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Eater of Souls fight is too difficult.

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  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all that praise given away with no effort.

    And all at the same time, the attraction for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

    GW1 was also an MMO (Okay, CORPG whatever) and wasn't filled with constant requests for nerfing everything (while having some hardcore story instances). This game being an mmo doesn't mean it has to be filled with quests that requires a single key to finish, especially not in its second extension. Not everyone could beat Shiro, oh well, then what? Let's dumb it down and punish everyone who beat it and enjoyed it this way?

    You can solo -some- hero points. Most in PoF that's true, but not in HoT. This is just another example that shows the obvious imbalance between easy content and challenge content.

    If people want to get something nerfed as soon as they don't get it first try, I have no problem telling them to try harder. Most games outside of AAA modern kitten (so Indie excluded) don't let you beat a game to the very end without at least a retry or two. That's perfectly normal.
    No side has more legitimacy than the other. But the imbalance in the case of PoF is obvious. There's a ton of casual content, but there's nothing worth of Challenge in PoF, no sign of raids (although I'm sure they're coming) dungeons were abandoned, no CM for story...
    Well yeah. pretty normal people complain here.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

    GW1 was also an MMO (Okay, CORPG whatever) and wasn't filled with constant requests for nerfing everything (while having some hardcore story instances). This game being an mmo doesn't mean it has to be filled with quests that requires a single key to finish, especially not in its second extension. Not everyone could beat Shiro, oh well, then what? Let's kitten it down and punish everyone who beat it and enjoyed it this way?

    You can solo -some- hero points. Most in PoF that's true, but not in HoT. This is just another example that shows the obvious imbalance between easy content and challenge content.

    If people want to get something nerfed as soon as they don't get it first try, I have no problem telling them to try harder. Most games outside of AAA modern kitten (so Indie excluded) don't let you beat a game to the very end without at least a retry or two. That's perfectly normal.
    No side has more legitimacy than the other. But the imbalance in the case of PoF is obvious. There's a ton of casual content, but there's nothing worth of Challenge in PoF, no sign of raids (although I'm sure they're coming) dungeons were abandoned, no CM for story...
    Well yeah. pretty normal people complain here.

    GW1 was a totally different game, and if it was that much better, WHY DIDNT YOU STAY THERE???
    GW2 was clearly made for a diffrent audience, and a much bigger scale
    do the math: 300.000 copies x 25 $ = 7,5 mio $
    i have been in a game with that kind of numbers before..and it was owned by the same company , as this one is
    guess what happened to that game?
    they closed it down to make this

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a book.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a b> @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a book.

    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    I'm glad they relaxed the CC window. It makes the CC mechanic more reliable for a broad spectrum of the player base. Having it too hard just meant people use no CC workarounds to complete the boss, and I feel that detracts from the game's mechanics. I think everyone should have a hard or soft CC skill equipped, but not all CC skills are instant cast so the defiance bar changes makes a broader set of CC viable in this fight.

    As for making the defiance bar mechanic unnecessary by decreasing the life steal? I'm not sure if people here were even asking for that, but that is what Anet did :confused: Anet nerfed it in the full sense, but maybe they have more data on players and where scared enough to nerf it outright instead of slowly try to adjust it.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

    GW1 was also an MMO (Okay, CORPG whatever) and wasn't filled with constant requests for nerfing everything (while having some hardcore story instances). This game being an mmo doesn't mean it has to be filled with quests that requires a single key to finish, especially not in its second extension. Not everyone could beat Shiro, oh well, then what? Let's kitten it down and punish everyone who beat it and enjoyed it this way?

    You can solo -some- hero points. Most in PoF that's true, but not in HoT. This is just another example that shows the obvious imbalance between easy content and challenge content.

    If people want to get something nerfed as soon as they don't get it first try, I have no problem telling them to try harder. Most games outside of AAA modern kitten (so Indie excluded) don't let you beat a game to the very end without at least a retry or two. That's perfectly normal.
    No side has more legitimacy than the other. But the imbalance in the case of PoF is obvious. There's a ton of casual content, but there's nothing worth of Challenge in PoF, no sign of raids (although I'm sure they're coming) dungeons were abandoned, no CM for story...
    Well yeah. pretty normal people complain here.

    GW1 was a totally different game, and if it was that much better, WHY DIDNT YOU STAY THERE???
    GW2 was clearly made for a diffrent audience, and a much bigger scale
    do the math: 300.000 copies x 25 $ = 7,5 mio $
    i have been in a game with that kind of numbers before..and it was owned by the same company , as this one is
    guess what happened to that game?
    they closed it down to make this

    Can we stop now with the non-argument "you have nothing to do here" whenever someone doesn't agree?

    Why leaving an old game after the sequel was released and most of its players moved to the new game... Hmm... Should I state the obvious?
    Because I actually like GW2, enough to be a complete whale for its developers. Does it mean I'm not allowed to criticize anything?
    And why exactly can't it be compared to GW1? GW2 is a sequel to GW1. GW2 was sold with dungeons, supposedly implying end game challenging content, and holding the same name that SUPPOSEDLY meant vet players were welcome and their tastes would be respected (and yes GW1 was hard). Since the past year, Anet has shown a clear interest at making fights more interesting, more diversified and less dumb, and has brought back lots of GW1 lore.
    So okay, there's a different audience, but it's not incompatible with the former's game audience and the most loyal players are also important in keeping the game alive.

    Also how having seen another game failing has anything to do with the topic? Did you come to the conclusion that because a game didn't work, it was necessarily too hard? These shortcuts don't prove a theory.

    It's not like I was alone to criticize these decisions to casualize games. I'm not the creator of this thread, nor the one before that. There's a LOT of people -at least as much as people ok with nerfing here- agreeing that players should LEARN a game instead of blaming it and asking for nerf. It seems like common sense for most players, but apparently not from some people in that MMO audience you're talking about.

    I'm sorry - again - but I consider that dumbing down a game for the "most amateurish" part of the population is hurting it in the long term. Having a portion of the story easy in the core game is okay, it let players actually learn the game, but the argument just doesn't hold so late within the story and players who have been supporting the game for so long and like intelligent fights have the right to get some content for them too.
    More tutorials? Okay ! Difficulty modes? Why not! BUT Plain nerfing a fight for the casuals who most likely will never do it again is not gonna help the game in the long term and it's a slap in the face for some players too (and their voices also count). What If I wanted to replay it? What If I want to fight Caudecus and what if I want to feel GOOD for actually beating something?

    I am in a guild of casual and even though some people had issues, everyone who tried went through eventually. Unlike here, they know that a game is supposed to be a game and not a movie.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

    Not "as much as possible" but at least SOME content. There is almost NO challenging content in PoF, and you guys are defending REMOVING more.

