We can't infer anything about the All.

Our primary worldbuilder was Jeff Grubb, a famous designer. He has made/contributed to several settings (Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Manual of the Planes, SpellJammer, etc,) and each have been influential on the creation of Tyria both indirectly as inspiration for Gw1, and directly under his position at ANET. Undoubtedly the fantasy astrophysics he is well known in these other settings is also part of the All. Hopefully we can match Tyrian lore with a Grubbian/math/science equivalent, to reveal intent. However he has written a lot and the design process he uses is very complicated, so this will take a long time.

For example. The Mists is filled with etheric matter. Grubb said in the Manual of the Planes the ethereal plane is filled with mists. So our Mists are probably a plane. And maybe so are the things we have that match this other universe he drew. https://goo.gl/images/UYMwJa But finding out what is and isn't a plane is just the beginning

Edit: the All is the work of several writers that has since been expanded by several writers. It is hopeless to try to reverse engineer it using the work of one.

The mystery will only be solved when the story allows.

could you repeat in human english

@Daniel Handler.4816Please repeat this entire post in proper English language. I can't tell what you're trying to tell us.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816Please repeat this entire post in proper English language. I can't tell what you're trying to tell us.

It is in proper English. I'll paraphrase.

This video game was made by real people. One was Jeff Grubb. Jeff made the setting. He has made many settings and many of those settings influenced this game. That's good for us. Because we know a lot about his earlier work, and he explained things about those settings that no one has explained about Tyria.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816Please repeat this entire post in proper English language. I can't tell what you're trying to tell us.

Sorry, the title confused me. Other than that, thank you for briefly describing the early work for GW2. Seems very interesting.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816Please repeat this entire post in proper English language. I can't tell what you're trying to tell us.

You're right, the title was bad. And the post was too wordy, even for proper English. I'll add back in more about the early work.

It is very interesting but also very confusing for me too. For instance https://imgur.com/8jPsrRW these are one of the crazy diagrams he uses. I still don't full understand his thought process.

Sooo...Can we use mistships to enter the spelljammer setting?For what it's worth we already have a misttraveler entering into another game, Rytlock, who does make an appearance in Master x Master by NC Soft, where he can meet Kromede from Aion, for instance. His biography even mentions a Dredgion*. So the Mists may form a rather soft barrier at the edge of the GW2 material plane, from which you can travel into other universes.

*For those unfamiliar with Aion, a Dredgion is an organic type of spaceship capable of traveling through the aether. Which is the Aion term for space/the mists.

@"Castigator.3470" said:Sooo...Can we use mistships to enter the spelljammer setting?For what it's worth we already have a misttraveler entering into another game, Rytlock, who does make an appearance in Master x Master by NC Soft, where he can meet Kromede from Aion, for instance. His biography even mentions a Dredgion*. So the Mists may form a rather soft barrier at the edge of the GW2 material plane, from which you can travel into other universes.

*For those unfamiliar with Aion, a Dredgion is an organic type of spaceship capable of traveling through the aether. Which is the Aion term for space/the mists.

IIRC the Aetherblade pirates fly their ships into the Mists. So theoretically yes, but the distance to get there would probably exceed anythings natural lifespan, including the ship's.

Also what is that game? It looks like a knockoff of HotS. I'm not sure how much of it is canon. But this paragraph is quite interesting:

Unfortunately, his last endeavor failed, and Sohothin was plunged into the Mists. Rytlock followed, knowing he must have the sword to complete the ritual. As he wandered the Mists, Rytlock found himself passing across realities.The portals and gateways one uses to directly cross Realms or the Rift are visually obvious. This passage sounds like Rytlock was accidentally phasing through the Mists while walking, the beginning of those techniques on the Revenant.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Also what is that game? It looks like a knockoff of HotS. I'm not sure how much of it is canon. But this paragraph is quite interesting:

It's basically NCSoft's (failed) attempt at a HotS styled game. None of it is canon the the GWverse.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Also what is that game? It looks like a knockoff of HotS. I'm not sure how much of it is canon. But this paragraph is quite interesting:

But on the theme it raises. Revenants preferred to work with Joko over phasing through the bars to escape.

Is that a matter of inexperience, like the Mesmers worried about shifting through a gap in the bars vs just pulling a Kasmeer?Or something like Necromancers needing to connect with a tether/corpse at the destination?Or neither and the only solution would have been to open the Rift?

