Please do something about permanent stealth - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please do something about permanent stealth

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  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
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  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

    I still dont see where they can be "perma stealth". They will have to use a lot of utilities just for the joy of staying stealth. I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the changes, however does dodging remove the revealed debuff as well?

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Inoki.6048 said:
    With the addition of a sniper profession to the game you guys hopefully saw this coming. Mostly Deadeyes go for Zerk gear to maximise profession efficiency. Some go with Marauder, but the point is to go for maximum damage output possible. Do you expect someone with 11k health and no toughness whatsoever (mostly dies from one hit from anything) have other defences than stealth and somewhat mobility?

    Ofc not, because you don't care.

    You only care that your class wins and the moment you encounter something challenging you come to the forums to complain about what is a L2P issue. If you die to a Deadeye blame none but yourself.

    You can observe a mark above your head (the mark is a necessity for the Deadeye to build up Malice). Everything a Deadeye does is heavily telegraphed by visuals and sound. Bullets can be dodged (Matrix), reflected and blocked. The slightest narrow terrain or obstacle renders the bullet invalid.

    And you still die...

    ...because your ego and perhaps even arrogance leads you to oblivion; thinking you spent a decent amount of time to get the bling-bling for your class and now you think you can best anything in the game and call yourself the king.

    Here's the deal, you're not meant to win all battles. You just don't get it.

    It amuses me watching people playing other hyper-buffed classes come moan to developers about the squishiest class that contrary to many demands proper strategy to everything you do unless you play a dodge junkie like S/D or S/P which doesn't require stealth at all because the dodges are OP as duck.

    Playing a Deadeye with the lowest health pool and no toughness is like living on the edge. You get the adrenaline rush pretty much every time you misfire because you have to quickly do something to survive and given the fact you are a sitting duck in the open you resort to what? That's right, you stealth or use Shadowstep (one time use in 50s) or rifle 4 if you have any initiative left to get away ASAP or bow 5 if you run such a build.

    Stealth is the primary / core mechanic of the Deadeye. Remove that and there is no point in the Deadeye to begin with.

    Since when do snipers operate in plain sight?

    Other thief variants like Staff DD, D/P, S/D - you name it - don't require a whole lot of stealth, if any at all. It's this single profession that is built around it. I don't think they'll do anything about it and I think they shouldn't, because once they do it will render the aspect of the profession useless. It's like tearing a beating heart out of one's body if you remove stealth from the Deadeye. Stealth is essence to snipers. If people refuse to understand this not much can be done.

    Peace <3

    this is not tru i have played deadeye before this buffed up / nerf whatever u call it patch, and i played non stealth build.

    just mark > stun > stun sigil +30%? dmg bla balaaba
    i pretty much wrecked my kitten through backlines from blobs without having stealth build no1 would get close to me.
    like u said i can shadowstep i can do rifle 4 skill, ofcourse i could stealth somehow but never had the need as i could simply retreat so fast any1 that would follow me to that point was so far dragged off his blob commander he would simply die.

    now again i admit i strongly dislike stealth builds even tho thief is my all time favorite in gw2 i just cant stand stealthing for everything, yes i stealth also but i dont attack > run > stealth > attack > run > stealth > attack.

    i might stealth > attack > die or win. i prefer these kind of fights then me choosing when to launch and when to hide like a kitten to attack again.
    when u fight with constant stealth ur opponent has no chance its like ur just making the person u fight cripple u hit u hide u hit u hide u hit u hide untill hes crippled enough that he or she cant do a kitten anymore and basically left to die.
    yes that might be how some people think thief is played i personally find it the most boring way to play cus theres nothing involved u dont get the thrills of a good fight cus person u was fighting didnt even get to fight back. u could aswell go play PvE same kitten kitten easy and npc's barely fight back.