  • battledrone.8315battledrone.8315 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

    GW1 was also an MMO (Okay, CORPG whatever) and wasn't filled with constant requests for nerfing everything (while having some hardcore story instances). This game being an mmo doesn't mean it has to be filled with quests that requires a single key to finish, especially not in its second extension. Not everyone could beat Shiro, oh well, then what? Let's kitten it down and punish everyone who beat it and enjoyed it this way?

    You can solo -some- hero points. Most in PoF that's true, but not in HoT. This is just another example that shows the obvious imbalance between easy content and challenge content.

    If people want to get something nerfed as soon as they don't get it first try, I have no problem telling them to try harder. Most games outside of AAA modern kitten (so Indie excluded) don't let you beat a game to the very end without at least a retry or two. That's perfectly normal.
    No side has more legitimacy than the other. But the imbalance in the case of PoF is obvious. There's a ton of casual content, but there's nothing worth of Challenge in PoF, no sign of raids (although I'm sure they're coming) dungeons were abandoned, no CM for story...
    Well yeah. pretty normal people complain here.

    GW1 was a totally different game, and if it was that much better, WHY DIDNT YOU STAY THERE???
    GW2 was clearly made for a diffrent audience, and a much bigger scale
    do the math: 300.000 copies x 25 $ = 7,5 mio $
    i have been in a game with that kind of numbers before..and it was owned by the same company , as this one is
    guess what happened to that game?
    they closed it down to make this

    Can we stop now with the non-argument "you have nothing to do here" whenever someone doesn't agree?

    Why leaving an old game after the sequel was released and most of its players moved to the new game... Hmm... Should I state the obvious?
    Because I actually like GW2, enough to be a complete whale for its developers. Does it mean I'm not allowed to criticize anything?
    And why exactly can't it be compared to GW1? GW2 is a sequel to GW1. GW2 was sold with dungeons, supposedly implying end game challenging content, and holding the same name that SUPPOSEDLY meant vet players were welcome and their tastes would be respected (and yes GW1 was hard). Since the past year, Anet has shown a clear interest at making fights more interesting, more diversified and less kitten, and has brought back lots of GW1 lore.
    So okay, there's a different audience, but it's not incompatible with the former's game audience and the most loyal players are also important in keeping the game alive.

    Also how having seen another game failing has anything to do with the topic? Did you come to the conclusion that because a game didn't work, it was necessarily too hard? These shortcuts don't prove a theory.

    It's not like I was alone to criticize these decisions to casualize games. I'm not the creator of this thread, nor the one before that. There's a LOT of people -at least as much as people ok with nerfing here- agreeing that players should LEARN a game instead of blaming it and asking for nerf. It seems like common sense for most players, but apparently not from some people in that MMO audience you're talking about.

    I'm sorry - again - but I consider that dumbing down a game for the "most amateurish" part of the population is hurting it in the long term. Having a portion of the story easy in the core game is okay, it let players actually learn the game, but the argument just doesn't hold so late within the story and players who have been supporting the game for so long and like intelligent fights have the right to get some content for them too.
    More tutorials? Okay ! Difficulty modes? Why not! BUT Plain nerfing a fight for the casuals who most likely will never do it again is not gonna help the game in the long term and it's a slap in the face for some players too (and their voices also count). What If I wanted to replay it? What If I want to fight Caudecus and what if I want to feel GOOD for actually beating something?

    I am in a guild of casual and even though some people had issues, everyone who tried went through eventually. Unlike here, they know that a game is supposed to be a game and not a movie.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

    Not "as much as possible" but at least SOME content. There is almost NO challenging content in PoF, and you guys are defending REMOVING more.

    and im telling you that mixing the content like this is a bad idea
    if they had kept it separate, you could have much harder content
    and i could do my casual stuff, and we could both be happy in the same game
    hell i financed a good portion of WoWs raids , without ever seeing one
    i didnt mind, because blizzard always gave some content for casuals too
    have you seen how WoW is doing, after they stopped doing that?
    they already have the content, they just need to open it for more people
    it shouldnt be hard to do something with the scaling mechanism and add a difficulty setting
    yes..a difficulty slider, that can go UP as well

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a b> @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a book.

    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

    The devs don't get fired if you cannot progress. PoF story is not "leveling content." The Eater of Souls is a boss halfway through the second expansion balancing it for people incapable of interupting or dodging does a disservice to the community (if you haven't grasped breakbars and dodging by now you have no right to kill Balthazar).

    You have failed to adapt or learn, and the game is well within its rights to reject your access to future story until you improve (this is what separates a game from a movie).

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a b> @Coulter.2315 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    It is not a story, it is a story mission in a GAME. You are required by the game to show competence at playing and understanding the mechanics to progress, if you want a story without this you can go to the cinema or read a book.

    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    Believe me I tried defending this, but the main argument of these people is that they shouldn't ever have to change a build, and basically, the game should have options for all kinds of play, down to the very "Telltale" level of content (which is close to that now).
    Necro strats were given (don't use minions, duh?), as well as strats for all other classes. But no matter the help, it's always too hard.
    "Not everyone like raid difficulty". Yes, certainly. But to the point of not knowing what they're talking about and comparing everything to raids as soon as there's one layer of difficulty...

    Games today aren't about playing anymore, they're barely interactive movies, no more joy for beating a game since they have to always be easier to finish them as fast as possible and move on to the next thing. Make sure to give them achievements at every step of their journey, remind them that they're awesome, that their character defeated the most powerful foes of this fantasy world, all of that praise given away with no effort. Here's a beautiful example of our consumerist society.

    And all at the same time, the attractive for repeatable, farmed content is growing. Gate items behind golds, behind farms, rather than challenge. Make it actually be like a job where all you always do is repeating the same tasks, since it's easy anyway and keep people online.

    This isn't a critic towards Anet. I know they've been trying to propose more content that requires half a brain for the story and that would actually teach the mass to play better, effectively leading to more interesting meta and content down the road. However the submission to this diktat of the "always easier" and the doubtful confession about it "being too hard in the first place" makes me a bit worried for the future of the game.

    Why are "we" (by we I mean, players new and vets who actually like using the mechanics for what they've been made for) fighting so much about this specific instance?
    Because PoF was released with absolutely no other challenging content. While yes it's relaxing and enjoyable for most (me included), there's already a TON of that in vanilla, HoT and PoF games. There was still SOME hope in the story, some interesting concepts to fight, just like Caudecus in LS3.
    And all of that is wiped away, there is no longer a way to play that fight as originally intended, I will never experience Caudecus as it was intended. My character keeps being praised for fights that are ridiculously easy, that most NPC could go through without even dying.
    Not only was there no balance between casual content and veteran content in this extension, but because some people are refusing to try to learn their classes and change their build, we're left with literally nothing worthy of challenge now.