Edit: Zeghai can teleport across the continent at will. So it sounds like inexperience.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:But on the theme it raises. Revenants preferred to work with Joko over phasing through the bars to escape.

They're not "working with Joko", they're channeling Joko's legacy - which is being imprisoned by Turai and later escaping - to escape from their own prison.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Or neither and the only solution would have been to open the Rift?Mortals cannot physically enter the Mists without an external, usually divine, aide. The asura are the only known beings to manage to circumvent this via their gates, but even that's rather dubious in lore.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Edit: Zeghai can teleport across the continent at will. So it sounds like inexperience.

By this argument, so does Sous-Chef Seimur Oxbone, who just pops in every city at dedicated times. Or the Pact Supply Agents who do the same except outside cities.

I wouldn't use mechanics to justify lore.

It's an interesting idea, and potentially has merit, but I think there's two important questions which need to be answered in order to pursue this line of thinking:

1) Are you sure Jeff Grubb was the sole/main writer for these settings and that he had the freedom to make decisions like how beings can travel between different planes without having to conform to other people's ideas?

I'd be wary of using anything from Forgotten Realms or any DnD manual as a source for an idea like this because even if that work was created by just one person they'll still be building on the rules and lore established in other people's work, some of it going all the way back to the first version of DnD and that will limit what they can do, even when creating a brand new setting. For example if we were to reverse your process we could say that because Warriors in GW2 have been explicitly stated to use magic that means Warriors/Fighters in other settings Jeff has worked on do as well, but in DnD it's explicitly stated that they don't. (They may be able to, especially through multi-classing, but their own abilities are not magical.)

If we can't be sure that the ideas we're looking at in other settings are Jeff's then we can't be sure he'd re-use them elsewhere. Maybe it was something he disliked or thought made no sense but it was already embedded in the world he was working on, or someone more senior (or simply more persuasive) liked it and so it got to stay. Same for GW2 - can we be sure Jeff was the one to decide things like what the Mists are and how we travel to and from it?

2) How consistent is Jeff Grubb's work?

Is he one of those writers who always uses fairly similar ideas with different names when creating new works, or does he like to explore different ways of doing things? Can we be sure that he didn't see working on GW2 as a way to do something new and different where magic and the universe don't work anything like they did in his previous creations?

I don't know the answer to either question, but I think it's important to answer them before getting too attached to the idea that the GW2 universe works just like another just because one senior designer worked on both.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:But on the theme it raises. Revenants preferred to work with Joko over phasing through the bars to escape.

They are letting an echo of things into their mind. And assure themselves it is only this once. That is desperate.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Or neither and the only solution would have been to open the Rift?Mortals cannot physically enter the Mists without an external, usually divine, aide. The asura are the only known beings to manage to circumvent this via their gates, but even that's rather dubious in lore.

Source? Odran did just fine. Necromancers move through death to escape the prison, and portal through Tyria as a Scourge.And Revenant are stepping, leaping, teleporting through something.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Edit: Zeghai can teleport across the continent at will. So it sounds like inexperience.

When Zeghai despawn it produces a visual effect. The Sous-Chef just vanishes.

@"Danikat.8537" said:It's an interesting idea, and potentially has merit, but I think there's two important questions which need to be answered in order to pursue this line of thinking:

1) Are you sure Jeff Grubb was the sole/main writer for these settings and that he had the freedom to make decisions like how beings can travel between different planes without having to conform to other people's ideas?

He was the sole author of the first edition of the Manual of the Planes and sole designer for Spelljammer. His other works were collaborative but he has confirmed them to be sources of inspiration for Gw2.

2) How consistent is Jeff Grubb's work?

All of his early works/contributions existed in the shared universe he created known as the Great Wheel. https://goo.gl/images/UYMwJaSpelljamer was an upgrade to this system and used the same terminology in a new configuration with additional information.I believe the All is a similar remixing of ideas.

Perhaps we can infer the pieces of this puzzle using the regular components in his design process. And then determine the actual structure using lore and map of the All.

The largest problem with your line of thinking is that Jeff wasn't even one of the main writers by the time The All came into play. He and Ree were major writers for Nightfall, Eye of the North, and core GW2, but after that they kind of fell silent, and it's hard for us to attribute anything in particular to them. And we don't know how early The All was designed (no hints of it until Season 1, and even than that was often just referring to the similar-but-different concept of Eternal Alchemy, The All could easily be a background retcon-not-retcon from original Season 1 ideas).

