Rifle Deadeye PVE Benchmarks / Lower DPS

If anyone else has benchmarks they'd like to share, feel free to.I simply want to bring this to the attention of devs, as the iconic Rifle build has received a major hit in PVE.

Post 5/8/18 patch. 25.3K DPS

Pre 5/8/18 patch. 32.2 DPS

Currently, D/D Deadeye is the only DPS spec that can match our old DPS range.Outside of that, Condi Daredevil and Staff Daredevil are still fairly viable damage wise as well, but this is about the Deadeye elite spec.Post 5/8/18 patch. 31.0 DPS

I have dozens of suggestions in mind but for now, I just want to bring this to the attention of the anet dev team.

We can automatically assume the DPS is lower. The changes weren't trying to improve this

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:We can automatically assume the DPS is lower. The changes weren't trying to improve this.There is no assuming, generally speaking every single Deadeye spec/weapon combination that I've tested (Except for D/D) received a damage reduction due to the change in Malice and the shuffling of traits. But more specific to Rifle, the change to Death Judgement.

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:We can automatically assume the DPS is lower. The changes weren't trying to improve this.There is no assuming, generally speaking every single Deadeye spec/weapon combination that I've tested (Except for D/D) received a damage reduction due to the change in Malice and the shuffling of traits. But more specific to Rifle, the change to Death Judgement.

I'm fine with it to be honest. I don't raid with public players, just ten coworkers who do what they please. And the changes made it a lot more fun in PvP.

Some of the sneak attacks I would change however. I like how the bow shatters. I like the backstab hitting like a C130 nose diving. Sword I'm questioning. But pistol could be different.

PvE wise. It's not bad in T4. Dungeons are not bad. You'll get ROFLSTOMP in CSM however by that ball game. And Mai Trin... We don't talk about.

Every PVE Thief should have a problem with this damage reduction, even you.Pre patch, we were in middle to high grounds damage wise. But now, you're going to be at the bottom of the line (Close to support classes DPS). There is 0 reason to bring anything but D/D Deadeyes to Raids/T4 CM's if a support Power Chrono can rival your DPS while also supporting the entire group with all of their lyssa blessed boons.https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

@Tashigi.3159 said:Every PVE Thief should have a problem with this damage reduction, even you.

No, every Thief who cares about raids should have a problem with this. Which is not nearly enough to warrant further attention by the Dev's. Please stop.

Sorry, not every Thief - every DE. An even lower percentage of the population. This is trivial and there are much more pressing matters that ANET can and is spending manpower on.

@Turk.5460 said:Please stop.No thanks.If they had the manpower to rework Deadeye and nerf it's damage this much, then they have the manpower to fix it.

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Please stop.No thanks.If they had the manpower to rework Deadeye and nerf it's damage this much, then they have the manpower to fix it.

Too bad it doesn't need fixing, just a tweak of a trait. :)

@Turk.5460 said:Too bad it doesn't need fixing, just a tweak of a trait. :)You're right. It can be fixed with 1 trait tweak and I can think of a few. But out of curiousity, what trait are you thinking of?

Silent Scope - Move the stealth to the end of the dodge roll.

@Turk.5460 said:Silent Scope - Move the stealth to the end of the dodge roll.That's a good start to fix the bug with DJ unstealthing. But the damage would remain the same. You can currently stop it from bugging by using #3 on Rifle as you are about to dodge roll. If you time it well, it will let you stay stealthed but your DPS will still be 26.5K vs the old 32.2K (Still a big DPS loss).

The only way to fix this damage issue is by yes, applying that change you suggested and then adding 11% damage total, across other traits, such as Silent Scope, M7 and Malicious Intent.You could try tweaking the raw/direct damage from Rifle by modifying the damage but I would rather this 11% damage bonus be distributed more evenly on traits, so Sword/Pistol and Rifle users all benefit, as all of those weapons are currently taking a damage hit.

They said blatantly that the brought the damage of rifle up and that they were happy with it. Then they decided to change how it played. The damage dropped. If they were happy with it then they WANTED it to be higher. So because it is so much lower then we can come to the conclusion that they are no longer happy with it right?!? So we should keep telling them and providing them with data proving its lower. So they can at least buff rifle damage.

Prepatch Kitty pulled 31508 (that one time when Kitty surpassed SC's initial bench) and now she pulled 25168 on a good attempt without missing a stealth. But as it is, last attack of rifle 3 or auto-attack forcing out of stealth mid-evade does make it quite unplayable properly in real situations.

E: That original post's post-patch benchmark...shouldn't be using precision signet but initiative signet as rifle DE already overcaps crit even without that prec signet =.='

@Turk.5460 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:Every PVE Thief should have a problem with this damage reduction, even you.

Goodness. You're here talking, I assume you play Deadeye and you should have realised by now that we are all in this mess together.