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    not sure but deadeye dodge + random skills + d/p + some endurance food + adventure runes maybe u can do perma stealth or atleast long enough for u to constantly hide and when about to run out u can prolly find a spot where people will still not see u and u can hide up again.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

    I still dont see where they can be "perma stealth". They will have to use a lot of utilities just for the joy of staying stealth. I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the changes, however does dodging remove the revealed debuff as well?

    no it doesnt remove revealed, but you only get revealed by some enemy attacks , anti stealth traps and the sand around earth keep on DBL and ofc your own attacks . so why would you need to spamm reveal remove for permastealth?

    edit and for all the 'i think', 'probably possible' etc a little demonstration:

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:
    a good thief wont ever shoot into your reflect, or cancel his attack and wait your block out

    The new Death's Judgment is unblockable. Blocks/reflects/projectile destruction have no effect on it.

    even better for them and more frustrating for their enemies i guess

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

    I still dont see where they can be "perma stealth". They will have to use a lot of utilities just for the joy of staying stealth. I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the changes, however does dodging remove the revealed debuff as well?

    no it doesnt remove revealed, but you only get revealed by some enemy attacks , anti stealth traps and the sand around earth keep on DBL and ofc your own attacks . so why would you need to spamm reveal remove for permastealth?

    Because in a fight, if you want to do damage you will be revealed, and there are only so many times you can remove the debuff. In my mind (where I havent seen it happen and have no idea on how they can do it in this day and age), its either they attack to kill (which they cant be "perma stealth" due to the # of times they will need to be revealed after doing damage...thus not being a "perma stealth" DE, or attack for lulz, where maybe 1 attack every X seconds so when they attack, they can elite remove revealed and stay "perma stealth".

    Perma stealth means to stay in stealth permanently, which, afaik can't actually happen (at least if they have intent on attacking someone).

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

    I still dont see where they can be "perma stealth". They will have to use a lot of utilities just for the joy of staying stealth. I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the changes, however does dodging remove the revealed debuff as well?

    no it doesnt remove revealed, but you only get revealed by some enemy attacks , anti stealth traps and the sand around earth keep on DBL and ofc your own attacks . so why would you need to spamm reveal remove for permastealth?

    Because in a fight, if you want to do damage you will be revealed, and there are only so many times you can remove the debuff. In my mind (where I havent seen it happen and have no idea on how they can do it in this day and age), its either they attack to kill (which they cant be "perma stealth" due to the # of times they will need to be revealed after doing damage...thus not being a "perma stealth" DE, or attack for lulz, where maybe 1 attack every X seconds so when they attack, they can elite remove revealed and stay "perma stealth".

    Perma stealth means to stay in stealth permanently, which, afaik can't actually happen (at least if they have intent on attacking someone).

    oh right. you can stay permastealthed to avoid a fight.
    you can aswell attack without being revealed , but just with very few attacks that well shouldnt be able to kill unless you got 0 condi cleanse.
    steal/ mark with DA (without Mug) inflficts poison without a hit, BA trait in trickery inflicts confusion without a hit and caltrops, maybe as asura the condi racial aswell. thats pretty much all there is you can deal damage wise without being revealed. a few stacks poison and confusion.

    but the people in this thread have an issue with the permastealth to avoid a fight thing. that people can start a fight out of permastealth and go back into permastealth if they dont want to fight anymore.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    see i want stealth, i dont care for mobility and rarely make use of it :D

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2018

    nm not long enough

  • @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    Ah yes, you talking about solo spellbreakers that kite around 30+ zergs?

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
    WHen you trigger a thief's trap (assuming it deals physical damage) it does reveal the thief. They then need to use their elite to stealth again.

    All you need to do is keep taking DPS damage. The stealth DE elite can only be used so often.

    Also...I have yet to see a "perma stealth" thief in this day and age and have no idea on how they would be built anymore. (I used to play a ghost thief back in the day for the lolz)

    with new DE it is enough to be in combat and dodge to gain permastealth. and as you dont want your target to regain health, you will remain near and in combat anyway.

    I still dont see where they can be "perma stealth". They will have to use a lot of utilities just for the joy of staying stealth. I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the changes, however does dodging remove the revealed debuff as well?

    no it doesnt remove revealed, but you only get revealed by some enemy attacks , anti stealth traps and the sand around earth keep on DBL and ofc your own attacks . so why would you need to spamm reveal remove for permastealth?