It's entirely plausible, likely IMO, that Jeff had little to no say in the concept of The All. It certainly doesn't seem to have been around during core GW2 design given the whole "two spheres of power" and relation to the stars holding slightly different connotation after The All's reveal.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:They are letting an echo of things into their mind. And assure themselves it is only this once. That is desperate.Based on the PC's conversations with the legends (namely Mallyx), the PC can indeed decide when to cease channeling the legend at will.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? Odran did just fine. Necromancers move through death to escape the prison, and portal through Tyria as a Scourge.And Revenant are stepping, leaping, teleporting through something.

Odran had to make countless sacrifices to tear open a permanent veil into the Mists. I should have mentioned "or hundreds of deaths" as an addendum to "divine help (avatar, god, or Spirit of the Wild)". Many hero challenge commune points are places where the world has gotten close to the Mists due to countless sacrifices, and the human PS story step Speaker of the Dead takes place in such a place too.

When the barrier between Tyria and the Mists weakens - due to a large number of passing between the two (be it by mortals or spirits it seems; therefore countless deaths or countless passages with the aide of divine/semi-divine beings) - then mortals can create a permanent tear between the two. But otherwise they cannot.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:When Zeghai despawn it produces a visual effect. The Sous-Chef just vanishes.

Most NPCs spawn and despawn with visual effects. Sometimes this is a puff of smoke. It's actually stranger when an NPC doesn't have an effect to their spawn/despawn.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The largest problem with your line of thinking is that Jeff wasn't even one of the main writers by the time The All came into play. He and Ree were major writers for Nightfall, Eye of the North, and core GW2, but after that they kind of fell silent, and it's hard for us to attribute anything in particular to them. And we don't know how early The All was designed (no hints of it until Season 1, and even than that was often just referring to the similar-but-different concept of Eternal Alchemy, The All could easily be a background retcon-not-retcon from original Season 1 ideas).

It's entirely plausible, likely IMO, that Jeff had little to no say in the concept of The All. It certainly doesn't seem to have been around during core GW2 design given the whole "two spheres of power" and relation to the stars holding slightly different connotation after The All's reveal.

The design came into play during Nightfall as the map for the Realm of Torment. It's hard for me to believe it was just a random drawing. And we know they discussed cosmology during the creation of Fractal content. I see no reason why the All wouldn't have been developed during that time. Setting comes before story.

However, even in the event Jeff is entirely unrelated, I still think there is information we can sort onto the map.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:They are letting an echo of things into their mind. And assure themselves it is only this once. That is desperate.Based on the PC's conversations with the legends (namely Mallyx), the PC can indeed decide when to cease channeling the legend at will.

According to the hidden arcana the personality of the echo can influence how you channel them, sometimes for the worse. The current lack of self harming skills on Mallx was a gameplay choice. The Revenant did not know what would happen when they tapped into the Legendary Prisoner. One can presume that if they could have phased, they would have.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? Odran did just fine. Necromancers move through death to escape the prison, and portal through Tyria as a Scourge.And Revenant are stepping, leaping, teleporting through something.

Then what is the Revenant leaping through if it is not the Mists?What is the Necromancer traversing, and portalling through?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:When Zeghai despawn it produces a visual effect. The Sous-Chef just vanishes.

His effect is unique to revenants.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The design came into play during Nightfall as the map for the Realm of Torment. It's hard for me to believe it was just a random drawing. And we know they discussed cosmology during the creation of Fractal content. I see no reason why the All wouldn't have been developed during that time. Setting comes before story.

However, even in the event Jeff is entirely unrelated, I still think there is information we can sort onto the map.

The map of the Realm of Torment is only tied retroactively at best. The map of the Realm of Torment is not as similar to the map of The All as many take it to be, but there's a pretty obvious reason why they would hold some similarities - for the same reason there's some similarities with Lord Odran's map of The Mists, or this little design seen on the background of various Nightfall stuff. Just as the similarity in this entirely different depiction of The All.

In short, they're all maps of something existing within The Mists. And that is why they're similar.

That's how Anet - since the days of Prophecies (two+ years before Jeff Grubb got into the picture) - depicted the Mists in abstract maps. It's been expanded, since, yes, each building on the last but overly not directly related to. You're presuming that Jeff's works went untouched by anyone else in roughly 5 years. That's downright impossible for how Anet manages things.