    Until next raids, hopefully, that people will complain about because there will be no middle ground left in PoF for them to train and get better.

    most mmos have made the mistake of such difficulty spikes in their levelling content, sometimes with dire consequences
    1: this is a mmo, more players is better for us all..so you want as many players to use the EXISTING content, as possible
    2:in normal mmos i could just outlevel the content and return..they turned that off
    3:i can solo a 10 point champ challenge, but i cant be allowed to progress the story? makes total sense....not
    this is way out of proportions , and now they have the numbers to show for it

    GW1 was also an MMO (Okay, CORPG whatever) and wasn't filled with constant requests for nerfing everything (while having some hardcore story instances). This game being an mmo doesn't mean it has to be filled with quests that requires a single key to finish, especially not in its second extension. Not everyone could beat Shiro, oh well, then what? Let's kitten it down and punish everyone who beat it and enjoyed it this way?

    You can solo -some- hero points. Most in PoF that's true, but not in HoT. This is just another example that shows the obvious imbalance between easy content and challenge content.

    If people want to get something nerfed as soon as they don't get it first try, I have no problem telling them to try harder. Most games outside of AAA modern kitten (so Indie excluded) don't let you beat a game to the very end without at least a retry or two. That's perfectly normal.
    No side has more legitimacy than the other. But the imbalance in the case of PoF is obvious. There's a ton of casual content, but there's nothing worth of Challenge in PoF, no sign of raids (although I'm sure they're coming) dungeons were abandoned, no CM for story...
    Well yeah. pretty normal people complain here.

    GW1 was a totally different game, and if it was that much better, WHY DIDNT YOU STAY THERE???
    GW2 was clearly made for a diffrent audience, and a much bigger scale
    do the math: 300.000 copies x 25 $ = 7,5 mio $
    i have been in a game with that kind of numbers before..and it was owned by the same company , as this one is
    guess what happened to that game?
    they closed it down to make this

    Can we stop now with the non-argument "you have nothing to do here" whenever someone doesn't agree?

    Why leaving an old game after the sequel was released and most of its players moved to the new game... Hmm... Should I state the obvious?
    Because I actually like GW2, enough to be a complete whale for its developers. Does it mean I'm not allowed to criticize anything?
    And why exactly can't it be compared to GW1? GW2 is a sequel to GW1. GW2 was sold with dungeons, supposedly implying end game challenging content, and holding the same name that SUPPOSEDLY meant vet players were welcome and their tastes would be respected (and yes GW1 was hard). Since the past year, Anet has shown a clear interest at making fights more interesting, more diversified and less kitten, and has brought back lots of GW1 lore.
    So okay, there's a different audience, but it's not incompatible with the former's game audience and the most loyal players are also important in keeping the game alive.

    Also how having seen another game failing has anything to do with the topic? Did you come to the conclusion that because a game didn't work, it was necessarily too hard? These shortcuts don't prove a theory.

    It's not like I was alone to criticize these decisions to casualize games. I'm not the creator of this thread, nor the one before that. There's a LOT of people -at least as much as people ok with nerfing here- agreeing that players should LEARN a game instead of blaming it and asking for nerf. It seems like common sense for most players, but apparently not from some people in that MMO audience you're talking about.

    I'm sorry - again - but I consider that dumbing down a game for the "most amateurish" part of the population is hurting it in the long term. Having a portion of the story easy in the core game is okay, it let players actually learn the game, but the argument just doesn't hold so late within the story and players who have been supporting the game for so long and like intelligent fights have the right to get some content for them too.
    More tutorials? Okay ! Difficulty modes? Why not! BUT Plain nerfing a fight for the casuals who most likely will never do it again is not gonna help the game in the long term and it's a slap in the face for some players too (and their voices also count). What If I wanted to replay it? What If I want to fight Caudecus and what if I want to feel GOOD for actually beating something?

    I am in a guild of casual and even though some people had issues, everyone who tried went through eventually. Unlike here, they know that a game is supposed to be a game and not a movie.

    @battledrone.8315 said:
    come on, the difference between the normal content and story content is mind blowing
    i can go from almost faceroll to ragequit in a minute, that is very poor pacing
    i get, that you hardcores want as much content as possible
    but, putting it in the levelling content will hurt us all in the end
    me...i cant progress
    the devs..they will get fired
    you...you will literally have beat the game to death
    i guess we all can be happy with that solution, yes?

    Not "as much as possible" but at least SOME content. There is almost NO challenging content in PoF, and you guys are defending REMOVING more.

    and im telling you that mixing the content like this is a bad idea
    if they had kept it separate, you could have much harder content
    and i could do my casual stuff, and we could both be happy in the same game
    hell i financed a good portion of WoWs raids , without ever seeing one
    i didnt mind, because blizzard always gave some content for casuals too
    have you seen how WoW is doing, after they stopped doing that?
    they already have the content, they just need to open it for more people
    it shouldnt be hard to do something with the scaling mechanism and add a difficulty setting
    yes..a difficulty slider, that can go UP as well

    I am not against a difficulty setting. I am against pure removal of content in favor of some players that also negatively impacts others.
    Also, I don't think "middle ground" difficulty is asking for too much. When we do meta (typically KotJ... which WAS NERFED even though it's not story) we have to deal with this population of players who have no idea how anything work and who are only there to scale up an event. That's another reason why some form of teaching through story has to remain.

    For this fight, just adding a checkpoint could have been enough for people to fail, change their build or get a gold/exotic long range weapon, and come back, there was no need for baby carry this fight.

  • Donutdude.9582Donutdude.9582 Member ✭✭✭

    How very bizarre. I noticed in the patch notes that they tweaked the difficulty of this. I am not quite sure why because, a glass-Firebrand, I did not struggle with this fight at all. I will see how I get on with my more defensive yet condition-based Weaver but I doubt I shall have any issues now that they've nerfed it.

    Such a shame. Most of the Path of Fire story was easy. I enjoyed the slight difficulty during this step. Oh well!

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  • Healix.5819Healix.5819 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    That's another reason why some form of teaching through story has to remain.

    This boss wasn't teaching anyone. It was a very simple gimmick fight where if you had something like permanent cripple, you could casually facetank it without trying. If they actually wanted to teach people how to do the break bar or something, they would have made it last for ~5 seconds, then do a zone wide inhale that only siphoned 50% of your health and healed it to full. They only made it appear overpowered and impossible by making the break bar last 1 second, siphon deal ~5000 DPS, requiring double dodge to get out and having it sprint to you to make it appear as if you couldn't get away.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 12, 2017

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    @battledrone.8315 said:

    @Vyrulisse.1246 said:
    Well it's been nerfed. A real shame I think as such things only promote people not learning to play or learning mechanics. It's okay for story content to be challenging. Just because it's story mode doesn't mean you should faceroll everything on the first try. Some of the responses in this thread are truly disheartening to see.