Fixing the Silent Scope bug would not resolve the issue with Rifle in PvE either. Much of Deadeye's DPS pre-patch came from auto and being able to continuously put out some sort of damage. The mechanic of the new Silent Scope, which requires time where no damage is being dealt to unkneel, kneel and dodge, further reduces thief's damage potential. Couple that with the lack of the 21% multiplicative modifier and a replacement by a 10% modifier leading to Death's Judgment being weaker along previous developer statements on Deadeye DPS being in a good place and it is blatantly clear that this issue should be looked.

You can always point to dagger/dagger now doing slightly more damage than pre-patch but that only serves to reinforce how bad this rework was - those numbers are achieved by ignoring the new Malice mechanic and all synergistic traits. The rotation is also incredibly basic and insipid gameplay. If you recall, maintaining Deadeye DPS, improving gameplay, improving synergy and making Malice more involved were all intentions of this rework. The state of Deadeye in PvE shows that Anet achieved none of this.

@LadyKitty.6120 said:Prepatch Kitty pulled 31508 (that one time when Kitty surpassed SC's initial bench) and now she pulled 25168 on a good attempt without missing a stealth. But as it is, last attack of rifle 3 or auto-attack forcing out of stealth mid-evade does make it quite unplayable properly in real situations.E: That original post's post-patch benchmark...shouldn't be using precision signet but initiative signet as rifle DE already overcaps crit even without that prec signet =.='I tried with both, it didn't make any difference in the end, was always hovering around 25K to 25.5KAlso tried using Spider Venom with Thieves Guild to see if it helped any, it didn't. Similar results, likely due to the cast time on Thieves Guild. Though, without Elite stealth, messing up new Silent Scope dodge roll likely has to do with that, too. But I account that to be around 500-900 DPS or so.

Thank you for sharing your numbers. I see we are getting similar numbers, too.

The best thief dps doesnt use malice anymore.

@"Miatela.5047" said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:Every PVE Thief should have a problem with this damage reduction, even you.

Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

Fair enough. But people also had the some worse complaints when Deadeye was released about how everything fitted together.

I can understand why Deadeye is weaker. Anet probably did not want to risk another mesmer.

My experience tells me it's easier to low-ball and buff. Than make em powerful and nerf

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

We weren't even close to the top of the meters. There really isnt a risk.

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

Neither was mesmer

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Tashigi.3159 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

Well they're still number two so.. yay them?

ADPS nerf affects everybody. The ability for a class to perform well is directly tied to how well players who play it will enjoy the game. Nobody likes being impotent or kicked from groups. We all want to do what we want, but more importantly we wan't to do it well. Right now, the rifle is doing about as much damage as the Renegade shortbow.

Honestly, if they just buff the numbers a tad, OR move/add a damage modifier trait that is more abusable in raid settings but less so in other game modes, and fix the stealth reveal issue, it would be enjoyable and dare I say, acceptable to use it in raiding on some bosses.

As it is now, its literally a determent to your squad to bring it. Even the "lazy" 31k dps Dagger / Dagger has absolutely no reason to be used over virtually every other build that is currently used in raiding.

Consider:

1: Requires melee on the squishiest profession ties with Weaver, making it harder to maintain Scholar / not go downed.2: Requires extremely high flanking up-time, and missed backstabs are really going to lower its realistic damage.

3. Offers absolutely ZERO break bar potential. None. Not even a single daze.
4. Cleaves absolutely 1 additional target in tiny area, and backstab/heartseeker is single.
5. Offers no additional utility in the form of any passive enhancements, vulnerability stacking, ancillary boons, additional damage for allies ... nothing.
6. It is not using the profession mechanic as designed, and rewards ignoring the mechanic entirely. This is a failed design implementation and needs to be fixed.

Even if the hypothetical "use rifle above 50%, and daggers below 50%, use the malice mechanic correctly, and stealth is fixed on rifle to not reveal" AND if it's damage was enhanced to a potential that matches or surpasses Mirage/Weaver on single target small hit box bosses with heavy flanking access... it would still be rarely taken due to the above restrictions.

Mirage and Weaver can cleave. Mirage can be effective against moving or positional-unfriendly bosses (matthias), Weaver will be superior on large hit box.

Currently, Power Warrior/spellbreaker, heck even Berserker, offers more in every way than any power thief build currently available. If that doesn't explain the really poor state of raiding for Thief, I don't know what will.