And where was original Fractal content discussed cosmology? I don't recall any such.

And I do see why The All wouldn't exist back in Nightfall (or Prophecies): Because The All is intricately tied to the existence of the Elder Dragons, which didn't exist until the design of Eye of the North. And even then, we don't have a solid explanation of there having been six Elder Dragons planned out at the time (by the time of the 2007 PCGamer magazine announcing GW2, they had five planned out for sure, but even that was pretty generic stuff - no second domains, no indication of ties to the world). You say setting comes before story, this is true, but in a game where story is continuously ongoing for years, so is the setting continuously adapting to new ideas and concepts to get added onto the plot (dragon unique weaknesses, double domains, being able to consume another dragons' domain and gain powers from such, are all very obviously thought up post-core GW2, and the last may even be post-HoT for all the indication we see throughout the prior storylines of it).

But honestly, I think the fact that The All can be depicted in multiple abstract "maps" goes to show that it's an in-universe artistic style or reinterpretation rather than pure factual depiction.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The Revenant did not know what would happen when they tapped into the Legendary Prisoner. One can presume that if they could have phased, they would have.

Well, we kind of know they can phase...

Axe 4. Sword 3. For starters.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then what is the Revenant leaping through if it is not the Mists?What is the Necromancer traversing, and portalling through?

What are thieves traversing? Mesmers? Elementalists?

How about simply air and the world? That's all they're traversing "through". We don't need to pop into another dimension in order to instantaneously teleport.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:His effect is unique to revenants.

Because he himself is a revenant - or is close enough to one as to utilize the same magic. And the only other two revenant NPCs in the game do not spawn/despawn (on screen).

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The design came into play during Nightfall as the map for the Realm of Torment. It's hard for me to believe it was just a random drawing. And we know they discussed cosmology during the creation of Fractal content. I see no reason why the All wouldn't have been developed during that time. Setting comes before story.

However, even in the event Jeff is entirely unrelated, I still think there is information we can sort onto the map.

Source? And overly not direct related to...?

You're presuming that Jeff's works went untouched by anyone else in roughly 5 years. That's downright impossible for how Anet manages things.

I'm presuming his work has not been erased. And that regardless of his involvement we have more than enough lore to piece some things together.

And where was original Fractal content discussed cosmology? I don't recall any such.\That is redundant.

And I do see why The All wouldn't exist back in Nightfall (or Prophecies): Because The All is intricately tied to the existence of the Elder Dragons, which didn't exist until the design of Eye of the North. And even then, we don't have a solid explanation of there having been six Elder Dragons planned out at the time (by the time of the 2007 PCGamer magazine announcing GW2, they had five planned out for sure, but even that was pretty generic stuff - no second domains, no indication of ties to the world). You say setting comes before story, this is true, but in a game where story is continuously ongoing for years, so is the setting continuously adapting to new ideas and concepts to get added onto the plot (dragon unique weaknesses, double domains, being able to consume another dragons' domain and gain powers from such, are all very obviously thought up post-core GW2, and the last may even be post-HoT for all the indication we see throughout the prior storylines of it).

Character development is not setting.

But honestly, I think the fact that The All can be depicted in multiple abstract "maps" goes to show that it's an in-universe artistic style or reinterpretation rather than pure factual depiction.

All maps can be depicted in multiple abstract maps.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:The Revenant did not know what would happen when they tapped into the Legendary Prisoner. One can presume that if they could have phased, they would have.

We know they can phase. The question is why didn't they phase through the bars?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then what is the Revenant leaping through if it is not the Mists?What is the Necromancer traversing, and portalling through?

Shadows. Time&Space. Air.

How about simply air and the world? That's all they're traversing "through". We don't need to pop into another dimension in order to instantaneously teleport.

Then they would have employed that when trapped in a prison.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:His effect is unique to revenants.

That is not an explanation.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? And overly not direct related to...?

Source for which part?

And what I meant by "not directly related to" is that they share the same high concept, but there's no direct relation between the two. That the two hold similarities is just undoubtably just because they're both maps of things in The Mists.

Just like if you had a map of Mount Everest and a map of Olympus Mons on Mars made in the same design. Are the two directly related? No, they're of two different things entirely. They're just mapped out in the same style.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And where was original Fractal content discussed cosmology? I don't recall any such.\That is redundant.

