gun-wearing thief as a sniper the way he was. It was about betting the mark and finding the right position and the right moment. If you don't like this way of playing, the thief gives enough other specializations to find something suitable. I think it is important that we gun-playing thieves continue to let ANet understand how dissatisfied this is for us. If not, ANet will certainly not change anything. ANet will wait for this little s...storm and then forget about the topic. So stay tuned and report your dissatisfaction via the forum.

    I main Rifle and I love the changes.

    I main Rifle and this is the worst thing ever done to an elite spec. Please rollback ty vm.

  • Eloc Freidon.5692Eloc Freidon.5692 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I now have no control over getting into stealth to implement Death's Judgement. When I try dodge rolling for stealth it doesn't seem to work reliably. I rather wait for Malice to build up once than having to build up Malice every time I attack.

  • Aistos.5174Aistos.5174 Member ✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Cameryn.5310 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    When you look at this objectively his simply not true. P/P is in a better place since these changes.

    No. We have lost the Malice boost to our damage output. The only way to use Malice now is to take the two cantrips that provide it. The net benefit of using those cantrips to stealth is a slight boost to skill #1 which allows the very same shot except for a VERY small amount of torment. There is no situation in which that is better than a round of Unload. P/P deadeyes lost the Malice damage output and gained nothing in return that we didn't already have.

    This would be a very easy fix for Arenanet if they made the very same deadeye talent that gained you stealth when dodging with a rifle function on other weapons as well.

    I have already rebutted that claim in detail.

    Did you already have 10 percent damage from Iron sight without the need of Malice?
    Did you already have 1 percent added damage per boon?
    Did you already have a 7 INI refund of INI on reaching 7 malice?
    Did you already have 5 stacks torment with Sneak Attack? (In a p/p power build this some 2500 damage against a moving target)
    Did you already have the ability to reset Mali 7 using Sneak attack thus garnering another source of 7 ini + boons?

    You get MORE Unloads now because you get More INI. The simple act of stealthing and attacking to flush your Malice will set you up for yet more unloads. Unload and build malice to seven. You get those boons and 7 ini. SMELD for stealth and sneak attack thus dumping your malice. You get the Torment damage and Mali recharges again and within less then 10 seconds you get another 7 ini plus those boons. You could not do that before.

    Maybe the dmg with P/P is higher, I don‘t know because I don‘t play P/P (if I‘m not forced through this patch...). And it‘s good for you if you like your P/P deadeye, really.
    But shouldn‘t DE offer a possibility to play rifle-DE as it was designed? Should it be all about P/P unload? Because at the moment it isn‘t fun to play with rifle at all. And I fear in two weeks everyone (= all the old rifle users) is running around with two pistols unloading the hell out of them. If you like this playstyle it‘s fine but i don‘t like the fact that you are forced to play like this. The Thief class will lose a big part of it‘s diversity just because of this patch and everyone else will start to complain about all the unload thiefs out there again (which is quite possible to end in a P/P DE nerf).

    So don‘t get me wrong, I haven‘t a problem with P/P thiefs at all. I just think this are two separate discussions and if we mix them up we are lost in both of them...

    I really hope some ANet devs see our problem and will at least change the rifle skills back, including stealth through kneeling and DJ.
    That wouldn‘t affect the P/P DE at all and the game would be much more diversified and fun to play again.

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea of malice being used to power up the sneak attacks, and that the sneak attacks are their own thing so they can be balanced separately. That said;

    1) Make malice give 1-2% damage per stack again, on top of the current iteration of iron sight. This will put damage back to where it was pre patch and mean sets without stealth access like P/P actually benefit from the spec as they used to.

    2) Revert the changes to the master traits. Seriously, the new options are nowhere near as good as the old, and we have lost build diversity to make way for... 10% cdr on kill? Really?

    3) If you're going to keep death's judgement the way it is, at least change that laughably bad smoke screen for a damaging skill so we're not forced to spam three round burst while waiting for malice. Either that or change malice to stack on autos as well, as right now malificent seven feels like a must to prevent running out of ini just to make the DJ possible.

    The new stealth mechanic has it's pros and cons, so I won't comment, but these three things would make the spec feel way less goofy than it now does.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • eldrjth.7384eldrjth.7384 Member ✭✭✭

    Well I dont see how any class game can play like an actual sniper, that is, stay and waiting for the opportune time to fire and at the same time expect to do decent damage. These players are probably just playing the PvP side of the game. From a PvE point of view every class has to rotate through their set of skills and fill in cooldown attacks with autos etc to reach reasonable benchmark numbers. Maybe what youre saying is the style of attack of death judgement is more to your taste than three round burst.

    I dont use rifle, but after testing it out Im more inclined to pick it up because of a few changes: removal the kneel cooldown/charge mechanic which makes rifle a hell of a lot more mobile than it was; got rid of the extra ini cost of silent scope; initiative return from M7 makes rifle not feel initiative starved as it was. I think it they just boosted dmg somehow to atleast where it was prepatch a lot of players would be satisfied. I might even switch over from pistols too.