    2 simple questions:
    what is the purpose of a STORY?
    how do you measure the success/failure of said story?
    drowning the story in annoying mechanics/mobs actually makes the story less effective, as it diverts attention from said story
    if i want story , i go to the media that were made for them..books , movies etc
    furthermore , the story is so far out, that the cheesiest star trek episode would blush

    Easy answer: if the boss fight is too easy then the story being the player character fighting his way back to become alive becomes irrelevant.

    You said it yourself, if you want story you are going out of your way to watch a movie or whatever. Here we are not watching a movie, we are playing a game with active combat and specific mechanics that are soooo easy to execute because every professions share the same core mechanics and utilities that are necessary to kill the death eater.

    Furthermore, I am wondering. If it is not in open world (HoT complains), nor in fractal (fractal observatory complains), nor in raids to some extent (easy mode requests), nor in personal story, at what point should a solo player get accustomed to simple mechanics to make fights more interesting than easy core gameplay ?

    you mentioned different ways to experience a story..not the purpose of it

    furthermore, easy is subjective..we are different persons with different skills and motivations

    AFAIK PoF only sold 200k copies, that shows the effects of this mentality
    i can do most of the open world stuff , but these stories are huge difficulty spikes and disrupting a smooth experience
    keep the hardcore stuff where it belongs
    im playing in tyria on my 6th year, and i havent completed a story chapter since zhaitan
    every effing story they go full horde mode
    just tried one of the older stories..my warrior and a npc against 30+ flame legions on a tiny map
    they just rush me and kill me
    try to dodge...out of instance
    GG anet

    To me, the purpose of a story is to experience it, to feel and really get behind the character you play. There is no way you can feel it and get behind your character if the fight is too easy. Reducing the health drain was overkill and was not needed, since they significantly made it easier to not have the death eater drain your life. I just can't agree with you battledrone.

  • Daffan.8924Daffan.8924 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2017

    Fight was dumb.

    Core Guardian you will lose every time basically.

    Switch 1 trait line to DH (For me I changed Zeal), use a bow and just spam 12345 while running around and pressing f2 occasionally. He will die in < 3 min with zero effort or skill required because you are ranged.

    Now, what is most annoying about this? NO BUILD TEMPLATES. So I had to sit there, click all these different buttons to get to DH and then change my utility bars. Then remember what I used to have, and click everything back how it was. PITA ... just really sloppy having to setup bars and stuff constantly. C'mon even WoW saves action bars and has build templates for 5+ years.

  • Taygus.4571Taygus.4571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They need to create a separate "instance", which takes the bosses out of the story..once you've beaten them and places then in..say an instanced arena of sorts.

    With an increase in difficulty...or even settings "original fight" and "hard".

    This would do two things. ..take away the repetitive side of the story when aiming for achievements and adds a harder fight separately for those who want it.
    Would also put all bosses in one place, which would be cool.

  • Zoid.2568Zoid.2568 Member ✭✭✭

    All of the fights in the story were easy. Balthazar fight should have been more difficult...

  • Ellisande.5218Ellisande.5218 Member ✭✭✭

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    The nerf is lame and unnecessary. A story about godlike enemies (be it balthasar or the elder dragons) can never be truly epic without difficult encounters. If they are easy you think "Why did not just any of the NPCs in the game world do this before me?"
    It is beyond me why Anet keeps wasting resources on story instances that make you nearly fall asleep (read: tab out of the game frequently).

    That doesn't work. See the player has no agency. So the player isn't allowed to choose how they approach the fight. If you want godlike enemies then you need to give your players the ability to form an army to take on this enemy with or to become a godlike being themself. We are denied both of those options. So the only reason why this fight is hard is because we aren't allowed to play our character. We are forced to play an idiot with no power who never tries to acquire power.

    Imagine this like a PnP game. Some players will just run up to the dragon and try to stick it with a sword. Some players will prepare for the fight ahead of time, studying and learning about their enemy, preparing, laying traps, hiring NPCs, filling up their spellbooks with utility spells, acquiring fire resistant armor, etc. Now imagine the DM in the game with the players who want to prepare just straight up says, "NOPE. Your characters do no preparation and run up to the dragon with their sword and try to stab it. The dragon kills you. You should have prepared."

  • Ellisande.5218Ellisande.5218 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daffan.8924 said:
    Fight was kitten.

    Core Guardian you will lose every time basically.

    Switch 1 trait line to DH (For me I changed Zeal), use a bow and just spam 12345 while running around and pressing f2 occasionally. He will die in < 3 min with zero effort or skill required because you are ranged.

    Now, what is most annoying about this? NO BUILD TEMPLATES. So I had to sit there, click all these different buttons to get to DH and then change my utility bars. Then remember what I used to have, and click everything back how it was. PITA ... just really sloppy having to setup bars and stuff constantly. C'mon even WoW saves action bars and has build templates for 5+ years.

    WoW also used to let you be an unkillable self healing tank before they nerfed Death Knights into the dirt in Cataclysm. That took all the fun out of the game for me. Being a Titan of Destruction is fun for me, being a peon is the antithesis of fun.

  • Here's the trick - use a Knock back, Stun, Knock down or other skill that will interrupt his 'jump'. Do that, he stun locks instead of trying to devour your soul. Stun lasts about 10 sec or so. Defeated him with a core build ranger no trouble once I figured that out.

    Wolf Moonstar
    Dragon Council, Third Seat: Jade Sea Haven (Jade) Ehmry Bay
    Zen Phantom

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    First of all, that's entirely not the case, just because you're good at something doesn't mean other people wouldn't have difficulties with it. Get out of the mindset that all players must play like you otherwise "they aren't trying". It is a toxic attitude and the entire gaming community at large needs to drop toxic attitudes such as this.

    Secondly, it has become apparent (through my own personal experience etc.) that depending on the game connection and the type of computer played on, The very speed of the game can vary, meaning what's 2 seconds to one player is one second to another player in certain instances. I've been presented a video of a pre-nerf fight, where the eater of souls leap breakbar lats 1.42 seconds. The experience I had was a breakbar that flashed for less than a second, with a leap animation that seemed to have been sped up unnaturally. So there's more elements than simply 'experience' at play here. I only have anecdote to go on at the moment, especially because I no longer have access to the circumstances that I first played the instance in, but there is something that's not making sense about how the same instance can have wildly varying speeds depending on computer spec, ping and i'm sure other aspects. Some sort of experiment is required here, and I believe experimentation beyond simply using a vpn is necessary.