No, it's not redundant. I do not recall any content in the Fractals about cosmology. So I'm asking you what such content it was.

Or do you mean the Fractals in of themselves is the cosmology discussion?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Character development is not setting.

It is when that internal development for how characters function in the world alters the setting of the storyline.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:All maps can be depicted in multiple abstract maps.

That's... rather my point. That two maps having similarities in design doesn't mean a relation of the two subjects being depicted.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We know they can phase. The question is why didn't they phase through the bars?

Mechanics, more than anything (all revenant phasing abilities requires a target and does not allow phasing through mechanical barriers), and a chance to show off how profession abilities interact with the world (since not all professions can teleport).

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then they would have employed that when trapped in a prison.

And who says they don't?

The Joko legend doesn't send players into the Mists, you know.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:That is not an explanation.Actually, it is. It just isn't one that fits your theorycrafting, so you don't like it and thus deny it. Not the first time you denounce something because it gives a credible, logical explanation of mechanics that hold no inference on lore.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? And overly not direct related to...?

You've referenced the previous map of the All. And now multiple abstract maps from prophecies.Do you have them?

And what I meant by "not directly related to" is that they share the same high concept, but there's no direct relation between the two. That the two hold similarities is just undoubtably just because they're both maps of things in The Mists.

Just like if you had a map of Mount Everest and a map of Olympus Mons on Mars made in the same design. Are the two directly related? No, they're of two different things entirely. They're just mapped out in the same style.

Those maps would undoubtedly look different. The same style does not mean the same shapes. Especially in cartography.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

And where was original Fractal content discussed cosmology? I don't recall any such.\That is redundant.

A part, not the part.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Character development is not setting.

I don't see why the All that allows Syvlari would become substantially different pre PoF

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:All maps can be depicted in multiple abstract maps.

You misunderstand. The potential for remixing art is quite high. That does not mean two separate pieces redone in the same style are going to visually similar.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We know they can phase. The question is why didn't they phase through the bars?

There were targets. The guards were outside passed out, at least one within reach.You are correct, it could have just been a design decision.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Then they would have employed that when trapped in a prison.

What does that have to do within anything? It doesn't matter what the Legendary Prisoner does, it's that they took the risks to use it.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:That is not an explanation.Actually, it is. It just isn't one that fits your theorycrafting, so you don't like it and thus deny it. Not the first time you denounce something because it gives a credible, logical explanation of mechanics that hold no inference on lore.

You insist mortals can't enter the Mists without external aid with no evidence. Then say his animation is unique just because others of his class don't despawn. It could be, but you haven't established a reason why it should. He is here.

There is nothing to gain or lose as far as theorycrafting is concerned by Revenant being able to somehow enter the Mists at will.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? And overly not direct related to...?

Wha... You referenced it in your original attempt at this discussion! That "eye in a sun in the middle" map is from Prophecies! The one you didn't that I talked about, I did link to.

But for sake of reference, all "Mists maps" together, including all renditions of the same map:

Odran's map of The Mists, used in Prophecies manual/site/wallpaper backgroundsAlternate, darker, version of Odran's map of The Mists, similarly used in Prophecies stuffUnknown Mists map from Nightfall manual/site/wallpaper backgrounds(Note: These three are not on the GW1Wiki, for some reason, and since I'm technically permabanned from it for stupid reasons related to GW2W from years ago, I cannot upload them there either, so I put them on up on imgur.)Map of the Realm of TormentThe All from The Machine (annoyingly, wiki has no image of this vision, but it does have a gif)Odran's map of The Mists, as modified by the PrioryMap of The All as made by the PrioryThe All from The Way Forward

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Those maps would undoubtedly look different. The same style does not mean the same shapes. Especially in cartography.

Okay, let's try this again. What is the difference between this map and this map? I am saying that the Priory's map of The All and the world map of RoT are akin to these two maps. Subjects differ, style doesn't.

Now, what is the difference between this map and this map? This would be akin to the difference between the two different maps of The All we see.

I hope that gets my point and interpretation of the maps across. Their similarities lie in similar styles as abstract maps trying to cartograph things that exist in The Mists, a realm of reality which touches all times and all places at once.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:A part, not the part.

There was no "part" ever commented on. Your reply makes no sense.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I don't see why the All that allows Syvlari would become substantially different pre PoF

-blinks- What?