There are plenty of ways to make adjustments, but I'd consider the following:

1. Switch the positioning of Premeditation and One In the Chamber. This will allow Rifle builds to have access to both, and will only really impact Raid Deadeye builds and coordinated group WVW builds.
2. Silent Scope - add additional effect "Reveal will not be applied from attacking foes for 1/2 second after entering Stealth." This will prevent the annoying "shot still in the air and hits as I stealth" negative interaction, but will still allow Death's Judgement to apply Reveal like normal.
3. Vastly adjust the PVE damage on Heart Seeker below 50%, and remove the 25% additional bonus. Essentially, make the 25% current ratio kick in at 50%. Hearseeker spam + CnD + Backstab should, on a single target, should be the single highest benchmark possible in the game on small hit boxes due to the limitations.
4. Consider adding an effect to Death Blossom that makes it deal additional damage to foes above 50% health, allowing Power dagger builds to build Malice with it instead of Heartseeker, so that the "best" damage rotation doesn't involve prioritizing auto attacks. Ideally, this should do LESS damage than the Rifle above 50%, but not too far off. This would be preferred in situations with adds that might block rifle shots, or when being immobile is really a bad idea.
5. Lastly, adjust the base damage on rifle in PVE only on auto, Three Round Burst, and Death's Judgement. With the above changes, my guess is around a straight 20% boost across the board.

If the above changes happened, we could see a very low 25.3k benchmark enhanced by a (now available) ~10-13% (max boons) modifier, with a 20% base boost to the rifle's output (in PVE), bringing a "pure" Rifle build to around 33.4k damage bench, which is ... shocker ... almost exactly where a lot of other easy rotations that are hard to mess up fall around (Holosmith, Power Chrono, etc). Benefit being it is range capable (currently only relevant in very few raiding encounters), but still with the downsides of no cleave, no break bar, and susceptible to being body blocked by adds and requiring the Deadeye to primarily be Immobile and use their endurance as part of their rotation, making them less likely to be able to dodge mechanics.

For fights where it is "absolutely ideal" for Deadeye to use Rifle above 50%, and Dagger/Dagger below 50%, with regular back stabs, the new bench for that would likely fall around a 38k with the above changes to Heartseeker, and the rotation would not involve the auto attack-CND shinanigans because using Heartseeker sub 50% would now be a good damage rotation over the auto, and would actually utilize the malice system for strong back stabs. Rifle would still be hitting better than dagger/dagger above 50%, but then Heart Seeker would kick in sub 50%. In fights where dagger is practical but rifle is not for above 50%, then it would probably bench closer to a 34k or so with a pure dagger/dagger rotation, which again, is very reasonable and not far from Holosmith.

The end result is you would have fights where "Deadeye Rifle + Dagger/Dagger" is "best in slot" for raw damage, while some fights "pure Rifle" would be "on par" with other builds, and yet other fights where Dagger/Dagger would be "on par or ever so slightly above" other builds that dont have to worry about positioning, and still would lose to Weaver on fights with a "large" hit box, and would certainly lose to Mirage on any fight that has a boss that cannot be easily back stabbed or that will not allow for stationary rifle game play.

This is what we call a "balanced environment" in which many builds have the opportunity to shine, rather than one being the defacto best pick, or in Deadeye's current state, "absolutely not viable compared to the alternatives for any end-game content." We should have a variety of awesome, fun, stylistic choices in what we bring to raids and fractals. Deadeye simply is not there yet, but there is hope.

The best TLDR is:

Deadeye currently is like Old Power Warrior/Spellbreaker. It is simply not pulling its weight as a damage dealer and not bringing anything "worth it" for being lower. The Power Warrior and Power Mesmer build reworks are absolutely wonderful examples of Anet hitting their balance changes riiiight on the money, making them valueable, useful, powerful, impactful, and giving them the ability to also bring some supportive aspects in exchange for some moderate loss. Power Chrono can still bring Moa, Warrior can still bring a Banner or provide EA.

More over, their thematic play style absolutely feels appropriate ... you feel like a phantasmal commander summoning rapidly and exploding clones and using your duelisty sword skills on power chrono, you feel like a barbarian rampaging through your foe with physical skills, axes, and a large greatsword. The "feel" is almost there for the new Deadeye, it just needs the tweeks with its numbers and fixing broken interactions with the stealth dodge role to really live up to the "immobile, rifle sniper that uses its dodge roll to get into position to land the perfect snipe without something messing up its sight lines, then goes in for the kill on its weaked foe with daggers and subterfuge."

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:ADPS nerf affects everybody. The ability for a class to perform well is directly tied to how well players who play it will enjoy the game. Nobody likes being impotent or kicked from groups. We all want to do what we want, but more importantly we wan't to do it well. Right now, the rifle is doing about as much damage as the Renegade shortbow.

My Renegade double shortbow build does more damage than the "best" rifle rotations, and thats with me making errors and NOT including the ally-based damage. And it has access to CC, Boon-ripping, emergency might for the group ... and its damage goes up on moving targets.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiment: We want there to be viable alternatives for many builds on many professions, and if a build is just numerically inferior in "absolutely sterile lab conditions" then it is simply holding yourself and your squad back by bringing it instead of something else. This is why I so dearly hope we can get some positive adjustments for a spec that, in NON-ideal circumstances, will performing even worse than its already non-viable damage levels.