    Because in a fight, if you want to do damage you will be revealed, and there are only so many times you can remove the debuff. In my mind (where I havent seen it happen and have no idea on how they can do it in this day and age), its either they attack to kill (which they cant be "perma stealth" due to the # of times they will need to be revealed after doing damage...thus not being a "perma stealth" DE, or attack for lulz, where maybe 1 attack every X seconds so when they attack, they can elite remove revealed and stay "perma stealth".

    Perma stealth means to stay in stealth permanently, which, afaik can't actually happen (at least if they have intent on attacking someone).

    oh right. you can stay permastealthed to avoid a fight.
    you can aswell attack without being revealed , but just with very few attacks that well shouldnt be able to kill unless you got 0 condi cleanse.
    steal/ mark with DA (without Mug) inflficts poison without a hit, BA trait in trickery inflicts confusion without a hit and caltrops, maybe as asura the condi racial aswell. thats pretty much all there is you can deal damage wise without being revealed. a few stacks poison and confusion.

    but the people in this thread have an issue with the permastealth to avoid a fight thing. that people can start a fight out of permastealth and go back into permastealth if they dont want to fight anymore.

    Ah, ty for the clarification. Appreciate it.

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • atheria.2837atheria.2837 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:
    Last night a deadeye kept marking and attacking me in stealth and never got revealed.

    DONT YOU LOVE FIGHTING INVISIBLE PEOPLE???

    Go spellbreaker, sword/board and rifle. Laugh at their corpse.

    Right... you'd have to prove that one to me.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AfroMetal.5394 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    Ah yes, you talking about solo spellbreakers that kite around 30+ zergs?

    show me one, pls i beg you, no spellbreaker can survive even 3 ppl that read their skills and know when to use them, try again pls

  • @RedShark.9548 said:

    @AfroMetal.5394 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    Ah yes, you talking about solo spellbreakers that kite around 30+ zergs?

    show me one, pls i beg you, no spellbreaker can survive even 3 ppl that read their skills and know when to use them, try again pls

    Really thanks for lowering difficulty threshold, cause couldn't find those of more trollish situaton when spellbreaker give his all into running away from zerg trying to kill him (for some they may be fun, but for some may be considered boring or shameful because no killing and running from fight) and I do not have time to look for really accurate evidence vid that would support my claim (~30 ppl zerg). Still got sth nice for you (3+ ppl):

    And next one, careful, spoiler - this spellbreaker will die at the end, but how long he/she played around...

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    So make another thread about sb being trolly, topic here was the mechanics of stealth I believe.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    wait, u want to remove thiefs mobility? did u ever play thief?
    go run thief and dont use any mobility skills bet u wont win a single fight vs any player that has a avarage skill lvl.

  • @Dralor.3701 said:
    So make another thread about sb being trolly, topic here was the mechanics of stealth I believe.

    So to make it more clear, I used reverse argument (or "exceptions") that proved, that other classes, besides stealthy thief, can fulfill quoted "it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once" making this particular argument invalid. To be even more blunt so it would be obvious that we are talking about stealth - stealth and mobility allow thiefs to do things that other classes also can do (in their own way, I am totally not saying that spellbraker can use thiefs SB 5 then pop shadowstep, duh). If you take them away then it wouldn't be possible to perform action of running away form a few people that really want to kill you.
    Then it would be truly unbalanced.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Imo in a perfect world they nerf stealth/invis but compensate thief somehow.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    Imo in a perfect world they nerf stealth/invis but compensate thief somehow.

    more evades and stealth attacks usable during evade? oh wait that was the other class..

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    Imo in a perfect world they nerf stealth/invis but compensate thief somehow.

    more evades and stealth attacks usable during evade? oh wait that was the other class..