That holds no relation to the world setting and nature of The Mists differing between the timespan of Nightfall-core GW2 and Season 2-Path of Fire.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You misunderstand. The potential for remixing art is quite high. That does not mean two separate pieces redone in the same style are going to visually similar.

Actually, it rather does, when the subject is so abstract as to be merely a series of circles and squares within circles and squares that get intersected or conjoined by lines.

The overarching shape of the RoT map and the Priory All map is the same - six generically spherical shapes placed around a large central one that houses a diamond. But when you go beyond that there's a lot of differences. For example, the Realm of Torment's "six outer circles" are a "circle within a circle" on the tops and bottoms, but the central ones have that plus two larger circles that go off of the map, meanwhile The All has three circles-within-circles for the top two and bottom two, and the center is that but with three circles connected via lines to the two-in-one circle. Further, the entirety of The All is enwrapped within a circle, while the Realm of Torment is not.

Or how there's only two circles within the giant central one with the diamond in the RoT, while there's 16 for The All.

Similar design, that design being "six circles connected to a central larger circle that houses a diamond within with said six circles being at the 0, 45, 135, 180, 225, and 315 degrees" and "depicted using circles, squares, and lines". But past that? No similarity.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:There were targets. The guards were outside passed out, at least one within reach.You are correct, it could have just been a design decision.

Mechanically speaking, no there were no targets (due to obstruction). Plus, the weapons were taken away anyways.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:What does that have to do within anything? It doesn't matter what the Legendary Prisoner does, it's that they took the risks to use it.

Except there is no risk to using it...

And the relevance was that you were talking about how revenants phase into the Mists to teleport! Something which is COMPLETELY unfounded.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You insist mortals can't enter the Mists without external aid with no evidence. Then say his animation is unique just because others of his class don't despawn. It could be, but you haven't established a reason why it should. He is here.

There is nothing to gain or lose as far as theorycrafting is concerned by Revenant being able to somehow enter the Mists at will.

No aid? How about the fact it is never done outside of massive amounts of death weakening the barrier between Tyria and the Mists (something repeatedly stated, I might add, so there is evidence there). When the only beings known to be able to access the Mists, outside of anomalies like the Fractals asura gate, is through a specific method, and only that method, for the course of millennias, then that is evidence.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Source? And overly not direct related to...?

Actually you just said of IIRC the previous map had no stars. You didn't link to anything. But thank you for the additional image that were not on the wiki.

But for sake of reference, all "Mists maps" together, including all renditions of the same map:

Odran's map of The Mists, used in Prophecies manual/site/wallpaper backgroundsAlternate, darker, version of Odran's map of The Mists, similarly used in Prophecies stuffUnknown Mists map from Nightfall manual/site/wallpaper backgrounds(Note: These three are not on the GW1Wiki, for some reason, and since I'm technically permabanned from it for stupid reasons related to GW2W from years ago, I cannot upload them there either, so I put them on up on imgur.)Map of the Realm of TormentThe All from The Machine (annoyingly, wiki has no image of this vision, but it does have a gif)Odran's map of The Mists, as modified by the PrioryMap of The All as made by the PrioryThe All from The Way Forward

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Those maps would undoubtedly look different. The same style does not mean the same shapes. Especially in cartography.

Those maps look different, the same style had not produced the same shapes.

Now, what is the difference between this map and this map? This would be akin to the difference between the two different maps of The All we see.

They have different styles but retain a strong visual resemblance, and both could be used to chart the Earth.

I hope that gets my point and interpretation of the maps across. Their similarities lie in similar styles as abstract maps trying to cartograph things that exist in The Mists, a realm of reality which touches all times and all places at once.

The Mists is not the realm of anything but infinite possibilities. It touches all of the worlds within it but only links everything indirectly through the Rift.

It's possible the different maps of the Mists are different locations in space. Though I still belive they would mark the center in some way, especially Odran. But as far as the All, finding several distinct yet visually similar subjects in all of infinity would be miraculous. It is much more likely they would be completely dissimilar.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:A part, not the part.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I don't see why the All that allows Syvlari would become substantially different pre PoF

You hold that the vision for the Mists and Dragons has substantially changed as story demanded.I don't see why Grubb and crew wouldn't have made the All during the time they were also planning a race of sentient dragon minions, various mist shenanigans, etc.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You misunderstand. The potential for remixing art is quite high. That does not mean two separate pieces redone in the same style are going to visually similar.