    Not ready to file a bug report or anything of the like just yet, as I can't quite go back and forth across two continents to test this out, but it's something that I feel everyone should possibly be aware of, especially with regards to the eater of souls, as that has the most drama at the moment.

    EDIT: grammar.

    The toxic attitude/mindset would have been, if you had a Meter you would succesfully killed EOS in .08 secs. DPS is how everything is measured in game.

    Adjusting your gameplay is hardly a toxic mindset, it's an option that is available to you and I. If you are not willing to take advantage of switching your build as needed then other players shouldn't be penalized for successfully completing it.

    Many of have more than one toon and face rolling a pinata is hardly worth replaying. Replay value however is subjective.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    The toxic attitude/mindset would have been, if you had a Meter you would succesfully killed EOS in .08 secs. DPS is how everything is measured in game.

    Adjusting your gameplay is hardly a toxic mindset, it's an option that is available to you and I. If you are not willing to take advantage of switching your build as needed then other players shouldn't be penalized for successfully completing it.

    Many of have more than one toon and face rolling a pinata is hardly worth replaying. Replay value however is subjective.

    The toxic mindset that I had mentioned is thinking that simply because you had no problems with it, other people shouldn't, not that the toxic mindset is "people should change their builds". It's clearly what I said, but for whatever reason you twisted my words. Here's my exact quote:

    First of all, that's entirely not the case, just because you're good at something doesn't mean other people wouldn't have difficulties with it. Get out of the mindset that all players must play like you otherwise "they aren't trying". It is a toxic attitude and the entire gaming community at large needs to drop toxic attitudes such as this.

    Nothing at all about calling on people to change their build, because your post wasn't entirely about asking people to change builds.

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accomidate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    The highlighted part is the toxic attitude I was talking about. Even with a changed build, people can still have problems and it absolutely is toxic to dismiss those people out of hand, citing how "face rolly" it is to you. It's entirely toxic. The devs changing how long the breakbar lasts and having the eater of souls not snack on minions and pets is absolutely 100% the right move, lowering how much health was regained was not the right move. You also 'conveniently' missed the fact that the fight performed at different speeds, meaning that even if some people adjusted their build, had meta gear etc., the game could have bugged out making it much more difficult than the devs ever intended. As I said, I only have anecdote to go on at this point, my own personal experience of the eater of souls fight being exaggeratingly difficult vs someone else's recorded experience of a much more reasonably paced fight. I can't test this out as I have moved continents and changed computers, so I can't recreate the scenario as I first played it, but there is a huge difference between what I experienced and what I played with myself, pre-nerf.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    The toxic attitude/mindset would have been, if you had a Meter you would succesfully killed EOS in .08 secs. DPS is how everything is measured in game.

    Adjusting your gameplay is hardly a toxic mindset, it's an option that is available to you and I. If you are not willing to take advantage of switching your build as needed then other players shouldn't be penalized for successfully completing it.

    Many of have more than one toon and face rolling a pinata is hardly worth replaying. Replay value however is subjective.

    The toxic mindset that I had mentioned is thinking that simply because you had no problems with it, other people shouldn't, not that the toxic mindset is "people should change their builds". It's clearly what I said, but for whatever reason you twisted my words. Here's my exact quote:

    First of all, that's entirely not the case, just because you're good at something doesn't mean other people wouldn't have difficulties with it. Get out of the mindset that all players must play like you otherwise "they aren't trying". It is a toxic attitude and the entire gaming community at large needs to drop toxic attitudes such as this.

    Nothing at all about calling on people to change their build, because your post wasn't entirely about asking people to change builds.

    It's nothing more than a situational fight and you had to adjust your playstyle and this is far from being unfair. What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now. ANET didn't have to accommodate others when others should make their own accommodation.

    The game does not penelize or punish you for adjusting your build as needed.

    The highlighted part is the toxic attitude I was talking about. Even with a changed build, people can still have problems and it absolutely is toxic to dismiss those people out of hand, citing how "face rolly" it is to you. It's entirely toxic. The devs changing how long the breakbar lasts and having the eater of souls not snack on minions and pets is absolutely 100% the right move, lowering how much health was regained was not the right move. You also 'conveniently' missed the fact that the fight performed at different speeds, meaning that even if some people adjusted their build, had meta gear etc., the game could have bugged out making it much more difficult than the devs ever intended. As I said, I only have anecdote to go on at this point, my own personal experience of the eater of souls fight being exaggeratingly difficult vs someone else's recorded experience of a much more reasonably paced fight. I can't test this out as I have moved continents and changed computers, so I can't recreate the scenario as I first played it, but there is a huge difference between what I experienced and what I played with myself, pre-nerf.

    The term I used is ADJUST: modify, adopt, fine tune your playstyle, the manner of which you play. This includes and not limited to your movement, weapons, armor, runes, & traits.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    The term I used is ADJUST: modify, adopt, fine tune your playstyle, the manner of which you play. This includes and not limited to your movement, weapons, armor, runes, & traits.

    I addressed that. In the quote you have in your post.

    Here it is again:

    Even with a changed build, people can still have problems and it absolutely is toxic to dismiss those people out of hand, citing how "face rolly" it is to you. It's entirely toxic.

    Even if you used the term adjust, you still, in the end, said this:

    What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now.

    Which is absolutely toxic, because it entirely dismisses the notion that people could have difficulty even when adjusting their build.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • its 2 easy im complite this fight wisout going in downstate mod and wisout interface coze dooing screenshots....

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Does it ever occur to anyone that toxicity could also be this en > @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    The term I used is ADJUST: modify, adopt, fine tune your playstyle, the manner of which you play. This includes and not limited to your movement, weapons, armor, runes, & traits.

    I addressed that. In the quote you have in your post.

    Here it is again:

    Even with a changed build, people can still have problems and it absolutely is toxic to dismiss those people out of hand, citing how "face rolly" it is to you. It's entirely toxic.

    Even if you used the term adjust, you still, in the end, said this:

    What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now.

    Which is absolutely toxic, because it entirely dismisses the notion that people could have difficulty even when adjusting their build.

    What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?
    What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?
    What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

    What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

    What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).
    You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

    I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

    When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

    What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?

    Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them? I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again.

    What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

    I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put, some people don't read guides. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

    What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

    What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and still have trouble with the fight. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

    What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

    I don't get this argument, because the fact is most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

    You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

    No, my focus on toxicity is those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

    I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

    I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game, the game should teach the basics but it doesn't, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

    The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

    I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Late to the party here but I am missing how this guy was hard. The first time I attempted this fight was on a purely melee character and he got me with his life steal sucking move once. I recognized it, and dodged and ran away every time he did so after. Just dodge and run away, then when it's done go back into melee and continue wailing away.