    Well hopefully not that as that class is both ridiculous and the most frustrating thing to play against. But maybe some reasonable form of survivability.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Very few of them play WvW or Spvp.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:
    if he camps stealth he will be long in stealth wich means your cooldowns will be up again. if he uses shadowstep every time that is on 50s cd base or reduced 40s so enough time to recover. if he goes in and out of stealth quickly, then you should be able to counter preassure as thieves also do have cooldowns on escape skills.

    there is no way to force him not to stalk you forver, same as there is no way to force a zerg comming towards you to line up and 1 on 1, one after the other. if the person is doing that all the time you are online and transfers to keep following you tho, then report.

    sure it might be annoying, but it is not strong. stealth wont kill you , a oneshot might but those are two seperate things.

    the recent patch to DE pushes them not to remain in stealth and stalk but to attack and gives them more safety doing it, while stealthed malice gain was nerfed alot. but it doesnt take stealth away from them, just makes them less of a thread when stealthed. wich is good. now i can play a build that can still infiltrate keeps without worry about anti stealth trap spamm and without the need to go for a oneshot gimmick. i personally havent seen a deadeye even trying to stealth camp since patch, apart from my self. and i run into alot of them , probably people testing stuff. try playing it yourself and see how stupid it is with the new patch to stalk a target you will have a hard time not feeling useless thats far from strong.

    yes stealth kills me because they can engage and disengage whenever it fits them, so i get kited to death easily, with almost no counterplay to.it, except luckily oneshotting them, which is no real counterplay at all

    it is not stealth that kills you, because while they stealth you regain resources, cooldowns, endurance, hp etc.
    if i just engage, dont disengage with stealth but kill you on first engage, then you got a better chance i guess? i would probably need to spamm some evades or invuln or what ever in that time so you feel like you got a chance , because you are fighting back!
    i killed way more people while they were stealthed then while they were invuln / evading.

    and to your keep infiltrating stuff, that kitten is bs aswell, no one should be able to be unseen in a keep for that long, they know you are there, they cant fight you 1v1 rly, so there have to be multiple ppl in that keep, looking for some single cancerous thief so he cant flip the objectiv, drawing multiple ppl from the zerg or get them so bored that they commit suicide and you can flip the objective on purpose. there is no argument that would legitimate that kind of gameplay, thats just dumb

    yes i know i should not be able to bother more then 1 person at a time, thats why those roaming guilds allways keep ganking solo roamers, wich pushed me to play with more and more escape potential, till i now can escape even zergs in their keeps. thats very cancerous of those roaming guilds.

    stealth is one of the main reasons ive almost completely stopped roaming and thus almost completely stopped playing this game, because wvw is the only mode i play and only playing in a zerg gets boring quick

    people grouping up to outnumber other roamers is the reason i took a few breaks, then i started to stealth.

    ive read your regaining resources while thief is stealthed argument the first time dude, and its absolute BS, nobody can gain that much health back while not using high cd skills, i WILL have stuff on cd if i got bursted like that, its not like the thief needs to stay in stealth for 30-40sec, he just needs it to gain some distance and come at me again after my defensive stuff ran out

    resources mean either some hp if you have regeneration still up or passive heal skills / traits and cooldowns, every second they are gone your cooldowns come closer to be ready again. same for the thief.
    now if the thief doesnt need as much time to recover all his cooldowns / hp etc. that means the thief needs too low resources to heal , deal damage, cc or escape. or it means your vulnerability windows are too long as the they are longer then the thief needs to recover, that can either be you having too long cooldowns or wasting too much per engage of the thief.
    for example thief vs warrior:
    if warrior is terrible, the thief will kill him on 1. engage. if the warrior is average then maybe on 2nd or 3rd. if the warrior is good it will either be endless or till either side makes a mistake.
    most people that die to this poking playstyle (and no you do not need stealth for it, you can aswell do that with mobility) do so because they invest too much in one of the engages wich leaves them vulnerable for the next.

    but all this is not a stealth issue, you dont need stealth to reset and reengage. every thief build that does not have near infite evades is doing this or the thief will lose any encounter.