  • TwiceDead.1963TwiceDead.1963 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @eldrjth.7384 said:
    Well I dont see how any class game can play like an actual sniper, that is, stay and waiting for the opportune time to fire and at the same time expect to do decent damage. These players are probably just playing the PvP side of the game. From a PvE point of view every class has to rotate through their set of skills and fill in cooldown attacks with autos etc to reach reasonable benchmark numbers. Maybe what youre saying is the style of attack of death judgement is more to your taste than three round burst.

    I dont use rifle, but after testing it out Im more inclined to pick it up because of a few changes: removal the kneel cooldown/charge mechanic which makes rifle a hell of a lot more mobile than it was; got rid of the extra ini cost of silent scope; initiative return from M7 makes rifle not feel initiative starved as it was. I think it they just boosted dmg somehow to atleast where it was prepatch a lot of players would be satisfied. I might even switch over from pistols too.

    This is kind of a separate issue from what you're talking about, but I just wanted to chime in on your first paragraph...
    I don't think you will be seeing any "Actual" snipers in this game, because PvP exists and the skills have to feel relatively same in both PvE and PvP... Which is ANET's words, not mine.

    On the balance side of things, a long-ranged hard-hitter works in FPS games because everything is hands-on, the snipers aim(and predictions in some cases of bullet-velocity) has to be on point, and the target can take evasive maneuvers to make the shot harder for the sniper, but even then, in some cases, snipers routinely get flak and bans from tournaments in certain games because they are deemed "Too Powerful". In an MMORPG a stealth-sniper simply cannot be balanced because the first part is done for you.

    So there's two ways to go about it to keep things fair in a PvP scenario, either it'll do tickle damage from afar, which is far from the one-shot sniper archetype, or you'll do major damage, but there'll be major tells for the opponent BECAUSE THERE HAS TO BE, to keep things fair... Or, the other classes will have way stronger counter-measures to survive a potential one-shot burst (passives, etc).

    The situation the Deadeye is and was in, is both of the above, in addition, GW2 has notoriously unreliable projectile pathing, where projectiles vanish out of thin air due to "unstable" terrain despite appearing like a flat field, which is best counteracted by hugging your opponent which defeats the entire purpose. This is admittedly a separate issue for making a stealthy burst-sniper viable and fair at the same time, but it muddles things nonetheless. GW2 is in a state of massive projectile hate in general, there's an abundance of sources for long-lasting projectile denial or reflects, and classes that don't bring these are rare.

    Rifle Deadeye was used to some success in sPvP by dedicated players, so they got it to work, but they didn't really play it like the "Sniper archetype" everyone wants it to be, who waits and delivers a massive one-shot burst.

    Because PvP exists, and you have to keep the gamemodes relatively fair (I am not implying that things are fair now) you won't be seeing this archetype in PvE unless ANET decides to make major splits between the two gamemodes to the point where the classes no longer feel the same in either.

  • Specialka.7290Specialka.7290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    Lots of bad players around here honestly. You can't check how many malice you have and care for your surroundings? Is this your first mmo?

    They just need to tweak the roll to reliably get stealth out of it, make that malice build on yourself and not your target so you can switch target easily or if the target dies too quickly(since they copy pasted the rogue from Wow, they could have fullt done it), and maybe tweak a little the damage for rifle since it seems to lack a little.

    Obviously, the new malice system is far better than the previous one which was boring and bland.

  • Dreadshow.9320Dreadshow.9320 Member ✭✭✭

    I really dislike replacing a damage dealer with a protective skill for a profession that don't care about protection. Change cover skill 4 back to the sniping skill it was please.

  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Specialka.7290 said:
    Lots of bad players around here honestly. You can't check how many malice you have and care for your surroundings? Is this your first mmo?

    They just need to tweak the roll to reliably get stealth out of it, make that malice build on yourself and not your target so you can switch target easily or if the target dies too quickly(since they copy pasted the rogue from Wow, they could have fullt done it), and maybe tweak a little the damage for rifle since it seems to lack a little.

    Obviously, the new malice system is far better than the previous one which was boring and bland.

    Nonsense.
    This is all about how the profession feels. This random malice reset on your marked target is stupid as heck.
    If my target is alive and marked for death, the malice should stay. And not forcing me to tumble around like a drunk after a night in the pubs just to get into stealth just to shoot my signature skill.

    And "to lack a little"? With the permanent reset of malice and removal of these?
    As a Rifle Deadeye all day (and before I used Dual Pistols before it was en vogue), I think I am more skilled just by that than the average player that cheese their way trough the game in zergs and with boons and people to help. The old Deadeye helped to play the solo'ist playstyle and survival, now it's just button mashing garbage.

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

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