    I know some people got a bug where it could not be dodged even if you got out of range, but that was a bug. Nerfing this fight wasn't needed imo, just fix the bug. Is it really so bad to expect players to be able to see and react to One simple mechanic? I dont know, maybe I'm more elitist than I know. I' consider myself about as casual as they come, never stepped foot into a raid or anything, but this whole discussion boggles my mind.

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

    When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

    What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?

    Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them? I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again.

    What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

    I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put, some people don't read guides. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

    What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

    What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and still have trouble with the fight. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

    What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

    I don't get this argument, because the fact is most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

    You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

    No, my focus on toxicity is those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

    I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

    I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game, the game should teach the basics but it doesn't, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

    The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

    I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

    Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.
    However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

    There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.
    However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

    There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

    This is a video game, where the rules can and should be adapted to allow for the most people to have fun. Having a boss fight that is too hard for a playerbase who were never taught the full mechanics of the game is completely unfair and it should be adapted to allow for everyone to have fun and beat it. At the same time, the devs should work on a solution to teach players how to play the game. The example about cooking, then, doesn't match, because while some will never be good at cooking, some were never given the chance to learn how to cook, so why should they be penalized for not having the opportunity to learn and then thrust into a situation where it's cook or die (especially in a video game, which is about fun)? Why should players be penalized because the game never taught them the mechanics? How does that make sense?

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

    When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?

    Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them? I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again.

    Citing examples read in this very thread to justify some comments that you're calling "toxic".
    I find people unwilling to learn toxic for the game. And these people exist in this very thread. Show me posts of people who genuinely struggled with this fight and didn't end up getting it after following guides. Maybe I missed some?

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

    I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put, some people don't read guides. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

    And that's their choice not to read guides. But if you're gonna complain on THIS VERY THREAD, a few days after the game comes out, get help on THIS VERY THREAD, and still complain ON THIS VERY THREAD and blame the game, this excuse doesn't hold and it's easy to assume a lack of willingness to L2P.
    At least try guides before complaining if you don't want to be called out for unwillingness to learn.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

    What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and still have trouble with the fight. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

    Struggling in a game during boss fights is absolutely normal and is not a game flaw. Blaming the game for offering challenge is the problem at hands, here.
    You want to make it a fight between elitists and casual/"bad" players while in fact it's a fight between casual/"bad" players and the game expectations. I happen to agree with the original vision of the game expectations (pre-tweet "here's why we're nerfing" excuse) but that doesn't make me toxic nor elitist.
    I prefer people who straight up say they want everything easy. At least they're honest.
    (Note I put "bad" in quotes because I am not trying to judge anyone negatively for that)

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

    I don't get this argument, because the fact is most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

    They can discuss about their difficulty and ask for help, but NOT ask for nerf because they haven't figured out a way yet. You will not see half of us in a thread that simply ask for help, because unlike what you said, we're not all toxic elitists spamming the l2p argument, we're just defending a certain notion of what a game is, the notion of fulfillment after beating a difficult fight and straight up asking for nerf goes against that.
    And the unwillingness to face challenge is causing more game issues that I mentioned.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

    No, my focus on toxicity is those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

    Telling them to learn mechanics has nothing to do with elitism. You're dedicated into making it seem that way but it's not.
    Learn to play is not toxic, it's basically telling you the game expects you to get to a certain level of skill before you can keep going. It's ridiculous to call that toxicism. Many games have difficulty checks like that and players just... accept it or stop playing.
    People don't like hearing that they don't have the required skill to achieve something. That is not a reason to become toxic yourself and assume that the game and the players alike are all mocking a lack of skill.
    In a healthy group, it is perfectly acceptable to tell your team mate when they under perform, this is not toxicism.

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:
    I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

    I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game, the game should teach the basics but it doesn't, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

    The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

    I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

    My focus is based on the early answers from this very thread, followed by way too many posts like yours that assume that most people were trying very hard and almost quitting after a week sweating over this boss, which I don't consider to be true, at least coming from the people who participating in this thread early on.

    I'd love to actually talk to them, instead of their representative, and try to understand exactly where they were still having issues even after following guides. Maybe Anet could take note as well and get better at explaining their game mechanics. But I'm not seeing any of that here. All I'm seeing is that stupid fight over elitism.
    Almost none of the posts I've seen actually show people who genuinely were trying to learn before blaming it on the game, and it's certainly not by saying "objectively unfairly" which is all but objective that you'll change my mind.

    Otherwise yes, offering better training story / sessions is infinitely better than straight up nerfing something. Infinitely better, we can at least agree that there's need for more training story.

  • I didn't find this fight at all difficult with my scourge, that is the only profession I've done it in though.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318

    Maybe I just haven't read enough of this thread. We're on the 9th page about this topic, so I'll just take you at your word that there are people on this thread who refuse to work with the guides provided to them.

    However, just because those people exist doesn't mean there aren't people who have done everything they could, including changing builds, and still can't beat the boss. At that point, it's not a learn to play issue, it's a game mechanics issue that needs to be resolved. By 'struggling with the boss', I mean unable to beat it. I also disagree that someone should take a week bashing their head against a wall until they come to the forums and ask for a nerf, you can pretty quickly figure if you're outmatched because of buildcraft or because the boss was overtuned, but that's pretty subjective and not everyone would have that ability to differentiate between the two.

    I've become entirely cynical surrounding anything in gaming that has to do with two sides debating difficulty, because nearly 100% of the time, toxic elitists don't care to listen to the complaints of those who have difficulties, including the ones who've learned all the mechanics and still have issues, going so far as to insult, degrade and tear apart anyone who plays on an easier difficulty than "instant death" and go to extremes to annihilate anyone who even whispers anything about difficulty levels. Those responses have completely dulled my ability to take a look at "learn to play" in any way other than extremely toxic. "Learn to play", in and of itself, is not something objectionable, it's a hint that there's more to explore and possibly something you may have missed, but the standard use throughout the industry as a whole has turned it into a phrase that's become the staple of the worst of the worst in the industry. So forgive my hardline response, this is genuinely the first time ever i've had someone relay nuance about true learn to play issues instead of the extremely toxic "i did it, why can't you?" bs that just permeates everything, real life and video games included. Not everyone has the same capabilities, but you at least expect players to try (and change their build) and would listen if players still had difficulties after reading guides, which is a large step above the toxic wastelands that have appeared through other communities i've been a part of.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    Having fights in the story which require the player to know how to approach a break bar means we have a more educated playerbase. Anyone crying about difficulty did not play the fight correctly (interupt him), if you learned the mechanic you would now be a better player (which is good for everyone as we might group with you later).