    ...are you serious...ok its not stealth alone, izs the fact that they got stealth, INSANE mobility, incredible amounts of dodges, blinds and burst
    a class with that much stealth should have a drawback atleast in mobility, it cant be that someone can easily run away from 4 or 5 ppl, nobody should be able to do that, if 5ppl rly want you dead you should be dead, atleast when you were in melee range once, ofc not when they are still 1500 range away, but when you get melee and 5 ppl decide to chase you, you should be a deadman walking, you dont even rly have to juke them with stealth, because of the mobility, remobe stealth, or mobility, both is just too much honestly, its just frustrating to play against that cancerous playstyle

    DE has an incredible amount of dodges? More than other professions? I mean...maybe if you take SoA and use it's active you'll get one extra dodge every 30s...
    Please explain.

    Simply using 40% endurance regen food allows for comparable dodges from the meta Mirage and Warrior/SB builds - and Mirage dodges are better.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question.

    Maybe I’m out of touch with all the pof stuff as I’ve only played a few of the new elites, which classes/elites have revealed debuffs now?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question.

    Maybe I’m out of touch with all the pof stuff as I’ve only played a few of the new elites, which classes/elites have revealed debuffs now?

    nekro(core) , engi(all), guard(dh), warrior(all), ranger(all) , rev(herald)
    and in WvW everyone with that undodgeable traps.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Dami.5046 said:
    yes, yes the three times yes. I have never played a game that at least some professions didn't have a skill that could see thru 'hide/stealth, even for a few seconds. I don't even mean a counter, a bone fide ' i can see you skill '

    The Majority of classes have skills which apply the Reveal Debuff which removes stealth and stops the gaining of stealth outside of one elite with a decent cast time..... so the game has skills that counter and reveals stealth players

    Please define majority? I can only think of a few who get a reveal debuff.

    6 out of 9 classes have access to abilities that apply Revealed debuff to others, idk simple math And definition of majority shows that’s the majority.... ie more than half the classes.

    But again those pesky facts.

    Don’t have to be sarcastic, just asking an honest question.

    Maybe I’m out of touch with all the pof stuff as I’ve only played a few of the new elites, which classes/elites have revealed debuffs now?

    Necro, War/SB, Eng/Scrap, DH, Ranger, Herald.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    Weird, must have missed it when they have it to core necro.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    Weird, must have missed it when they have it to core necro.

    It was added when they made all Tether skills apply reveal baseline.

  • I agree! Definitely something to help counter stealth more in the game. Stealth and extreme mobility always seem like a low risk high reward set up, which should be the opposite. Every time I fight someone who can stealth, I always feel like they have a get out of jail free card with no consequences.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They've been adding reveal skills like at least once a year now.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed

    Spellbreaker Sight beyond Sight, PoF expansion Sep 2017
    Spellbreaker Magebane Tether (trait skill), PoF expansion Sep 2017
    Dragonhunter Spear of Justice, May 2017
    Necromancer Tainted Shackles, May 2017
    Warrior "On My Mark!", Oct 2016
    Dragonhunter Light's Judgment, HoT expansion Oct 2015
    Herald Gaze of Darkness, HoT expansion Oct 2015
    Scrapper Detection Pulse, HoT expansion Oct 2015
    Engineer Lock On (trait skill), Jun 2015
    Engineer Analyze, Sep 2014
    Ranger "Sic 'Em!", Oct 2013
    Stealth trap, May 2013

    Mesmer, elementalist, thieves, are missing on the list.

    "Is there pvp stuff for this?" "Absolutely, eh we actually have a new armor set coming soon."
    "From the back of the room!, the one pvp fan! we got him! WoAH!"
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    What perma-stealth? Didn't they just nerf that silly "turn invisible when you bend your knees" Deadeye trait?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What perma-stealth? Didn't they just nerf that silly "turn invisible when you bend your knees" Deadeye trait?

    they changed it to dodge for permastealth.

  • Shining One.1635Shining One.1635 Member ✭✭✭

    Personally, I don't have a problem with permanent stealth... if there is a sufficient sacrifice for it. If I were redesigning stealth, I'd severely nerf the existing durations and make it scale with Concentration. Thus, players who want to permastealth can still do so, but they have to sacrifice a chunk of their damage.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What perma-stealth? Didn't they just nerf that silly "turn invisible when you bend your knees" Deadeye trait?

    they changed it to dodge for permastealth.

    Is that any better than Bound + Blackpowder combo though?