We don't know how the Realm of Torment is enwrapped, it clearly zoomed in and several arcs go nowhere.I also don't expect it to be identical to the All just to denote it's place. A map of England should fit with a map of Europe.

Moreover counting the number of circles is quite pointless when the vision made it quite clear some are parts ares spheres, rings, or torus.

These maps/visions have a torus, globe, or both, at the center. And it is encircled by rings. The elaborations of the Priory are absent/inanimate in the vision. And Ogden chastises the Asura for seeing less in trying to define things.

There is no reason why these couldn't be contemplations on all or part of the same structure. The Realm of Torment reflects the darker aspects of the Tyria, and can make echoes and receive demons. It's could be the outer most ring.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:There were targets. The guards were outside passed out, at least one within reach.You are correct, it could have just been a design decision.

Obstructed pathing, not sight. Also none of the core spellcasters needed weapons and Shiro can phase backwards without a target.

They used Joko because it was cool.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:What does that have to do within anything? It doesn't matter what the Legendary Prisoner does, it's that they took the risks to use it.

Once again. Hidden Arcana made it quite clear the personality of a Legend can influence how its channeled and enact a toll on the body.

And the relevance was that you were talking about how revenants phase into the Mists to teleport! Something which is COMPLETELY unfounded.

The skills literally reverence stepping through the Mists, etc.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:You insist mortals can't enter the Mists without external aid with no evidence. Then say his animation is unique just because others of his class don't despawn. It could be, but you haven't established a reason why it should. He is here.

There is nothing to gain or lose as far as theorycrafting is concerned by Revenant being able to somehow enter the Mists at will.

What has never been done before is irrelevant to a new profession that can manipulate the Mists themselves. And the sudden appearance of a Revenant from an unknown race.

@Scott McGough.6897 said:

Thank you for illuminating the Anet creative process at that time. I completely agree people deserve credit for their work, but I didn't realize the setting would undergo that much collaboration/alteration.

But in terms squelching theorycrafting: magic has not been well defined in the game, is there any point to guessing? Are the rules unlikely to change past their current iteration?

And people tend to forget that GW's setting and story is often purposely vague to leave room for players to have fun with speculation and fan-made stories, and to keep more open possibilities for the future.

The art itself isn't realistic on purpose. These painterly aesthetics not only to keep the environments fresh after years pass without having to constantly overhaul graphics, they also help presenting the story of the game as a storybook, not a historical documentary.

And so, as a storybook, there will always be things that may not be exactly the same every time the tale is told, and things that may have been passed not exactly as they were, and maybe a bit embellished sometimes.

I like to use changes and similarities between certain elements in GW and GW2 as an example of that.

Take GW's Nightmares and GW2's skelk.They look quite similar, too much for a mere coincidence. If I had to guess, the reason these two look so similar is probably something like someone deciding against having nightmares all over the shiverpeaks after someone had already started with the models, and the model being reworked into the salamander-like skelk we have now instead just going to waste.Of course they are not the same creature and they look similar because a a change in art styles and models. But not taking advantage of a perfect explanation for these coincidences to make the story more natural would be a waste.There's something way better than can be done here. Something that happens so often that incorporating it into the lore makes it more natural: historical inaccuracy.Tales from 250 years ago being wrong or not properly transmitted, resulting in 'folk tales' and inaccurate descriptions and identifications of creatures.In the case of the nightmare/skelk coincidence, it can be seen as many of GW1's nightmare's scattered all over not begin actually nightmares, but shadow skelk. People could not see through their stealth, and tales about such creatures would describe them with something like "Coming from the shadows, dark as a night without stars, walking on all fours yet still vaguely humanoid. Glowing yellow eyes and yellow spots scattered through them was all you could properly see in the darkness".

In other words, from GW2's perspective, the whole of GW1 is 'tales of the past', picture books written by people who couln't do as much research as the priory or the asura, who didn't know as much as we know now. They thought all these skelk where shadow demons, when many were just skelk using the shadows to hide and attack unsuspecting travelers, scaring survivors into thinking they were attacked by "shadow demons".

Not everyone may see this the way I do, but luckily for me, the setting leaves room enough for this to be plausible. It doesn't really matter whether this really happened like this or not, without anything specifically against it, nothing can stop me or anyone else from thinking that's the explanation for the coincidence.

And that's the beauty of an open and vague setting. All we think we know could be wrong, and everything we know can be questioned, so the future is always full of possibilities.