  • Tyger.1637Tyger.1637 Member ✭✭✭

    I found the intitial, pre-change, fight to be extremely tedious rather than difficult. I got into a good rhythm of chipping his health down and keeping my distance to avoid his super-cheaty AoE vampiric-health-restore as much as I could till one slip up got me at 0 range and he gobbled up to a full-heal. It drained my enthusiasm for the fight and I just died, restored to a checkpoint and then logged out for the night. The thought of trying again was just 'urgh' and it took any excitment I had left and flushed it away.

    Next night I decided to use more of the environment to setup a kind of Benny Hill style chase and it worked better than that; he got stuck on a piece of scenery and I just left longbow-dragonhunter 1 on auto till it whittled him down to 5% when he realised why I wasn't getting any nearer, dislodged himself and I unloaded a scepter-torch burst to take him out.

    Thing is; I don't recall any encounter with this vampiric heal PBAoE move anywhere else. Shockwaves, distance-leeching maybe but never a pull move that also drains health in greater amounts the closer you get. Compared to a point in the final fight and a technique from the LW3 shows up and I instantly knew what to do because it was already taught like a comeback move in a movie when an early moment turns out to be incredibly useful near the end of the story. It felt good like Chekov running down a corridor "I know this!" good.

    I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyger.1637 said:

    I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

    I killed it in one minute with my mesmer no problem.

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Haishao.6851 said:

    @Tyger.1637 said:

    I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

    I killed it in one minute with my mesmer no problem.

    I believe there is even a video somewhere too.

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.
    However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

    There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

    This is a video game, where the rules can and should be adapted to allow for the most people to have fun. Having a boss fight that is too hard for a playerbase who were never taught the full mechanics of the game is completely unfair and it should be adapted to allow for everyone to have fun and beat it. At the same time, the devs should work on a solution to teach players how to play the game. The example about cooking, then, doesn't match, because while some will never be good at cooking, some were never given the chance to learn how to cook, so why should they be penalized for not having the opportunity to learn and then thrust into a situation where it's cook or die (especially in a video game, which is about fun)? Why should players be penalized because the game never taught them the mechanics? How does that make sense?

    Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.
    You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.
    I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

    There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.
    Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

    Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyger.1637 said:

    I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

    I only play mesmer and he dies extremely easily. You interupt him and win, if you miss an interupt you have 4(!!!) buttons which remove your illusions.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:

    @Haishao.6851 said:

    @Tyger.1637 said:

    I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

    I killed it in one minute with my mesmer no problem.

    I believe there is even a video somewhere too.

    There is

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.
    You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.
    I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

    There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.
    Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

    Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

    How condescending.

    It's not like a recreational sport, because while there is interaction with other players, communication with those players is not essential for the core aspects of the game. Without the requirement of communication to play through the game, it's then unreasonable to assume that a player will pick up all the ins and outs of the game. With cooking, you can try it out on your own, you can eventually learn what works and what doesn't, but sometimes you'll just adapt to your own tastes and figure out how some bits work. That doesn't mean you'll turn out a professional chef, and the vast majority of people don't. Giving classes at least puts the expectation that everyone is on the same level. If they then decide not to use their skills as taught, then the onus is on them. However, picking up a random group of strangers, tossing them into the ironchef competition and expecting them all to cook like master chefs is exactly as dumb as it sounds. Having a tutorial to explain the game mechanics at least puts the onus on the players to learn about the game mechanics using the tools available within the game, most players don't really look for outside help unless they are really dedicated to the game, but players should also not be required to look outside of the game to be taught how to play, nor should it fall on the players shoulders to learn basic mechanics of the game by asking from others. The game itself should teach how to play, and it's a major failing of this game to expect players, old and new, to simply know everything about the game. Breakbars for example are something that still have no tutorial to truly teach what they are and how to break them or deal with them in the game.

    The game absolutely needs to make a tutorial in order to assume that everyone is on the same page. As it stands, various people don't understand various aspects of the game, another forum user didnt know how combos worked until last year, and they've been playing since vanilla. Combos. Let that sink in how terrible it is that there's no official tutorial that goes through the mechanics of the game in even the tiniest bit of depth.

    We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

    I am all for including break bar tutorials but it is ludicrous to ask a boss fight in the second expansion(!!) to not have a break bar mechanic until you get that tutorial. Keeping the entire production of content at nooby level for a 5 year old game is just insulting to everyone, it creates boring fights for veterans and makes newer players out to be idiots who cannot pick up new mechanics.

    Fights with mechanics improve player skill and also check to see if you should be allowed to progress, you didn't get to kill Ganon without completing the Water Temple and you shouldn't be allowed to kill Balthazar without understanding what a break bar is.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

    I'm only gonna comment on that since I doubt we will ever agree on the rest.
    But that, yes. Let's make a deal, once (if) Anet ever make once that summarize all the core game mechanics (so CC, dodge, block, combo fields etc), let's NEVER talk about nerf of anything that's part of said tutorial.

    As someone said earlier in this thread, an issue that I'm willing to accept is that a lot of these "fights" that teaches these mechanics are found in LS3... which is locked behind gems.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    @Coulter.2315 said:
    I am all for including break bar tutorials but it is ludicrous to ask a boss fight in the second expansion(!!) to not have a break bar mechanic until you get that tutorial. Keeping the entire production of content at nooby level for a 5 year old game is just insulting to everyone, it creates boring fights for veterans and makes newer players out to be idiots who cannot pick up new mechanics.

    Fights with mechanics improve player skill and also check to see if you should be allowed to progress, you didn't get to kill Ganon without completing the Water Temple and you shouldn't be allowed to kill Balthazar without understanding what a break bar is.

    Never said that the eater of souls shouldn't have a breakbar. In fact, i've stated multiple times throughout various threads that the only nerf needed was to extend the breakbar duration of the leap before the swirling lifesteal vortex to a few seconds, you wouldn't even have to change the health regen numbers. I understand the importance of having mechanically interesting fights, I agree with having mechanically interesting fights, all I thought was needed was to extend the breakbars. Preventing ranger pets from adding additional health regen was a good move too, since the devs shouldn't demand that rangers play soulbeast for a single fight, it's not that I think buildcraft isn't important, I just think with ranger pets you'd be limiting buildcraft for a single fight to extreme methods where other classes wouldn't be asked to do such. I could argue either way for minions being immune to the lifesteal health regen but I do lean slightly against giving minions immunity simply because minions aren't a core mechanic where ranger pets are, and thus different skills can be used in place of minions. I do agree that the nerf to the life regen was unnecessary.