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2018

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    What perma-stealth? Didn't they just nerf that silly "turn invisible when you bend your knees" Deadeye trait?

    they changed it to dodge for permastealth.

    Is that any better than Bound + Blackpowder combo though?

    yes bound + blackpowder will reveal you if you hit something and the blackpowder can be seen. you dont see a dodge of an invisible opponent and it doesnt selfreveal as no hits. also deadeye gets 4s stealth per dodge, 3s per bound so need more endurance for bound ontop of ini cost for black powder.

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    Personally, I don't have a problem with permanent stealth... if there is a sufficient sacrifice for it. If I were redesigning stealth, I'd severely nerf the existing durations and make it scale with Concentration. Thus, players who want to permastealth can still do so, but they have to sacrifice a chunk of their damage.

    as long as you use SA, you give up alot of offensive potential.

  • simple solution: remove stealth from wvw.

    It is utterly broken. It destroys all the fun. Remove it and be done.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    simple solution: remove stealth from wvw.

    It is utterly broken. It destroys all the fun. Remove it and be done.

    So then, what new class will you introduce for thief?

    Or how long do you want the Devs to focus on a whole class rebuild from the ground up?

    In sure you like the state of the game in every other area. No worries about needing to put most development in hold while they either create a whole new class, or, create a whole new thief from ground up.

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • new class? rebuild? not needed at all.

    Thieves can do enough stuff without stealth. Just remove it. Done. Or are you implying that thief players can only do anything, when they are invisible and their devastating attacks are unblockable? That they are THAT bad?

    Surely not?

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    new class? rebuild? not needed at all.

    Thieves can do enough stuff without stealth. Just remove it. Done. Or are you implying that thief players can only do anything, when they are invisible and their devastating attacks are unblockable? That they are THAT bad?

    Surely not?

    Of course. However, while traitlines are developed around it, have you never played the class?

    Skills and attacks are built around it as well. But you of course know that. So, should we keep the really helpful hyperbole up? Or....,

    Thank You for the {MEME}

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    new class? rebuild? not needed at all.

    Thieves can do enough stuff without stealth. Just remove it. Done. Or are you implying that thief players can only do anything, when they are invisible and their devastating attacks are unblockable? That they are THAT bad?

    Surely not?

    i would like to remove all mobility skills, this is not a racing game and would you imply that all the people using them cannot do without them?

  • I am fine with mobility skills being removed.

    would hurt thieves more than anyone else. No shadowstep? Yeah.. try to sell that to them.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2018

    thats cool, next we remove evades , invulns and blocks. and then we just need to remove range attacks, strong cc, ... , ... , ...
    why not just give everyone a stick like in SAB and call that balanced ? :D

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Like it or not, Stealth needs a fundamental change as a mechanic to keep it as a tool to engage and disengage, while preventing it to become a tool to avoid combat for too long, too often.

    The reason stealth as it is is a problem is because maps are very large and open and it causes total invisibility without any tells. There's no narrow corridors and a limited number of places where someone can go while under stealth or spammable effects that can reveal them at any time like with Spies and Pyros in TF2 maps, so the longer stealth can last, the more uncertain the location of the cloaked character. When a character goes into stealth, the area where it could be gets larger and larger as time goes by. PBAoE reveal skills are not enough to act as a counter to this behavior since they have limited availability and tend to have long cooldowns and little use outside revealing.
    So, it all comes down to the invisibility lasting too long. With strong attacks, that leaves a thief all the time in the world to wait and land the hit. And if they can pump conditions, they can spam them and go into stealth and wait. There's no urgency to land a hit before stealth runs out, and if the enemy uses revealed, they can just run away and come back again under a long stealth.

    Sooner or later more people will realize they GW2 needs a similarly controversial stealth change, since that style of permanent invisible stealth will not work in GW2's large and open maps.
    With open and wide combat areas, stealth can only be truly invisible for enough time to start running away or ready a stealth attack, then become partially visible, to reduce the "Uncertainty area" where a cloaked enemy can be after entering stealth.