    EDIT: What I mean is, after a tutorial is introduced, we can then start asking devs for even more interesting fights, something that could then lead to eventual raid like mechanics in personal story missions a couple of expansions down the line. The devs have started to do this kind of stuff already with season 3, but they wouldn't have to be as restrained with it's implementation in the future because a tutorial would go a long way to help.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Rhanoa.3960Rhanoa.3960 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.
    You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.
    I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

    There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.
    Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

    Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

    How condescending.

    It's not like a recreational sport, because while there is interaction with other players, communication with those players is not essential for the core aspects of the game. Without the requirement of communication to play through the game, it's then unreasonable to assume that a player will pick up all the ins and outs of the game. With cooking, you can try it out on your own, you can eventually learn what works and what doesn't, but sometimes you'll just adapt to your own tastes and figure out how some bits work. That doesn't mean you'll turn out a professional chef, and the vast majority of people don't. Giving classes at least puts the expectation that everyone is on the same level. If they then decide not to use their skills as taught, then the onus is on them. However, picking up a random group of strangers, tossing them into the ironchef competition and expecting them all to cook like master chefs is exactly as kitten as it sounds. Having a tutorial to explain the game mechanics at least puts the onus on the players to learn about the game mechanics using the tools available within the game, most players don't really look for outside help unless they are really dedicated to the game, but players should also not be required to look outside of the game to be taught how to play, nor should it fall on the players shoulders to learn basic mechanics of the game by asking from others. The game itself should teach how to play, and it's a major failing of this game to expect players, old and new, to simply know everything about the game. Breakbars for example are something that still have no tutorial to truly teach what they are and how to break them or deal with them in the game.

    The game absolutely needs to make a tutorial in order to assume that everyone is on the same page. As it stands, various people don't understand various aspects of the game, another forum user didnt know how combos worked until last year, and they've been playing since vanilla. Combos. Let that sink in how terrible it is that there's no official tutorial that goes through the mechanics of the game in even the tiniest bit of depth.

    We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

    Ok, I see how it is.

    Your whole statement now shows that you are not willing to make any effort to take the time and learn.
    YOU and I are still given the same informative tools to execute in game content.
    We all started where you are at, we were not taught how the mechanics work, we had figured it out, and some folks have taken the time to write guides to help out folks like yourself.
    Again, ignoring what is already available to you and myself.

    So rather make any effort you would rather have someone else do all the homework for you.
    You are playing an MMO, you can't play it without internet access.

    Break Bars
    Combos

    Please don't blame the connectivity, the lag, the game card, or PC. You and I are given the system requirements before purchasing the game.

    This is not a toxic attitude as my original statement has just now been proven otherwise.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Ok, I see how it is.

    Your whole statement now shows that you are not willing to make any effort to take the time and learn.
    YOU and I are still given the same informative tools to execute in game content.
    We all started where you are at, we were not taught how the mechanics work, we had figured it out, and some folks have taken the time to write guides to help out folks like yourself.
    Again, ignoring what is already available to you and myself.

    So rather make any effort you would rather have someone else do all the homework for you.
    You are playing an MMO, you can't play it without internet access.

    Break Bars

    Please don't blame the connectivity, the lag, the game card, or PC. You and I are given the system requirements before purchasing the game.

    This is not a toxic attitude as my original statement has just now been proven.

    I beat the eater of souls pre nerf first try without dying, why are you giving me details on what breakbars are? And I said the game doesn't give you enough information. That information should be available in game. Why would you possibly have an issue with that? Having a tutorial explain basic game mechanics benefits everyone, meaning that more interesting and difficult mechanics can be implemented in the game, and we wouldn't have nearly as many "please nerf this" threads everywhere.

    I don't get what your issue is. Why would you even assume i'm talking about my own personal experience? I'm asking for something that benefits everyone.

    Truly, it really is highlighting how condescending you are being.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. I won't engage with bad faith arguments.

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2017

    A lot to respond to. Way I see it is that it wasn't awful, but it needed to be tuned down. It's a story instance. Who actually cares how easy or difficult the story is? The story should be easy enough to finish blindfolded. Add challenge motes for achievements as necessary.

    The game's a lot bigger than a handful of story instances.

    Those Icebrood Saga: Champion titles sure don't sound sus. End of Dragons 2023. Marshal stats are overpowered, plz nerf.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cuddy.6247 said:
    A lot to respond to. Way I see it is that it wasn't awful, but it needed to be tuned down. It's a story instance. Who actually cares how easy or difficult the story is? The story should be easy enough to finish blindfolded. Add challenge motes for achievements as necessary.

    The game's a lot bigger than a handful of story instances.

    If nobody cared there wouldn't be 9 pages about it (and other threads).
    I doubt people care about this specific instance itself but more about the message it sends to the playerbase that it's always gonna be easy.

    • For players who enjoy challenging content, they aren't providing a way to keep the original content (Caudecus, KotJ, now eater of souls, im sure im forgetting more)
    • Keeping the playerbase generally "bad" is affecting everyone during events, you can clearly see it during bounty trains with some specific fights that requires CCing or the boss heal... or simply standing in a specific zone.
    • PoF has no "hard" content and is getting nerfs to be even easier.

    People care for a lot of reasons that are beyond this simple fight.

  • I beat this easily with my staff Daredevil. It was so easy I didn't even remember his name until I saw this topic and looked it up. Probably because I do lots of damage and have tons of evades.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Rhanoa.3960 said:
    Ok, I see how it is.

    Your whole statement now shows that you are not willing to make any effort to take the time and learn.
    YOU and I are still given the same informative tools to execute in game content.
    We all started where you are at, we were not taught how the mechanics work, we had figured it out, and some folks have taken the time to write guides to help out folks like yourself.
    Again, ignoring what is already available to you and myself.

    So rather make any effort you would rather have someone else do all the homework for you.
    You are playing an MMO, you can't play it without internet access.

    Break Bars

    Please don't blame the connectivity, the lag, the game card, or PC. You and I are given the system requirements before purchasing the game.

    This is not a toxic attitude as my original statement has just now been proven.

    I beat the eater of souls pre nerf first try without dying, why are you giving me details on what breakbars are? And I said the game doesn't give you enough information.

    But managed to give enough information for you.. If you can manage it so can others and it is extremely condescending to cry out "These peasants are unable to conquer this fight, only I, the mighty, could prevail! Nerf it, lest they cry themselves to sleep over their inadequecies."

    Other GW2 players are gamers too and should be extended the respect of believing in their ability to problem solve - or at least google. Games should push you and make you better, and this "push" is a break bar kitten, every djinn in the desert has one!