    For example, it could be changed to something like this to work better for GW2:

    • Stealth would be "Unrevealable" and be completely invisible to enemies for only the first 1-3 seconds of its duration, depending on the skill giving it and certain traits and upgrade modifiers. This could be done with a second "Invisible" or "Unrevealable" effect.

      • During this "Unrevealable" time, attacking enemies will still end stealth and cause Revealed.
      • "Unrevealable" would not make the cloaked character immune to Revealed, it would instead act as Resistance for it. The remaining duration will still apply, but it will do nothing until Unrevealable ends. So if an enemy used one of those PBAoE Revealed skills with a long 4-6s Revealed duration, it'll take effect right away after Unrevealable ends.
      • During this time Stealth would be immune to itself too.
      • So, for example, Elite skills like Mass Invisibility could give a longer Unrevealable, and Rune of infiltration could finally get an actual use by adding +1s unrevealable to stealth effects on self.
    • After that initial time, any extra duration would no longer be full invisibility. It would be a 'Revealable' stealth that is partially visible as a faint translucent shimmer, more visible while moving, that allows players that pay attention to see where you are.

      • 'Revealable' Stealth would still prevent enemies from targeting cloaked characters and seeing their nameplate and health, homing projectiles would ignore cloaked characters and fly in a straight line if fired in their direction, allowing them to strafe away from their path. NPCs and AI like pets, summons and illusions would not target or follow the cloaked character under revealable Stealth either.
      • But non-targeted attacks like cleaves, PBAoEs, ground targeted AoEs and manually aimed projectiles may still hit if done right, just as with the current Stealth as usual. It would just be easier to see where the thief is after some seconds of entering Stealth.
    • Stealth would no longer stack, using it while under the 'Revealable' portion of stealth would just replace the current stealth with another one, and give the unrevealable effect again. And as mentioned before, using it while under the "Unrevealable" time will do nothing, as the character would be immune to it like when used under Revealed.

      • To compensate that it becomes partially visible after a few seconds and that it can no longer stack (sorry sneaky mesmers!), some skills that grant stealth would give a permanent stealth, or an extremely long stealth like 2 , 5 10 mins or more.
      • Going into gliding mode would still remove stealth even while Unrevealable, and if mounts ever get added to WvW, mounting would also remove it.

    Another possibility that would affect mostly condition builds would be a way to build up revealed without revealing with a single attack, but based on hits dealt and damage done.
    This would prevent playstyles that basically consist of spamming conditions then waiting under stealth, or also prevent people that you just cloaked to get instantly revealed because they had a projectile mid-flight they couln't stop, improving teamplay with Steatlh.

    It could work something like this:

    • Dealing damage while under stealth would build up a secondary effect that could be called something like "Suspicion".

      • The icon could be the gray crosshair from revealed but with a blue question mark instead a red eye.
      • This effect would stack to 25 stacks.
      • When 25 stacks are reached, all stacks of Suspicion and all Stealth effects are removed, and Revealed is applied for 4s or 3s depending on the game mode.
      • Revealed Training will NOT work with Suspicion, only with Revealed as usual.
    • Sneak Attacks and skills that currently forcefully cause revealed would deal Revealed directly as per usual.

    • Dealing direct damage to enemies under stealth would deal 20 stacks of Suspicion on critical hits, and 10 stacks on normal hits.

      • This change will give a little leeway to allies and when fighting with projectiles. A single hit after getting stealth won't reveal you, so if you are attacking with projectiles and you get stealth between firing a projectile and the projectile hitting, or if an ally gives you stealth right before an attack, you will be less likely to lose stealth instantly before you can react.
    • Dealing a stack of a condition would give 1 stack of Suspicion.

      • And here's the solution of the problem of condition+stealth. Builds that deal many conditions in little time then hide on stealth would no logner work as effectively. With Suspicion introduced, they would still stay safe if they never reach 25 stacks across all conditions, which is too little to kill anyone with a modicum of survivability, and they will have to leave stealth eventually if they want to finish the enemy. And if it's too much or too little, changes can be done for conditions to deal more or less Suspicion, and some non-damaging conditions could even deal no Suspicion, allowing lots of leeway for adjustment.
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